Unreal...Embryos were saved from NOLA Hospital while people drowned

[Horse with no Name]

WTF? This was just on MSNBC.
Talking about how the embryos were boated out and saved by the National Guard.
While I am happy that someone had a child that they wanted...but I cry for the already born children that were stranded in the Superdome and on freeways and in houses.
How dare they!!!:mad:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11497302/

>>>snip
Dr. Belinda “Sissy” Sartor of The Fertility Institute of New Orleans and the clinic’s lab director, Roman Pyrzak, had led seven Illinois Conservation Police officers and three from Louisiana State Police on a rescue expedition to the facility in flat-bottomed boats brought from Illinois.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

1. Madness.

Stark, raving madness. Undoubtedly, there is more money in embryos.

[femrap]

27. And I bet those embryos are 95% white....

I really wish I hadn't seen this....just makes me sick.

WTF is wrong with people?

[malaise]

107. Same bet here n/t

[tbyg52]

156. And 100% parents with money. nt

[Texasgal]

158. Can they tell the race of an embryo?

Just curious.

[Critters2]

175. If both parents are white, the embryo is white--or will be when it's born

So, yes..they can tell that two rich, white parents mixed their egg and sperm to make a white embryo.

[jasmeel]

2. I saw that story and I wanted to throw the computer!

Here's the best I can do:argh:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070116/ap_on_re_us/katrina_rescued_embryos

[acmavm]

Anything past the embryo stage is on its own according to

fundie logic (please excuse the oxymoron).

[Missy Vixen]

3. The already born aren't important

:sarcasm:

After all, the already born should have just pulled themselves up by the bootstraps and gotten out of there, shouldn't they have?

:sarcasm:

Nice to know that the National Guard could save embryos while those at the local hospitals were dying as well...

Julie

[tblue37]

37. Be reasonable. Hospital patients aren't wearing shoes or boots, so

they don't have bootstraps to pull themselves up by! The already born hospital patients should have used their IV lines the way Batman uses his utility belt, or Spiderman uses his web, to hook onto something and pull themselves to safety.

[unpossibles]

4. well, you know - gotta save those white people. Even the potential white people...

</sarcasm>

[Marie26]

5. But were they white embryos? nt

[unpossibles]

6. yes. gotta save those potential white people you know...

</sarcasm>

[Robbien]

7. Not white so much but the well to do

Only those with money are able to store, buy and sell embryos.

[havocmom]

11. BINGO!

Save the well heeled unborn and let the poor already born drown or die of thirst

[Marie26]

17. This story is just sickening

to me. How many people stuck in the attics could have been saved? Or better yet, how many patients dying at Charity Hospital could have been saved? Instead, we're airlifting the embryos of the wealthy while leaving living, breathing human beings to die. This country is so messed up.

[Jawja]

8. Yes.

A white baby boy, Noah, was born from one of the embryos.

[libnnc]

9. no fucking way.

What the hell kind of world has this become?


Stop it spinning, I want to get off already...

That just makes me want to slap the shit out of somebody. :nuke:

[itsmesgd]

10. I would like to officially resign my whiteness

I am 3/4 cracker honky whitey and 1/4 Muskogee Creek. I really wish that I could turn in my status as a white guy because they have made me so ashamed.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

47. Me too

[JitterbugPerfume]

12. this is disturbing on an even larger scale~~~~~

It is the "mind set" of a whole segment of the population

priorities all screwed up in a LOT of areas ,like when life begins, gay rights , environmental concerns etc.I could go on and on , but you guys know exactly what I mean.

[Gormy Cuss]

75. I know what you mean.

The fact that this family and others may have children from the saved embryos isn't the issue, it's the use of those rescuer resources at the clinic rather than where they were out of the womb people stranded all over the place. It doesn't sound like the boat just happened to float by after all. You're right, it's disturbing on a larger scale.

[me b zola]

13. I saw this on tv early this am and was livid

Made me want to scream to see this told as a happy news story.

While the NG was used to save rich people's frozen genetic material, poor/middle class people were dying by drowning, dehydration, heat stroke, and lack of daily medicines ie insulin & heart meds--and, AND--the entire time the USS Baton, equipped with the ability to make 100,000 gallons of potable water & medical supplies, was sitting off of the coast having followed the storm to shore in order to offer relief but was never used.

[Binka]

16. Looks Like The God Of The Rich Ain't The Good Of The Poor

Welcome to Disney's America.

[pecwae]

14. And they were so proud

of saving the 'tube' of embryos. It was unreal to see all the manpower dedicated to removing a stainless steel container when real live children, real live people could have used that help.

[femrap]

29. Did the article say that Daddy was/is

on the NOLA Police Force??? WTF? Isn't that using his position in an illegal manner?

[Caoimhe]

15. RTFA

The couple had gone through fertility treatments and already had one child that was conceived at the same time. They often make "batches" of these embryos in cases of miscarriage or if they want children later.

The couple had more to worry about than their frozen embryos, which you'd see if you read the article. It was only later that they found out that the workers at the fertility clinic had been able to save them. That would be their job. I don't get why people are so upset about this. Comparing apples to oranges.

Are we going to start mocking people for needing fertility treatment now? It was their own embryo, people.

[Horse with no Name]

21. Unsure if you followed the Katrina story closely

So let me fill you in.
Private citizens were denied passage into NOLA--even after bringing their own boats to save the citizens of NOLA.
In some cases, those boats were commandeered. In some cases, simply not let in.
Al Gore had a difficult time being allowed entry to fly sick patients out of the downtown hospitals.
Yet...this company had carte blanche to bring in flat bottom boats to rescue embryos with the help of our National Guard.
People were stranded in their homes, drowning in their attics and the National Guard was helping a private corporation rescue embryos instead of people on bridges and in the quickly deteriorating conditions of the Superdome.
If you don't see what is wrong with that, then I can't help you out man.

[Caoimhe]

22. Like I said.. apples and oranges

I know what happened in Katrina. I also know that a couple had paid for and received fertility treatment at a clinic and I just can't see why you would be so outraged that clinic workers actually saved a few canisters for their clients. Oh the humanity!

[Horse with no Name]

23. Oh the humanity is correct

It has nothing to do with the couple involved--nor did I EVER imply it did.
It has to do with the corporation that utilized OUR government employees for private gain while real lives were hanging in the balance.

