A Poverty Of the Mind- Black Youth, Self Esteem & The "Cool-Pose" Culture

[KittyWampus]

Why have social scientists failed to explain/solve problem of millions of black youths who are disconnected from mainstream American life?

Their dogma focuses only on socioeconomic factors of which they see black youths as victims. They reject the possibility that Black Youth Culture itself and its distinctive attitudes, values and predispositions might influence how and why kids make their decisions.

A Poverty of the Mind
By ORLANDO PATTERSON

Cambridge, Mass.

snip

This is all standard explanatory fare. And, as usual, it fails to answer the important questions. Why are young black men doing so poorly in school that they lack basic literacy and math skills? These scholars must know that countless studies by educational experts, going all the way back to the landmark report by James Coleman of Johns Hopkins University in 1966, have found that poor schools, per se, do not explain why after 10 years of education a young man remains illiterate.

Nor have studies explained why, if someone cannot get a job, he turns to crime and drug abuse. One does not imply the other. Joblessness is rampant in Latin America and India, but the mass of the populations does not turn to crime.

And why do so many young unemployed black men have children — several of them — which they have no resources or intention to support? And why, finally, do they murder each other at nine times the rate of white youths?

snip

...The Clinton administration achieved exactly what policy analysts had long said would pull black men out of their torpor: the economy grew at a rapid pace, providing millions of new jobs at all levels. Yet the jobless black youths simply did not turn up to take them. Instead, the opportunity was seized in large part by immigrants — including many blacks — mainly from Latin America and the Caribbean.

One oft-repeated excuse for the failure of black Americans to take these jobs — that they did not offer a living wage — turned out to be irrelevant. The sociologist Roger Waldinger of the University of California at Los Angeles, for example, has shown that in New York such jobs offered an opportunity to the chronically unemployed to join the market and to acquire basic work skills that they later transferred to better jobs, but that the takers were predominantly immigrants.

Why have academics been so allergic to cultural explanations?

#1. the pervasive idea that cultural explanations inherently blame the victim; that they focus on internal behavioral factors and, as such, hold people responsible for their poverty, rather than putting the onus on their deprived environment. .. this is utterly bogus. To hold someone responsible for his behavior is not to exclude any recognition of the environmental factors that may have induced the problematic behavior in the first place. Many victims of child abuse end up behaving in self-destructive ways; to point out the link between their behavior and the destructive acts is in no way to deny the causal role of their earlier victimization and the need to address it.

Likewise, a cultural explanation of black male self-destructiveness addresses not simply the immediate connection between their attitudes and behavior and the undesired outcomes, but explores the origins and changing nature of these attitudes, perhaps over generations, in their brutalized past. It is impossible to understand the predatory sexuality and irresponsible fathering behavior of young black men without going back deep into their collective past.

#2. it is often assumed that cultural explanations are wholly deterministic, leaving no room for human agency. This, too, is nonsense. Modern students of culture have long shown that while it partly determines behavior, it also enables people to change behavior. People use their culture as a frame for understanding their world, and as a resource to do much of what they want. The same cultural patterns can frame different kinds of behavior, and by failing to explore culture at any depth, analysts miss a great opportunity to re-frame attitudes in a way that encourages desirable behavior and outcomes.

#3. it is often assumed that cultural patterns cannot change — the old "cake of custom" saw. This too is nonsense. Indeed, cultural patterns are often easier to change than the economic factors favored by policy analysts, and American history offers numerous examples.

snip

An anecdote helps explain why: Several years ago, one of my students went back to her high school to find out why it was that almost all the black girls graduated and went to college whereas nearly all the black boys either failed to graduate or did not go on to college. Distressingly, she found that all the black boys knew the consequences of not graduating and going on to college ("We're not stupid!" they told her indignantly).

SO why were they flunking out? Their candid answer was that what sociologists call the "cool-pose culture" of young black men was simply too gratifying to give up. For these young men, it was almost like a drug, hanging out on the street after school, shopping and dressing sharply, sexual conquests, party drugs, hip-hop music and culture, the fact that almost all the superstar athletes and a great many of the nation's best entertainers were black.

Not only was living this subculture immensely fulfilling, the boys said, it also brought them a great deal of respect from white youths. This also explains the otherwise puzzling finding by social psychologists that young black men and women tend to have the highest levels of self-esteem of all ethnic groups, and that their self-image is independent of how badly they were doing in school.

I call this the Dionysian trap for young black men. The important thing to note about the subculture that ensnares them is that it is not disconnected from the mainstream culture. To the contrary, it has powerful support from some of America's largest corporations. Hip-hop, professional basketball and homeboy fashions are as American as cherry pie. Young white Americans are very much into these things, but selectively; they know when it is time to turn off Fifty Cent and get out the SAT prep book.

For young black men, however, that culture is all there is — or so they think. Sadly, their complete engagement in this part of the American cultural mainstream, which they created and which feeds their pride and self-respect, is a major factor in their disconnection from the socioeconomic mainstream.

Of course, such attitudes explain only a part of the problem. In academia, we need a new, multidisciplinary approach toward understanding what makes young black men behave so self-destructively. Collecting transcripts of their views and rationalizations is a useful first step, but won't help nearly as much as the recent rash of scholars with tape-recorders seem to think. Getting the facts straight is important, but for decades we have been overwhelmed with statistics on black youths, and running more statistical regressions is beginning to approach the point of diminishing returns to knowledge.

The tragedy unfolding in our inner cities is a time-slice of a deep historical process that runs far back through the cataracts and deluge of our racist past. Most black Americans have by now, miraculously, escaped its consequences. The disconnected fifth languishing in the ghettos is the remains. Too much is at stake for us to fail to understand the plight of these young men. For them, and for the rest of us.

Orlando Patterson, a professor of sociology at Harvard, is the author of "Rituals of Blood: Consequences of Slavery in Two American Centuries."

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

1. Good lord.

If you want to figure out why black kids do poorly in school, look no further than white racists.

[KittyWampus]

2. are you suggesting the author is a racist? Or me? Because someone might suggest

that while social and economic factors effect us, they don't fully explain why some of us choose destructive behavior?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

3. You? No.

But anybody who thinks that the problem with black people is their cultural inferiority? Yes.

[KittyWampus]

6. Just for the record Orland Patterson is black.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

7. So is Alan Keyes.

:shrug:

[ulysses]

16. for what it's worth,

as someone who's spent the last three professional years teaching young black men and women (middle school aged) in Atlanta, the article rings pretty true, and is something I've heard echoed by my black colleagues. It's not a cultural inferiority, of course, but a lack of understanding of another alternative.

I'm willing to bet that Alan Keyes never wrapped cigarette-pack foil around his front teeth in an effort to mimick style on the cheap.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

18. ...

"I'm willing to bet that Alan Keyes never wrapped cigarette-pack foil around his front teeth in an effort to mimick style on the cheap."

No, but he's done a lot worse in order to garner votes from white republicans.

[ulysses]

25. sure.

And if I had been making a comparison of the human worth of Alan Keyes and the kids I've taught, the most troubled of my kids would win hands down. As it is, however, Keyes is sitting on his fat ass in a nice house somewhere tonight while some of my kids will be on the street for several more hours, hawking candy bars at best. If they go home tonight, one or more utilities is likely to be turned off when they arrive. It would be good to have a discussion about that.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

31. When I was a kid...

the big fasion among minority teenagers was zoot suits. A lot of old white people got upset about it. "Oh, it's a terrible waste of fabric!," they'd say. "Something should be done about it!" they'd say. Shit, there were even riots about it. I didn't see what the big deal was. Still don't. Nor do I see any fundamental difference between that, or wearing long hair, or wearing your baseball cap backwards, or sticking foil on your teeth. It's kids being kids.

"If they go home tonight, one or more utilities is likely to be turned off when they arrive. It would be good to have a discussion about that."

Yeah, how about raising the minimum wage for one, eh? And strengthening equal opportunity laws. And investing in the inner city.

[ulysses]

37. apples and oranges

You can take off a zoot suit or a grille, bootleg or not. But if you look at a line in a contract and say "What that is?", you can't take that off. We do a disservice to black kids when we don't offer them the language of wealth in this society.

Yeah, how about raising the minimum wage for one, eh? And strengthening equal opportunity laws. And investing in the inner city.

Amen and amen. Never meant to suggest that it was a one-dimensional discussion. :)

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

44. This is an old argument.

Going back to Booker T. Washington and how far black people should emulate white culture in order to be successful.

[ulysses]

51. indeed it is.

It's one, though, that needs to be tempered with understanding. Is it emulating white culture to teach a child to speak standard English in a business setting? If so, is it an acceptable thing? If it isn't acceptable, what are you going to offer in its place?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

54. It's one that will be debated long after we're gone.

"Is it emulating white culture to teach a child to speak standard English in a business setting?"

Certainly.

"If so, is it an acceptable thing? "

It certainly appears to be a necessary evil.

"If it isn't acceptable, what are you going to offer in its place?"

Cracking down racist employers would be a good start. And investing in the black community. And rejecting the notion that black culture, dialects, etc. is inferior.

[ulysses]

58. fine, but you're talking about changing the whole culture.

Cracking down racist employers would be a good start. And investing in the black community. And rejecting the notion that black culture, dialects, etc. is inferior.

A worthy thing, surely, but the work of some time. Meanwhile, I'd like to see my kids be able to get good jobs.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

62. I'm interested in preserving black culture.

I don't think it should have to change.

[ulysses]

65. two thoughts there:

1. Seems to me that all cultures are in a state of change. Black culture is no different. Besides which, "black culture" isn't the same in Atlanta as it is in Harlem.

2. The ability to speak standard English doesn't remove a person from the black vernacular, and that vernacular isn't going anywhere.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

72. Agreed on both.

Although the caveat to the second is that when you tell a kid they've got to learn "standard English" the unspoken deduction is that there's something wrong with AAVE, and the kid him or herself.

[AbbyR]

102. Do you really think so?

It seems to me that it's more teaching the child a second language. I do not speak the same way at home or with friends as I do in an academic or business setting. I clean up my speech because I know what is appropriate in different settings.

I ask this sincerely wanting an answer. I'm about to begin teaching again after a long time in the newspaper business. I will be teaching, by my own choice, in a mostly black, poor school district. I love books and writing and language and really want to help all my students be able to survive and thrive in their own culture as well as in a world culture. How would you suggest this be done? I'd been thinking along the "second language" lines, but would love other ideas.

[renate]

111. good luck with your new career!

I can tell from your post that you'll do a great job--not only do you love your subject, you're already trying to figure out the best way to help the kids reach their full potential in the world, not just your classroom.

Acknowledging that certain things are important to them when they're "off duty," with friends and family, will go a long way, I'd think, towards helping your students understand that other things are important in a work environment. Although most of us in the workplace understand that it's appropriate to behave differently at work and at home, I would guess that, given American history, black kids being told to change the way they talk to suit the rest of society are going to 1) be resentful and 2) suspect that white society is trying to get rid of black culture. I certainly would, anyway, if I were in the situation of having a perfectly good culture of my own and were told that I needed to speak or behave differently in order to get ahead in the bigger world. They may not realize that we all have to put on work faces, to a greater or lesser extent, unless someone actually explains that to them.

I'm totally not an expert in education or anything pertaining to your question, but I'd think that the idea of a "second language" (and different customs, etc) would help your kids understand that you're not trying to change them but just trying to add to their abilities.

[One_Life_To_Give]

115. Nobody saying to toss the baby with the bath water

Nobody is suggesting that any or all of anyones culture be discarded. But it is prudent to keep that which is best and most valuable of any and all cultures. But if someone believes they have a good case for why any particular part of any culture should be left behind. We should be able to discuss the relative merits of the argument.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

145. Ah...

but some people are saying that, and I think it's worth an effort to make sure that we don't.

[One_Life_To_Give]

173. Tis not the way you come across

Reading your posts, I at least had the impression. That you were insisting that we must keep all of your culture and any negative comment about any part of it was an assault on all of it and on all the people of AA decent.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

151. One Can Speak

One can speak "proper" English, "standard" English, or "American" and be authentically black...


It has nothing to with racist employers but wanting employees who can communicate effectively...


