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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-13-06 10:07 PM
Original message
Character Issues & Collateral Damage
"Johnson, Kearns noted, liked to impose tests of manhood, of which the most notorious was bringing politicians to his ranch and insisting they kill deer. John Kennedy, filled with deep distaste, had killed his deer after the 1960 election. I never heard that Robert Kennedy killed deer at the LBJ ranch. But Johnson imagined he had, or at least said so for the purpose of tormenting Hubert Humphrey: 'Bobby Kennedy got two of them. You're not going to let Bobby get the best of you, are you?'."
-- Arthur Schlesinger, Jr; Robert Kennedy and his times; page 674

Dick Cheney shot his friend in the face. Then he delayed the reporting of the incident. It's a character issue.

Perhaps he hoped his friend would be treated and released, and no one would find out. Hoping that you can avoid having the public find out the vice president has shot his friend in the face is, no matter how one presents it, hoping that it can be covered up. It fits in a pattern for Dick Cheney. It is a character issue.

Dick and friends tried to make it sound like it was the victim's fault. They said he didn't let the VP know he was coming up behind him. Please. The guy had an orange jacket. Then the story became that the sun was in Dick's eyes. You don't shoot anything (or anyone) you can't identify. But Cheney will blame his friend for his error. His friend becomes collateral damage, less important than poor Dick's reputation. These are serious character issues.

This may seem less important, for example, than Cheney's lying to get the US involved in the war in Iraq. But it is related. Just as Americans began to question the judgement of LBJ, when he ranted about, "Bring home that coonskin!" and shot deer from a concrete stand, as they were unloaded from a truck on his ranch, Americans need to consider the character of Dick Cheney.

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Inland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-13-06 10:14 PM
Response to Original message
1. The defense is actually more telling then the shooting, IMO.
Really, its just a fucking accident, even with booze, until somebody covers it up and the RW enterprise tries to blame someone else.

There's the lack of character. Can't think of any mistakes, even when someone ends up with a facefull of birdshot from the VP's gun.

It's the same lack of character that led to the balls out use of nine eleven, the swiftboating, the culture war, the cloaking of every single mistake under secrecy and out and out propaganda to cause a war and drain our nation for the purpose of feeding their consitutents.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-13-06 10:27 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Lack of character .....
That is absolutely what it is. He simply refuses to take responsibility for anything he does, no matter who else he hurts. Either he keeps it quiet, or blames someone -- anyone -- else. That is, as you point out, more significant than the shooting accident.
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-13-06 10:23 PM
Response to Original message
2. Interesting observance...
the knee-jerk reaction to any situation is to deny, cover-up, and obfuscate....so much smoke, how many fires?
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-13-06 10:28 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. It seems impossible
to find an example of Cheney being upfront and honest.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-13-06 10:27 PM
Response to Original message
4. His "Friends" Should Be Wary Of Him
and I don't mean that facetiously. This is how he treats them. However the accident happened, and personally to me there is a stench about the whole thing, they can always be sure of his cutting and running out on them. He leaves it to the woman owner of the ranch to talk to the authorities and paper, he leaves his "friend" in the hospital while he makes a beat for DC. Has the SS cover for hum, and not allow him to be rightfully interviewed by the authorities. You made reference in a previous thread to socio or psychopathic tendencies, how does this fit the profile.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-13-06 10:33 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. This afternoon on Fox
they did a studio re-enactment of the incident. Midway into it, they realized it was an error. It made it obvious how Dick was responsible. For example, they asked the woman from Fox sports who hunts how common these accidents are? She said they are very rare, as long as people follow the basic rules of hunter safety.

