I am getting so tired of hearing how crazy the Muslims are

[sasha031]

with the burning down of Embassy's...I do not mean on DU, people outside DU, they see the images and hear the rhetoric involved. We have our own fundamentalist trying to bring on the rapture.

:tinfoilhat: I have a theory that the cartoons were planted to provoke rage so that the masses will see that bombing Iran will be the only thing to do.

[mzteris]

1. Provocation

is a tool of the powerful designed to justify the actions they want to take.

Like if you want to pummel your little brother, you tease him about his "girlfriend" or secretly pull his hair, or tell his friends that he wets the bed. When the little bro "LOSES IT" and goes after you, you can sweetly smile as you tell mom, "BUT he attacked ME! I HAD to defend myself!!"

[sasha031]

7. yes the would be the behavior of a Borderline Personality Disorder

who would of ever thought they would use it in foreign policy:sarcasm:

[breakfastofchampions]

42. except in reality

It was an exercise in Free speech by the Newspapers and the Muslims CHOSE to collectively act like little unruly children.

[madmark]

2. im tired of watching muslims burn down embassys

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

5. I am too

because the way the media tweeks it makes it appear that all Muslims support such actions, which I assure you is not the case.

[Yollam]

27. This is a sticky issue for liberals.

Yes, it's true that not all muslims condone such violence. But the number who do is startlingly high. And a lot of the values that are prevalent throughout muslim cultures couldn't be more antithetical to liberal/progressive values.

I used to work with a bunch of Iranian university students at a pizza place. They were all very intelligent, nice, good-humored guys, which made it all the more shocking when they would all agree when telling me that it was perfectly fine for a man to cheat on his wife, but if the wife cheated, killing her would be just punishment. And to a man, they all believed that a wife should have to obey the husband's orders without question, and that of course the husbands had the right to beat her.

That being said, I don't think that these men regularly beat their wives, in fact they seemed to be gentle and kind to them, but the fact that they thought of spousal abuse as a right inherent to a man was shocking.

None of these guys were 'terrorists", but their value system was terrifying. The reluctance of so many liberals to even approach that seems like a weakness to me.

[BushOut06]

98. 0.5% of 1.5 Billion is still 5 million people

So even if you have only a very small minority of Muslims - let's just say 0.5%, one half of one percent - that's still a very significant number of Muslims who are causing trouble. And since they are the most visible and vocal, they get all the press coverage.

[Yollam]

116. While I agree with the point that the number of violent muslims is small..

The point I raised about many tenets of muslim faith and cultures being highly incompatible with progressive ideals and humanism is real, and too many liberals try to gloss over it, which is sad, since there are muslims who are trying to bring about reforms from the inside, but there does seem to be a tendency on the American left to dismiss any and all criticism of Islam or muslims as bigotry.

I don't quite buy into the "clash of cultures" framing of the right, or that Islam's disposition towards suppression of human rights (especially those of women) necessitates military action, I do think that we in the west, especially on the left, shouldn't hesitate muslims who commit or condone acts of terror, abuse against women, etc.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

3. I agree with you

Kindly remember that many of the places where Muslims are burning down embassies, etc, there is limited education and limited access to unbiased media, as well as a lot of poverty, etc. It is easy to exploit the situation. The mere fact that the cartoons were first published several months ago in an obscure paper and only now unearthed and republished makes one wonder why.

[sasha031]

8. " there is limited education and limited access to unbiased media,"

gee, that sounds just like here...

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

11. hee hee

you got it....I was thinking how much freepers and these militant Muslims are.....

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Greyhound]

26. The perception is easily defeated, other Muslims just need to speak

up and denounce these actions.

[fujiyama]

48. It's been haappening

by a few groups...and I certainly wish more would be able to speak out more unequivically. I know there have aalso been some prottests in the UK by moderates and I know thaht in Jordan there was a large anti Al Qaeda protest after a terrorist attack several months ago...

The only problem with thaht is that they are first of all also threatened by the fanatics, and second, most Muslims, like all other people, would rather just lead a normal comfortable life, maintaining aa job, raising a family and kids...

[Roho]

85. hmm

Where would you like them to speak?

Fox news? cnn? NYT?

Did you see the 2000 mosques denouncing the violence? Or did you only get shown the extremists?

[Greyhound]

100. Since there are something like 1.2 billion Muslims on the planet

I'm sure they can get as much press as they need. BTW I don't watch any amerikan 'news', and rarely read it either. I like the Canadian media best, and I don't see much overt censorship there, although I'm sure it exists.

[Ms. Clio]

102. Maybe since you don't watch much "Amerikan" news, you don't realize

That most Americans don't get any exposure at all to any form of Muslim "press." So it's not exactly clear how they are all supposed to persuade you of their good intentions, even if it weren't utterly ridiculous to expect such a thing from the inhabitants of dozens of different countries who all justhappen to share a religion.

Hell, some leftwing organizations in the U.S. can't buy commercial air time on television for any amount of money.

[Greyhound]

103. No argument here, but it isn't happening internationally in any

meaningful numbers anywhere. I'm not saying Muslims are any better or worse than any of the other religions, and I guess that's the point. They have no special protection from offensive behavior. :shrug:

[cali]

4. I'm sick of it too.

And there's been enough ugly stuff at DU to surprise me. I don't know that the cartoons were planted in order to provoke rage to justify bombing Iraq, but what's going on now is definitely provocation.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

6. Do you mean Iraq or Iran?

I often get the two mixed up in my posts, and have had DUers ask for clarification. Wish we could call them Babylon and Persia so it would be easier to tell them apart.

[DemonGoddess]

9. I know a fair few American Muslims

and I think this WHOLE thing is ridiculous. People need to get a grip. The lunatic fringe of ANY religious group does not speak for the rest of 'em. This nasty habit of painting all people who practice a particular religion as being like the fringe groups of their religion has really got to stop.

[Burning Water]

10. "I have a theory that the cartoons were planted to provoke rage "

Sure 'nough worked, didn't it?

Why are the Muslims (some of them, anyway) so easily provoked. Even the worst Rapture-loving Christian does not use rioting, beheading, and kidnapping to bring it about.