Now, if a person refuses to hire someone because of their race, creed, sexual orientation, etcetera he deserves a foot up his ass...

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

211. Yes, DSB.

Black people can speak in all the languages and all the dialects in the world.

"It has nothing to with racist employers but wanting employees who can communicate effectively..."

Ah, now there's the notion that people who speak AAVE can't communicate effectively.

[joe_sixpack]

140. You bring up a good point

You shouldn't have to emulate white culture completely in order to be successful, but how far, or how much should you rebel against it in order to simply create something you can call your own?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

212. Who said anything about rebeling against white culture?

That implies white culture had some sort of ownership over black culture to begin with.

[joe_sixpack]

219. Not at all

There is no implication that one culture is superior to the other. In the sixties there arose a youth counter-culture that rejected the principles of the previous generation. Much of their values seemed an antithesis of their parents. You have one culture that says that young kids should dress neatly and have clean cut hairstyles, so the other grows their hair long and wears tie-dye T-shirts and jeans and goes barefoot. One believes in saving sex for marriage, the other practices "free love." One group tends to favor a form of music that coincidentally seems to really rattle the other. Both of these groups have valid points and reasons why they believe as they do. Though one culture might be prevailing and dominant, it isn't necessarily better or more correct. So if there is a reluctance in the black community, especially among young males, to be seen as emulating what you call white culture, then it's a legitimate question to ask how much that reluctance itself actually affects and shapes their culture. Culture is dynamic and evolving. Obviously we're not speaking of black culture as it existed in Africa, before European slavery. We're talking of something that has adapted in the last 300 years or so.

[Shakespeare]

66. btw, the zoot suit riots had nothing to do with what you're talking about. n/t

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

68. Sure they did.

Kids wanted to be cool, and be nonconformist, and rebel against authority. White racists didn't like that. So they passed little racist laws against it. And the kids got beaten up by white conservatives, and cops, and it all boiled over.

[Shakespeare]

70. Um, no. They didn't even directly involve African-Americans.

Seriously, read up. It involved primarily Latino youths in Los Angeles. There were some African-Americans and Filipinos involved tangentially, but what drove those riots is not what you're alluding to.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoot_suit_riots

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

71. Yeah, I know it was Latino kids.

Like I said. Minority teenagers.

[Shakespeare]

74. But it wasn't the fashion that sparked the riots; that was incidental.

It was friction between soldiers cycling through LA on their way to the war (young white kids who'd been drafted) and the Latino kids, most of whom weren't wanted by the army. It wasn't the suits; it was that the white chicks really dug the Latino guys.

I'm not suggesting for a moment that racism wasn't behind the riots; clearly, it was. It's just that you seemed to be suggesting different motivations than what were actually there. For clarity's sake, that's all.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

78. Yes, that's what I'm saying.

Nobody hates baggy pants because they're baggy pants, people hate baggy pants because black kids are wearing them, and they already hated the black kids.

[Shakespeare]

88. Gotcha.

Wasn't sure where you were initially going with that. :hi:

[leftofthedial]

108. or perhaps it's because "baggy pants" are an absurd affectation

like many of the overt trappings of the subculture referenced in the OP

and are a visible part of an overall pattern of self-destruction

I work with at-risk youth, a high proportion of whom are African American. I have to say the article rings true. Some of the kids I work with actively choose to fail (at school, at jobs, etc.) because such failure is an expected and even valued component of their cultural self identity. It is a profoundly difficult mold to break.

[One_Life_To_Give]

113. No, I hate baggy pants period.

No matter who is wearing them. When baggy pants are falling off the back of someones arse. It should be everyones duty to help out and promptly drop them to the wearers ankles. }(

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

118. Well, there's also the old foggie factor.

Ooooo, flibbety floo! Kids these days with their baggy pants and not staying off my yard!

:P

[hfojvt]

106. something left out of the article

was the behaviour of young girls. The young black men found their behaviour rewarding. A huge reward for a young man is to have their pick of the young women. That is the entire culture of school to me though. Almost no, white or black, junior higher or high schooler has esteem for academics. You don't become popular by making the honor society - you do so either by looking sharp, acting tough, or making the football team, but you also have a father and mother setting curfews and telling you that you better not drop out or flunk out.

[KittyWampus]

128. Great point, though some young women do wake up when they get pregnant-

unfortunately it seems young men don't get that 'opportunity' to grow when faced with having to provide for a child.

Young women are partially forced by pregnancy to grow up a bit, face a larger reality and move forward in a more constructive way.

BTW, The author cited in the OP is called by some as having a 'black feminist' view.

Apparently there are differences in the way some black women view the cultural/socio-economic situation and the way men do.

IMO, it boils down to some black men wanting to entirely blame external forces (white imperilism/racism) and some black women pointing to the need to 'do it for ourselves'.

[Shakespeare]

137. True, except that they were Latino, not black. n/t

[Raksha]

94. I assumed he was black from reading the article.

Otherwise he would never have dared to publicly set forth those conclusions about black male culture. I thought what he said about white young people admiring and emulating hip-hop culture (but knowing when to turn it off!) was especially interesting.

[BoneDaddy]

97. It is funny

how in DU we have a selective eye for criticism. WE can criticize those we consider our "enemies" but god forbid we put that light upon a group that has been victimized in the past and present.

According to your logic, nothing critical can be said about black culture or else it is construed as racist, yet we can criticize republicans, christians, people with money or anyone else that falls in the "bad people" category.

Blind.

[KittyWampus]

129. Much that is in the OP article can be applied to 'white trash', fundie, freeper youth

[BoneDaddy]

162. True

but there seems to be a real fear of being labeled a racist if you happen to point out a negative phenomenon in the black community. That said there are tremendous positives regarding the black community, like there are in any culture.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

141. Yes, criticizing black culture would be racist.

Criticizing Christians would be bigotry as well.

"According to your logic, nothing critical can be said about black culture or else it is construed as racist, yet we can criticize republicans, christians, people with money or anyone else that falls in the "bad people" category."

You see, Bonedaddy, I judge people based upon the content of their character. Not the color of their skin.

Sound familiar?

[BoneDaddy]

160. No, you are not clear at all

All cultures are made up of positive and negative attributes. I come from an Irish cultural background and I can tell you there is plenty that is positive and negative about it. When any criticism is leveled at black culture, it is deemed racist. That is a shame and shows no real thinking process.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

210. Sorry, Charlie, that boat won't float.

If I say, "the problem with the Irish is they're a bunch of potato-eating, beer-swilling, wife beating papists," that's just plain bigotry.

The same goes for the idea that "the problem with black people is that they don't value a good education." It's just plain racism.

In fact, ever time a person says, "the problem with _______ people is-...."

Whatever they put after "is" is going to to be racist.

This isn't some crazy new age New York liberal political correctness. It's just basic human decency.

[BoneDaddy]

224. Thats really really funny

because I don't ever remember saying anything close to that... where do you get off putting such words in my mouth.

New age New york liberal? what the fuck are you talking about?

Lay off the pipe son, it's doing you damage

[qwlauren35]

204. But that's just it. There is NO Cultural INFERIORITY here.

These guys are getting pretty much EVERYTHING they want by their actions. Respect from white counterparts, girls, minimal school pressure (how can they pressure you if you don't care???)

If anything, they simply aren't mature enough to see what the future holds for them. And that's not cultural inferiority either. It's a common characteristic of youth.

The "answer" to this doesn't lie directly with the US government. Right now, YOUTH programs aren't going to do much good. But something that is very necessary is a bounce back plan for these kids when they get older and hit rock bottom. Because it's going to happen. And that's when they MIGHT be ready to listen to common sense and make some lifestyle changes.

However, we have a mindset that really goes against this. Why do I say this? Because the "boys" who fall into this trap often become felons. And America does not want to do anything for felons.

This is one of the places where things truly break down. By the time many black men are mature enough to consider how they want to live as adults, they have criminal records and the deck is stacked against them. Nevermind that their white colleagues did drugs at the same rate that they did, and probably sold them as well... we ARE notorious at locking up black men for crimes that whites commit with impunity. And immunity.

And look at what an out it gives American society. It's not "racist" to not hire felons....

It's clear to me that today's black youth are going to fall on their faces, and they will need second chances. But I am also convinced that 10-20 years down the road, if we break this cycle of excluding felons from society, we will see a re-emergence of black men who are prepared to raise a new generation of youth, and tell them first hand what happens to those who fall prey to the "cool culture".

I guarantee, there is NO ONE, except other black men, who will ever be able to talk black youth out of the mess they are getting themselves into.

When American society accepts the importance of black men (>25) as the key to community stabilization, and decides to find ways to help them establish themselves as breadwinners, there will be a lot of positive changes.

Until that happens... feggetaboutit.

[zanne]

98. Okay, I won't call you a racist.

I'll just think it.

[KittyWampus]

130. Why think I'm a racist. None of my black friends do. They agree largely w/OP.

And by 'my black friends' I mean people who celebrate birthdays and births with me, people who come to my house and who entertain me in theirs.

My spiritual group of over 10 years is appx. half black.

Thing is, they believe as I do in the need for personal responsibility as an aspect of creating and altering our personal environments.

Anyone can be a slave to circumstance and material reality.

The only way to free ourselves is to open our minds and widen our perspectives. And noone can do the necessary work for us. Others can put opportunity in place. But we have to WANT to change and be willing to fight for change.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

144. LOL.

I'm sorry. Not that I'm agreeing or disagreeing with anything Zanne said, but the "I'm not racist, I've got lots of black friends" thing always cracks me up.

[trekbiker]

208. you sound like one

of those black dudes I know that "deserve respect" without having to earn it. Or anything else. In my engineering world I have colleagues of every color and nationality and respect is based upon intelligence, ability, communication skills, etc. The young black engineer in my dept I am currently training is one of the brightest, most articulate trainees in my experience. He's from Kenya. Been in America 8 years and will go far. Thankfully, he was never exposed to that sick, corrupted inner city black "culture".

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

214. Black dudes who think they deserve respect?!

Oh my odds and bodkins! How uppity!

[joe_sixpack]

220. They do deserve respect

for what you said earlier, the content of their character, their abilities, their humanity but not simply for the color of their skin.

[Rage for Order]

14. What a ridiculous assertion

Yes, black children do poorly in school because of white racists. It couldn't possibly be because of their peers calling them "uncle toms" or telling them they are "acting white" when they get good grades and do well in school. And it absolutely cannot have any relation to the lack of parental involvement in the children's educations. And it absolutely, positively can't be related to the inordinately high rate of births to single mothers who are barely removed from adolescence themselves. No, you're right. If there were no racists in the world, all of the problems regarding lack of regard for education in the black community, particularly among young black men, would disappear overnight.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

23. I see two hypothetical reasons...

why blacks do more poorly in schools.

1. They're somehow inferior- culturally, criminally, physically, etc.

2. Institutionalized racism.

I'm picking the latter.

"No, you're right. If there were no racists in the world, all of the problems regarding lack of regard for education in the black community, particularly among young black men, would disappear overnight."

Then we're agreed.

[Rage for Order]

39. There can't be more than 2 hypothetical reasons?

1. "They're somehow inferior - culturally, criminally, physically, etc"

Obviously not true, except for "gangsta" culture which, sadly, too many black youths choose to embrace. A culture which degrades women as "bithces and ho's", glorifies violence, and promotes the idea that you have more "street cred" if you've shot someone or spent some time in prison. This is not a workable model if you want to make a positive contribution to society.

2. "Institutionalized racism".

That's a cop out. How do explain minority students performing poorly in schools that are staffed by minority educators and are overseen by mostly minority school boards? If it were due to "institutionalized racism", the performance of students at said schools should've increased dramatically as minority educators and administrators began running the schools and school districts. Unfortunately, this has not been the case.

So I propose a 3rd hypothetical reason (but certainly there are others): education is not seen as something that is "cool". There aren't any outspoken black role models telling kids that the most important thing they can do to get ahead in life is to stay in school and get an education. Their parents aren't involved enough in the children's daily school activities, such as making sure that the children do their homework prior to going out to hang out with friends, completing all of their assignments, and taking school seriously. My belief is that parents who care and stay involved in their children's education is the most important element in determining whether a child will be successful in school and, down the road, in life, regardless of skin color.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

53. Your third hypothetical is a rehashing of the first.

i.e. black culture is inferior since they don't care about school and have good role models and they don't take care of their kids.