Then they took the stance that Dick needs to tell jokes in public about the incident. Oh, how I hope he does! Nothing would make clearer the callous nature of the VP. It would not play as well as the Fox studio re-enactment.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-13-06 11:56 PM
Response to Reply #8
16. Oh Yes He Should Joke About
shooting another human being. And I hope people realize that the only time he has the guts to pick up a gun and shoot is when he's aiming for caged birds that can't fly and old men who can't run or duck fast enough.
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Beetwasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #8
42. Heh! Funny You Mention That: "WH Strategy IS TO JOKE ABOUT IT!!!"
White House Finds Humor in Hunting Mishap

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060214/ap_on_go_pr_wh/chen...
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Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-13-06 10:32 PM
Response to Original message
6. Right!
But how much you wanna bet when this Whittington guy makes a statement about the incident, he'll say how much he loves and respects Dick Cheney. :eyes:
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-13-06 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. In a very real sense,
I hope he does. It would be a great example of how distorted the VP's inner circle is. We have just heard more news reports about Libby's being instructed by his superior to leak classified information. We all know was Cheney. The "mainstream" Americans in the middle are grossed out by that. Cheney wants Libby to take the fall for him. Now he'll expect his friend to thank him for shooting him in the face.
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Catrina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-13-06 10:33 PM
Response to Original message
7. Yes, and his lack of communication with the public, leaving it
Edited on Mon Feb-13-06 10:37 PM by Catrina
to others to cover for him, shows either cowardice, or a severe character flaw, especially considering his position, and demonstrates his arrogance and his disdain for the American people who pay his salary, however reluctantly.

I tried to imagine what a man of character might do in the same situation. He himself, owes the American people a statement. Maybe one of regret for having caused his friend pain, to show that he has some human emotion ~

But Cheney seems to lack the qualities that make a person 'decent'. The first time I ever saw him, he gave me the chills. It was an interview he did with a reporter during the first Gulf War.

She asked him 'does it ever bother you at all that innocent people will die in this war' ~ I remember I expected to hear something, even if it was a pretense, like 'well, of course, but we do our best to minimize civilian deaths'. Instead, his mouth curled into a twist and he simply said 'No, it doesn't'. Nothing else, just that. The reporter looked stunned for a minute, and I felt fear that this person was in a positin of power.

I had a feeling I can describe as 'ominous' when I realized he was going to be Bush's VP. Instincts are very valuable. I should trust them. He has not disappointed me ~ sadly for all those whose lives he has caused to be lost.

Imo, he is a sociopath ~ and he should step down, or be forced to step down. He is a truly dangerous man, I think.

His silence, and Bush's on this accident, has gone unremarked in the MSM. I think it is very strange that neither of them has said a word, publicly, about it ~ what arrogant cowards they are.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-13-06 10:39 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. Interesting.
I remember that I was at work when I heard Cheney was going to be on the ticket in 2000. I knew then, as you clearly did, that this was a bad omen for America. I consider Cheney to be one of the worst people in American history.
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Citrene Donating Member (231 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 01:04 AM
Response to Reply #11
17. It was also the first time that this "cabal" broke the "law of the land".
Edited on Tue Feb-14-06 01:08 AM by Citrene
A president and his running mate can not reside in the same state. They started breaking all the rules way back then. Cheney never should have been allowed to run as VP but they stretched the truth and created their own reality that summer. There was a lawsuit filed in the state of Texas but was thrown out or dismissed. We lost.

Jackson Thoreau wrote about Cheney's house in Highland Park and the oddities behind the sale of said house (purchaser and how it sits unoccupied) several years ago.