The moderate Muslims need to stand up and be counted. Regardless of their grievances, this kind of behavior doesn't do their causes any good. In a free society, people are going to be offended at lot of the time. Look at us here on DU. Look at FR. Both have people who get offended easily, sometimes about very important things, sometimes about trivial ones.

But we still, so far at least, have the right to say so, and to criticize and offend our opponents without fearing they are going thrust a knife in our chest or blow us up along with 40 innocent people. Can't say that in the Middle East, and haven't been able to for decades.

[mzteris]

12. really?

**Even the worst Rapture-loving Christian does not use rioting, beheading, and kidnapping to bring it about.**

Just the occasional bombing and murdering . . .

So - is "legislating away" the rights of all non-B-lievers preferable?

[Burning Water]

13. Well,

it's not something you don't want to fight. But rights can be restored. Life can't. And what good to "rights" do a dismembered corpse?

Can't you have TWO enemies at the same time? I can personally handle more than that.

But to answer your question more directly, I would prefer to deal directly with the Christians trying to legislate away my rights than the Muslims trying to kill me or turn me into a dhimmi. I think they are more dangerous, and a more urgent threat to the Western way of life (see Europe). But, yes, both must be dealt with.

[mzteris]

14. I don't think the Muslims

are trying to kill you.

Don't you think that's a bit overdramatic?

I think they're trying to be painted as demonically as possible by the media - and goaded by buscho (and others) - into behaving "badly" so they can all point and go "SEE?? They want to kill you!" (and you bought it.)

[Burning Water]

15. I don't think

they're trying to kill me, personally. Just random western Europeans, Americans, and Jews. No, I think the evidence indicates that it is not "over dramatic".

It is hardly bushco's fault that they can be goaded so easily. He may take advantage of it, sure, but they are responsible for their own behavior, not Bush's.

I prefer evidence to ideology, even my own, and much as I hate to admit it, I think there is something seriously wrong in much of the Muslim world.

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Burning Water]

18. Oh, please!!

I have not included all Muslims in one pot! To say so is a flat out untruth. And calling people racist is a really cheap shot, I expect better of you.

However, I think it is right to criticize the governments of these nations who have done very little to advance the interests of their people. And the people who put up with it. Remember "Islam" means "submission". I think this cultural attitude may have something to do with their problems.

[mzteris]

20. from the root

"aslama" meaning to make peace; from slem - to be complete.

[Burning Water]

41. Right. n/t

[Karenina]

31. Please follow the links on this thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2089742

Then let's please do talk more.

[Burning Water]

44. OK, I've followed them.

We're still going to disagree.

I could go on at length, but let me say this. I'm glad to see some Muslims beginning to protest the violence of their co-religionists. But it is little and late. They should be encouraged in every way.

As for the comment about "this not being about debate", total nonsense. This is precisely a freedom of speech issue. The cure for hate speech is more speech, not repression.

[mzteris]

19. I believe there is as much

"seriously wrong" - as you put it - with the "christian" world - including members of just about every denomination you can name.

I fear them much much more than Muslims at this point.

Though, IMHO - all religions - Christian, Muslim, Jewish - should all just get thee to a nunnery, synagogue, mosque, church, temple, and pray for their own souls and forgiveness for how they have completely subverted the intent of God they "serve".



"You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image, when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do." Anne Lamott

[Burning Water]

46. But only

Muslim's, not all of them, but enough given there numbers, have been indulging in terrorism of innocent people for the last 50 years.

In other religions, it's sporadic. Even the Irish have more or less stopped.

[mzteris]

55. you're joking, right?

**Muslim's, not all of them, but enough given there numbers, have been indulging in terrorism of innocent people for the last 50 years.**

What do you call the illegal invasion of Iraq but an act of terrorism?

[Burning Water]

56. War, illegal

immoral, unnecessary, but war.

[mzteris]

78. NO -

a terrorist act.

Period.

(wait, need to add - a terrorist act by a sniveling coward and his cohorts.)

[ButterflyBlood]

63. An unjust and wrong war, but not terrorism

Look up the definition of terrorism. Things such as the Iraq war, the Japanese bombing of Pearl Harbor, Saddam's gassing of the Kurds, and Hitler's invasion of Poland certainly were wrong, but they weren't terrorism.

Furthermore, that doesn't excuse the terrorism by Muslims either.

[mzteris]

79. You might want to rethink your position

ter·ror·ism (tĕr'ə-rĭz'əm)
n.
The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.

[Roho]

87. wow

I'm stunned by the islamophobia here.

Might is right. We aren't terrorists because we have smart bombs.

Those poor "extremists" are terrorists because all they have are dynamite, nails, and a few rocks to defend themselves or promote their cause.

I love it when I see posters say things like...
"Muslims need to control their tempers"

And then when called on their overt racism they say...
"Of course I'm not talking about all muslims, It's just that the calm ones need to speak up"

It's as if cnn/fox/nbc/afp/ap/Reuters et al would let them disrupt the "if it bleeds it leads" profit model.

[mzteris]

91. You, too?

I'm really wondering what rock they're all crawling out from under. Who knew so many du'ers were anti-muslim?

disheartening, isn't it?

[Name removed]

94. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

95. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Roho]

99. as i posted in another thread

this is how i'm explaining it.

The thing that drives me crazy is watching the Dem's try and out politic the repubs on this. It seems clear the Dem leadership thinks that the US couldn't invade Iran because of the resources already used or deployed in Iraq. They seem to think that the best way to show the moron swing voter they are tough on defense is to make Iran look like a huge threat then blame bush's Iraq policy on his inability to deal with it.

If this attitude was only present here on DU I'd think it was a site phenomenon, but sadly I've seen it on several so called progressive forums.

Not surprisingly however, from my experience this progressive islamophobia is limited to American progressive sites.

[wtmusic]

101. xactly--call it war, call it terrorism, call it what you like

it's people bringing whatever resources they have to the fight. And as much as we like to crow that we don't negotiate with terrorists, it got us to the bargaining table in Iraq.

I swear, some people expect al Qaeda to attempt a beach landing at Atlantic City.

[ronnie624]

105. Absolutely dead on.

And far to many are either unwilling to believe or emotionally incapable of realizing that the U.S. government and the corporate owned media engage in intensive propaganda campaigns in order to influence beliefs and change world views. Fools.