[Caoimhe]

25. There are plenty of reasons to be pissed

about all that went down during Katrina, I just can't get all outraged about this story. I'm *actually* happy for them.

You're right, the blame lies with this administration, the greedy corporations and the miserable failures and lack of compassion from the top down, not this family. I feel like this entire thread is however a flame against these people who really were happy to themselves live through Katrina (they thought EACHOTHER lost for over 2 weeks). The rest was a wonderful surprise for them. Sorry if I can't see how their story means that these embryos were saved instead of and IN PLACE of born people.

I often find myself identifying with the struggles of couples unable to conceive, perhaps because that would be me, too. Doesn't mean I don't empathize with the other victims of Katrina and the terrible ordeal so many suffered.

[femrap]

31. So others (real live people) suffered

so the NG could recover embryos...and you see nothing wrong with this?

The selfishness and self-entitlement of some in our society has gotten way out of hand.

I wonder if Noah's parents are against stem-cell research? "I got what I wanted but screw those with disease living in wheel chairs."

Do you think Noah's parents ever look around and ever think about Population Control? No, they're just too selfish...it's all about them. These people are part of the problem. All of the unwanted children in foster care and these people think their damn eggs/sperm are so fucking important.

Me Me Me Me Me Me Me Me Me.....that is what this * Administration teaches our society.

[Caoimhe]

35. Wow, do you have children?

[Kerrytravelers]

135. How would you feel if your child drown because precious resources were used to save embryos?

Oh, wait. You don't see the comparison.

:scared:



Edited to add:

Your already born children. You know, the ones who have been birthed and are alive, with feelings, memories and who can feel the pain of death as the water fills their lungs. Those kind of children.


:scared:

[femrap]

162. 1 of each. nt

[Critters2]

114. The state of Illinois didn't send Conservation Police to Louisiana

to save embryos. They were sent to save born people, to use your term (I don't think people are people unless they're born, but that's me). That the Police were saving a freezer means they weren't saving people. They were saving this freezer instead of and IN PLACE of born people. Whoever ordered them to do so should be fired. And this couple should reimburse the state of Illinois.

[seabeyond]

38. you refuse to see. it was clearly explained to you. yet you say again

you cannot see why people are outraged were left people left to die while a company with the help of the national guard that should have been busy saving lives was otherwise allowed to do something, that others were not allowed to do to save lives

it is basic
it is simple
it is clear
yet still you say you cannot see.

obviously, regardless how slow or loud a person talks, you will refuse to see

[Caoimhe]

39. Here's our first candidate. Thanks...

I refuse to see

Because I am not outraged a couple had a baby after such a unique circumstance.

Gosh, I will try to be more hateful and venomous in the future.

[seabeyond]

40. where am i talking at all about the couple and their experience

i have no comment at all about the couple and their experience. that has not been a single part of my post. or the others here on this thread from what i have read. hateful? the fact that guards were used to save embryos as opposed to saving life..... people suffering... that is hateful? you hae wiggle your argument all over the place to ignore what is being said, and where the outrage comes for agenda purpose.

[Critters2]

115. They had a baby. A lot of people of color had funerals. See the difference? nt

[Marie26]

46. I don't blame the parents

According to the article, the father didn't even know what was happening until after the embryos were recovered. I blame the authorities. Did you see where the fertility doctor placed a personal call to Gov. Blanco to get the National Guard troops, the boats, & the clearance for this rescue mission? At the same time, charity organizations were turned away from the city. Thousands languished at the Superdome & Convention Center w/no help at all. Yet we can get a calvary together to recover embryos? Why not pick up a few Charity Hospital patients on the way - hey, they can hold the embryos if you're worried about space in the boat. The priorities are SO messed up in this case & it just exposes the real, stark dichotomies of race & class in this country.

[Caoimhe]

51. Thankyou for addressing the real problem

It's not overpopulation
It's not god forbid this selfish couple name their baby Noah
It's not about how white folks get special treatment
It's about two different issues:

1)The miracle of a new baby for an otherwise infertile couple against some pretty unique odds

2)How "who you know" can change how things unfold.

I just don't see how the two stories are being combined into something that makes people so angry toward this couple.

[seabeyond]

53. for like the umpteenth post..... who is harrassing the couple? n/t

[Caoimhe]

56. well.. I did read this from you

The selfishness and self-entitlement of some in our society has gotten way out of hand.

I wonder if Noah's parents are against stem-cell research? "I got what I wanted but screw those with disease living in wheel chairs."

Do you think Noah's parents ever look around and ever think about Population Control? No, they're just too selfish...it's all about them. These people are part of the problem. All of the unwanted children in foster care and these people think their damn eggs/sperm are so fucking important.

Me Me Me Me Me Me Me Me Me.....that is what this * Administration teaches our society.

Am I seeing things? Sure looks like you think this couple is uber-selfish. I will ask again, since I noticed you didn't answer, do you have children?

[seabeyond]

60. you are seeing things. i dont talk like that. n/t

[Caoimhe]

64. I apologize for attributing that to you.

That was unfair of me. I read too fast. But I think you see what I mean about this thread and the vitriol poured on this couple.

[Critters2]

117. I have no trouble calling them uber-selfish. Children languish in foster care

while rich, white people NEED babies with their own genes. That's bad enough, even without the added horrors of Katrina.

Selfish.

[seabeyond]

121. now see, that is just.... mean. who are you to say, for another. i could

never decide for another in such a way. knowing how much i DONT know.... and to actually say something like this.

[Critters2]

126. There are plenty of children in foster care who need homes

I think fertility treatments are a waste of medical know-how that could be used to treat life-threatening illnesses. Not everyone gets to have a baby. Life's hard (though that really doesn't seem so bad to me).

[seabeyond]

130. i

am more pragmatic. and think like you. i embrace what is handed to me and can generally find a higher in it. adopt would be my easy answer. but.... not everyone i like you... or me.... and speaking about me.... thank god. i posted down below when i saw you were adopting. i am thrilled for you

[Caoimhe]

148. Isn't it such a great thing

that you aren't forced to have fertility treatments?? It's also nice that you don't have to pay for other people's fertility treatments!