Criminals, thugs and thieves with a long history.

edited to add:

Thank you for putting it into perspective for me and Happy Valentine's Day to one and all.
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Punkingal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 09:21 AM
Response to Reply #11
27. I do, too.
I posted his voting record as a Congressman here once...it was one of the worst I have ever seen.
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MuseRider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-13-06 10:35 PM
Response to Original message
9. It is always
all about them and how they can PR themselves out of anything. One of the very first things I taught my boys was honesty, even when it is hard. It seems that Cheney and the rest of the maladministration have forgotten what their mothers taught them...oh yes, I don't think Bush** ever learned that one from Mom. Still, you can't get to be very old without someone teaching you that, they choose to be this way. God it is awful.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-13-06 10:41 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. One thing I learned
at work was to report a mistake as soon as I knew I made one. People will accept that you err at times. We are all human. But they will never trust those who attempt to cover up every error they make. Like the vice president can shoot his friend in the face and no one will know.
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MuseRider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-13-06 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. Exactly.
My grandfather was actually my very best teacher. He said to always be honest and people will forgive when you make a mistake, and you will make many. He also told me to be nice to everyone and they will be nice to you. I find that it works almost all the time. Very wonderful man whom I miss more than anything. He would have made a great President.

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carolinalady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-13-06 10:43 PM
Response to Original message
13. I knew you could find a way to make all this a thoughtful
reasoned observation, rather than the scandal frenzy we have all been partaking of.
Happy Valentine's Day.

:loveya:
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carolinalady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-13-06 11:49 PM
Response to Original message
15. Kicking for the class of it all.
:kick:
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LincolnMcGrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 01:05 AM
Response to Original message
18. K & R
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 01:09 AM
Response to Original message
19. 'Integrity is for paupers.' -- Tim Russert


And thus what such neoNAZIcon scum ultimately have in mind for America.
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libnnc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 01:16 AM
Response to Original message
20. Kick 'cause it's H2O
and 'cause it's the best analysis of this event yet.

:thumbsup:
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 02:42 AM
Response to Original message
21. Even the comedians are picking up on this character issue. It's
Edited on Tue Feb-14-06 02:50 AM by Nothing Without Hope
clearest in the hilariously funny but also insightful and biting piece by Jon Stewart:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
thread title (2-13-06 GD): VIDEO- The Daily Show-Cheney ....; SHOT
Comment/excerpt: Possibly the funniest Jon Stewart show EVER. And absolutely devastating to the WH.

It's time and past time that the US public wakes up to what is controlling their country.

K & R for H2O Man, who again shows the heart of an issue.


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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 08:09 AM
Response to Original message
22. Apparently Cheney
did not call Bush until Monday. This has not gone over well with some of Bush's advisors who are concerned about the toll that Cheney is beginning to take on the administration's popularity and reputation. Coming at the same time as the media has focused attention on what every DUer has known for years -- that Cheney directed the WHIG's attack on Wilson and Plame -- there is a small but growing number of republicans who are quietly suggesting, behind the scenes, that Cheney may be more harmful to the administration and party than he is beneficial. The question being asked is would it be better for Cheney to bow out soon, for health purposes, rather than face a growing scandal while in office?
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 08:48 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. Criminal !!!!!
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060214/ap_on_go_pr_wh/chen... ;_ylt=AsfIXOcn5GN3wJSqZTy3Itis0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA3b2NibDltBHNlYwM3MTY-
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 09:16 AM
Response to Reply #23
26. And what is their reaction to the missing stamp? Blame
the TX Wildlife people who should have, of course, fixed this privileged sociopath's paperwork for him.

This incident is the whole malAdministration in little -- and with no "terrorist" threat to distract people from its ugliness. That's why it's resonating.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 10:09 AM
Response to Reply #23
29. How :Civilized"
They sat sown to dinner while he was being treated. I notice they don't say why they're not removing all the shot, that to do so might be dangerous, that it could enter an artery via the neck.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #29
31. It's a bit odd
that VP Cheney views this incident largely in terms of himself. Not a good sign.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #31
34. The "Bird Shot" Has moved
via CNN, it is causing problems with his heart. Frankly I think this guy is in a lot more trouble than they reported. Truly, I wonder if he is going to make it.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #34
38. A doctor on Fox
said she put his chances at 50-50. Another doctor said he needs to be moved to a hospital that is better able to deal with this type of injury.
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madokie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 09:07 AM
Response to Original message
24. As always, a great observation, Happy Valentine's day to you and yours
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 09:14 AM
Response to Reply #24
25. Thank you ....
and a Happy Valentine's Day to you and yours!
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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 09:56 AM
Response to Original message
28. IOW He's a heartless, amoral prick that Dick!
I don't mince words when it comes to this man. He sold his soul long, long ago.