[gizmo1979]

30. They have killed before.

Who was the director?Ask salmon Rhusdie if he thought they weren't serious?It's a fucking cartoon you don't burn things down because of a cartoon!

[mzteris]

32. so have Christians

and Jews and every other religion on the planet. For less reason on occasion, I'm sure.

Or do you think "GOD BLESS AMERICA" (used in conjunction with support of the invasion of Iraq) ISN'T a "religious statement"?

[gizmo1979]

52. It's a cartoon.

[ButterflyBlood]

62. Yes, plenty of people have done stupid things before

That doesn't excuse current stupidty.

[mzteris]

80. I'm in no way excusing

stupid behaviour -

just pointing out other stupid behaviour - like positions that reek of racism/anti-Muslim - ism.

[sandnsea]

21. Abortion clinics? Church bombings?

The Schiavo debacle? Maybe you want to rethink your position on just what Christians will do in the name of holiness. Not to mention a war or ten along the way.

[Burning Water]

76. I can't really consider

"the Schiavo debacle" to be terrorism.

Church bombings? Did Christians do those? Maybe. Which ones are you talking about, the recent white Baptist churches that were set on fire in Alabama recently? No, you were probably talking about the Birmingham bombings which took place, what 40 years ago. Abortion clinics? OK, I'll grant you those. And yet the vast majority of Christian churches oppose these actions. It is somewhat different in the Muslim world, where suicide bombings are encouraged, for example. where the killing of innocent men, women, and children is encouraged. Where the state actively and financially supports such activities.

It is quite different for the "Christian terrorists" here in the US of A. The government pursues them like vermin, which they are. There are far fewer of them, anyway. ELF conducts more acts of terrorism than the "Christians", although I'll admit, they take pains not to cause the loss of human life. They won't always be successful, though, and they are dangerous people who should be in prison.

In case you haven't yet caught on, I do not support Christian terrorism, either. But my concerns, based on the numbers and ferocity of terrorists and terrorist incidents, and the fact that these are happening NOW, not in the distant past, rest almost exclusively with the Muslims.

[sandnsea]

81. "worst rapture loving Christian"

That's what you said and yes they do resort to violence. The bombings in the past were by people claiming God was on their side against racial integration. The violence against abortiom clinics has been way beyond anything ELF has ever done. 7 murders, 38 bombings, 150 fires, nearly 1000 acts of vandalism of some sort total. There have been 15 fires in the last 5 years and I challenge you to find 15 Muslim incidents inside this country in the last 5 years. I have no idea what Christians are doing around the world, but I do know much of what is done is done under the umbrella of government. If someone didn't understand the history behind the civil rights movement, I'm sure some wouldn't understand why African Americans didn't comply with the government. Extremism is what causes these violent upheavals, not any one religion and it is just wrong to say that and only inflames the situation.

[TahitiNut]

33. The difference between a terrorist and a "Rapture-loving Christian" ...

... is that the terrorist doesn't have an Air Force to deliver his bombs from 40,000 feet.

[FormerRepublican]

36. How exactly does Christian violence excuse Muslim violence?

They're both wrong. What you're saying is like saying it's OK for Bundy to mass murder because Manson did too. We should prosecute Bundy because what he did is wrong. No! Look at Manson - he killed Sharon Tate!

[TahitiNut]

37. How exactly does Muslim violence excuse Christian violence?

Tell it to the people who invaded and occupied Afghanistan in "response" to 9/11. Tell it to the people who invaded and occupied Iraq in "response" to nothing.

[FormerRepublican]

39. Tell it to the Spanish who were invaded by the Caliph...

...(and the Palestinians, who now want to reclaim that land). Tell it to the Sudanese who are being slaughtered by Muslim police in Darfur. Tell it to the women who have been killed in honor killings, and stoned for adultry or rape, or just plain abused to death. Tell it to Christians who have been killed in Pakistan, Indonesia, Thailand, Saudi Arabia, etc. Need I go on?

Americans aren't the only beasts on the block, and I resent anyone here on DU implying that they are. We are ALL human, and all subject to the same evil, killing human ways. While we Americans aren't angels, neither are Muslims. Blaming US for Muslim violence is not helpful.

[Ms. Clio]

50. And ask the 90% of indigenous Americans who disappeared

What they think about the Catholic Spaniards and the Protestant Brits who slaughtered them wholesale. Perhaps we should ask the 50,000 women burned as witches during the Middle Ages what they think of Christianity?

"Americans" is a nation, "Muslims" is a religion. BTW, I don't believe Thailand is a Muslim country.

This is an utterly absurd line of argument.

[FormerRepublican]

54. That's my whole point - it's not the religion, it's the actions that...

...matter. The bad actions of one person don't excuse the bad acts of another (is the Muslim or Christian label really relevant?).

BTW, despite the fact that Thailand is not a Muslim country, they've still had Muslim v. Christian violence. Put two chickens in a sack...

[Ms. Clio]

57. Actually, that's been my point all along, that it's not religion

But economics and politics and all the stuff grown-ups called academics and scholars wrestle with to describe and interpret and understand incredibly complex human events, and not the literal cartoon stereotypes that I see here over and over again.

Please provide a credible link (not a missionary site) to any info. on Muslim v. Christian violence in Thailand, which is 95% Buddhist. TIA.

[FormerRepublican]

58. You're correct - the violence is Muslim v. Budhist in Thailand.

Sorry - it's late and my brain has stopped working. Here are some links:

http://www.voanews.com/english/archive/2004-11/2004-11-02-voa15.cfm?CFID=28562383&CFTOKEN=95227956

http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewForeignBureaus.asp?Page=\ForeignBureaus\archive\200412\FOR20041223a.html

http://www.islamonline.org/English/News/2005-02/23/article06.shtml

[Ms. Clio]

65. Actually, it sounds like political violence against a tiny minority

Since Muslims make up only 4% of the population of Thailand. From the VOA article you provided, it sounds like persecution and even genocide is the issue, and not just "those crazy killer Muslims."