I'm all about choice. Thought that was a liberal concept.

[Marie26]

61. I agree w/you,

except as far as it not being about white folks getting special treatment. I think white folks DID get special treatment, in many different ways, throughout the Katrina disaster. I cannot get over the image of flat-bottom boats passing by black people dying - to get some white embryos instead. It's not just about "who you know", it's about how race & class affect who will get a response from people in positions of power. It's about how race affects people's decisions & perceptions & values in ways they're not even consiously aware of. Somehow, if that was a doctor asking for recovery of embryos at Charity Hospital for a poor single mother - I don't think he would have gotten the same response. Because it wasn't really a rescue mission at all - it was people w/power & influence using the government to protect their own resources.

[Critters2]

97. It was government workers--not clinic workers who "saved" them

Illinois Conservation Police, sent to NOLA to help with REAL crises, not to rescue the whims of some rich couple.

Oh, and another piece of news...People get by just fine without offspring. They needed neither the fertility treatments nor the the time and effort of government employees to help them make babies.

[seabeyond]

100. a person wanting or not needing babies isnt your call. diverting resources

from saving lives to saving embryos is..... your call, wink.

[Critters2]

110. People wanting babies and doing all they can with their own private funds

is not my call. Using my tax dollars to help rich white people get preggers is absolutely my business. I'm an Illinoisan, and I think my state should send these rich bastards a bill, and fire whoever ordered the Conservation Police to engage in such a waste of effort.

[seabeyond]

116. i am not arguing the issue at hand

delving into personal choices in procreating bothers me.

i support your position those people your state sent down was not meant for the use of a company to retrieve their assets.... but to save lives.

[Contrary1]

95. I have read this article twice...

I see no mention of the National Guard being used.

[seabeyond]

96. post #94. i guess it is on cnn. maing mention of the national guard. n/t

[Contrary1]

103. Just watched the CNN video...

No mention of the Guard there either.

http://www.cnn.com/video/player/player.html?url=/video/health/2007/01/16/rosegen.nola.embryo.rescue.cnn

Edit to add: Please don't think of my post as defending the lunacy. Just trying to be accurate, that's all. :hi:

[Critters2]

109. From the MSNBC story

"Dr. Belinda “Sissy” Sartor of The Fertility Institute of New Orleans and the clinic’s lab director, Roman Pyrzak, had led seven Illinois Conservation Police officers and three from Louisiana State Police on a rescue expedition to the facility in flat-bottomed boats brought from Illinois."

As a citizen of Illinois, let me assure you that I did NOT think my tas-supported Conservation Police officers were sent to Louisiana to save incubating embryos. This couple should reimburse the state of Illnois...and apologize to everyone who lost loved ones to Katrina.

[Horse with no Name]

112. MSNBC reported it as the National Guard

on their on-screen story.
It's not on their site though.

[mockmonkey]

157. NBC Nightly News

Also reported that the National Guard was involved. One other thing was that the cannister was retrieved 2 weeks after Katrina.

Added:
The NBC website doesn't mention the NG in their story. But I swear I heard them mentioned by Brian Williams.

[Critters2]

99. Illinois Conservation Police did it

They were sent from Illinois to NOLA to help with rescues--presumably rescues of real human beings. As a resident of Illinois, I paid for this ridiculous "rescue". This couple should reimburse Illinois.

[Contrary1]

My brother, who is a firefighter and paramedic

in Indianapolis signed up to go to LA to help out. A couple days later, he, and his fellow rescue workers were informed that their "important duty" there would be to hand out fliers, and be available for photo ops.

Their commander canceled the whole thing. Such a shame...so many good people willing to help, and a good percentage of those who showed up were either turned away, or used for some idiotic purposes other than rescue. This embryo story would be a non-issue, if it all been handled humanely. There would have been enough volunteers on hand to do both.

As it turned out, my brother experienced chest pains a few days later, and ended up having a quintuple bypass. The docs told him he may not have survived the trip.

[Critters2]

129. Wow. What luck.

Too bad his frew didn't get to help out. Yet, fortunate he didn't take the risk of that trip. Life is complex, ain't it? I'm glad he got the surgery, and I hope he's okay.

[seabeyond]

139. everyone nation wide.... wanted to help. this nation had more than

enough abled hands to take care of katrina and govt refused all help. they literally refused it as we sat and watched people die

then beyond that, kinda a god thing for your brother.

[Caoimhe]

147. Yes and toss out the remaining embryos!

It's only right! :sarcasm:

[alarimer]

65. Because they diverted resources from saving actual people

You know, the ones that are more than a collection of cells. I am upset because in the article it states that they used rescue personnel (I think game wardens or something) that could have been better used elsewhere. It is one thing for the clinic people to do it themselves; it is another to divert resources from people who need it more than a collection of cells.

[BlooInBloo]

18. *brown* people drowned. Makes all the difference in the world to America.

[TommyO]

19. How many people died so Noah's embryo could be saved?

Boston Legal had it right, the world turned upside-down in New Orleans.

[seabeyond]

20. cows get hay, embryos get saved..... FUCK the people n/t

[stray cat]

24. Animals were saved as well while people were still at the Superdome

It depended where you were in the city as to how soon help arrived. Rescues from rooftops happened before moving people from the superdome. My guess is the embryos were saved along with the people at hospitals that were better funded ie private compared to the public hospitals where rescues were not a top priority. It seems it is more a case of differences in how we help the haves versus the have nots.

[charlie]

26. I dunno if people were saved

It seemed to be mission-specific for the embryos:

But Katrina's eight feet of water knocked out the electricity, and the temperature climbed. A freshly topped-off tank is safe for three to four weeks in an air-conditioned room, but "I'm sure the temperature was over 100 degrees in that hospital," said Dr. Belinda (Sissy) Sartor, a fertility expert for the institute.

Fearing the embryos would be ruined, she contacted a state lawmaker, who called Gov. Kathleen Blanco, and on Sept. 11, 2005, Illinois officers on loan to Louisiana set out in National Guard trucks, towing flat-bottomed boats.

A flat surface was essential: The 35- and 40-liter nitrogen tanks weighed up to 90 pounds and had to stay upright. If they tipped, nitrogen would spill.

