It's their own fault: The people on welfare NOLA

[Maine-ah]

NOT my point of view, but someone else that I have been aruging with. Here's the quote:

"The response was obviously inadequate, but I doubt anybody could have done better given the circumstances. The levee system should have been upgraded many years ago and wasn't. This catastrophe did, however illustrate how people who have been raised in generations of welfare subsistence and are completely dependent upon the government for everything are not prepared to fend for themselves. Move 'em outta there and fire the governor and mayor!"

Now, I don't even know what to say at this point other than they obviously haven't been watching the hearings. WTF is wrong with people?

[DemonGoddess]

1. Obviously,

this person has never had to go through having to reach out for help. Ya know, for years I worked, could find a job whenever I needed to. Then, I found myself in a situation where that wasn't what happened. I was unemployed for THREE YEARS. Tell me, how do you think I supported my kids at that time? My husband was unemployed at the same time for almost TWO years.

The person you're arguing with needs to remove the scales from his/her eyes. This person has NO idea whether or not any of these people he/she is lumping together couldn't find work, or had lost work and then couldn't find work to replace the work, or whatever.

[Maine-ah]

3. exactly

My father was unemployed (along with many, many other people during the early 90's) for several years. He ended up opening his photo biz out of our home. There was just no work anywhere at the time.

I'm just trying to figure out a very calm, and intelligent way to slap this asshole down. I'm still flabergasted at what he said.

[Greyhound]

9. No idea and doesn't give a crap. Of course once the "free market"

decides this POS is no longer of any use, how loud he will wail at the unfairness of it all.

[zanne]

2. There's a good reason for this.

Putting down poor people makes some people feel better about themselves. I think that's the name of the game.

[Child_Of_Isis]

4. They didn't get the memo

of the guns that prevented those folks from crossing the bridge? What the hell does that have to do with being dependant on the government?


"people who have been raised in generations of welfare subsistence and are completely dependent upon the government for everything are not prepared to fend for themselves."

You could say the same about our elected officials, but even more so. The average welfare recipent gets a couple hundred a month, the ones in Washington gets 1000's a month.

[Webster Green]

5. Regressives are trying to turn back time to the 9th century...

They crave the dark ages.

Religious wars, torture and oppression, dungeons, cruel monarchs.

Yeah, that's the ticket.

[patdem]

6. Honey, did this person not hear about WELFARE REFORM by

President Clinton? There is NO such thing as 'generations of people on welfare'. Welfare now is ONLY for two years...in that time you are expected to get trained, get a job or go homeless. Sorry that argument is so 80's..and does not hold water (excuse the pun)!

[Maine-ah]

7. OOOH, thankyou

pun, is excused.

[Flubadubya]

8. Maybe not watching the hearings... but probably FOX! n/t

:puke:

[EFerrari]

10. So, how would firing the NOLA mayor and LA gov help

the folks in AL and MS whose towns have also washed away? The whole Gulf Coast needs to be REBUILT.

[Maine-ah]

12. And it's pathetic how those areas seem to have been forgotten

by the media, which in turn makes us forget as well. Thankyou sfexpat for reminding us.

[SammyWinstonJack]

11. I'll just bet this person has no problem with Corporate Welfare, which

costs the taxpayers far more than social welfare, while giving very little back to society. What a compassionate a$$hole! And yet, this creep would be the first one in line for what he deems too be government handouts to the lazy poor, if his situation suddenly turn bad.

[mrcheerful]

15. Its one of those Reagan for sainthood types

who thinks Reagan was the savior of america. Funny thing about people like that, when they lose their jobs and can't find another, they are the ones at welfare shouting the loudest about not being the right skin color to get welfare. Every now and then you get to enjoy yourself hearing about these types when they complain to the local news papers about how life isn't fair to them. Then you find out that they were turned down not because of skin tone, but because they have to many assets. One such person I knew like that was a GM worker, got laid off from his job went down for welfare and was turned down. He then wrote a scorching letter to the paper about how he paid taxes for 10 years and he was entitled to welfare, how dare they turn him down. The day after his letter appeared it was reported in the paper that the reason he was turned down was because he owned a new truck, a new car, 2 houses and a 25 ft sail boat, that he had docking fees for and storage fees. Needless to say, he was turned down because he refused to sell any of his toys.

[mntleo2]

13. What About The Generations Of Rich People...

...who have received federal welfare literally thousands of times more than any other federal program uses of our tax dollars? in 1996 4% of our tax dollars was used for social welfare programs, while 8% of our corporations and 10% of our wealthy did not pay one cent in taxes. But ohhhhh, call the RICH a bunch of freeloaders who actually make the ills of the rest of our society (which they do) then we are suddenly BAAAAAAD.


My point here is that the rich have always gotten federal welfare, whether in the form of tax breaks, or other types of breaks, they have gotten it since taxes were excised. Almost9st ALL of these people are "intergenerational". I am saying, these FEW people have benefited from THOUSANDS OF TIMES MORE of our tax dollars than ALL the welfare recipients combined.