From http://www.voanews.com/english/archive/2004-11/2004-11-02-voa15.cfm?CFID=28562383&CFTOKEN=95227956

A village leader has been found beheaded in the troubled southern region of Thailand. Authorities indicate that the killing was in retaliation for the deaths last week of 85 Muslims from the same region.

Thai officials say the severed head of deputy village chief Ran Tulae was found by a road in southern Narathiwat province. The rest of the body was later discovered on the same road a kilometer away.

Officials report a note found with the body said the killing was in revenge for the "innocent" victims of Tak Bai district.

Seven protesters were killed by police gunfire last week in Tak Bai district when security forces broke up a violent demonstration outside a police station and detained some 1,300 Muslim men."

<snip>

Last week's deaths brought widespread criticism from civic groups, human rights groups and foreign governments. They accused Bangkok of heavy-handedness in dealing with the simmering resentments of Thailand's Muslim minority towards the central government of the predominately-Buddhist country.



I didn't find anything about Thailand in the Cybercast News Service headlines; be aware, as well, that CNS is a rightwing source and as such, not credible here.

Your last source also emphasizes that this is violence perpetrated against a very small Muslim minority.

I'm not sure how these articles advance your argument, but thanks, I previously knew absolutely nothing at all about the political, religious, and social situation in southern Thailand.

[ButterflyBlood]

66. I know an expat who lives in Thailand

He's actually what is often term a "sex tourist", but he knows a lot about the region. Basically, lots of extremist Muslims have been leading a bloody seccessionist campaign in southern Thailand for quite some time, much like the Philippines. But the current Thai PM, an ignorant crooked blowhard, quite similar to Bush, is just being a complete dumbass about the whole situation, and is just stirring up resentment and more violence among them. It's basically just both sides killing begetting more killing, much like Northern Ireland.

[Ms. Clio]

69. Yeah, right, just some crazy insurgents & "extremists"

Ain't it a bitch how they seem to be doing almost all of the bleeding. But then, you clearly don't know much about the history of Ireland, either -- it wasn't just a lot of Celtic barbarians dying for the hell of it there, either.

As for the political acumen of a sex tourist -- c'mon, am I really supposed to take that seriously?

[ButterflyBlood]

71. Here are three examples of seperatists terrorist groups:

Pattani United Liberation Organization - http://tkb.org/Group.jsp?groupID=200
Bersatu - http://tkb.org/Group.jsp?groupID=3569
Sri Nakharo - http://tkb.org/Group.jsp?groupID=3680

[Ms. Clio]

74. Well, the first group has all of 100 members

and on the first page it states: "politically moderate, focusing on regional and ethnic independence rather than radical Islam or socialism."

Doesn't sound like a "separatist terrorist" group to me.

The second group has sixty members and the third group is INACTIVE -- scary stuff, there.

And so what if they want their own country -- so do lots of Aryan Nations types here, & they worry me quite a bit more.

Hell, the entire American Revolutionary War was nothing but a "separatist terrorist" insurgency.

[Bridget Burke]

112. Actually, the Moors invaded Spain.

The various Caliphs took control later. In many ways, the parts of Spain under Islamic rule experienced high culture & tolerance among Muslims, Christians & Jews.

If we're going into ancient history, why not bring up the Crusades? Or more recent European/US imperialism in the Middle East?

The Muslims have a right to be offended by the cartoons--which were meant to be offensive. I believe that violent protest is not a useful response.

But dredging up ancient Conflicts between the Crescent & the Cross tell us more about you than you might wish to reveal.

[ButterflyBlood]

61. That ain't Christian violence

That's violence carried out by a country which is constitutionally secular and has no state religion, and is currently governed by a cabal of neocons who are largely non-religious.

Furthermore, it completely misses the point of the post it's replying to.

[TahitiNut]

73. "it completely misses the point of the post it's replying to."???????

Well, then it's COMPLETELY in keeping with the bullshit responses in this subthread which went over the cliff in the first response to my post at
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=359113&mesg_id=363250

I can't describe how little respect I have for people who can't carry on a discussion without MISREPRESENTING what others have said! Show me a response including the deadly phrase "you're saying" followed by a line of garbled horseshit (strawman fallacy) and I'll show you an inflammatory post.

[sandnsea]

22. We MUST print cartoons!!!

The fate of the free world depends on our right to print... CARTOONS!!!

Literally the stupidest shit I have ever seen in my life. And I have raised 4 kids, worked in a day care, led a Girl Scout troop for 5 years and even coached kids' sports. Never seen such a childish display as this one.

[WritingIsMyReligion]

25. Oh, come on...They can print their cartoons.

I won't say the cartoons were appropriate, but the "Muslim response" is just as bad...The whole fucking world is screwed UP right now.

This state of fucked-upness brought to you by organized religion...

:grr::grr:

[sandnsea]

28. yeah, people died for cartoons

Sorry, don't think so. Absolute stupidest bunch of shit, all the way around. Much much much stupider than dying for a gallon of gas; and I won't let my kids go off and do that either.

[CJCRANE]

35. Yup -

Don't know what I'd do if I couldn't read me some Muhammed cartoons in my newspaper everyday!

Just got so used to reading them Islamic comic strips, now they want to take them away from me!

My life will never be the same again!

[ButterflyBlood]

64. The point is it's important you have the right do so

Let's ban cartoons that make fun of Islam because some Muslims might be offended. Then let's ban cartoons that make fun of Bush, because some Freepers nmight be offended and anything that might offend some fundies.

You can't make exceptions to free speech, and expect to keep it.

[Ms. Clio]

67. Really? You can't make ANY exceptions?

Because you do know it is actually against the law in several European countries, and punishable by fines and jail terms, to deny the Holocaust?

[ButterflyBlood]

68. I'm aware of that and I don't agree with it

Let the Holocaust deniers spew their idiocy, no one sane will give them any time anyway.

Now if they were inciting people to start rounding up and murdering Jews, that'd be a different story, and that's typically not covered under free speech. Neither would inciting people to do the same thing to Muslims. But publishing silly cartoons of Mohammed is hardly equivalent.

[Ms. Clio]

70. But it's not just about CARTOONS

They were not published in a vacuum, and in fact the evidence suggests that the rightwing Danish newspaper deliberately aimed its anti-immigrant venom against a small minority population in their own country, a population already under pressure from tightening restrictions. The newspaper had previously rejected publication of Jesus cartoons as too offensive -- so why not exercise the same sensitivity towards a small and increasingly persecuted minority?