The boats puttered past cars still flooded almost to their windows. The boats were taken through the flooded halls, and the embryos were floated across town to a hospital that hadn't flooded.

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070104/NEWS07/701040354/1009/NEWS07

[A Simple Game]

30. This was not just senseless, it was dangerous.

"The 35- and 40-liter nitrogen tanks weighed up to 90 pounds and had to stay upright. If they tipped, nitrogen would spill." Liquid nitrogen is very dangerous, this was a fools mission.

[MacGregor]

79. Your link indicates the embryo deal happened Sept. 11.

That was, what, about 2 weeks after the storm?

[Critters2]

137. the Illinois Conservation Police did this, and they were sent to LA to save lives

not embryos. This couple owes the state of Illinois reimbursement. I think our Comptroller should send them a bill.

[sakabatou]

28. .

>_<

[Celebration]

32. I'm happy for them too

This thread kind of reminds me of the threads about Oprah when she decided to help African girls with their education. But why didn't she help the boys? Why doesn't she help Americans?

If the embryos weren't saved I sincerely doubt that the resources would have helped anyone trapped in an attic.

Besides the money, does anyone really *know* what a woman goes through in fertility treatments? It is no picnic--it is risky and difficult. It is not as if the embryos could be easily "replaced."

[seabeyond]

33. cows being fed, embyros being saved and people left to die

how that compares to oprah and the school, i dont know.

[Celebration]

43. here's the deal

Cows being fed=good
Embryos being saved=good
People left to die=bad

It's not either/or. Just because you don't do a good thing (saving embryos) doesn't mean that the bad thing (people left to die) would not have happened.

I mean, use some logic.

[Caoimhe]

45. Apparently you are asking too much

I think I need to hide this thread before I start ignoring folks that I otherwise agree with on 99.9% of things.

[seabeyond]

48. when a person understand the concept we are willing to save our

cows, and save our embryos, and let those suffering in a flood die..... then...

saving cows=good
saving embryos=good
letting people die=bad

but.... i do not see that this is a lesson learned. so i will continue to say, save the cows, save the embroys and let the people die.

maybe that will sink in.... to how our priorities are f*cked up.

logic is all i am asking for

[Celebration]

55. FEMA and the administration

If only you could hear the way I have ranted and raved against this administration, its priorities, its response to Katrina, Iraq (the foreign policy Katrina), the incompetence, the negligence, the criminality, and..........you name it.

And I will continue to be aghast at the federal response to Katrina.

However, you just aren't going to be able to make me unhappy that embryos were saved. Sorry, I'm glad that there was this very tiny okay part of the response to Katrina. If I thought it would have saved some lives if the embryos were sacrificed, I would rethink it. The whole point to the response to Katrina was that the entire response was in disarray.

[seabeyond]

59. my hearts not in it

i can hear what you say. i am not into abortion, i am not into women not being able to have children when they want them, i am so into the love of holding a baby in ones arms. all the love. the most powerful thing i have experienced in life. i want all to feel the same as i,.... if they chose. i hear what you say. i am an optimist and see the good and higher in all.....

but my heart is not into this. i watched from the time i got up, to the time i went to bed and the helplessness watching these people, and the hope that soon they would be rescued.

i cannot feel what you do.

not that i am not thrilled, now..... with the couple not knowing their embyros were rescued, that now holding a baby and feeling such love....

my heart is not into that rescue for the reasons of the rescue, with all that was left undone, by a call to the govenor, and the resources given to them

when citizens finally having enough with the govt not rescueing the people traveled to this area and still demied the opportunity to go in and save people

it isnt the couple being able to have the baby

it is that this company was even able to do this, where the outrage is.

[alarimer]

67. They did it INSTEAD of saving people

How many people could have been rescued in the time it took to save some fucking embryos? Why in the fucking hell is it so hard to understand this? They diverted resources needed elsewhere so some rich assholes could breed. That is so completely fucked up.

[Caoimhe]

36. Thank you

This thread has me seriously thinking about using that new ignore function. Amazing!

[Kerrytravelers]

138. Actually, your callousness has inspired me greatly!

[libnnc]

44. I'm sorry, but poor little old ladies dying of dehydration

crying because they can't get their medication and drowning in a cesspool of filthy water takes precedence over a zygote in a test tube. But I guess that's just me.

[Kickin_Donkey]

49. The real people who died because the embryos "had" to be saved ...

it's not as if they could be easily replaced, either.

If the embryos weren't saved I sincerely doubt that the resources would have helped anyone trapped in an attic.

Please. What a ridiculous thing to say. The boats and Guardsmen could have saved people -- real, living people.

[Celebration]

58. "Could have"

Speculative. Do you really think that would have been done? Our administration failed to respond properly because of fear--misplaced fear of getting shot, being mobbed, and lack of preparation. The embryos were saved because there weren't rumors of them being armed.

I think you are being naive to think the resources would have been used to save lives of people in attics. They would have been held back. There were plenty of resources available to help people that weren't being used at all. Truckloads full of supplies were kept from driving to the Superdome, if you will remember correctly.

Given that, I am happy at least that the embryos were saved.

[Pithlet]

88. Boats were diverted from their purpose. Nothing speculative about that.

Those boats and the people and resources servicing them were for people. Not for what amounted to at the time as medical specimens. If they were being used for anything other than their purpose, while there were people at the time that were in need of that purpose, then that was absolutely, 100% morally and ethically wrong. You can't use the fact that there weren't enough resources to save everyone as an excuse. In fact, that only makes it even more wrong! As it was, every single rescue operation should have been aimed at saving people. Every single one. And every single one that wasn't is absolutely up for scrutiny, as this "rescue" mission is. Personally, if a born and living child of mine had died for want of rescue during Katrina, and then I met one of these "rescuers" face to face, you bet I'd want to frigging rip their heart out. Absolutely. People have every right to be outraged by this.

[Celebration]

90. Wasted resources

The whole point is that there were resources down there that were completely WASTED--helicopters not flying, trucks stopped and not allowed into the city, resources that were withheld while the federal government tried to coerce the state to give up control of the National Guard. Fear and rumours were spread about riots, etc. That is the outrage. People and resources were held up, nothing was done, and it was a criminal act. I feel that people should be held criminally responsible for that.