"except for "gangsta" culture which, sadly, too many black youths choose to embrace. A culture which degrades women as "bithces and ho's", glorifies violence, and promotes the idea that you have more "street cred" if you've shot someone or spent some time in prison. This is not a workable model if you want to make a positive contribution to society."

You mean the "gangsta" culture so beloved by white teens? That gangsta culture?

[Rage for Order]

63. That's disingenuous

To claim that I said black culture is inferior is to put words in my mouth. Yes, "gangsta" culture is poisonous, and those who embrace it will likely fare much worse in life than those who do not. There is a big difference between kids who listen to rap music and those who take the message of the music to heart, believing it is a great way to live life. So yes, the "gangsta" sub-culture is inferior. That is not the same as saying black culture is inferior. And any white teens who embrace gangsta culture are just as idiotic as any black teens who do so.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

67. I'm not saying you're agree that it's inferior.

I'm saying that the belief that "black people are anti-intellectual, and don't have good role models, and don't take good care of their kids" is a belief already summed up in hypthestis #1.

"There is a big difference between kids who listen to rap music and those who take the message of the music to heart, believing it is a great way to live life."

Nobody ever joined a gang because they heard rap music and thought it was cool. Kids join gangs because society's abandoned them, and they've got no where else to go.

Now gangsta rap, on the other hand, is not "poisonous." Indeed, it's one of the most fundamentally important art forms of the late twentieth century. It is unique, and artistic, and noble, and good. Anybody who rejects it because of its subject matter is, IMHO, an idiot. Regardless of race.

[Rage for Order]

73. Not the rap, the culture

I agree that gansta rap isn't poisonous anymore than heavy metal with satanic overtones is poisonous. What is poisonous is taking the message of the music to heart and deciding to live your life according to the messages contained in the music. After all, most of the artists producing the music aren't living the lifestyle their singing about. Admittedly some did in the past, but there's a reason they aren't living that lifestyle anymore: they woke up (plus they got rich).

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

76. Rap is part of the culture.

And, like I said, no black kid every joined a gang because of "gangsta culture" any more then white kids shot up their school because of their heavy metal culture.

[Rage for Order]

80. I'm not arguing cause and effect of music

I'm not saying that kids join gangs because of rap music or that kids shoot up their school because of heavy metal music. The kids need more people telling them that school is important, they need their parents looking over their shoulders to ensure they are completing their assignments, and they need parents who are involved on a daily basis, not just when report cards come out or they are told that their child is being held back a grade due to poor performance. The peer pressure of gangster culture is just one more complication in the equation.

[dionysus]

139. hahahahahhahahahah

"Indeed, it's one of the most fundamentally important art forms of the late twentieth century. It is unique, and artistic, and noble, and good. Anybody who rejects it because of its subject matter is, IMHO, an idiot. Regardless of race."

that is possibly the dumbest thing i have ever heard...

you're defending the mistreatment of women and glorification of empty violence as good? oh lordy...

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

146. That's a shame.

I pity people who can't appreciate rap. It's like a part of them has already died inside.

[joe_sixpack]

147. Idiot here

because I don't agree about gangsta rap. Now if you were talking about hip hop, or rap music in general, I would agree that it is unique and artistic and a viable form of creative music. It's the same about rock and roll. One can make positive statements about rock and roll while still deploring sub catagories such as thrash or death metal or even the vacuousness of much of pop. It is funny that we have no trouble admitting a large part of popular music is crap. But gangsta rap seems to have this protected status whereby the only thing one is allowed to say, is how it's a creative, unique form of expression and all has to be taken seriously.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

152. Gangsta rap is art.

Art is not something to agree or disagree with.

One doesn't have to like it, but one cannot say that it is not art.

[KittyWampus]

50. you forgot #3. they don't WANT to do well in school, prefer not to and to spend their energy

hanging out on street corners.

They simply don't choose the alternative of scholastic achievment or value it.

And the author says that it is false that blacks in all black schools taunt those who achieve in school. This mainly happens in mixed race schools.\

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

56. No, I didn't forget it.

That's hypothesis #1.

And I rejected it.

[zanne]

99. But you're not a racist, right?

You just happen to have the same opinions racists do. Nobody is a racist anymore; at least nobody can be called a racist. You can spew racist speech, but if I call you a racist, I'm overreacting and not thinking things through, right? So If I told you your kids were ugly, it would be alright with you as long as I said "Your kids are ugly, but no offense"?

[hfojvt]

109. why would a racist want black kids to succeed?

Why not let them shoot each other and goto prison? Isn't that what a racist would want? To say that gangsta culture is inferior is not racist unless gansta culture is the only possible black culture or the best possible black culture. I would have thought that New Orleans Jazz and Mo-town were also black culture.

[BoneDaddy]

96. Give me a break

Not everything can be left at the doorstep of racism. There is a phenomenon called personal accountability. Not the personal responsibility, "pull yourself up by your bootstraps republican version" but ultimately, the responsibility falls on the individual for their actions. Of course racism plays a part, but if you know ANYTHING about empowerment, the first step begins and ends with you, the individual.

This phenomenon of the culture of victimization is staggering.

[KittyWampus]

132. The opening post does mention the problem that racists SO use the "pull bootstraps" argument

And it's very easy to dismiss the intended message because of that.

[BoneDaddy]

164. Correct

but there is an small element of truth in it. Ultimately, the individual MUST make the choice. To blame racism as the TOTAL reason is intellectually dishonest and takes power away from the person, who is primarily the one responsible for his or her life.

[Freddie Stubbs]

200. How does racism cause African-American males to go poorly compared to

African-American females? Do African-American females have some kind of magic power which protects them against racism?

[manic expression]

4. I'm not a hunter

"I'm not a hunter but i am told,
that, uh, in places like in the arctic,
where indiginous people sometimes might, might, hunt a wolf,
they'll take a double edged blade,
and they'll put blood on the blade,
and they'll melt the ice and stick the handle in the ice,
so that only the blade is protruding,
and that a wolf will smell the blood and wants to eat,
and it will come and lick the blade trying to eat,
and what happens is when the wolf licks the blade,
of course, he cuts his tongue, and he bleeds,
and he thinks he's really having a good thing,
and he drinks and he licks and he licks,
and of course he is drinking his own blood and he kills himself,
thats what the Imperialists did with us with crack cocaine,
you have these young brothers out there who think they are getting something
they gonna make a living with,
they is getting something they can buy a car,
like the white people have cars, why can't i have a car?
they getting something they can get a piece of gold,
white people have gold, why can't i have gold?
they getting something to get a house,
white people have a house, why can't i have a house?
and they actually think that theres something thats bringing resources to them,
but they're killing themsleves just like the wolf was licking the blade,
and they're slowly dying without knowing it.
thats whats happening to the community, you with me on that?
thats exactly, precisely what happens to the community,
and instead of blaming the hunter who put the damn handle and blade in the ice
for the wolf,
that what happens is the wolf gets the blame, gets the blame for trying to live,
thats what happens in our community,
you don't blame the person, the victim,
you blame the oppressor, Imperialism, white power is the enemy,
was the enemy when it first came to Africa,
and snatched up the first African brothers here against our will,
isss the enemy today,
and thats the thing that we have to understand."

-Dead Prez, "Wolves"

[annabanana]

26. damn, that's good. . . . .n/t

[manic expression]

5. This is another post I made on roughly the same subject

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=3043977&mesg_id=3045933

[bluewave]

8. We've given up on them by allowing Ebonics, etc. in schools

There is no discipline in schools. Proper English is not taught. Pants hang down exposing rear ends. Black kids who want to do well academically are shunned and hazed by other blacks. No attempt is made to integrate them. Sad really. And speaking from experience.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

9. Yes. Baggy pants.

That's what's wrong with the black kids these days.

:eyes:

"Black kids who want to do well academically are shunned and hazed by other blacks."

As opposed to white kids. Who hold nerds and geeks in the highest esteem.

[bluewave]

11. BTW, those traits apply to whites too.

Geeks are shunned for perceived antisocial behavior. Not for good grades and proper English.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

13. Yes, exactly.

Teenagers of all races every where want to rebel and be cool.

Singling this out among black teenagers and arguing that it is why they're failing in schools is racism.

[bluewave]

15. Yes, but there's a difference between normal teenage rebellion

and never learning (or rather, being taught) proper English to an extent needed to succeed in life. We can debate what exactly "succeed" means, but I will say it precludes them from highly paid professions such as doctors, lawyers, CPA/business, etc.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

17. There's no such thing as "proper English."

Queen Latifah's English is just as good as Queen Elizabeth's.

"We can debate what exactly "succeed" means, but I will say it precludes them from highly paid professions such as doctors, lawyers, CPA/business, etc."

Well in order to fix that problem, we'd have to fix racist hiring practices in those positions.

[KittyWampus]

19. We also have to address the problem of kids not WANTING to become doctors but preferring

life on the street corner.

Again, why does it seem so hard to consider that it isn't JUST about social and economic factors but an individual's conscious decisions as well along with their values and attitudes?

On some important level individuals must take responsibility for themselves.

And you and I need to extend helping hands and confront those trying to slap them down and hold them back for whatever reason.

And Johnny Cochran didn't seem to be willing to let other's bias hold him down.

[bluewave]

22. That's also true.

Science has been virtually abandoned by natives as "not cool." We should never have to import our scientists and doctors.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

24. Nobody wants to live on a street corner.

They end up there because they see no real alternative. Because despite how hard they try they run into a racist teacher or coach or boss who treats them worse then the white kid next to them, for the same behaviour.

"And Johnny Cochran didn't seem to be willing to let other's bias hold him down."

Yeah, this comment pops up a lot. "Michael Jordan drives a nice ferrari, therefore any black kid can succeed and racism isn't really a problem." Doesn't carry any weight with me.

[bluewave]

29. I don't think anyone wants to live on a street corner

I agree there. But I also think that it is not necessarily a racist coach holding them back. I think it's more racist to let them slide through the system, passing them at every grade level despite not possessing proficient English and math skills.

I'm not the culture warrior. If they want to know Ebonics I will be the first to encourage a broadened horizon. As long as English is also taught alongside any other foreign language.

My cousin is from Texas and he complained that nobody would hire him in the north due to his accent. I wish they would also teach southern whites proper English. It really hurts them.

[AbbyR]

104. Southern white here

I assure you, there is nothing wrong with my spoken or written English.

[KittyWampus]

32. I didn't state racism isn't a problem or imply it. That resort to a straw man shows a weakness

in your attempt to make a point.

And kids aren't going to see an alternative unless they WANT to.

And if you read the article I posted, it presents the case of black immigrants who do NOT allow the problems you want to cite as being insurmountable to keep them from taking jobs and moving up the economic/social ladder.

Again, I and the author cited do not say there is no racism, or that there are not social and economic factors negatively effecting black kids.... but that is NOT ALL THERE IS TO THE EQUATION>

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

36. I'm not saying you stated it.

I'm saying the argument "Well, Johnny Cochran's rich and successful, why can't black kids be more like him?" is not a very good argument.

[KittyWampus]

46. But it helps show there's more to the equation than racism/socio-economic factors

because if some blacks can do it- it CAN be done.

And it is almost too obvious to point out, but yet you seem to resist it, the reason some blacks from crappy backgrounds succeed is because they WANTED to. They had the DRIVE. They DIDN'T WANT the life in the hood.

And yes, there were probably people and policies along the way to help them (hopefully).

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

57. No, it doesn't.

They're the exceptions that prove the rule.

"And it is almost too obvious to point out, but yet you seem to resist it, the reason some blacks from crappy backgrounds succeed is because they WANTED to. They had the DRIVE. They DIDN'T WANT the life in the hood."

All blacks want to succeed. All blacks have drive. Just as much as white people. The difference is that black people get it crushed out of them by institutionalized racism.

[ulysses]

28. yes, well.

On some important level individuals must take responsibility for themselves.

Many literally don't know how, much as they would like to do so.