Happy Valentines Day, H2OMan!!! :hi: :hug:
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #28
30. Even with Donald Rumsfeld,
I think of the "banality of evil." But Cheney is the distillate form of evil.

And a Happy Valentine's Day to you!
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 12:06 PM
Response to Original message
32. Regarding alcohol ......
Several DUers have questioned if it was possible that alcohol was involved in some manner in the Vice President's assault on his "friend." In response, a couple DUers have posed rather rude threads saying "impossible" and even "shut up." (!)

I'd like to respond to that. I'll start by saying that in psychiatric social work, it is necessary to have a good understanding of issues involving substance use, abuse, and addictions. I have hundreds of hours of training, and decades of experience. Thus, when people have made comments on DU about President Bush drinking or snorting, I am confident that there is absolutely nothing to it. Of course, I'm not hanging out with George, so I can only guess .... but it is an educated guess.

Now to Dick. I note that this method of hunting is referred to as "Bloody Mary" hunting, not because everyone tips a drink while hunting (relatively) tame animals, but because it is fairly common. In the OP, I use LBJ as an example. His heart was as "bad" as Dick's. Still, he was famous for drinking while he was not supposed to be drinking, and known for speeding around his ranch in his pick-up, slamming down beer. One need not be considered unhinged for considering the possiblity that Dick had had a drink before shooting his friend. In fact, Ronald Reagan Jr raised the possibility on tv yesterday.

More, in terms of an auto accident, when someone fails to report one they caused, concocts a "cover story," hides from the sheriff's department for a day, and behaves kind of like VP Cheney has .... it almost always involves a person who is either intoxicated or transporting a package. It seems very unlikely Dick had a bag of weed or envelope of white powder on him; it seems worth considering the possibility that he had one or more drinks.

Dick has a history of DWI/DUI charges and convictions. Hence, to simply rule it out,or to say "impossible" is simply wrong. To say "shut up" is stupid. Sometimes when something walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and flies like a duck .... it's your 78 year old friend. Other times, it's a duck.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. Scott McClellan
is a farm-raised fowl.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #33
35. What Do You Have Against Farm Raised Fowl? eom
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atommom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 01:37 PM
Response to Original message
36. This is a great thread. And I agree ... even if I knew nothing
of Cheney's past, I'd find this episode very disturbing. There's no accountability, no attempt at showing remorse or compassion for the victim. If anything, he seems pissed that he's still being asked about it.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. The "magic bullet" .....
It is becoming a far more serious case than first reported. Even Fox news is treating it as being very different from what the Cheneyites first reported (a day afterward).
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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 02:21 PM
Response to Original message
39. I think the average American understands this on a gut level.
That's one of the reasons I've been saying that this incident could be the Big One, the one that changes public perception once and for all, stupid as it seems.

Also, Cheney has become a laughingstock, and the Puggie ego can't withstand much of that. All the little Puggiebots with their porous senses of self vicariously invested in the Administration are going to feel personally mortified by the laughter, and the result ain't gonna be pretty.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. Right. Exactly.
This is the type of thing people do understand. It communicates, as you said, on the "gut level." We need to place value on the ability of this incident -- especially the attempted cover-up -- to communicate the lack of character that defines VP Cheney.

Yesterday, Fox News was advocating that Cheney make some public jokes to help this pass over. They aren't joking now.
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im10ashus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-14-06 03:04 PM
Response to Original message
41. It is always about character in my book.
Without it we are nothing.

What really pisses me off is THIS Will be what brings him down most likely. Not that I mind. Whatever it takes to get these criminals out of the White House.
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