The problems were due to criminal negligence, wasted resources, fear, and mismanagement. They were not at all due to saving embryos. I feel no outrage about embryos being saved. People that call that only a corporate resource have NO IDEA what women have to go through to have this procedure done.

[seabeyond]

91. the thing is.... if those resources werent used for embryos, they werent

going to be used to save lives.

that was the reality then. a couple choppers took of for rescue there and we watched them gather people off roofs. when they got back to their base, they were chewed out for doing it. it was demanded these people ot be rescued. that is what i want answered. doctors standing next tot he sick that needed medical care and they were physically pushed away from the people that needed their help.

then we have lieberman.

maybe this story will rekindle the memories and the outrage and a demand to know why

[Pithlet]

92. I don't think anyone is saying that it is all due to saving embryos.

For instance I would feel no outrage about them being saved if no resources had been diverted in the saving of them. If this had been done by the doctors themselves, say, because they were already on the way out and happened to grab them, I've got no problem with that. It isn't the mere fact that test tubes were rescued that I have a problem with. It's the diversion of precious resources used to save them that is unforgivable to me.

It is precisely because resources weren't being used to their full advantage that I find this story particularly horrendous. We couldn't get all of the boats and helicopters and what have you out to save people, but we were certainly able to somehow find ones to save test tubes? Every single unit, every single helicopter, every single boat that we DID manage to mobilize should have been used to save people. Anything short of that is morally and ethically unacceptable.

[Critters2]

120. One can always adopt. nt

[Critters2]

118. I couldn't care less what women go through in fertility treatments

and whatever it is, it doesn't justify the diversion of resources from saving lives to saving a freezer. These embryos were saved by Illinois Conservation Police who were sent to LA to help with the REAL CRISES of the disaster. They were precisely to help save people trapped in attics, and the like. Instead, they were saving a freezer. I can't believe you think that is appropriate. How sick.

[bobthedrummer]

34. Eugenics, NAZI like elitist racist eugenics are part of the ideology

of this criminal administration and their inner circle's culture of death.

They've got to GO-resign/be removed from office and then prosecuted by the "pieces of paper" they have criminally, "unilaterally" ignored/replaced-or are we condoning eugenics as a precursor to genocide???

[magellan]

41. I saw it on CNN

...and was screaming by the time they got to the baby's name: Noah. Glad for the new parents, but what about all the poor people who were stuck on their roofs and in their homes dying while these police officers were effecting this "rescue"? How about all those poor people who were left waiting and dying without water at the arena??

We have gone down the fucking rabbit hole.

[seabeyond]

42. i have been told i am hateful, because i feel as you. talk about a rabbit hole

that it is hateful that one can see the resource going to rescue embryos that was denied for people suffering and dying is hateful

[magellan]

66. Happens all the time

Unfounded assumptions are made about what you don't say. Many times I've had to retroactively defend something I've posted here because I failed to qualify my initial statement 100 ways to Revelations with how I feel about everything else regarding that subject.

I share your anger. 10 officers and multiple flat bottom boats were used. If they'd helped anyone along the way the article would have stated so.

It's unbelievable that anyone would be unable to see what an affront this is. It's got nothing to do with the parents. Their embryos were a damn sight luckier than the living who were suffering and dying while this rescue was being carried out.

[alarimer]

70. Exactly

I am so outraged by this. It is the single worst misuse of resources in all the Katrina crap. People DIED because of this, I am certain. Fuck that clinic director and her greed. What was in those tubes was money to her. What would have made this is true heartwarming story would be if that couple had adopted a Katrina orphan, instead of crowing about how they called in the National Guard to save THEIR DNA.

[magellan]

78. You know why this set me off even more?

The fact that the people who made up over 67% of the NOLA population before Katrina have been forgotten. Poor African Americans. (Or the poor in general, but the race divide is evident.) They died, or are refugees still strewn across the nation with little hope of returning because they'll never afford the new homes that eventually will be erected on top of their old ones.

And then to learn about this diversion of resources to rescue embryos. Jesus H Christ, what the hell have we become that such news could be reported so GLIBLY, as if the people who were at the same time waiting in vain to be rescued never even existed? As if the suffering that was going on while these frozen cells were saved is to be TAKEN FOR GRANTED.

"People died, but the embryos were rescued!" And say it with a triumphant smile. This is the public face of America in all its hideous glory since Bush** came along.

[Sapphire Blue]

50. Outrageous. Simply outrageous. I've just contacted both of my Senators' offices to express....

... my outrage & demand answers. Thousands of poor people were left to drown in the floodwaters, survivors sent to 'shelter' w/no food or water, abandoned to a 'shelter' full of filth & feces. Poor people getting shot at & called 'looters' for simply trying to survive in the inhuman conditions to which this fucking government abandoned them.

And the fucking National Guard saves the rich people's IVF clinic's embryos?

FUCK. FUCK. FUCK. FUCK. FUCK.

United States of America: The Land of the Privileged. :puke:

[Horse with no Name]

54. Just to cut this down a little further

I don't--at all--blame the potential parents. Apparently, they didn't know this was going on.
And also...I know that many people who go through fertility treatments are not rich and wealthy...some just want children so badly that they are willing to borrow money, sell possessions, etc.
I want this part taken out of the entire equation.
However, the corporation that is entrusted to safeguard these embryos has to do just that. If those embryos had been lost, it would be pretty safe to say that the clinic (corporation) would have had to replace them at no cost to the clients.
So...there wasn't any philanthropy attached to saving these embryos.
It was total bottom line profit and loss for the corporation.
Of which, our precious few resources that were available to us during the aftermath of Katrina were taken and squandered to protect a corporation's bottom line.
That is the fury.

[libnnc]

57. I agree with you.

Great explanation. :thumbsup:

[Caoimhe]

62. Thankyou for separating that out

I don't--at all--blame the potential parents. Apparently, they didn't know this was going on.
And also...I know that many people who go through fertility treatments are not rich and wealthy...some just want children so badly that they are willing to borrow money, sell possessions, etc.
I want this part taken out of the entire equation.

Your post speaks to the real issue and I appreciate that. No, not all people who get fertility treatment are rich, selfish and conservative, but that tends to get lost in the stereotyping sometimes.