[bluewave]

20. I don't believe that is the case.

Is it racist to expect a doctor to learn a nearly foreign language like Ebonics? It's like requiring doctors to understand Spanish and other foreign languages as a prerequisite to the profession. The profession won't be changed. Why can't we require the teaching of grammar and proper English speaking? There's nothing racist in being proficient in your country's language.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

27. Well then we'll have to disagree.

"Is it racist to expect a doctor to learn a nearly foreign language like Ebonics?"

Ebonics is not "a nearly foreign language." It's a dialect. There's a bigger difference between an uppercrust southern dialect and an uppercrust english dialect then there is between an uppercrust southern dialect an ebonics. Nobody pretends that upper crust English people are inferior, or pretends that they can't understand them.

[bluewave]

35. It is. But even though I listened to rap in my youth

(like Tupac Shakur) I still can't understand much of it. Despite my experience! Maybe I'm ignorant, but I can honestly say there isn't a racist bone in my body.

But that's why I like DU. I can dissent (unlike another site I know) and I won't be banned. :D

[ulysses]

30. no, but there is standard English.

Queen Latifah's English is just as good as Queen Elizabeth's.

Perhaps, but Queen Latifah's isn't going to open the same doors. From my position as an educator, it seems more realistic (maybe more humane?) to teach a child to be, essentially, bilingual in order to empower her to rise than to rail against those who hesitate to hire a person who doesn't speak standard English in the workplace.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

33. That's a great intention.

But it's not going to help when the employer throws out the kid's application because he's got the name "Jamaal" without ever talking to him to begin with.

Some people suggest just giving black kids less ebonic sounding names like "Ted" and "Nancy."

But I don't think that's going to help anything either.

[bluewave]

38. I agree there. Nobody should be discrimminated against

because of their name. I can only hope that as this country becomes more diverse, it becomes profitable to have diverse perspectives from people named "Jamaal."

[SemperEadem]

110. well, some would call that psychotic hope

I am a well spoken, articulate black woman who writes well. About 25 years ago, I was living in Texas, working for a temp agency. I accepted a job as a receptionist at some company--worked at the front desk, forwarded calls, etc. I knew what I was doing and I was doing my job well when about 3 hours into the job, the temp agency called me and asked me if I was having any problems. I said, "no", everything was going well, the people seemed nice and the woman who briefed me on my duties was pleased with me. The agency liason then said that I was to leave at noon and wouldn't be needed to work out the rest of the day there. I asked her why and she said that, off the record, she believed that one of the senior managers about lost his mind that a black woman was at their front desk and he didn't want clients coming in and seeing a black woman--that he wanted a white woman there, so they were going to take me off my assignment.

I have a very English name; I speak the Queen's English as well as write it--my resume got past these people until they laid eyes on me and had a cow over how I looked. I don't get in the habit of engaging in the psychotic hope of change over something that a segment of the population is proud of embracing.

[bluewave]

127. That's really sad. I can only try to empathize with your poor

treatment at the hands of these people. The only advice I can give people in your situation (it may sound bad, I apologize ahead of time) is to move north. My cousin lives in Texas and complains often about the backwardness of certain regions down there. Though it no doubt exists here somewhere, I haven't been able to detect any in Seattle.

We would be glad to have you. :D

[SemperEadem]

225. Actually, I went west then north

LA, then NY and now DC... Trust me... I'm still trying to figure out a way to live in Seattle--I visted there once about 10 years ago and loved it.

[UndertheOcean]

142. You should have sued them , this is infuriarating.

n/t

[bluewave]

159. I initially thought the same thing. Then I remembered: Texas jury. nt

[ulysses]

47. heh

Jamaal isn't the half of it. The name thing is another area I've heard my colleages discussing, sometimes heatedly. I don't see the need for Ted or Nancy, though.

But again, apples & oranges. I have a Quintrevious this year who goes by Trey - but if he can't at least put on the trappings of business when he needs to, how is he not going to be stuck in the ghetto? And at what point is it no longer all racism when he's stuck there?

[tigereye]

186. your arguments are shallow and fallacious

"But it's not going to help when the employer throws out the kid's application because he's got the name "Jamaal" without ever talking to him to begin with."

I see plenty of A-A kids working everywhere, where I live. Some are polite and motivated, and some are not. Just the same as the Caucasian kids.

and

"All blacks want to succeed. All blacks have drive. Just as much as white people. The difference is that black people get it crushed out of them by institutionalized racism."

Many folks have drive, intelligence and want sucess. There isn't one simple reason why they don't suceed. To blame it all on institutionalized racism is absurd and simplistic. That is what the original article was saying.

[alcibiades_mystery]

41. Of course you teach children from different discourse communities

to play the scales. That should go without saying.

And really, no matter how "well" we train people to speak in the language of power, they will continue to speak their primary language within their social group and at rhetorically necessary times.

The point, I should think, as an educator myself, would be to teach the language of power (the so-called standard English, used by so few people as to be nearly laughable) without casting unnecessary aspersions on the primary language of the learners, just as we do not teach junior high school students French by telling them that English is a lazy and stupid language and largely "incorrect." The point would be to draw on the primary language in order to HELP teach the secondary language. And it is a pure social fact that large populations of Americans speak AAVE as their primary language.

[ulysses]

55. exactly so.

And really, no matter how "well" we train people to speak in the language of power, they will continue to speak their primary language within their social group and at rhetorically necessary times.

I have friends who speak candidly about the experience of being bilingual in this way. I see nothing wrong with it, and as far as I can tell, neither do they.

The point, I should think, as an educator myself, would be to teach the language of power (the so-called standard English, used by so few people as to be nearly laughable) without casting unnecessary aspersions on the primary language of the learners

Right - why we don't use the phrase "correct English" any more, for instance.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

52. Barbara Jordan didn't speak in Ebonics

Barbara Jordan started out with NOTHING in the Fifth Ward in Houston N.E. of Downtown. Its nickname is "The Bloody Nickel" because of the crime rate.

She learned proper English so she could advance. Maybe it's selling out, but she earned the respect of all America and taught the good ole boys like Lyndon to respect her because she was smarter than they were.

Speaking of subcultures, crappy redneck grammar won't get you any points either. I get so mad when I hear the horrible grammar the talking heads on TV use. They don't know about past perfect tenses and just add "ing" to verbs. And they modify the unmodifiable, like "unique" becomes "Most unique" or perfect becomes "most perfect".
AGGGHHH!!!

[alcibiades_mystery]

59. When Barbara Jordan is with her folks in a hush harbor

You can bet your sweet bloody nickel that she speaks African American Vernacular English.

Don't know what a hush harbor is? Exactly.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

84. You really don't know much about history

Barbara Jordan can't go to a hush harbor. Because she died in 1996 at the age of 60. Her funeral was broadcast all over the country and President Clinton spoke at it.

She's been dead over ten years.

Look up her House Judiciary Committee speech, or her 1976 Democratic Convention keynote speech.

[alcibiades_mystery]

87. Hush harbors have been around since the days of slavery

And can be seen in many locations, like the salon or the barbershop. Your wikipedia expedition shows that you really don't get it.

The point is simple, in any case: Barbara Jordan certainly spoke a version of AAVE in particular circumstances, and it was likely the primary language that she learned. She may have even used generic forms and organizational structures drawn from AAVE when she spoke "standard" English.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

60. There's no such thing as "proper English."

As I've already explained.

"Maybe it's selling out, but she earned the respect of all America and taught the good ole boys like Lyndon to respect her because she was smarter than they were."

Lyndon, of course, didn't speak "proper English" but nobody held it against him.

Not that I'm understanding what Barbara Jordan has to do with this, any more than Johnnie Cochran.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

90. Have you ever watched and listened to a Barbara Jordan speech?

The speech about not being a party to the destruction, the subversion, the diminution of the Constitution, she made, as a member of the House Judiciary Committee, to the nation, was echoing in my sleep--I heard it many times.

My partner and I put together an Educational CD-ROM with OVER AN HOUR of archival footage from the Texas Southern University archives and KHOU-TV. We tried to sell it to her church as a fund raiser for a community center in the Fourth Ward, where it was sorely needed. At that time, shortly after her death, the costs of production were prohibitively expensive.

It never happened. Want to know why? Because the preacher wanted ALL the money. We only wanted some of the money because we spent a year of our lives working on it as a labor of love, and had NO other income. We just wanted to be compensated. We wanted to show little kids everywhere, black or white, that they can work hard and make a difference. But the preacher wanted ALL the money more than he wanted to help little black kids with the example of his most famous and lauded parishoner.

So don't tell me what Barbara Jordan did or didn't do. We don't know what she did in private.

[One_Life_To_Give]

116. Raacist that the rest of the board doesn't understand

Is it racist to expect at a meeting or in the board room everyone speak the same language. So that all can both understand and be understood?

IF I have a choice between two candidates with MSEE's and one can communicate fluently with the rest of the team while another cannot. Who do you think I should hire?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

143. I'm Confused.

If a young African American boy or girl wants to succeed in the United States shouldn't he or she be encouraged to speak "proper" English. I would think you could substitute any race or ethnic group for African American and the statement would be true.

We should all celebrate our differences but there should be an agreement on some common language...

[manic expression]

40. Most African Americans

who know "Ebonics" also know "White English", it's not like they aren't exposed to white English. You can hear conversations in urban dialects one second and then hear the exact same people speak completely differently another.

And please, anti-intellectualism, lack of interest in academics and more is something shared by all groups in the US. That is certainly NOT what is holding minorities back. What is holding them back is the fact that they have, among other things, no role models, no support, practically nothing to look forward to, challenges in everyday life that we can scarcely imagine, no incentive and no real place to belong.

[alcibiades_mystery]

42. Nor is anti-intellectualism particularly new, nor is the cool pose

I mean, jeez, didn't Gwendolyn Brooks write a snazzy little poem about this very thing years ago?

[bluewave]

49. I didn't say that the language is the ONLY thing

I agree with the rest of the things you point out: the challenges, no role models, etc. There is an enormous number of factors, from societal to educational. The language thing, however, seems easily correctable. Simply teach it. You're giving them a much better chance from the start.

The anti-intellectualism is simply something I observed at a mostly white public HS a few years ago. I'm no scientist, I'm not making a scientific hypothesis. But I observed it with regularity and one of the black exiles become one of my best friends.

[KittyWampus]

81. And along with the socio-economic factors you cite is also the DESIRE for more.

You just said kids know there's "white english". They also know about schools and jobs.

But they CHOOSE not to go after them because they don't value them.

They aren't animals in the arctic. They may exist as such. But they need not do so.

They are self aware human beings with the potential of seeing what goes on in the world, assessing the situation and using their innate capacity for discrimination before engaging in certain behaviors.

What is also holding these kids back is not just racism. It is racism in part, but not JUST racism.

Although I'm sure it makes some blacks feel better about themselves to believe it's ALL someone else's fault (the imperialist white man) the same way alcoholics blame others for everything that goes wrong.

That is the point the author makes in the opening article. And he makes the analogy of kids sucking up this gangsta culture to drug addiction.

It is racism but it is not JUST racism.

Your loved ones can drag you into rehab a hundred times. But you aren't going to kick the habit until you WANT to and make the conscious decision to do so. And you then stop going to the bar to hang out with your old friends. And you look the other way when you see beer commercials on tv. And you learn to feel good about yourself without a drink in your hand. No matter how fucking much easier it is to go back into the comfort of having another drink. And you do all that every minute of every day.

Apparently according to you and the lyricist/poet you quoted above, SOME blacks are dumb animals blindly reacting without the capacity to consciously realize what's going on and changing the dynamics of the situation.

I cannot accept that view of fellow human beings.

[manic expression]

85. You miss the point

consistently.

First of all, every group of kids in this country, white, black, latino, asian alike are anti-intellectual. Why are you holding blacks accountable for both a trait that is shared by ALL ETHNIC GROUPS and for the challenges that even you can see?

