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nam78_two Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 01:37 PM
Original message
Barack Obama is promoting coal and Ted Stevens is pushing for higher fuel-economy standards?
:shrug: I don't get it either?

http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2007/01/16/muckraker/


Coal reversal

Environmental golden boy Barack Obama is promoting coal, and climate-change skeptic Ted Stevens is pushing for higher fuel-economy standards. Is the Senate having a freaky Friday moment?

By Amanda Griscom Little


Jan. 16, 2007 | Among the barrage of energy-related bills already unleashed by the 110th Congress, one of the most progressive comes not from the newly empowered Democrats but from Republican Sen. Ted Stevens of Alaska, a zealous proponent of drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge. Just as peculiar, one of the bills that most rankles environmentalists comes from Democratic golden boy Barack Obama, the junior senator from Illinois.

Stevens flabbergasted many on Capitol Hill earlier this month when he introduced legislation that would require passenger cars sold in the United States to get an average of 40 miles per gallon within a decade -- a 12.5-mpg increase from today's standards.

Environmentalists could quibble with the particulars -- the bill ignores SUVs and other light trucks, doesn't move as quickly as many would like, and includes a caveat that would let automakers off the hook if the costs of fuel-economy upgrades were determined to outweigh the benefits -- but actually they're just happy that a prominent Republican is joining the battle to raise corporate average fuel economy, or CAFE, standards.

The importance of the Stevens bill "isn't in the details," says the Sierra Club's Dan Becker. "The importance is that an extremely conservative Republican and longtime opponent of CAFE has come out with a fairly decent and very interesting fuel-economy bill. His turnaround on this issue is a profound signal of change -- on par with Nixon going to China." Becker says he heard from Capitol Hill staffers that Stevens introduced the bill because he's worried that his home state is melting.

"By increasing fuel efficiency, we will reduce greenhouse gases," Stevens said in introducing his bill -- not a radical statement by most standards, but a startling one coming from a senator who, as recently as last year, was considered one of the most influential and dogged climate-change skeptics in Congress. "Sen. Stevens is for energy independence and he's for reducing emissions," said his spokesman, Joe Brenckle. "He sees this as part of a holistic vision that will serve both goals."

On Jan. 4, the same day Stevens introduced his fuel-economy bill, Obama joined with Kentucky Republican Jim Bunning to introduce the Coal-to-Liquid Fuel Promotion Act of 2007. Coal-to-liquid (CTL) technology uses a highly energy-intensive process to convert coal into diesel fuel for cars or jet fuel for airplanes -- an appealing prospect to the coal industry in Obama's home state of Illinois, but not to enviros and others concerned about global warming. Obama, who got a 100 percent approval rating from the League of Conservation Voters for his environmental voting record in the Senate last year, is now getting grumbles from greens and thumpings from the press for backing the dirtiest of all fossil fuels.

The Bunning-Obama bill, which would expand tax incentives for CTL and help jumpstart the industry with public-private partnerships, was first introduced by the senators in spring of last year. Back then, it didn't get traction in either the Senate or the media, but now that Obama is publicly toying with the idea of a presidential campaign, the proposal is getting real attention -- much of it unwanted.

The CTL bill "raises the strong possibility of increasing global-warming pollution," says Frank O'Donnell, executive director of Clean Air Trust, a Washington watchdog group. "Obama may be a climate crusader, but in this case he's marching in the wrong direction."

Obama's office seems taken aback by the criticism from the environmental community. It's responding by stressing the national security advantages of using homegrown coal to power the nation's transportation sector and talking hopefully about the possibility of making CTL greener. Says Obama spokesman Tommy Vietor, "Sen. Obama believes investing in coal technologies is an important part of weaning the United States off foreign oil. He also believes that through investment and innovation, we can make these technologies cleaner." Vietor pointed to ongoing research into sequestering the carbon released by coal gasification and suggested that similar strides could be made with the coal-liquefaction process.