There are several reasons why they chose not to do so, of course, and they are all nasty as hell.

[ButterflyBlood]

72. So they were hypocritical

Freedom of the press means you have the right to do so.

Personally I didn't see anything wrong with the cartoons at all, and probably wouldn't have been bothered by the Jesus ones either (haven't seen them), meaning I would've published both. But there are better ways to protest the newspaper printing stupid cartoons than rioting and committing violence worldwide, and demanding censorship.

If a newspaper here printed racist "Sambo" type cartoons, I certainly would boycott them and any affilliated companies. But I wouldn't go burn down their headquarters, or demand the government shut the paper down.

[Ms. Clio]

75. In fact, the original response WAS a boycott

by so many law-abiding Muslims around the world that the Danes began to get nervous. The violence has been perpetrated by a few groups, and in countries that feel they have numerous additional grievances against Europe and the US besides just demeaning cartoons. And so far, it's only the demonstrators who have been dying, in places like Afghanistan.

The cartoons in themselves are not the actual issue -- the true motive for publishing them and then republishing them, in a rightwing, anti-immigrant newspaper, is what is ultimately the most important question, IMO.

[Skelington]

110. There seems to have been some good point made on this topic,

but I have to ask if you can tell me where to find information about the Jesus cartoons they declined to run, and...... that they declined to run them because they were to offensive. The Danish newspaper deliberately aimed it's anti-immigrant rightwinged venom against a small minority population in their own country? Are you serious, Danish rightwing venom tward muslims? Couldn't they just be political cartoons, that have hunmor that hits to close to home for the "minority population"?

Why is it so difficult to call over-reacting nutbags, what they really are? Only over-reacting nutbags act they way some have over these cartoons, and it doesn't matter if they are Muslim, Jewish, or Christian.

I hardly believe that the Danish newspaper has much to gain by attacking muslims, it's a series of political cartoons, not a bush conspiracy and not a covert operation by the Danish newspaper to flame the violence in Iraq.

[Lolivia]

111. Here's one link

http://media.guardian.co.uk/site/story/0,,1703500,00.html

Here's the relevant points:

Jyllands-Posten, the Danish newspaper that first published the cartoons of the prophet Muhammad that have caused a storm of protest throughout the Islamic world, refused to run drawings lampooning Jesus Christ, it has emerged today.

The Danish daily turned down the cartoons of Christ three years ago, on the grounds that they could be offensive to readers and were not funny.

[Skelington]

115. Fair enough......, however the newspaper did admit,

that the Jesus cartoons were not requested, I can't remember in 2003 what would have been as politically "edgy" with Jesus as the muslim cartoons are today.

The article does back up the rejection of the Jesus cartoons three years ago, so thanks.

I still do not subscribe to the Danish venom theroy, nobody rioted in the streets over the pedophile priest cartoons when they were popular. Political cartoonists are not popular because of thier political correctness, and arguing political correctness against violent rioting seems pointless. The bottom line is if the cartoon is not funny, don't laugh, hell write a nasty letter if it could make them feel better. But shooting guns in the city, and burning buildings are still the actions of violent mobs who take any oppoutunity they can to scare the shit out of the people who live around them, not offended muslims.

[Karenina]

120. Are you serious, Danish rightwing venom tward muslims?

For hot links go here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x377584#378206

Context is EVERYTHING

COPENHAGEN, August 4, 2005 (IslamOnline.net & News Agencies) – A Danish radio commentator has been charged with violating anti-racism laws for his anti-Muslim remarks in which he called for "exterminating Muslims" in Europe.
<snip>
A recent report by the International Helsinki Federation for Human Rights (IHF) also said that Muslim minorities across Europe have been experiencing growing distrust, hostility and discrimination since the 9/11 attacks.
Danish Muslims - estimated at 170,000 or around 3 per cent of Denmark's 5.4 million - sounded the alarms that much more restrictive steps would be taken by the government in future.
http://www.islamonline.net/English/News/2005-08/04/arti...

COPENHAGEN, April 15, 2005 (IslamOnline.net & News Agencies) – Denmark’s Queen Margrethe II claimed that Islam poses a global threat and urged government to show no tolerance toward the Muslim minority in the north European country, reported the Telegraph on Friday, April 15.
“We have to show our opposition to Islam and we have to, at times, run the risk of having unflattering labels placed on us because there are some things for which we should display no tolerance,” the queen said in an official biography published on Thursday, April 14.
http://islamonline.net/English/News/2005-04/15/article0...


WASHINGTON, September 8 (IslamOnline & News Agencies) – In an article published in the Canadian newspaper the National Post, two Danish politicians said that they were offended by the way integration problems in Denmark were portrayed in an article written by authors Daniel Pipes and Lars Hedegaard.
<snip>
According to the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR), Pipes has throughout his career exhibited troubling bigotry toward Muslims and Islam. As early as 1983, even an otherwise positive Washington Post book review noted that Pipes displays "a disturbing hostility to contemporary Muslims...he professes respect for Muslims but is frequently contemptuous of them," CAIR said on their website.
Recently, Pipes questioned the origins of the Quran, Islam's revealed text, and questioned whether the Prophet Muhammad ever existed. According to Pipes, the night journey of the Prophet Muhammad from Mecca to Jerusalem referred to in the Quran (17:1) never occurred.
Pipes also displays a racist's distaste for Muslim immigrants who "wish to import the customs of the Middle East and South Asia." (Los Angeles Times, 7/22/99) For Pipes, this sort of raw bigotry is nothing new.
In 1990, he said: "Western European societies are unprepared for the massive immigration of brown-skinned peoples cooking strange foods and maintaining different standards of hygiene...All immigrants bring exotic customs and attitudes, but Muslim customs are more troublesome than most." (National Review, 11/19/90).
http://www.islamonline.net/English/News/2002-09/08/arti...