[Sapphire Blue]

63. You can want whatever you like. It is part of the equation, whether you like it or not.

The fucking National Guard responded to the needs of the fucking wealthy to save embryos while abandoning living, breathing and poor people to die in floodwaters, filth & feces.

Blame the corporation? Who the fuck is funding the corporation? The fucking wealthy. The fucking wealthy who have to reproduce their own genetic material because they refuse to adopt already born children in need of homes. You say that many are not wealthy. Well, they have the means to afford extremely expensive elective medical treatment to populate the earth w/their own genetic material, refusing to adopt & love an already born child. They sure as hell ain't poor.

FUCK. FUCK. FUCK. FUCK. FUCK. FUCK. FUCK.

:puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke:

[Caoimhe]

68. Hmmm

I'm not wealthy.
I'm not conservative.
I'm not religious.
I am in fertility treatment.
Guess I'm a selfish pile of dung for wanting my own child.
Damn me to hell.

You want to start attacking childless couples who seek fertility treatment you can. We make an easy target. We are used to everyone else knowing what is best for us, and having all the answers.

[Lars39]

69. The clinic should have used their own resources then, instead of those

needed desperately elsewhere.

[Marie26]

71. Exactly. nt

[bobbolink]

82. ABSO-FUCKING-LUTELY!!!! You are on target, Lars39!!

This is completely beyond sickening.

I don't know about others here, but I remember very clearly how horrible I felt, watching those people suffer and die.

That was bad enough, but to know now the UGLY and HATEFUL priorities, well, it's beyond words.

It didn't have to be, and these choices show just how sick this whole society is!!

There is NO emoticon for what I'm going through with this!

Thank you for your sensitivity on this!

[Sapphire Blue]

73. I would not change one word in either of my 2 previous posts in this thread.

[Caoimhe]

74. May I ask if you have children?

[fooj]

101. I AM one of those women. I have no children and DESPERATELY

tried for YEARS. Fertility treatments. EVERYTHING under the sun. My husband and I gave it EVERYTHING we had...emotionally and monetarily. I can honestly say that my inability to conceive a child is one heartbreak that I will carry to my grave.

HOWEVER...
"Rescuing" embryos instead of human beings is not ok. Period. WTF? Has the entire world gone mad?

[Caoimhe]

149. We agree 100%

I wish the "rescues" during Katrina had turned out different and resources had been used in saving the living, suffering people. but I'm also glad this couple have their baby.

Thanks for sharing your experience. I know you don't feel this way, but I just don't see why others think a person is "selfish" if they want a child and get help achieving that end, but people who CAN get pregnant without help.. aren't selfish, just I guess "lucky".

I miscarried in 2003, people are totally insensitive about other people's reproduction or lack thereof.

[bobbolink]

84. And that's what I appreciate about you!!!

Thank you so very much for having the courage and integrity to say it like it is!

:hug: :hug: :loveya: :hug: :hug:

[Sapphire Blue]

85. ...

:hug: :hug: :loveya: :hug: :hug:

[seabeyond]

76. if you had the means to save lives, and you walked past countless

lives to obtain your need to have a child.... then there might be room to talk. and that is a big might. really, to match this story it would have to be walking past the lives for the almighty dollar, because it was not a parent but an owner of a business. but as it stands, a person desiring a child and only able to meet that desire thru fertility treatment is no ones business but your own, and i imagine you would have 100% support, or at least overwhelming support from everyone on this board. to suggest this is an attack on the fertility treatments isnt correct.

i can understand your sensitivity with this subject. especially if you are in the process now. this is not an indictment against your experience. further..... with all my heart.... i am hoping all goes well for you. as i have said in other posts, i wouldnt want to deny anyone the experience of being a parent. for me, it is the best. not knowing you at all, from my heart, i hope you get to experience it soon. i hope (but i doubt) you dont take this personally.

[Critters2]

105. There are already plenty of children in need of homes, or,

another option--plenty of us live perfectly satisfying lives with no offspring. No one will ever die waiting for a boat that's being used to save my embryos.

I call them priorities.

[fooj]

108. I don't see anyone targeting anybody here.

I feel you. I really do. My husband and I went through years of fertility treatments. I wouldn't wish it on anyone. It takes a severe, emotional toll.

However...
For the life of me...I can't understand how anyone could reconcile saving an embryo OVER a human life. For goodness sake...

[bobbolink]

81. I share your outrage! There comes a point where those with resources

simply cannot understand or comprehend how we, as poor folk, feel and see the world, and THEM.

The gulf between us is HUGE, and can't be bridged by the poor folk.

I have seen this very clearly during the last year, and it grieves me to know that there will ALWAYS be that gulf, and that people with means and resources, no matter whether they consider themselves wealthy or not, simply cannot understand. And, as Martin Luther King spoke, without understanding, there can't be peace.

:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:

[Critters2]

102. If fhe issue was the bottom line of a private business, why did public employees

do the "saving"?

[bobbolink]

80. I'm completely with you!!! This underscores for me exactly why my LIFE IS NOTHING

to these people!!

No, they don't give a shit when people die on the street, homeless, and now it's here for all to see.

At least, those who *care* to see.

Honestly, I really don't know how to go on living in a society who places NO VALUE on my life. I can't even begin to comprehend it. But, at least this demonstrates that what many of us have been saying is completely TRUE!

Thank you for caring, Sapphire Blue, and for your wonderful honesty! I'm fed up completely with excuses, and if it weren't for people like you, I'd implode!

:hug:

[seabeyond]

83. i think that was the biggest realization for my husband and i as we sat

safe in our home watching hour after hour the despair. just sure someone was going to rescue. hearing the promise and calculating when the help would come only to be disappointed that no one showed. no one did anything. and then all the people trying to help and being refused and turned away or physically detained from helping others.

the realization.... that we could not count on our govt to help us in crisis.

then to see threads with people wanting to deny help to those people climbing mountains, or getting lost in wilderness. it is not only our govt.

my husband has been a republican forever. iraq convinced hubby to vote kerry. katrina convinced hubby to walk away from the republican party forever.

[bobbolink]

86. I'm sorry that it took all those deaths to constitute a wake-up call,

but please tell your hubby that I'm grateful to him for his compassion.