Environmental advocates aren't so optimistic. David Doniger, policy director of the Natural Resources Defense Council's Climate Center, has supported coal gasification as a viable alternative to coal-burning power plants, but explains that CTL is not as promising an alternative to conventional gasoline or biofuels. "Coal to liquid is, in the best-case scenario, no worse for the climate than oil-derived gasoline -- and no better," he says. The best-case scenario assumes that CTL producers find a way to capture their carbon emissions. Problem is, none of the current CTL projects actually involve carbon capture. Without that step, the climate impacts of CTL fuel are far worse than those of gasoline. According to an NRDC analysis, a 35-mpg car powered by the CTL fuel that's currently available would generate as much carbon dioxide pollution as a far less efficient 19-mpg car that runs on conventional gasoline.

Enviros have been nudging Obama in recent months to retract his support for CTL technology, to no avail.

Vietor told Muckraker that Obama "is very concerned about the role carbon emissions play in global climate change, which is why he has been such a strong supporter of increasing the use of biofuels like ethanol and raising fuel-economy standards that would eventually save us 4.3 million barrels of oil a day and reduce global-warming pollution by 760 million metric tons of greenhouse gases." Vietor added that Obama supports a cap-and-trade program for greenhouse-gas emissions as part of a federal strategy to fight climate change, and that the CTL industry would have to operate within that framework.

Green reactions to Stevens' and Obama's bills reveal a tension between energy security and environmental protection that's likely to escalate in coming months and years. As the NRDC's Doniger says, "There are solutions to global warming that are also solutions to energy security, but there are solutions to energy security that go backwards environmentally, that make global warming worse."

Environmentalists want energy legislation that attacks both of these big problems, rather than one at the expense of the other. As strange as it seems -- and it seems deeply, deeply strange -- Ted Stevens has got a better start on this in the new congressional session than many of his Democratic counterparts.
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Reterr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 01:39 PM
Response to Original message
1. Hmmm...don't know much about Obama's
environmental record but this doesn't sound very good...
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OKNancy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #1
10. the above article says..."
"Obama, who got a 100 percent approval rating from the League of Conservation Voters for his environmental voting record in the Senate last year..."
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nam78_two Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. That doesn't have to mean that much
Edited on Tue Jan-16-07 02:10 PM by nam78_two
It would depend on what the votes were. It isn't super difficult to get a good rating from the LCV.

I mean it could mean he is terrific on environmental issues in general (I confess I haven't looked into his environmental record either) but the LCV rating by itself doesn't have to mean he is especially good on environmental issues. A lot of those could have been straight along party-line issues.
I would be curious to see what environmental issues he has proactively worked on, if any.

I will look that up later and post it in this thread if I find good stuff.
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leesa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #1
34. Coal in Illinois. It's one of his old corporate bits.
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Jcrowley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 01:44 PM
Response to Original message
2. Illinois
is looking to add more coal plants. Obama's looking for mor political clout. This leads to many strange and predictable bedfellows. And they're portaying it as kinder-gentler "green" energy "solution."

Changing our lifestyles, sacrifice and changing our economic models are off the table.

Come to think of it there's a hell of a lot that is off the table. Seems to have been swept under the rug.

When will folks say Enough!
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porphyrian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Well, he's not getting my support with shit like that. - n/t
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OmmmSweetOmmm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. He lost me when he voted to recommend confirmation of Condilieza.....eom
Edited on Tue Jan-16-07 01:58 PM by OmmmSweetOmmm
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porphyrian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #7
16. He's taken bad advice by striving for the middle. - n/t
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OmmmSweetOmmm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #16
24. Then he isn't coming from a higher place. If he hadn't known before about
Rice, sitting at the hearing, listening to Barbara Boxer, should have taught him something. He voted for her confirmation not for our best interest as a nation, but for political motives. We don't need any more politicians like him.
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Just-plain-Kathy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 10:41 PM
Response to Reply #7
33. Did you see him question Condi during the 9-11 hearing?
He let her slide...he spoke more about being proud of her.

Coal??? Wasn't Bush pushing coal?
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OmmmSweetOmmm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-17-07 07:52 PM
Response to Reply #33
36. Yes, I did see him question her and I knew immediately which way the wind was blowing
Edited on Wed Jan-17-07 07:52 PM by OmmmSweetOmmm
with him. I was originally a bit wary of him when the Repukes ran that lunatic against him, and his confirmation of Rice sealed it for me. I think that he's a
Manchurian Candidate.