Simply put, their schools SUCK, their books SUCK, their role models SUCK their neighborhoods SUCK, they HAVE PRACTICALLY NOTHING TO LOOK FORWARD TO, and yet you sit there and criticize THEM for not getting what they realistically CAN'T GET?! Schools? They don't have any resources to start out with, and that's not mentioning the lack of academic interest THAT EVERY GROUP IN THE US UNDENIABLY DISPLAYS. Jobs? Yeah, like the ones that you can barely pay rent with? Those jobs give you scarcely enough to survive and THAT IS IT. Yeah, real great incentive they got there. :eyes:

Blacks in this country are treated EXACTLY like hunters treat those wolves in the arctic. They dangle riches in front of their faces and watch as they self-destruct in their pursuit of it. In WANTING WHAT THEY ARE DENIED, they hurt themselves.

IF YOU GOT THE MESSAGE, YOU WOULD UNDERSTAND THAT.

People who have nothing will try to get something for themselves. They don't have any real schools, their jobs pay nothing, so they self-destruct in search of what they want and need (oh, and about "not having the capacity to realize what's going on", that's the story of every lower class in history, that's the story of the entire country that voted Bush into power TWICE, that's the story of MOST OF AMERICA, so don't try that line. They engage in such behavior because of the conditions they are forced to live in, not because of some choice they don't have).

OF COURSE, IF YOU GOT THE MESSAGE, YOU WOULD UNDERSTAND THAT, BUT YOU DIDN'T GET THE MESSAGE.

Instead, you singled them out for something every ethnic group does and blamed them for the lack of resources, the lack of incentive, the lack of role models, the lack of ANYTHING TO LOOK FORWARD TO, the lack of SANITY IN DAILY LIFE. You blamed the victim.

[shanti]

91. i dunno about that

the most popular kids in my (mostly white) high school were also the brightest. and wealthiest kids in the school....well, expect for a korean girl whose father was a doctor. :shrug:

[KittyWampus]

10. according to the author, blacks who excel aren't necessarily ostracized in all-black schools

this mainly happens in more racially mixed schools.

I don't know the validity of that.

[alcibiades_mystery]

34. There is standard English (that would be the language of power)

but only the most retrograde - and, quite frankly, racist - still talk in terms of "proper" English.

Ebonics - or as professional linguists call it, African American Vernacular English (AAVE), is not "taught" in any school in the country. It does, however, happen to be the primary language spoken by a sizeable population of Americans. Moreover, there is nothing linguistically wronmg or "lazy" about AAVE (another outright racist notion). It is as legitimate a variation on so-called "standard" English as any other. It is, needless to say, impossible for any language to be "wrong" of it is highly regular and functional, as AAVE is. Indeed, AAVE even improves on standard English in a number of ways from the point of view of linguistic efficiency (by eliminating unnecessary inflections, for instance).

But then, you don't know anything about any of this, despite speaking from so-called "experience." Just more of the usual know-nothingism from racist moralists.

[bluewave]

43. Again, go ahead and know AAVE

along with proper English. Yes I said it, there is a proper English. It's the English that gets you hired for jobs. It's a sad reality and it shows no sign of changing any time soon. When I have kids some day I will teach them proper English because I care for them and wish them success. If the mother is white, black, Latino, Arab, etc I will encourage learning of other languages (perhaps even his/her mother's ancestral language), but I will give him/her the best chance of success in life. That's all I wish for anyone.

[alcibiades_mystery]

48. You can say it all you want

You call it "proper" English, that's just straight out racism. Nobody who studies language or understands its functioning refers to standard American English as "proper" English anymore, because the term contains a moral connotation that is detritus from a racist (and classist) past. It should be dispensed with. By your own description, the so-called "proper" English is nothing more than the language of power in our society. That's clear enough, and represents the imperative for learning standard English. Nobody denies that imperative, and you still haven't supported your initial contention, utterly false, that ANY school teaches "Ebonics." I suppose you feel free to just throw out random false assertions - maybe that also helps people get hired. And if you do have kids, I can only hope that they learn something other than uncritically insisting on racist terminology just for the pride of it. Good luck, in any case.

[bluewave]

61. Where did I say schools teach Ebonics? lol

I'm saying the school is negligent by failing to correct it. I don't study languages. This isn't an academic treatise on languages. It's a basic reality that everyone can see. The use of the term "proper English" is a debate of semantics and is irrelevant to my idea.

If you care for a person's well-being, you will teach them non-dialectic, standard American English.

[alcibiades_mystery]

69. You don't need to correct it

Anymore than you would teach people Spanish by correcting their English. That's stupid.

As for reality that anyone can see, I'll tell you about the reality that I see. I teach writing - both first year composition and advanced composition (such as business and technical writing). Your way doesn't work. It is a failure. And perhaps you should read the academic literature, since your utter ignorance is leading you not only to false conclusions, but to racist statements.

Until you sit down with black students who are remarkably literate and persuasive and eloquent in AAVE but functionally illiterate in standard English, you have jack shit to say to me. Until you work with those students in two hour conferences outside of class, week after week, you have jack shit to say to me. Until you see that what works is not "correcting" their primary language, but drawing on its structures to teach standard English, you have jack shit to say to me. Until those students begin to succeed, in your class, and in their other classes, and until those students send you notes from their jobs thanking you for being a hard-ass, you have jack shit to say to me.

The fact is that you don't know a damn thing about language instruction, despite your claims to experience. I understand your position. When I was new at this, I thought it was all about "correcting" their "incorrect" language as well. And then I started listening, and reading the literature, and working hands-on with kids, and I saw it wasn't about that at all, and that was just a racist presumption of mine (I too thought I didn't have a "racist bone in my body" - and I didn't; I just had a bunch of racist assumptions about language, like you). When it's real kids, and not just an ideological position to trumpet on internet bulletin boards, your understanding of what counts as "reality" changes drastically, I assure you. Perhaps you should try it.

[bluewave]

75. Then it is as you say. I have "jack shit to say to you." Therefore

I will stop. I have said my piece and given you my experiences and views. And I don't find your argument persuasive, especially since it has achieved very little so far.

I hope success is found with your approach, but I fear it will not.

[alcibiades_mystery]

79. Since you have zero to do with education

And since your "way" is merely internet huffing and puffing, I really couldn't care less about your thinly-veiled racist ideas. I just hope your way loses power in our society so we can actually get some teaching done, those of us who actually teach.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

114. Why are you calling someone a racist over a semantic distinction?

What difference does it make whether one calls it "proper English" or "standard English"? It means the same thing; it is the dialect of English used most often in business and professional settings in America.

So you think you're superior because you use a slightly different term to describe the exact same thing?

[bluewave]

121. Yes, apparently the debate does not concern a child's wellbeing

but the term I use. Frankly, I hope he is not a teacher as he claims. When confronted with an opposing idea he fires back invectives and obscene language. I don't think a person like this is fit to teach children.

[alcibiades_mystery]

124. Nice try

Your term hurts people in practice. That is why I question it. So, that's all about well-being.

I have responded to you with substance throughout. I'll let my teaching awards speak to whether I am fit to teach. You, clearly, are not. But it doesn't matter, since you do not teach anyway. Far easier to spout anti-intellectual nonsenses from the sidelines, I suppose.

[bluewave]

125. I wonder what they would think if they knew you ranted like this:

"Until you sit down with black students who are remarkably literate and persuasive and eloquent in AAVE but functionally illiterate in standard English, you have jack shit to say to me. Until you work with those students in two hour conferences outside of class, week after week, you have jack shit to say to me. Until you see that what works is not "correcting" their primary language, but drawing on its structures to teach standard English, you have jack shit to say to me. Until those students begin to succeed, in your class, and in their other classes, and until those students send you notes from their jobs thanking you for being a hard-ass, you have jack shit to say to me."

Leads me to believe you are emotionally unstable. I'm glad your students never challenged your opinion on things. I doubt this sort of sophomoric behavior would be tolerated at a PTA meeting. Which is why I question your credentials.

[alcibiades_mystery]

156. My students challenge my opinions all the time

I encourage it.

I see nothing wrong with telling it like it is when people spout racist nonsenses disguised as social theory.

[bluewave]

163. What if one of your kids said something you believed was

"racist nonsenses disguised as social theory." Would you rant at them, using invectives and obscenities, the same way you ranted at me?

[alcibiades_mystery]

169. If you don't know the difference between a classroom and a message board

I can't help you.

[bluewave]

172. So you're saying people on a MB don't deserve the same respect

you give to others in real life.

[alcibiades_mystery]

174. I say language use differs by situation

And in that situation, you got the respect you deserved.

[bluewave]

179. You're terribly clever. That response is snippy, but covers for the fact

that you do not respect people with whom you disagree.

[alcibiades_mystery]

180. I respect plenty of people with whom I disagree

But not all.

[bluewave]

183. Lack of respect for others is the root of many problems, including racism.

I'm sorry you don't feel you need to respect others.

[alcibiades_mystery]

189. Universal respect for all others

Is mealy-mouthed and silly. And you know it.

That's all beside the point. This whole subthread is just your sad attempt to cover the fact that you don't teach anyone anything, that you have a bunch of opinions that have no grounding in practice. That's the fact of the matter. I'll leave you to your disembodied theories.

[bluewave]

192. I'm not the one who admitted to having no respect for some people.

You did. "Mealy-mouthed" it is not. It is good manners.

[alcibiades_mystery]

195. Hell, I'll admit it again

I have no respect for some people. At least I'm honest. You call me a liar below. That means you have no respect for some people either. You just won't say it.

[bluewave]

199. No, I still have respect for you. But I don't know what else to

term "deliberate misrepresentation."

[alcibiades_mystery]

207. I never misrepresented your position

You have a problem with comprehension. In fact, I accurately described your position, as your own words about allowances and full immersion demonstrate.

[alcibiades_mystery]

123. You never did the Kenosha Kid

Is it a "mere" semantic difference whether we call people "savages" or "indigenous people"? Is that just semantic as well? The term "proper English," like the term "savages," contains a whole history of repression: it's meaning is very clear - one English is proper and correct, while the other is improper and incorrect. This is a faulty and - yes, I'll say it - RACIST assumption about language, and 30 years of linguistic and pedagogical research has shown it to be not only incorrect linguistically, but also destructive to learning in pedagogical practice. When a semantic distinction HURTS PEOPLE in practice, when it directs thought in a particular way and therefore directs actions that HURT people, it is not a "mere" semantic distinction: it is a real distinction that shapes the way we approach the world. You approach a "savage" one way; you approach an "indigenous person" another. You approach an "incorrect" or "improper" utterance one way; you approach a "nonstandard" utterance another. Language matters. Immensely. As I would expect any fan of Pynchon to understand.

Pynchon, of course, has a much more savvy and interesting take on race relations than the one you demonstrate here. You are, of course, free to escape down a toilet to evade the terrifying potential of black masculinity in the white male imaginary (as Tyrone Slothrop imagines in his encounter with Malcolm X in a Boston dance hall), but as Pynchon suggests, it's nasty down there, and unfulfilling.

You never did.
- The Kenosha Kid

[Tyrone Slothrop]

131. Per the first online thesaurus I found:

(I'm at work, btw, so my usual isn't at hand)

antonyms for "standard" are:

Deficient
Inferior
Substandard
Nonnormative
Uncommon
Bad
Unacceptable
Unaccepted
Irregular

So, now why don't you explain how the use of the term "standard" is so much better and less "racist" than "proper"?

Also, since we're speaking of educating students who don't speak standard English, how many of them are going to recognize whatever subtle connotations it is that some PC panel has decided apply to the term "standard" but do not apply to the term "proper"?

(Nice try with the "savage" vs. "indigenous" explication, btw, but neither "standard" nor "proper" have anything even approaching the sort of ameliorative or perjorative connotation typically associated with either "indigenous" or "savage" -- except perhaps to a group of isolated, overeducated linguists who rarely, if ever, converse or socialize outside of their academic circles.)

[bluewave]

138. I don't believe I ever used anything close to "savage"

He's spent all his considerable effort to portray me as a racist. He has spent zero effort discrediting my main point: that learning English (the "language of power" or whatever you desire to call it) gives you a better shot at financial success in life. If financial success is not something one desires, it does not hurt one to know this form of widely spoken English along with other languages.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

149. Ah, but it was close to "savage."

You said they're undisciplined. They're improper. They're exposing their rear ends. They're anti-intellectual. They speak a different language. And so on.