The real kind, not that fake political shit.

I wish I could tell him just how much all those policies have hurt me, and what has been taken from me that can't be regained.

I hope he will now, after taking a breath from the ugliness of Katrina (you *have* to smell the roses--you can't sit in the pain every minute!), he will listen to what poor folk are saying about what they have been dealing with as a result of the policies since Raygun.

Really, I hope that he will.

Thanks for sharing this with me, and don't forget to give him my greetings! :hi: for you.... :hi: for hubby

[seabeyond]

89. hey....

the thing. i think many are republican in name only, because of the area of country they are raised in, or the family they have. he never qualified as a republican even though he thought he did. texan that he is, ..... would fly to san francisco every year for the blues festival when he was older. felt women should be able to make their choice with their body. and believes gays should equally be allowed marriage to the extent he agreed with me that if there was a call from the gay community for all of us to divorce and have a civil union ,.... we woud be right there with our brothers and sisters.

he had moved his business to another building, and after katrina, continued to pay rent on the old building. bought ad time on the radio for the community to bring their donations of clothes and food to the old building and shipped all the stuff out to a church in houston.

he called himself a republican. but i didnt see a whole lot of republican in him. he just needed a good woman to show him the way. wink

[Swamp Rat]

52. ... on a rescue expedition to the facility in flat-bottomed boats brought from Illinois...

passing by and leaving behind thirsty and dying people on rooftops in order to save some rich people's eggs.

Fucking monsters!

[bobbolink]

87. NO.... not correct...

FUCKING HEARTLESS MONSTERS!!!

Please, swampy, one of your pictures in "honor" of these .... I can't even think of an adjective for these alleged "humans".

:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:

I really want to get out of this society, and live the last years of my life around people who still have hearts.

:cry:

[Swamp Rat]

154. "Humans?"

No way.

[bobbolink]

169. You Captured it!!

Thanks, swampy! It really helps to know there are others who see it.

I envy you your art talent, and ability to conceptualize. All I have is measley words, and often that is just lacking.

Is this a new one?

:yourock:

[Karenina]

122. AAAAARRRRGGGHHHHH!!!!

:argh::argh::argh:

[Swamp Rat]

153. oi amor!

:hug:

Sorry I didn't call you... I'll tell you later. ¡Me encanta España! Ya me falta mucho. :cry:

[zbdent]

72. People were stuck in hell during Katrina

and yet, on the last big blizzard not long ago, the govt. airlifted feed to beef cattle to keep beef farmers from losing cattle and profits ...

[bobbolink]

160. sure, $$$$$$$ A homeless man had a sign that said it all:

"If I was a dog, would you help me?"

What an ugly society we have become!!

[mondo obscurius]

77. not a moral issue probably

Fertility Institute sounds like a high tech money maker to me - in the business of helping paying customers with their reproductive problems. Embryos are expensive assets and were naturally saved from the flood. The institute would have nothing to sell without viable inventory. Drowning poor people are not institutional assets and are easily replaceable. Sorry to be cynical, but to me this is just another tedious reflection of the Amerikan soul - such as it is.

mo

[bobbolink]

161. Yup, people like me are worth nothing, and just tossed out with the garbage.

It remains to be seen how much changes with the Dems.

:shrug:

[mondo obscurius]

166. we shall see

shan't we?
:toast:

[bobbolink]

168. Welcome to DU, mondo obscurius!

:toast:

I'm not overly hopeful, so yes, we shall.

I would be much more hopeful if the body of citizens were at the ready with torches and pitchforks. :hi:

[Rex]

93. Why are we allowed to eat cloned meat, but can't use stemcells

to help prolong lifespans? We live in the most fucked up country on the planet IMO.

[Critters2]

94. I saw this on CNN

They were all oohin' and ahhin' about the very brave national Guard carefully brining this freezer thing out of a building. I wondered how many dead REAL PEOPLE's bodies floated by while they were saving these "babies".

It made me sick!! Whoever ordered the guard to do this should be fired. At least.

[seabeyond]

98. i called landrieu's office just now. this rehash has pissed me off all over agian

there is a thread in gd from crooks and liars to call lieberman and landrieu about the katrina investigation. if you are pissed, go into the thread. the telehone numbers are in there. give them a call. especially landrieu. she is on homeland and the person on the phone says she is asking for all the papers promised lieberman.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x3132593

here is the thread with the numbers

[fooj]

104. I understand that Waxman has jurisdiction over Katrina...

Can HE do anything about this injustice? In the meantime...I'll call. Thanks for the heads-up.

[seabeyond]

106. waxman. lol lol. he has enough outrage. let him take them all, lol

hey.... read you post above. you touched my heart so much. so much

[fooj]

113. It was a very difficult time for me.

I felt cheated. I felt a desperate hope that diminished slowly over time. I was heartbroken. I still cry myself to sleep at night.

FWIW- I would never place an embryo's worth over the life of a human being...even though I DESPERATELY wanted a child.

[seabeyond]

119. i would think that would have to be the reaction. life.... or save embyro

for personal gain. i would hope had that family known they would have prefer that boat and those men go after lives to be saved.

one thing about children that we learn..... all else comes before personal want, that is for sure.

i thought i would be without child too. i was very old before getting married and had to resolve in my mind. but if i can share my own belief, just the feel i have in the whole universal of it all.... there is a reason, i feel it so strongly. there is a love you give to all,.... that a woman who havent had the opportunity to have a child, a specialness this woman gives to the world with such love. that is what i have consistantly found from the women that have had similar experiences to your own. it is presumptious of me, but i have a few women in my life that i just love, that are so a part of my family, that give their heart to the world. they are a true blessing.



i

[fooj]

124. Thank you for your kind words.

:hug: It means a great deal to me.

[Critters2]

123. I'm beginning the process toward adoption. I don't see the need to give birth

when so many children need homes. I simply don't understand it.

[fooj]

125. Yes. We are considering adoption, as well.

We have a lot of love to give, yes?

[Critters2]

127. Yep. Endometriosis badly damaged by ovaries years ago,

but there are plenty of already-born babies who could live in my great, big house (too big for just me!).

[seabeyond]

133. i have that now and hurts like hell. and yes yes to you all. now i have

to pick up a little one. but,... i feel blessed and honored to have shared the last moments with you two.