By BOUTHAINA SHAABAN
Oustside View Commentator
DAMASCUS, Syria, Feb. 6 (UPI)

Denmark has become the country heading the spear of hatred against Islam and Muslims. In the 1990s, the Danish Popular Party considered Muslims in Denmark -- 4 percent of the population -- a "troubling problem." After Sept. 11, other Danish parties started sharing the same concern, and talking against "Muslims in Denmark" became a tool in election campaigns. The media started focusing on emigrant problems and accused Muslims of "violence" and "extremism." Even the queen herself joined the choir and expressed worry over the problems that her "Muslim" subjects represented.

A Danish Popular Party candidate in Copenhagen, Luis Ferivrette described Danish Muslims as "cancerous disease in the Danish society." The Party's spokesperson, Martin Henriksen, said that "Islam, since its beginning, has been a terrorist movement," and he warned against allowing Danish Muslims candidacy to the parliament or city councils. Henriksen describes Danish Muslim converts as "moral criminals" and prides in the fact that "criticizing Islam is the official policy of (his) Party." Within this context, the cartoon contest organized by Yandposten came as a natural result.
http://www.upi.com/InternationalIntelligence/view.php?S...

Research courtesy of DulceDecorum

[Atlas Mugged]

23. Yellow Journalism

Look it up on Wikipedia. Oh, here, I'll do it for you:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_journalism

Great article on Moral Panic, too:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_panic

[CJCRANE]

34. Atlas Mugged, you've hit the nail on the head!

I have never seen so many hysterical posts as in the last few days:

"Aaaghh! The Muslims are coming!"
"They want to kill us all!"
"It's the end of Western Civilization!"

It's true there are protests and riots in a few countries and a handful of people have died. It's very sad.

But it's not the end of the world. Those Afghani peasants aren't going to swim across the ocean and start censoring American cartoons.

Some people really need to get a grip of themselves.

[WritingIsMyReligion]

24. I'm tired of it, and I wish they'd stop.

Burning embassies accomplishes nothing except pissing off the Danes.

*sigh*

[gizmo1979]

29. It is a bit extreme don't you think.

We have our zealots but man it seems like they have a whole bunch.Why violence?The exact thing the cartoons were trying to spur debate on.I'm for free speech,it shouldn't get you killed.

[Ms. Clio]

38. I am just powerfully reminded of the endless coverage of the looting in NO

And the disapproving posts here about "those people" and the law and order crowd here that refused to concede that two or three days without water might reasonably lead to taking the same from where ever it might be found. And even so, few people dared to make the openly bigoted and racist statements that I have seen here the past few days.

Nobody ever thinks about the context in which those cartoons were originally published -- the fact that Denmark has been tightening immigration and that a rightwing, anti-immigrant sentiment has really been taking hold there, and that immigrants and their children make up a mere eight percent of the population. Thus, a rightwing Danish newspaper deliberately attacked a small and powerless minority in that country. To add unbelievable insult to injury, the same newspaper refused to publish similarly offensive cartoons about Jesus.

Nobody ever seems to remember that mosques were burned and other violence committed against Muslims in the Netherlands after a rightwing politician was assassinated -- oddly enough, it's not just "those people" who are uniquely irrational and violent.

Nobody ever seems to recall that hate crimes against Middle Eastern people or just people who seem to "look" Muslim (like Sikhs) in the U.S. has increased something like 1600 percent in the past few years.

Instead, I read shit here that could have been written by Daniel Pipes, and it's fucking revolting.

[fujiyama]

45. So anyone criticizing

this violent streak in the Muslim world is a bigot?

There is something clearly wrong in the Muslim world and there is nothing wrong with stating this. In fact we must. While the West has done many things that are offensive, including invading a nation unjustly, killing thousands, and torturing people, this intolerance and hypocrisy is much older in Muslim countries.

You also faail to state that Pim Fortyn, the Dutch politician that was killed, was gay and strongly opposed many of thee immigrants imposing their cultural values on their society. It is difficult for many on thee left to admit, but some Muslims (not all) are not fond of women's rights, gay rights, or free expression. The RW haas used this fear in the past forr electtoraral purposes, but it's important to see how and why that has been successful.

Also, I have not seen one post that justifies violence against innocent Muslims. Every post I have read makes it clear that they are not trying to paint Muslims in a broad light.

[Ms. Clio]

49. There is nothing new about this bigotry

I could find countless quotes from "experts" on the dangers of immigrants and their horrible cultural values, starting with Benjamin Franklin stating that Germans were could never be assimilated -- in 18th century Pennsylvania, and working my way up through the EXACT SAME FEARS about Italians, Russian Jews, etc. etc. ad nauseum.

There is nothing at all unique in the current attitudes towards Muslims. Nothing.

[Lolivia]

97. Anyone pretending that violence is endemic or worse

in the muslim world than elsewhere is a bigot.

Saying things like "there is something clearly wrong in the Muslim world," or "this intolerance and hypocrisy is much older in Muslim countries" is bigoted because it's pretending that Islam, rather than extremism, is the issue.

There is clearly something wrong in the Christian world when the Christian god tells Bush to invade Iraq and kill 100,000 civilians. THere is clearly something wrong in the Christian world when "Christ's followers" kill gays or bomb abortion clinics. And let's conveniently forgot that the killing goes all the way back to the crusades.

But we know that's not really true, don't we? We know that it's not the "Christian World" but rather a few extremists that are doing those actions.

I don't understand people that pounce all over actions from a few Muslims as incontrovertible evidence that the entire "muslim world" is violent and wrong while they conveniently forget all the violence that other people - like Christians - do.

You can say that burning an embassy is wrong just like bombing abortion clinics or breaking windows at a WTO protest is wrong. You CANNOT say that those actions prove that there is something wrong with an entire religion/ethnicity UNLESS you are willing to apply that logic evenly and say there is something EQUALLY wrong with other religions (like Christianity) whose members engage in the same kind of behavior.

[fujiyama]

104. Who is excusing crimes purpotrated by the US?

I stated clearrly thaht the US is responsible for killingn and torturing thousands in an unjust war and these actions have inflamed many understandably. I think one of thtee problems is perception though, but tthat's not entirely it. As you stated Bush is a freakin messiahnic lunatic claiming he talks to God. And he was dumb enough to claim we we would fight a Crusade before he started his "War on Terror". Thhis is obviously goiong to create aa lot of paranoia and fear.