[bluewave]

154. And I also said that by using "their" it meant a large number of whites

also. In fact I would say more whites for some of those traits. But it bothers me more for blacks because while some whites attain financial comfort, it seems that almost no blacks do. And the more that we lie to ourselves that some day these traits will be acceptable to employers, the more damage we do to blacks through inaction. They deserve a chance and we won't give it to them for fear of being labeled racists, elitists, etc.

And to say I meant, or was close to saying "savage" is simply a racism, knee-jerk reaction. I'm almost at the point of admitting to being a racist simply so you'll drop it and be forced to evaluate my arguments on their merit. If you believe my use of the term "proper" is x, y, or z, fine.

[alcibiades_mystery]

157. I've evaluated your arguments on the merits throughout

:shrug:

[bluewave]

161. Then look at this quote of mine and agree or disagree.

"He has spent zero effort discrediting my main point: that learning English (the "language of power" or whatever you desire to call it) gives you a better shot at financial success in life. It also gives you a better chance of landing a wider range of jobs. If financial success is not something one desires, it does not hurt one to know this form of widely spoken English along with other languages."

Please be specific as to why I am wrong if you disagree.

[alcibiades_mystery]

168. I do not disagree with that point

And I have advocated teaching standard English throughout this thread. Our difference is simple: you say it's better to teach standard English by telling black kids that their primary language (AAVE) is wrong, incorrect, improper. I say it is better to teach standard English by accepting the legitimacy of their primary language and adding standard English to their linguistic repertoires.

Your method is subtractive: Teach standard English by correcting and eliminating the "error" of AAVE.
My method is additive: Add standard English to their already existing language capacities (mostly characterized by AAVE).

Our main dispute, thus, revolved around the term "proper" v. the term "standard," not because we want to make students "feel" a certain way, but because those terms reflect the difference in practical method.

[bluewave]

171. Blatantly false

considering above I said there was nothing wrong with teaching/knowing other languages along with proper English, and I indicated this could include AAVE. You are disingenuous.


Goodbye. What a waste.

[alcibiades_mystery]

175. Backpedaling

Laughable.

[bluewave]

177. Show me where I said what you claim.

You're lying and you know it. People have pointed it out to you, and you deny. Go up a few pages where I said it can be known/taught alongside English. Despite your best efforts, you can't change the text of my posts above. Now when you state anything or make any assertion, people can observe that you are a known liar. You have severely damaged any credibility you possessed.

[alcibiades_mystery]

185. Alrighty

"We've given up on them by allowing Ebonics, etc. in the schools" That's you, right?

What do you mean by "allowing" here? Hpw are we to remedy such allowances but by "disallowing"? Now, you've already said that you don't think Ebonics (AAVE) is actually taught in schools, so what is this "not allowing" but the very subtractive pedagogy I ascribe to you? Do you mean disallow it in the hallways? On the playground? Correct students who don't follow standard English inflection in the lunchroom? Or do you mean that we teach standard English by correcting it in classrooms? If you mean correcting it in classrooms, and I think you do, then my description of your position is exactly right. You seek to teach standard English (well, not you, since you don't teach anything) by disallowing or correcting AAVE usage. If that's your position, then own it.

[bluewave]

191. Yes, allowing Ebonics in schools.

Meaning allowed to be used during public speaking assignments, on writing assignments, in ENGLISH class, and while interacting with people in social situations that are inappropriate (like addressing teachers that are obviously not the least bit fluent in it). Did you think I meant sending the police to the schools to enforce a "no Ebonics policy," or suspending them for using it? Sorry, but taking one quote out of context is not proof.

The above paragraph seemed unnecessary and impossible to include in the tagline. Especially since I followed it with "not teaching" English.

[alcibiades_mystery]

194. Now you're getting to the nub of practice...finally

ALLOWING AAVE speakers to start with AAVE based assignments is a perfectly good way to TEACH standard English. I think so. You do not. So my post above, for which you called me a liar, is entirely accurate in its portrayal of your position. Your pedagogical stance is subtractive, just as I said it was.

[bluewave]

197. It is not accurate.

Considering the large number (8+?) of statements I have given that contradict your assertion of what I meant, it is not believable that you accidentally misinterpreted what I meant and wrote.

Unfortunately, they are not using AAVE to teach SE. Through carelessness and indifference they allow it and fail at their responsibility to help them succeed by teaching blacks SE. My Spanish language teacher would allow no English in her class after the 3rd week. She won numerous teaching awards, taught effectively (other Spanish teachers openly admitted her students were ahead of their class), and most of her students (including myself) loved her.

I'm not saying using AAVE to teach is necessarily wrong, that should be a question for educators and experts. But we both know SE isn't being taught, or at the very least it isn't being learned. I know at my high school it was not taught, and it was the best HS in the city. The few black students were mostly ignored and (especially the males) fell through the cracks.

[alcibiades_mystery]

205. Standard English is being taught

It is often not being learned because of approaches like yours. Full immersion works in some cases, and not in others. I suppose your Spanish teacher never told you that English was incorrect because it is not Spanish, yes?

And, once again, you are demonstrating that I am correct in my assessment of your position. Saying that you don't mind AAVE's existence is irrelevant. You specifically want to teach SE (well, not you, since you don't teach) by correecting or ignoring it. That's the subtractive position, just as I said. It's the dominant position today, and it is an utter failure.

By the way, is your experience in the "best HS in the city" your complete encounter with African American culture? Is this the experience you were talking about before?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

178. AAVE is not a seperate language, Bluewave.

[bluewave]

181. Then a dialect that many people find so different

that they can't understand it. I simply use "other language" because many understand the NYC dialect, the NE dialect, but have a hard time understanding AAVE. Sometimes the Southern dialect is foreign to me. Sometimes I have a hard time understanding the really severe British English.

Again, I see it as semantics.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

182. It's not that different.

And people only pretend they can't understand it. Because it's "beneath them."

[bluewave]

184. That's a subjective assessment. I commend you on being able

to understand it. I can understand some of it, but it changes quickly and the stuff I knew from the mid/early 90's (Tupac's) seems different than today's. I don't consider it "beneath me," since at one point I enjoyed listening to music spoken in that dialect.

[alcibiades_mystery]

155. LOL

Yes, the damnable overeducated. This is a thread about education, I suppose, but we don't want too much.

While I admire your detailed study of the first online thesaurus you found - an intellectual tour de force, to be sure - I think you need to understand the context of these terms in educational settings. That is, you need to understand the history of the use of "proper English" and the arguments that went into the term "standard," not in a decontextualized, thesaurus kinda way, but in the concrete developments of those terms in educational and linguistic practice. There, standard just means the prevailing norm, as I've been discussing a "language of power" throughout this thread. The only antonym that matters is "non-normative," in other words. It has none of the connotations of propriety or correctness and even rejects such connotations explicitly, because those connotations are, as I've said 1) incorrect, and 2) damaging to learners and learning. The non-standard is not bad, or wrong; it just isn't the prevailing norm. It's strange, because my interlocutor even seems to agree with me: AAVE is a perfectly functional language, and is a fine language to know (those who speak it as their primary language would no doubt be thrilled at such beneficence). The problem is not with the structure of AAVE itself, but with the way power operates through language in our society. That's fine. We all agree on that point.

In any case, one CAN find a neutral antonym for standard; one cannot, however, find a neutral antonym for proper (perhaps "unconventional," or something like that, but that's not how proper was used in CONTEXT, in the history of language arts instruction). That would be the point.

As for whether students understand these supposedly nuanced distinctions, that's neither here nor there. The problem is not that students hear the term "proper" and feel bad about themselves. The problem is that teachers hear it and construct pedagogies that position students' primary languages as incorrect, and they do so as if language is wholly separate from power relations in a society. These pedagogies do not work. They are broken. They are failed. This is one of the reasons the term "standard" - as opposed to proper - emerged in the first place. The other reason is that there is - from whatever view you might take - nothing "improper" or "incorrect" about many socially embedded forms of non-standard English usage. AAVE has rules and a well-formed grammar. To call AAVE usages improper is, strictly speaking, false. They are perfectly correct within AAVE. I think that's a crucial point: it is false. Maybe it's my over-education, but I like it when language reflects, to the extent it can, what we know about something like reality.

By the way, I speak with and work with non-academics all the time, from various community initiatives to, well, my students. Real ones, not imaginary ones constructed to score ideological points.

[bluewave]

158. Wow, Sophistry at its finest, psuedo-intellectualism at its worst

That was the most veiled, roundabout way of saying "you make people feel bad and mislead teachers, therefore racist" I've ever seen. I could have conjured that argument from my bowels with no knowledge of teaching. Your point is still the same: don't teach the kids standard English, change society to accept AAVE. Good luck with that delusion. And you did nothing to oppose his point. Your verbosity is astounding for a teacher.

[alcibiades_mystery]

167. Now you're just being dishonest

I have advocated teaching standard English throughout this thread. I defy you to point out one place where I say otherwise.

We have a difference on method, not goal. Since you cannot argue with any consistency, you've now taken to just making stuff up. It's indicative of your complete ignorance on this subject, which you seem to proclaim as a badge of honor, like all anti-intellectuals.

[bluewave]

170. So you typed all these words to protest my use of the word "proper"

when you use a word like "standard." As the guy above pointed out, they mean essentially the same thing, and the antonyms indicate you might be racist by your own standards.

[alcibiades_mystery]

176. And as i explained to him

The distinction has everything to do with the context - history of usage. That you can't read very well is not my problem.

[bluewave]

188. You can derive racism from every word, nook, and cranny

If you see racism everywhere then you will find it. Standard English can be misinterpreted to imply that people not speaking using that standard are abnormal. By your PC standards there is almost no way to express this dialect of English without using negative historical contexts, racial implications, societal divisions, etc. The black lady above me referred to it as "Queen's English." Can I use that?

Again, your arguments are on the semantics. You are overly sensitive. The implications are in your head.

[alcibiades_mystery]

190. They are about method

You can pretend all you want, but I've stated my point on this throughout. The term "proper" entails a set of pedagogical practices and misrecognizes actual language practices. That's why it's a stupid term. "Standard" is not a term I made up, but the term that emerged oiut of a consensus of linguistic professionals to forestall the negative connotations of proper. Does it have it's own problems? Ogf course it does. But they are nowhere as severe as the problems that attend the use of proper.

[bluewave]

193. Now you're making subjective value judgements comparing

both words, saying one has less problems than another. I find this absurd. I don't obsess over these sorts of things, I just use a term everyone can understand. Your semantical inquisition is tiresome.

[alcibiades_mystery]

196. Your lack of understanding of the stakes of the differences

is just as tiresome, believe me.

Since you seem to hate "subjective assessments," you should check the subjective nature of the term "proper," by the way. It is certainly not OB-jective, that's for sure.

[bluewave]

202. My god man, the word "standard" is also subjective.

It took me too long to realize I'm being trolled.

[alcibiades_mystery]

206. Perhaps

But standard at least makes a gesture towards the objective social existence of prevailing usage, while proper is a value judgment, period. That's the point that you pretend not to understand.

[seabeyond]

12. a perspective i have not looked at. interesting

there are a lot of factors in this and yes, racism is certainly a factor. a lot fo other things too. but this is an angle that does make sense and i had not thought of this. i want to know as much about this situation as we can, to see it at all angles. i believe there is a crisis with our male black youth and i am game in finding some answers.

[pretzel4gore]

21. can't get it right? or won't get it right....

jesse helms is still alive. so is rush limbah-humbug. millionaires both. beloved and respected by US society....

[alcibiades_mystery]

45. Perhaps instead of bemoaning the cool pose

The talented teachers among us could actually...err, I dunno...draw on it to facilitate learning? Ya know...do what teachers...err...are...err...SUPPOSED TO FUCKING DO? Which is to say, study the literacies of those communities (hint: they have extremely complex literacies and social rules), and leverage those literacies to teach broader social literacies?

No. None of that. Much easier to be a bunch of moralistic pricks. Cool pose. Haarrrumph.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

64. Oh, we can't do that!

That would be teaching ebonics!

:P

[bluewave]

82. The magnitude of your success has dwarfed my small brain

lol

[alcibiades_mystery]

86. I think that's probably true

:shrug:

Of course, people who really work at this, rather than babbling nonsense on the internet, know that success has to be counted in concrete terms, with real students. Have fun dreaming of your "proper" English utopia while the rest of us actually work with real people in the world.