And yes, Shrub pushes coal all the time........
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Just-plain-Kathy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-17-07 10:40 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. If the MSM is pushing a democrat BEFORE a primary,
Edited on Wed Jan-17-07 10:42 PM by Just-plain-Kathy
it's a sure sign they want THAT candidate to run in the general election.

The GOP must feel Obama's an easy win.


edited: to ad GOP

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Reterr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. Bye bye mountain-tops
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Sapphire Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. STOPPING MTR: A national priority in the 110th US Congress
Important info & good links here...

STOPPING MTR: A national priority in the 110th US Congress: http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Sapphire%20Blue/111

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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. yes, it is pretty transparent why he is doing this
Edited on Tue Jan-16-07 02:00 PM by leftchick
$$$$$$$
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nam78_two Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. I do hope Gore runs in 2008.nt
Edited on Tue Jan-16-07 02:02 PM by nam78_two
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loyalsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #2
22. I don't know about IL
but in MO it is a matter of badly needed jobs in an area where agriculture has declined.
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Blue_In_AK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 01:48 PM
Response to Original message
3. Ted's done a couple of surprising things this week...
I can't think of the other one right offhand, but I remember I was mildly shocked when I read it in the paper.
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nam78_two Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. Its bizarre
Edited on Tue Jan-16-07 01:56 PM by nam78_two
He has always been in the top 10 on my "Republicans I loathe" list (with Inhofe, Murkowski etc.) He has such a long record of anti-environmental policies, I have to wonder exactly what is behind this legislation :shrug:. It just rings so false....

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Blue_In_AK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #6
13. Say what you will about old Ted
he DOES always have Alaska's interests at heart, or at least what he sees as Alaska's interests. Maybe he finally woke up to the fact that global climate change is really doing a number on this state, that many of his (especially) Native constituents are suffering because of it, and that maybe it's time to do something about it. To anyone who's lived here for a while, it couldn't be more obvious, and he does go back a long ways.

Also, to his credit his Magnuson-Stevens Act protecting the fisheries has been a good thing.

By Murkowski, I assume you mean Frank, who after returning here from 20 years in DC became the most reviled governor in the country, even beating out that idiot from Ohio. We are SO glad he's gone. His daughter Lisa is much more centrist and is doing a much better job, I think - I was kind of proud of her questioning of Condi on the "surge" the other day. Of course, I didn't vote for her, and I was completely disgusted by the way she got her job, but at least she answers my letters.
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Rainscents Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Ted Stevens...
Edited on Tue Jan-16-07 02:29 PM by Rainscents
He is up for re-election in 2008. He is running scare what will happen to him!!! He witness to all his republicans friends getting their asses kicked!
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nam78_two Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. Thats interesting
Yeah, I saw her for the first time at the hearings. I don't know much about her except that she is as keen on drilling in the ANWR as her dad, who was certainly one of the worst. Oh well, good for you guys that she is better than her dad I guess.
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Blue_In_AK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. She has recently conceded that ANWR is off the table,
at least for now. What I've been most impressed about is that she hasn't been a hawk, she was very skeptical of renewing the P.A.T.R.I.O.T. Act, and at least according to her responses to me, she took a hard look at Alito and Roberts, although she did ultimately end up voting for them. Also, both she and Ted are strongly pro-choice. I don't think Lisa will be at all obstructionist with the new Dem majority...I'm not saying she'll vote 100 percent with them, but she's not going to be one of those in-your-face kind of pubs.
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nam78_two Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. Well thats a big improvement over her father then.nt
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northofdenali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #13
21. Uncle Ted has always supported the fisheries, and
the Magnusen-Stevens act is one that any state with major fisheries should get behind ASAP. And Stevens co-sponsored it beginning in 1976. http://www.nmfs.noaa.gov/sfa/magact/

That said, I was also surprised (but not astounded, he is up for re-election) of his call for higher gas mileage standards....... unless he has FINALLY given up on opening up ANWR.