Less than 1% of welfare recipients received welfare intergenerationally BEFORE Welfare DEformed, or as the hypocritical RICH white politicians officially called this travesty of a bill: "The Personal Responsibility Act..." Furthermore, intergeneration welfare is only prevalent in places where there is low employment opportunities, and rampant racism, blatant sexism, where there are few educational options and even fewer jobs making a livable wage even exist. This kind of rhetoric blames the poor by saying THEY need to take responsibility for the ills of our society, while the rich deserve to live off it.

WHY DON'T PEOPLE CONNECT THE FREAKIN' DOTS ABOUT THIS?

Some of the middle class in many ways are idiots if they think it is just fine to fund Paris Hilton's makeup bag and trips to the French Riviera, and then say it is "all the fault of a poor mother" because she is living in a racist, classist society where she cannot seek education nor make a livable wage for her family. These are the same idiots who think low income parents should spend their time making other eltist (mostly) white men rich by working exploitive, poverty-expanding dangerous, dead end jobs, but that raising children for the next generation (who are at this time the kids in Iraq, for instance) as "doing nothing."

So somehow working for a rich guy for a minimum wage job is "doing something" and "better" than working within one's community and raising one's family. A kid is then less important than making french fries at the local McDonalds (who, by the way are being heavily subsidized for being so noble as to employ the poor and making millions off their backs). That. to these idiots, is "doing something."


AAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Cat In Seattle <---who will NEVER shut up about mindless classism

[Maine-ah]

16. Very inspiring post, my friend

and you know how they all reply to that, they always say "well then they should move". I agree with your sentiment of "AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

[classof56]

17. Keep speaking truth to power, Cat. Way to go!

I'm printing off your words for my "we know the truth" file. Just wish it would set us free!

Tired Old Cynic to the south of ya!

[Toots]

14. From someone who has obviously lived a privileged life

Compassionate Conservative. :shrug: always blame the victim

[Catchawave]

18. It must be a phrase from Rove's playbook.....

Every one of my conservative friends seem to sing that tune also, which breaks my heart. BushCo failed, afterall, news crews had no problem getting to those people, why not boxes of food and water?

[robbedvoter]

19. Clinton alocated money for the levees. W drank it (took it away)

The old bootstraps BS to justify selfishness and infifference....The "morals" of the "moral majority"

[saltara]

20. Here are some facts about welfare (TANF) in New Orleans

"... the facts, however unsettling they may be for conservative myth makers, are clear."

"To begin with, as of 2004, according to the Census Bureau, there were only 4600 households in all of New Orleans receiving cash welfare from the nation's principal aid program, TANF... That is not a misprint: 4600 out of a total of 130,000 households in the black community alone."

more excellent analysis in "Framing the Poor," Tim Wise, Counterpunch Oct. 29/30, 2005:

http://www.counterpunch.org/wise10292005.html

[pitohui]

23. and only people w. minor children can get TANF

that program cited by tim wise is the old "aid to dependent children," only people w. children get it, even if you have a serious disability, if you don't have a child living w. you, you're shit out of luck

getting disability thru social security is a long process that requires an attorney, several years of waiting -- and in the case of several disabled i knew -- the ability to move out of state because any other state will get the aid to you faster than louisiana

i knew a blind woman -- a blind woman! -- who had to falsify a mississippi address to get disability

it is easy for someone in maine to say people in louisiana are all on welfare, if they think it is so easy, i wish they would get their ass down here and show us how, i have seen people in terrible need unable to get a dime for years on end

[Maine-ah]

21. here's the asshole's response:

I said: it's obvious that you haven't been watching the hearings. He says:

"Yup, I've seen them and it's nothing but the "blame game" going on there. The best thing to come out of this is that the welfare cesspool that was much of New Orleans was at least temporarily purged of deadbeats who have been scattered around the country, soaking up the best welfare deals they can con out of whatever municipality they're now squatting in. "New Orleans will, at the end of the day, be a Chocolate City, as God would want it to be."--Mayor Ray Nagin"

[pitohui]

22. very difficult to collect welfare or disability in louisiana

to be honest i see little point in arguing with someone who is deliberately and maliciously ignorant but the facts are that there are prob. more people in yr state on welfare sucking off the gov't tit in the lovely phrase of the fascists than there has ever been in louisiana

it is v. difficult to collect any welfare or disability in this state, even for v. severe disabilities, while such programs may be considered federal, apparently there is state matching and this is a poor state, because the state finds every excuse not to give people anything to live on

the only thing we did have going for us was a large public hospital system, which was completely destroyed in a day by katrina and which we can't afford to rebuild

any displaced who actually received social services will almost certainly receive more and better services in their new locations

however, when your "friend" realizes that the lack of social services, housing, and hospitals in louisiana and mississippi means that the displaced relocated to his area will be there for months more, likely even years or decades more, i bet he will be singing a different tune and suddenly he will want every bit of federal assistance provided to relocate these people yet again

this is pretty much what houston wants and chicago wants and atlanta wants, they pretend it is about the right of return, but it's really abt no one wants the poorest of the poor and who cares if there is no housing or hospitals in new orleans let's just get them the hell out of chicago

sadly, progressives have actually been some of the noisiest to be guilty of this, i am v. disappointed in jesse jackson in particular, this is not what i would have expected from him

neither side is looking good in the "welfare" argument because most don't know what the hell they are talking abt in regard to new orleans in particular or louisiana in general, the counterpunch argument about the low numbers of people getting welfare sounds right to me, you would not believe the trouble i've seen seriously disabled friends have trying to get any disability -- and that is pre-katrina, some poor people i know are literally offered no alternative except hustling, crime, ripping off friends & family, etc. because there are no real programs unless you have small dependent children & even those programs are not sufficient to keep you much less the child decently fed and housed