[smalll]

77. This problem is the best argument for DRUG LEGALIZATION -

Take the money off the streets, the street lifestyle will quickly lose its glamor to kids in inner city schools. At about the same fast pace, gangsta rap as a phenomenon will also shrivel up and fade away.

Nothing done in schools one way or the other would have anywhere near the ameliorative effect that legalization would. And as a NYC (Bronx) public high school teacher myself, let me say this: the issue isn't teaching ebonics or teaching standard English. What can be done in the schools? That's a tough question. But one thing that DOESN'T help: the fact that in NYC, the official party line from on high is that teachers must STOP teaching the students (except for maybe 7 minutes at most out of a 45 minute period.) We're supposed to put them all in groups, and they will learn it all themselves, don't you know? :banghead:

[sandnsea]

83. White boys are EXACTLY the same

School is hard work and academics are not respected by too many men so that value isn't passed on to young boys. So what else is new. This isn't an inner city problem, or even a US problem. Young men with too much time and not enough opportunity are the same all over the world. It's exactly what they say makes it so easy to recruit terrorists. Men won't have their labor exploited, women will and corporations have happily stepped up to do just that.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

89. Yes, it's not entirely a black problem

It's the influence of the popular culture on boys of all races.

Years ago, I read an article on the effect of Latino immigration on a small town in Washington. The police chief was interviewed, and he said that the actual immigrants, legal or illegal, were fine, hard-working people who rarely caused trouble. However, their children were often influenced by the worst of pop culture, so in that town, at least, it was the second-generation kids who joined gangs and otherwise got into trouble.

I also saw the poisonous effects of the pop culture when I tutored street kids, or rather, tried to tutor them, for their GEDs. The boys were especially resistant to remedying their educational deficiencies, even though they read at about a sixth grade level and did math at a fourth grade level. As far as they were concerned, they were making money selling drugs or prostituting themselves or petty crime, and besides, they could always get someone to read for them, and if they had a calculator, they didn't need to know how to do math. Some of those kids (and the ones I tutored, like the majority of the street kids in Portland, were white) were so infuriatingly resistant to anything that would get them off the streets that it was sometimes all I could do to keep from yelling at them.

The girls usually had a better attitude, especially if they had babies. Having a baby usually concentrated their minds on the future.

I blame the commercial pop culture. Black culture is varied, and even within hip-hop, there are positive and negative strains, but the music producers CHOSE to promote the gangsta types above all. The TV producers CHOSE to make youth-oriented programming mean and dumb. The movie producers CHOSE to promote movies that consist mostly of special effects held together with lame jokes or over-the-top violence. The producers of entertainment could have chosen to emphasize the positive elements in black culture, to create youth-oriented programming and movies that were both intelligent and entertaining.

You almost have to wonder if there's been a deliberate attempt to dumb down the American public or if the producers of entertainment are so fixated on the bottom line that they turn out a constant stream of garbage in the belief that the lowest common denominator always sells.

[Ron Green]

92. This post makes more sense than most in this thread.

As some have pointed out, ALL children rebel, and resist the trappings of success: Standard English, well-fitting clothes, delayed gratification. However, although the hip-hop attitude and gangsta culture is promoted by the corporate media to ALL kids, white and Asian kids tend to have better support systems when they need to bring it back on track for success in education or work. The reason for the promotion of the most crippling aspects of youth culture, in my opinion, is simple economic slavery. Uneducated people can't really be citizens, but they can be consumers.

I've taught for years in many settings and many grade levels, and I've seen attempt after attempt to reach the kids "where they're at" (as some in this thread have advocated) by honoring their native language or pandering to a music-video reality. I've never seen it work very well.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

95. I agree with your last sentence

I recall when I was a teenager and teachers tried to be "cool" with us. It only made them appear ridiculous, because not being teenagers themselves, they could never get it exactly right.

Besides, if a teacher starts speaking ghetto English or Hawaiian pidgin to the students or decides that they can see the music video-ish film version of Romeo and Juliet instead of (not in addition to) reading the play, that's like saying, "I don't respect what I have to offer. Why should you?"

School should be for what students don't get from home or the pop culture.

[sandnsea]

93. Substitute country shitkicker

And it is exactly the same. The wealthiest family in my town let their 17 year old quit high school and start driving a logging truck. Stunning. The problem of disrespecting education is not just inner city hip hop. Rural males are often exactly the same, even going so far as being proud of their disdain for education. We saw it in the 2004 election. There's no way this country could have voted for that bumbling idiot if we valued intelligence. I just think it's ingrained. I think there's a certain amount of sexism related to it too, boys may not like applying themselves if it's likely they're never going to do better than 'a girl'. Easier to put up a false front and pretend you don't care. Or blame minorities and women for 'taking white men's place'.

[seabeyond]

100. when the kids were youngest i banned all tv that was about honoring dumb and angry

that included the sponge bobs, ed ed and eddy, power girls (even though heros always had angry faces) and taught kids society does to dumb down and was unacceptable in our house. my boys are finding much of what you speak in the schools. it was a challenge finding a school my intellectual oldest could be smart and not attacked or looked at with disdain. i found one and i am thrilled. smart is rewarded adn valued at this school. last night my youngest in 3rd grade was asking why the kids purposely spoke improper english. we went thru the reason, the main reason being the parents lack of concern with education and teaching children in home.

yup, i agree with you

[AbbyR]

107. Bingo!

It is American culture, and we have all seen it and talked about it on DU as we watched in wonder as people voted against their own interests and talked endlessly of the greatness of GWB. Where are their brains, we thought - and said. Well, their brains are lost in a culture that is scared to death of intelligence and thinks that anyone who speaks in words of more than one syllable is a elitist snob. I don't call it black culture. I call it the Bubba culture, and you don't have to be a white redneck to be a Bubba.

[KittyWampus]

133. Agree, one could apply this to fudie youth etc.

[cap]

101. how can we talk about kids staying in school when

there's nothing to stay in school for. The kids can see the results of a lack of opportunity first hand -- they see the college grad or the community college grad flipping burgers back in the hood.

The post about the schools sucking big time is on target. Who would want to learn in a school that looks like a jail?

We have not enforced EEOC for the past 6 years... not one civil rights case. We need an EEOC targeted at ensuring local services are provided to each community at a certain basic level. I mean everything from potholes being fixed to school funding to arts centers. It is unconscionable that there are no affordable grocery stores in the inner cities. Where is the SBA funding for the bright neighborhood entrepreneur to start one? If security is a problem, go to the churches and ask the pastors to identify honest young people to patrol the store. Get community buy-in and the store will left alone. The community will see to that.

The only folks the kids can see that look like them that are making are celebrities -- hip hop and sports. The black professional folks dont look like them. Unlike white kids. Celebrities dont look like them but white professional folks do. White kids know they have a place in corporate America where practically all of them will end up. Black kids are banking on the one shot for glory in fields where the innate failure rate is very high. The doors of corporate America are effectively closed to them anyhow. We just arent there when it comes to fulfilling Martin Luther King's dream.

The kids dont understand that they can move between two cultures and dialects by speaking one way in the corporate world and another way at home. I have seen senior black managers do this... buttoned up and uptight like the white folks at the office. Loose as a goose on the phone with the family. Black folks at the office seem to know that they have to be very uptight in order to make it. Look at the images of the black manager on TV...more uptight, rigid and controlled than their white counterpart.

However, the kids have a point, albeit self-destructive, about non wanting to fit into white corporate America. You take people who are by nature diametrically the opposite of the uptight, corporate bullsh-ters that inhabit corporate America and tell them to deny the strength, emotional resonance and power of their very being in order to fit in a sick society. Well, they can do cocaine in a corner office and heroin is sold to brokers right on Wall Street. The kids know the hypocrisy when they see it.

Sometimes I wonder if the answer for these kids is a complete reformation of corporate America. Well, if the revolution isnt around the corner... maybe a small, but important reform is -- developing small community based business. There are billions of dollars of purchasing power in the inner city. The kids could learn what it takes to make a decent living and still remain in the community where they were born without the pressure to conform.

[BluePatriot]

112. "Nothing to stay in school for"

Precisely. I see this among my white male peers. My BA cum laude got me a job as a receptionist and now "account assistant," a job begged off connections my family had. Hubby's associate's degree got him retail work, and then a courier job, a job...begged off connections my family had. He does not want to pursue his BA but is grudgingly going back with my nagging. And sometimes, I really wonder if there's any point in either of us continuing our education if the jobs we "could" be getting are just beyond a glass ceiling of "networking and connections." If you are educated but unconnected (which would likely be the case of someone trying to rise up out of their environment, like in the article) you can find nothing. Nothing! And then, passing time on the street corner seems like a more interesting alternative. Might as well have fun...

[cap]

119. but those "future oriented" minorities have something to strive for

many of them are children of professionals who were middle class in their own country before they immigrated. A lot of immigrants are working professionals in this country and a lot of those who arent were educated middle class. Ever notice that there are a lot of school teachers from the third world who are baby sitters?

Also, many communities stick together better than American ones. Koreans pool money and that gives them the capital to start a business. Indians network like mad. Family businesses hire their own.

[frustrated_lefty]

103. This is a real problem which has to be addressed.

Young black men don't seem to see purpose or direction in their lives. It isn't a minority thing, I've taught children of many origins and most of them are more driven than your average caucasian. I walked down the street a few weeks ago to the pharmacy. One young black man made sure I could hear as he said "damn, there are too many white people here now."

Maybe I am falling into the trap of condemning the culture. My apologies, I have to condemn a culture which furthers the destruction of its very adherents.

[Jcrowley]

105. That's painful

School is compulsory, and racist society wouldn’t waste such an opportunity for a captive audience in order to teach myths about history and culture that reinforce racism. Students are not taught about the importance of class struggle in US history (Zinn), or about the racism of leaders like Woodrow Wilson, or the socialism of heroes like Hellen Keller (Loewen). They learn about Martin Luther King but aren’t given access to his most radical words, nor to the words of Malcolm X or the Black Panthers, nor to the truth about the dispossession and genocide against Native people (Churchill, Zinn). They are taught that slavery was ended by a white president’s heroic action and not the long struggles of abolitionists. They aren’t taught how much of the country’s wealth was built by immigrants. Students of colour see nothing that speaks to them, and learn that they are extras in the drama of history. Even white students have trouble believing the hype. Rather than consume the junk that passes for history, students prefer to not bother. They end up doing far worse in history than in any other subject. (Loewen)

Taken together, these mechanisms ensure that people of colour don't have the resources either to educate themselves on their own terms or to get equality in the mainstream. Instead, they are forcibly included as inferiors in the dominant culture, and reminded of it every day in school.

http://www.zmag.org/racewatch/znet_race_instructional5.htm

That article in the OP is really awful. Perpetuates so many myths where does one begin?

People with power do not give it away out of morality or a sense of justice. Instead they use the means at their disposal to maintain and extend their power. They hand out jobs and positions in society, and so have the power to discriminate based on race (and sex) and create the kind of pyramid they want. The consequences for the economy are these: not only does racism cause the economy to be stratified as it is, and place people of colour at the bottom of the economic pyramid in terms of occupation, empowerment, income, and wealth. Racism also splits the 'everyone else' into racial groups with different interests, and helps elites maintain their economic power against a divided opposition.

We have a society divided by class: what I would call two classes of winners (owners and managers) and one class of losers (workers, including the unemployed)-- others might cut this finer, others rougher. Most of the winners are white, but most white people aren't winners, at least in the economy. But what we also have is a society divided by race-- where the upper caste is white, and all whites are racial winners-- even those who are economic losers. This scheme of things suits white economic elites-- who create and maintain the scheme by discrimination-- just fine. Racial privilege, in terms of status, prestige, and separation, is much cheaper for them to give out than economic justice, full employment at empowering work, and equality.

http://www.zmag.org/racewatch/znet_race_instructional3.htm

It's obvious the author has internalized the colonial mindset and sees assimilation as a desirable behavioral pursuit. It matters not that the author is Black. Where he gets the notion that most Blacks have escaped the legacy of the past must be from the depths of his own denial and refusal to examine how profound that legacy has been for us all. And no surprise this is being taught at Harvard as dangerous a University as you'll find.