Frank the Bank is still in Vegas, maybe, or Idaho, or Hawaii, or hopefully anywhere but here!
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Blue_In_AK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. Mr. "the Bank" is currently on a cruise to Brazil
and "unavailable for comment" regarding his last-minute pardon (without notifying the victim's family) of Whitewater Engineering Corp., a company found guilty of criminally negligent homicide in the avalanche death of one of its workers.

http://www.adn.com/news/government/legislature/story/8565550p-8459154c.html

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The2ndWheel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 02:28 PM
Response to Original message
17. "By increasing fuel efficiency, we will reduce greenhouse gases,"
Technically. Unless increasing the efficiency causes an increase in overall use. Which it will. Can't give an example when it hasn't.
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 03:01 PM
Response to Original message
19. illinois
has easily recoverable coal,vast amount of methane,and limited amount of recoverable oil. it`s all abut money and jobs in illinois. the state has already invested several billion in new techologies to recover and produce energy..

http://www100.state.il.us/PressReleases/ShowPressRelease.cfm?SubjectID=17&RecNum=5455
State of Illinois Home - IGNN (Illinois Government News Network)
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 05:42 PM
Response to Original message
25. link to LBN thread with another piece of shit bill he is co-sponsering
Edited on Tue Jan-16-07 05:44 PM by leftchick

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2690199

The new bill (S. 280) will gradually lower the emissions cap, such that it reaches approximately one third of 2000 levels by 2050. Those long-term reductions will forestall catastrophic, manmade climate change, provided the world's other major economies follow suit within the next decade. Like the 2005 version, the reintroduced bill controls compliance costs by allowing companies to trade, save, and borrow emissions credits, and by allowing them to generate "offset" credits by inducing non-covered businesses, farms, and others to reduce their emissions or capture and store greenhouse gases. The reintroduced bill, however, increases the availability of borrowing and offsets in order to control costs further.

http://www.reviewatlas.com/articles/2007/01/15/news/loc...


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Reterr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. That bill looks awful...
Co-sponsored by Lieberman and McCain...no wonder...
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. no shit! It shows obama has not a clue about the Global Warming issue
Edited on Tue Jan-16-07 07:44 PM by leftchick
aligning himself with corporatist senators like this for a shitty ass bill that gives the power companies YEARS more to pollute!

:argh:
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nam78_two Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 07:48 PM
Response to Reply #25
29. He is teamed up with other "environmentalists"
in the senate on this one I see :eyes:
Lieberman and McCain...they both like to go on and on about how "green" they are too.

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Morgana LaFey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 06:45 PM
Response to Original message
26. Icarus Obama
Gonna peak too soon, and frankly I'm relieved.
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Toucano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 08:09 PM
Response to Original message
30. Can I please get a fact check?
Does CTL produce fewer emmissions or not?

I have searched, but see conflicting claims. Does anyone know the facts?

Thanks
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. NRDC's Doniger addresses it in the OP
<snip>

Environmental advocates aren't so optimistic. David Doniger, policy director of the Natural Resources Defense Council's Climate Center, has supported coal gasification as a viable alternative to coal-burning power plants, but explains that CTL is not as promising an alternative to conventional gasoline or biofuels. "Coal to liquid is, in the best-case scenario, no worse for the climate than oil-derived gasoline -- and no better," he says. The best-case scenario assumes that CTL producers find a way to capture their carbon emissions. Problem is, none of the current CTL projects actually involve carbon capture. Without that step, the climate impacts of CTL fuel are far worse than those of gasoline. According to an NRDC analysis, a 35-mpg car powered by the CTL fuel that's currently available would generate as much carbon dioxide pollution as a far less efficient 19-mpg car that runs on conventional gasoline.

more info at their site.....http://nrdc.org/air/default.asp
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Toucano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-16-07 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. Thank you, leftchick
Sorry that I missed that. In all bold it was tough on my eyes. Okay, so I'm whining! LOL!
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-17-07 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #32
35. you are welcome
More people need to be aware of the hocus pocus bullshit the Coal industry is doing now. Have you seen the "clean coal" commercials? They are going all out because they are so afraid of any amount of limitations on their freedom to pollute with this new congress. The industry has a lot of money invested in politicians and I see Obama has joined their bandwagon. It is beyond sickening. :puke:
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