But there is somethign seriously wrong with many majority Muslim nations and I will not be called a bigot for stating that. It doesn't apply to all Muslims (and I stated that above as well). It appliies to a vocal and extremely violent minority, but they are also extremely powerful aand weild too much influence. That's what I meant by the "Muslim world" (which I admit is a broad term and does NOT apply to all Muslims). These countries are rife with hypocrisy and there must be changees made within to change them. It is distubing thatt theey are on the bottom of most indicators including tolereance, frreedom of speeech and press, gaay rights, and women's rights. These problems go back well before the warr in Iraq or beforer Bush took office.

As for Chhristian fundamentalists, I agree they are a major problem, but I find it ridiculous to compare jihadists with abortion clinic bombers. The latter is very disorganized and incomparable in scope. Also the hate crimes against gays is horrific, but as far as I know, it's not illegal to be gay as it is in many Muslim nations.

As for the term "Christian world", it's mostly irrelevant, thhankfully. Sure, the US can be considered a "Christian" nation, but the West in general has embraced religious pluralism and diversity. Europe has almost entirely turned toward secularism. No, it's not perfect. There are groups thhat try tto sttir up hatred (Christian fundies here and nattionalist xenophobic groups iin Europe), but their power is somewhatt kept in check (well in Europe anyways).

Ultimately, I have no use for either Christian orr Muslim fundies. They arere bothh freakin nuts. Christian theocratst aare definetely tryingn tto turn back the clock hhere at home. But until I see a widespread burning of studios, and newspapers that blaspheme them, or violent death threats against the publishers, or laws that punish a woman after sheh iis raped, I find it somewhat difficult to fear them exactly the same.

[Lolivia]

107. So let me get this straight

You have admitted that the US is responsible for killing, torturing, and maiming in the name of the Christian god, but the "serious wrongness" lies solely in the "majority Muslim nations?" Talk about being rife with hypocrisy.

If the entirety of the Islamic faith and the citizens of Muslim countries can be painted as wrong because of what a few extremists and/or their governments do, then the entirety of the Christian faith and all the citizens of the US are also extremists. We are extremists because our government invaded another sovereign nation and killed and tortured their citizens, all because god told Bush to do it. Every US citizen is responsible for the Christian fundies that are trying- in the name of god - to control women's reproductive rights. Every single one of us, by your logic, is responsible when fundie judges erect giant statues of the 10 commandments and then try to decide law based on the Bible. We are all responsible for every single judge that let a man off who killed his wife when he found out she was having an affair. We all hold the same belief, apparently, as the people who scream "god hates fags" and then kill gays - in the name of god. We are all putting the bombs in abortion clinics.

Every one of us is responsible for the rise in hate crimes against Muslims and mosques in this country. We are all crazy church bombers in Alabama.

You talk about being gay being illegal in Muslim countries - well, we are all responsible for homosexual - but not heterosexual - sodomy being illegal in most states until about 2002. Everyone of us is a radical woman hater because it was legal in this country to rape your wife until the 1970s.

If all the Muslims protesting the cartoons can be painted as extremists because a handful set fires - then every single anti-Bush activist who was protesting his last coronation is a lawless thug because a handful of anarchists stormed the police and set Freedom Plaza on fire.

So which is it? Either:

Whole populaces and entire religions are wrong and extreme solely because what the most extreme among them do, and citizens are responsible for every action their government does. If there is something "seriously wrong" with Muslims because of some extremists, and because of actions of their government, then there is something seriously wrong with Christians and majority Christian nations for the same reasons, as well as every other religion/country.

or

In every single political/ideological/theological group there are extremist who are violent and perpetrate harm. Every single one: Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, environmentalists, the far left, the far right, the US, Iran, etc. etc. And we admit that it is not religions or entire groups of people that are the problem, but extremism and fundamentalism, wherever it occurs - including this country.


Since you've backed off your statements that it is the entire "muslim world" that is "seriously wrong," you need to reframe your posts to reflect that it is the latter choice - fundamentalism of every stripe - that is the real issue. We need to start talking about what we can do about the global - US included - issues of extremism. We need to stop focusing solely on what other people do while ignoring or making weak excuses for what is going on right here at home.

[mzteris]

106. A voice of reason!

Thank you.

[Hatalles]

118. Thank you so much for your posts.

:hug:

[truth2power]

40. Not so much that the cartoons were planted, but..

that provacateurs have been stirring up the mobs. Getting people prepped for war with Iran.

In any case, those who are terminally offended by everything need to get a grip.

[nonconformist]

43. Fundamentalist nutjobs, regardless of their religion

Won't get any support from me.

I think the whole world is nuts. I want to move to Mars.

[Ksec]

51. Bingo.

Fundies of any religion are nuts.

The moderates of these religions are just as bad because they are supposed to be moderate, while 90% of them go on the side of the fundies when confronted. With moderates you have millions of people pushing the fundies wants. Just as dangerous

[breakfastofchampions]

59. Hell no

They have to get off my planet.

[mzteris]

83. You've obviously never heard of

Komal and Tur . . .

[distantearlywarning]

86. Amen, brother!

Can I get a hallelujah?

Fundies of all persuasions are ruining this planet. My deepest wish is that they would all just leave so the rest of us can live in peace. The rapture, sudden drowning in the sea of their own hypocracy, whatever, I don't care. JUST GO AWAY ALREADY! All of us "moderates" (read: the people of the world who are not completely fucking batshit nuts) are sick and tired of you awful people burning things down, oppressing others, attempting to force belief, and killing in the name of God.

[fujiyama]

47. I'm not going to argue

that the media is doing a fine job covereing this. I am sure they will use rrecent events for propaganda aggainsst Irran and Syria. Thhe administtration is using this aalready to their adavantageg.

We must remain ssteadfast though in both opposing another unecessary and unjust war and stereotyping all Muslims as faanatics, butt at the same time, we must refuse to give up free expression, including theh right to publish offensive material.

[Hosnon]

53. I'm sick of it. You don't get to burn shit down because of a cartoon. nt

[upi402]

60. religious zealots suck

[genie_weenie]

77. This has been orchestrated from the beginning

Anybody wonder where all those Danish flags came from? Who gave them to the rioters? Anyone wonder why a groundswell of religious persecution took 6 months to foment?