[Wordie]

24. That's the talking point they're pushing on FAUX...

I had insomnia last night, so I turned on the tv, and since CNN and MSNBC run repeats or soft news stuff all night, I switched over to FAUX (not a channel I ordinarily watch).

There was a panel discussion in which the idea of "personal responsibility" was being trumpeted. One guy even said something like this (paraphrased): "If you spend all your money, then when a storm hits, all you're gonna be able to do is climb on the roof."

Jeez! These guys are so out of touch. When people are poor, they often struggle just to make the rent or house payment, and get dinner on the table for their families. Health insurance is typically out of the question. But they should have been able to save enough to take care of their own needs in the greatest natural disaster this country has ever known???

Yet I'm sure there are many that just take those talking points and run with them, never thinking the situation through. Looks like the person with whom you've been talking is one of those. :(

[Devlzown]

25. It never ceases to amaze me how so many complain

about the government helping people through a catastrophe. Why do they think we have a government? Our states are combined together for many reasons, but one of the most important of those reasons is our power is much greater if we are united than if we were fifty different countries. So when there is an earthquake in California, floods in West Virginia, or hurricanes on the Gulf Coast, the rest of the country is there to help the victims. Whether or not one likes the victims of a tragedy does not matter. We're all Americans and we all deserve a chance to get our lives back together with the help of our fellow citizens.

[DanCa]

26. My good Christian sister says the same thing...

I guess she glossed over the part where Jesus' says "blessed are the poor."

[Gormy Cuss]

27. Ask the moron how it is that so many of "those people" owned homes?

and worked at jobs that kept them surviving until their heads were literally under water. Except for skin color many of those in the flooded areas are no different than the independent, hard working folk of rural Maine and that arse ought to see the similarity.

On edit: please remember Maine-ah, I'm a Maine-ah too. I know there are a lot of people who qualify as very poor in Maine who are proud that they are getting by. They have more in common with many displaced by Katrina than they might think if they just listen to talk radio and Fox News.

[frustrated_lefty]

28. Couple of thoughts

Before saying much of anything, give your debate partner a big, heartfelt "FU" from my wife, kids and myself. Regarding his remarks (in quotation):

"The response was obviously inadequate, but I doubt anybody could have done better given the circumstances."

It requires a deliberate refusal to engage one's imagination in order to arrive at such doubts. Given the authority, what might a person have done to improve upon the situation?

Appoint a competent head to FEMA?
Sent more rescue helicopters, operating night and day?
Not flown in for the photo opportunity and thereby brought the evacuation process within the airport to a grinding halt?
Do something with umpteen thousand trailerhomes instead of leaving them unused?
Not created some bizarro make your brain melt bureaucracy that requires evacuees be REJECTED by SBA BEFORE they can have their application considered by FEMA? 6 months later, we're still waiting on SBA.

Hell, it would have been cheaper and more efficient to simply cut each evacuee a check for $50,000 and told us to "fly away, be free." Instead, we have a bureaucracy that doesn't work run by imbeciles, incompetents and crooks while people who've lost everything are left homeless on the streets. The most appropriate image which never occurred during this entire fiasco would have been Bush, standing with that idiot smirk of his, in Jackson Square with "Mission Accomplished" emblazoned behind his "compassionate" conservative ass.

"This catastrophe did, however illustrate how people who have been raised in generations of welfare subsistence and are completely dependent upon the government for everything are not prepared to fend for themselves."

This statement has the dulcet tone of a person born with a silver spoon in his mouth. That aside, "fend for themselves?" First of all, these people SURVIVED. A guy next to me in the shelter was forced into his attic. He chopped through the roof with an ax, lifted his two children through the hole to the roof and, by the time he climbed up himself, discovered they had both been blown away by the storm. Nothing the government did helped this man, nothing the government does is likely to ever help this man. I compare the reality of that man's experience with the kneejerk posturing of morally bankrupt cretins who themselves don't know the value of an honest day's work, much less have the experience of fending for their lives, and strive to retain clarity. Some days it's more difficult than others.

For myself, I got to experience the joy of being hunted through the flooded streets by a gang of looters aiming to rape and murder me, of hiding submerged for hours behind shrubbery until nightfall, wondering the entire time if my 3 children were safe and what would happen to them if I couldn't return to them. My family is fortunate. We survived.

These people who have survived have lost everything and are still surviving. Anyone under the illusion that this is a simple thing or is readily accomplished with the virtues of perserverance and a sense of personal responsibility ought to give it a try themselves. Otherwise, they're simply chattering in the cheap seats, making noise about something they lack the capacity to grasp.

-fl