[fooj]

134. Your little one is lucky to have your love.

Give a hug from me, ok?

[seabeyond]

141. well

i am going ot keep an eye on you. you ever need to chat..... i am here.

[fooj]

143. Thanks.

:hug:

[Critters2]

136. Mine was asymptomatic--no pain, no symptoms

Didn't know anything was wrong until my doc just had a kind of "hunch" during my yearly exam. That led to tests, which found a lot of endo, much of it formed into tumors in all kinds of worrisome places--my ovaries, my tubes, my liver, my bile duct, quite the mess. After the surgeries, my doc said I may be able to conceive, maybe not, but she didn't want me doing it naturally for fear of ectopic pregnancy. Then Mr. Right left, and I figured I'd have no kids. Now, I sponsor a child at an orphanage in Mexico, and that's gotten me thinking about how many children need homes. I've begun talking to an agency related to my church that does adoptions. I have a pile of literature on my desk as we speak.

[seabeyond]

140. you go

i figured mr right would never be so i was checking out having a child by myself too. i thought about it long and hard, and even today with things having shifted in another direction.... i can easily see making that choice. and there are a lot of children that need an opporunity. i really wish my husband was more receptive to this idea. (but then i have nephews and nieces that arent being taken care of and my home is the resting place for them, often. hubby totally allows. so, i guess in a way i am already doing it)

[seabeyond]

131. i didnt know that was an option for you. now i see..... oh yes...

i say with tears, do it. lol lol cause... it is the best. dont have fears.... nothing to fear.

[fooj]

144. Tell that to my hubby! LOL.

Like I said...we're CONSIDERING. If it were up to me it would have been a done deal already. He has his reservations. Let's just say that I'm working on it.

[seabeyond]

146. my husband too

i wanted one more. i got hubby snipped snipped. then wanted another. he said wait and see then we will look at adopting. but there is a reservation. i think i understand, just not gonna post. i also understand your hesitancy with a husband having reservation. it really needs to be something as a couple you are gungho on. this is not a small decision, that is for sure. i understand.

[seabeyond]

128. ok.... now i getcha. lol. you dont get it. but.... it isnt you, it is her

and good for you. the best in that. i love the idea of married adopting. if i were married to soemone receptive in that, i would have done it at least a couple times.

hey..... cant wait for you

[Critters2]

132. I'm not married. One of the reasons I've waited, hoping for the perfect mate

to form the perfect family. Well, that doesn't seem to be happening, so I'm looking into doing it on my own. Kinda scary, but I think I can do it. I have a good community around me.

[seabeyond]

142. I have a good community

i was going to add in the post above. and.... you have your church. kinda scary,... lol lol doesnt matter which way you go... it is kinda scary. lol. coolest.

[AnnieBW]

171. We're thinking about it, too

I've got screwed-up hormones and PCOS, we're both in our early 40's, and my husband has a low sperm count. I'd rather adopt than go through all of that rigamarole to spawn my own kid. That they cared more about blastocicles than they did real human beings is disgusting.

[Critters2]

174. Blastocicles!!! LOL!

:rofl:

[CC]

111. First I am happy

for Noah's parents(and any others) and nothing against them. BUT it was a misuse of resources for cooperate gain leaving people to die a slow horrible death.
Now I want a follow up story done. How many of those embryos will be destroyed because the future parents drowned, died of injuries or suicide because of what the living went/are going through?
Edited to add- Or won't be used because of the stress on people from having no home, job, community.

[WindRavenX]

145. Noah aside, this is sickening

:cry:

[NotGivingUp]

150. that is so disgusting

[bedazzled]

151. i wondered why the story made me want to puke

it offended me so much, i didn't even want to hear about it --
but you've cut to the heart of the matter.

it's revolting in so many ways...

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

152. I just read the AP/CNN and MSNBC stories. What amazes me is there is no hint, in the coverage,

that some might, ahem, raise their eyebrow (understatement of the century) that any government resources would be utilized for such a mission.

Even if it was weeks after the storm, it was MONTHS before some dead were found/identified in their homes. Clearly government resources could have been used for that, cleanup, or whatever.

Medical insurance, in most cases, doesn't even cover the costs of in vitro fertilization, and "excess" embryos are usually discarded after a period of time, so it's not an issue of saving the sacred embryos (or else the National Guard or Conservation Police would storm the fertility clincs to prevent the destruction of these embryos that happens all the time), it just happened to be that these were embryos that some of the parents WANTED.

[in_cog_ni_to]

155. SOOOOO typical, isn't it? Pro-Life UNTIL they're born.

To hell with all those living human beings who are suffering. SO-DAMN-TYPICAL.

[wiley]

159. I'm sure every attempt was made to save corporate resources.

[fishwax]

163. it's outrageous

that resources would be diverted for that :grr::nuke:

[Beausoir]

164. This is disgusting. People drowning while some frozen cells receive a police escort?

Tell me this isn't happening.

I saw this on Brian Williams tonight and he was REJOICING.

No mention of the thousands who drowned or died of natural causes (heat exhaustion, dehydration, heatstroke, etc.)

Instead, we are supposed to be happy about a lily-white, silver-spoon-in-the-mouth snowflake baby.

[Catherine Vincent]

165. Not surprising. Nothing shocks me anymore.

There are some that would rather save stranded dogs and cats before people.

[Madspirit]

173. not the only

Humans are not the only life on the planet. They just act like they are.
I'll do all my own moral deciding, thank-you very much. I would save my own dogs and cats over almost anyone I know. I am not so enamored of my own, very destructive, malicious and murderous species. Lastly and once again, regardless of anything you think or say, I will make my own decisions on who climbs in my boat.
Madspirit

[BurtWorm]

167. Those weren't just any embryos.,,

:wtf:

[Manifestor_of_Light]

170. WHO gave the orders to refuse help that was ready and waiting?

There was an offshore ship waiting with supplies that was never used.
Even Fidel Castro sent a ship and help for Katrina which was refused.

The real criminals are the officials who STOPPED the helpers and supplies from coming in.
I'm thoroughly disgusted by this story too.

[lonestarnot]

172. This is just totally disgusting. No wonder we are so fucked up.

Peoples' priorities are so fucked.