The leadership of several muslim nations and organizations used this situation to take heat off themselves.

We have just enough religion to make us hate, but not enough to make us love one another. ~ Jonathan Swift

I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires. ~ Susan B. Anthony

Religion is poison. ~ Mao Zedong

Anyone who can worship a trinity and insist that his religion is a monotheism can believe anything just give him time to rationalize it. ~ Robert Heinlein

[mzteris]

84. or

**The leadership of several muslim nations and organizations used this situation to take heat off themselves.**

the leadership of one very suspect cabal used this situation to influence events.

ike invading Iran.

[fujiyama]

89. I especially like the Heinlan quote

because he was the one that bet L Ron Hubbard that he couldn't start a religion.

People rip on Hubbard and Scientology all the time, but I have to say it was one of the cleverest scams in the last fifty years. Sure, it doesn't come anywhere close to the real big rip offs of Christianity and Islam, but hey it's only a matter of degree...

I always wondered why it was easier for people over a thousand years ago to claim they're a prophet, but now if someone calls themselves that, they'd be considered a crackpot.

Hmmm, consistancy certainly isn't one of human nature's values...

[Name removed]

82. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LittleClarkie]

88. The comment from the local folks was that they don't want to hear how

Muslims are not violent after hearing about these protests. Idiotic, I say. That would be like saying that because a bunch of people protested at the RNC, that means that America must be full of a bunch of Bush haters, so don't say otherwise

As if all the Muslims in the world are out protesting right now.

[lies and propaganda]

90. well, i definitely think those presiding in Arab countries

are extremists by any measure. You could draw 58475million cartoons defiling everything i hold sacred and at the most i might call you a motherfucker. Im sure as shit not going to go kill for it.

[MrSlayer]

92. And I'm tired of the "moderate majority" not doing anything about the nuts

If the vast majority are peace loving then they must outnumber the crazies by millions. Why aren't they doing anything to get rid of the maniac minority? Shouldn't they be willing to die in order to eradicate those who so tarnish the name of Islam? Isn't that their duty as prescribed by the Koran? The people that are causing Islam to be portrayed the way it is in those cartoons are the people they should be pissed at, not the cartoonists or the country who publishes the cartoon. Where are the Ayatollahs and Imams and other religious leaders condemning this minority? Where are the fatwas against the "extreme minority" groups?

If you sit by and let it happen you're just as bad as those doing it.

[Roho]

93. well

perhaps you need to research who is funding these nut jobs.

After doing that you need to list the media organizations that would allow these moderate voices to be heard.

Then finally you have to ask yourself why these organizations haven't reported that over two thousand mosques have denounced the violence.

[mzteris]

96. so by your logic

WE're responsible for bushco's invasion of Iraq because - so far - we've been powerless to stop them.

[Bridget Burke]

113. Yes, we are responsible for the invasion of Iraq.

If you believe the moderate Muslims are responsible for the violent reactions to the offensive cartoons.

[genie_weenie]

121. Isn't that UBL's reasoning for declaring War on the US?

His claim that all Americans (United Staters) pay taxes therefore we are all targets.

Actually, if you want to look at history, Wars and conquest have always hinged on who causes the most damage to the civilian populace of the area invaded, not destruction of the *enemy* army.

Wars are won by terrorism.

[Arugula Latte]

108. Religion makes many people nutty.

Muslim, Christian, Jew, what-have-you -- all religions are based on the denial of rationality and so why should we be surprised when crazy behavior follows, including the existence of Pat Robertson and people flaggelating themselves and the Spanish Inquisition and witch burnings and people waiting for the world to end so they can be sucked up to Jeebus.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

109. No radical fundy nuts of any kind get a pass from me

They are all very successfully doing their part to destroy this world to further whatever fairy tale they've chosen to embrace.

[pitohui]

114. you would not accept that analysis of domestic violence

I have a theory that the cartoons were planted to provoke rage so that the masses will see that bombing Iran will be the only thing to do.

every wife beater claims it was something his victim said or did that provoked him to uncontrolled rage

i am sorry but if your "religion" does not teach you how to control your rage and to treat other people with respect -- even if they GASP produce a bit of artwork you don't like -- then your religion is not worthy of anything except contempt and those who think it OK to riot, kill, and bomb because of a cartoon should be incarcerated in prisons or mental institutions, depending on the degree of their mental illness

if you don't wanna be called crazy, don't act crazy, only a madman would think it appropriate to burn loot and kill over some scribbles on a piece of paper

i have muslim relatives by marriage, those who are fanatics are cut off and not communicated with, why, because life is too short to spend it appeasing the crazies

muslims who are truly this upset by a few cartoons are ill, just as pat robertson and jerry falwell are ill, we need to stop pretending that it is decent and tolerant to refuse to tell the ill that they are ill, our tolerance of their intolerance will destroy the future for all

it's time to stop the enabling

if you get that freaked out over drawings on a piece of paper, you do not deserve my respect, and you ain't gonna get it, burning people as witches over scribbles on paper needs to go back to the 16th century where it came from

we need to call bullshit on the muslims who are all worked up about this

just as we do when it's christians getting all worked up abt nothing, such as the war on xmas

[izzybeans]

117. It's akin to saying "All Christians burn witches" or "The Jews got all

the money" in my book. The cartoons were planted by a publisher and a cartoonist. Both of which are rightwing assholes who if they were in this country would be putting on minstrel shows. The plant was for shits and giggles among the anti-muslim crowd. They aren't smart enough to have predicted this.

[kathy14-0]

119. If Christians were doing that upset over a Jesus cartoon

Pat Robertson would be having an operation prayer shield for his Christian soldiers and soliciting donations.

[Freedom_Aflaim]

122. Theres a couple solutions to this:

A) The people who are killing and burning could stop killing and burning
B) The Newspapers could stop reporting the killing and burning and concentrate on REAL news like who Paris Hilton is seeing this week.
C) We could force the newspaper to never report things that offend other people such as cartoons of people throwing bombs, because that might make people throw bombs.
D) We could just ignore the newspapers and the killing and burning, because they really don't affect us personally.


Personally, I think that Option A is the way to go.