[KittyWampus]

135. OMFG, so for you the only way to change is through changing 'white imperialist culture'

and since that is a monumental task that can take hundreds of years more, black youth can do nothing by and for themselves now.

Or at least they'll just have to depend on "us" to do all the heavy lifting for them.

Frankly your view is paternalistic and goes out if its way to excuse individuals of any sense of personal accountablilty.

It's one of victimhood and does NOTHING to engender empowerment among black youths and all disadvantaged youth.

[Jcrowley]

209. Maybe we should change the system

instead of blaming the victims.

Sorry I can't get with the Tavis Smiley Show.

Who's "us" in your calculus. Please count me out of that.

Frankly your view ignores all f history and pretty much all of today's reality and the underlying reasons things are the way they are. It's the same old crap of saying folks should "act responsibly" and "pull themselves up by their bootstraps' while igonring the fact someone else has the straps, and stole them in the first place.

It's pretty funny and sad to hear, nearly verbatim, the words parroted from neo-liberal think tanks and of course tremble at the fact of how manipulated people have become and how out of touch they are with the day to day realities of poor folks.



Interesting to note that while Blacks were gaining their greatest advances in "Civil Rights" they were losing their lands at record rates. Please read Wendell Berry's, "The Hidden Wound" and Eric Williams, "Capitalism and Slavery" as well as read a bit of Tim Wise to get beyong liberal elite talking points.

[CitizenLeft]

216. profound post, as usual, JCrowley

"It's obvious the author has internalized the colonial mindset and sees assimilation as a desirable behavioral pursuit. It matters not that the author is Black. Where he gets the notion that most Blacks have escaped the legacy of the past must be from the depths of his own denial and refusal to examine how profound that legacy has been for us all. And no surprise this is being taught at Harvard as dangerous a University as you'll find."

While what I said in my post below may seem to argue against this, it does not. I agree wholeheartedly. To assimilate or not has always been the debate that divides us. Unfortunately, we did not make the rules, but in order to thrive economically, we must follow them, until the world changes. It won't happen in our lifetime.

[mzmolly]

117. There is a similar culture among many poor whites.

It's not "cool" to get good grades, pursue higher education, etc.

Interesting read. In order to fully confront issues, we have to see them.

Thanks for the thought provoking read.

Of course, such attitudes explain only a part of the problem. In academia, we need a new, multidisciplinary approach toward understanding what makes young black men behave so self-destructively.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist does it? I would say that the consequences of generations without hope, is merely finding a way to survive. This articles explains how some people have done that. "I can't succeed in this culture, so I'll create one in which I can."

[cap]

120. you are correct about that...

look at white rural whites... especially in Appalachia, there is a culture of fatalism.

[mzmolly]

122. Many urban whites have a bit of this mentality as well.

"Why bother trying" is an apparent mindset. I think an element of "fate" is the underlying rationale?

[KittyWampus]

136. Small point, they aren't creating an alternate sub-culture. Isn't a great deal of what they idealize

spoon fed to them by corporations?

My point here, if you're going to be counterculture or subculture, then please try and be authentic and unique. :)

[mzmolly]

148. That's a good point. But, the sub-culture began before corporate

America seized upon it.

I also like to see authenticity tossed in with a bit "positivity" in our subcultures. ;)

[Jcrowley]

126. A Word From Tim Wise

Breaking the Cycle of White Dependence: A Call for Majority Self-Sufficiency

By Tim Wise

I think it’s called ‘projection.’ When someone subconsciously realizes that a particular trait applies to them, and then attempts to locate that trait in others, so as to alleviate the stigma or self-doubt engendered by the trait in question.

It’s a well-understood concept of modern psychology, and explains much: like why men who are struggling with their own sexuality are often the most outwardly homophobic. Or the way whites during slavery typified black men as rapists, even though the primary rapists were the white slaveowners themselves, taking liberties with their female property, or white men generally, raping their wives with impunity.

I got to thinking about projection recently, after receiving many an angry e-mail from folks who had read one or another of my previous commentaries, and felt the need to inform me that people of color are "looking for a handout," and are "dependent" on government, and of course, whites.

Such claims are making the rounds these days, especially as debate heats up about such issues as reparations for enslavement, or affirmative action. And this critique is a prime example of projection, for in truth, no people have been as dependent on others throughout history as white folks.

http://www.zmag.org/sustainers/content/2001-05/19wise.htm

[crispini]

134. Could we have a link to the original article?

I'd like to have a look at the whole thing. Very interesting.

[NorthernSpy]

150. I dare you to post an equivalent analysis of Jews and Jewish culture...

If you did that, just the antagonistic hyperfocus alone -- apart from anything else -- would count as real, honest-to-badness anti-Semitism.

So what I really want to know is why the Black Question ('what's the matter with those people?') is really any more legitimate than the old "Jewish Question" ('what's the matter with those people?') ever was.


This is my modest proposal: if blacks are to be fair game for hostile cultural criticism, them EVERYONE should be fair game for hostile cultural criticism. No double standards.

[bluewave]

166. Blacks should not be the punching bags, our education system should.

Kids, I believe, can't fail themselves. Most are too young at 13 to have the foresight to see consequences of their poor education. But we as a society should know better. We should be able to see we are not getting results. I'm 24, six years out of the public education system, and I saw some abysmal failures. Tell the teacher that forcing kids to write memos all day at high school is a waste of their time, and you get a blank look like "WTF, who are you kid?"

[NorthernSpy]

201. my, how generous of you...

Blacks should not be the punching bags, you generously aver?


Wow, a belated shred of benevolence. That's way better than a straight answer to my question about why we tolerate a double standard that permits hostile cultural criticism of blacks, but not of other groups such as Jews.


:eyes:

[Nikki Stone1]

153. Interesting that black females, who actually graduate high school are being ignored AGAIN!

The good news in that article is that African American females, even in poverty stricken areas, ARE graduating high school. But as usual, we ignore their success and lament all about the males. I guess the squeaky wheel and all that...

[NorthernSpy]

165. it's about seizing every opportunity to promote the Black Question:

It appears in different guises, but it always boils down to "what's the matter with Those People"?

:eyes:

So yeah, the fact that black women have actually managed to do pretty well for themselves despite difficult circumstances is not something that promoters of the Black Question like to dwell on. Especially not when you consider that white working class men increasingly exhibit many of the same social behavior patterns and pathologies that racists like to pin on blacks exclusively.

[cap]

meth is the curse of the rural white

who suffers from many of the same things I pointed out about black youth. If you look at the rotting of our rural areas, you are ending up with the same conclusion: better to drop out and form your own culture. The dominant culture is not working for you.

[Nikki Stone1]

217. That's one way to spin it. The other way is to assume that black women are consistently underrated

Both could be true at the same time.

[Rosemary2205]

187. This is total BS

I realize there are people on this planet who want to tell themselves this kind of silliness but we don't have to fling this poo all over the DU.

Just MHO.

[cigsandcoffee]

198. The man is a black professor at Harvard University.

IMO, that makes his assertions on racial sociology worthy of debate, at a minimum.

[Rosemary2205]

203. Condi's black and well educated too.

I am one black female who doesn't think Condi has anything important to say. Her being black and/or educated is meaningless to me. It doesn't take Harvard material to know what garbage smells like.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

213. That's one of those there...

arguments from authority.

[CitizenLeft]

215. some things I disagree with in the article...

To identify my perspective, I'm an African-American woman who grew up in the 60's, teen in the 70's. My earlier years were spent in the inner-city, moved to the suburbs in my mid-teens. Have always loved books and the written language, handed down by my family, who always stressed the importance of education. Have never had a problem getting a decent wage until recently, in this out-sourced job market - I'm hanging onto "middle class" with my fingernails for dear life, just like a huge segment of America. I have no children, and have minimal contact with black youths today (meaning, the kids in the neighborhood don't stop by my house for milk and cookies to tell me what they think). I'm just saying all that so that if anyone disagrees, they can analyze why I'm wrong. :P

"Not only was living this subculture immensely fulfilling, the boys said, it also brought them a great deal of respect from white youths. This also explains the otherwise puzzling finding by social psychologists that young black men and women tend to have the highest levels of self-esteem of all ethnic groups, and that their self-image is independent of how badly they were doing in school."

First, I have to wonder at how the young black men define "respect." Do they mean that white youths fear them? Or try to emulate them because they think they're cool? But the reality is, on the whole, young whites go on to college, or to blue collar jobs, and shed that "respect" when they find out that who they emulated got left behind. I have no evidence that this is what whites think when they move on into the workplace, but it's a logical progression, if they think about it at all (which they may not). Maybe someone here can shed some light on that idea. My point is, if I'm right, there's huge gap in reality with even that basic component of their thinking: that "respect" is illusory and transitory. At the risk of further alienating them from mainstream society - white society, specifically - I would think that breaking down that "respect" myth would be a good start towards connecting with reality. There is a difference between "respect" and thinking something is cool for awhile. And if this were to be done, it would need to be very carefully - because I wouldn't want to put too much importance on needing the respect of white youths. Which leads me to the next point.

Second, I disagree with the "high self-esteem" assessment. No psychologist here, but, I've always thought that self-esteem was related to individual independence of thought. Seems that their insistence on repeating behavior that is self-destructive is rather a system of deep LACK of self-esteem, not the opposite. To go your own way, to break away from destructive habits is the difinition of inner strength, isn't it? More likely, clinging to these "cultural" apron strings is similar to why gangs so easily recruit kids who are lost, struggling, confused: you stay with who wants you. To break out of the trap of thinking that "success" in America means giving up your identity takes courage and real self-esteem, as does believing that you can do both - you can learn what it takes to make it out of poverty, while still being loyal to your heritage. And the need to have respect from white youths - to even care at all what they think - is a red flag, to me, in the self-esteem department. It's allowing a whole other culture to define YOU, not the other way around.

Having said all that, I have never been crazy about labeling how young black people live as the only "culture" African-Americans have. In fact, I reject that. It implies that we can't grow, and include other cultural ideas and make it our own. It implies that we are stagnant. We are not. So when I say I can't stand Rap/Hip-Hop, please don't equate me with Alan Keyes *vomits* The music of black youth is only one small part of what makes "black culture" if it must be labeled at all. It's the loudest part, the element that gets the most attention, but it doesn't make you black, and if you don't like it, it doesn't make you a Tom. When I was growing up, I loved P-Funk - blasted it LOUD AND CLEAR for all the world to see as my jeans scraped the ground and got raggedy - the more raggedy, the cooler they were so they'd fall over my earth shoes juuuuust right. Well, P-Funk, in my opinion, is THE quintessential "cool," so there. But that's a generational thing with me, NOT cultural. It is just one small part of a huge conglomeration of how blacks in America live - urban culture does NOT define me, and I reject the idea that it should, WITHOUT rejecting it entirely, meaning, if the kids want to walk around with their asses on display, fine... but that's not "culture," it's a fashion phase, which I pray to God dies out soon.

Blah blah, just adding my three cents. :hi:

[joe_sixpack]

222. Just wanted to say

excellent and well written post. There is no one culture that defines any group. There are factions within all groups. Black youths might find more in common with white youths than they even do with their own parents. Different races of individuals share a culture in the military that many of the same races in the civilian world wouldn't understand. That's why I don't believe it's fair to call it racist if you are discussing sociological problems of sub cultures defined by certain parameters like race or age or economic class.

[distantearlywarning]

223. Just for the record...

At least in the psych world, self-esteem has nothing to do with non-conformity or "individual independence of thought". In fact, I know at least a few psychologists who would say exactly the opposite - that the easiest way to gain self-esteem, or a positive feeling about self identity, is to subscribe faithfully to some group's norms. And if you think about it, the people with the lowest self-esteem in this society (in general)are those who are stigmatized, or who are failing to live up to the image that their social group demands of them. You see it all the time. If that weren't true, we wouldn't have a multi-billion dollar diet industry easily preying on the poor self image of overweight people. Just for example...

This may not be your preferred definition of self-esteem, or even what you believe "real" self-esteem to be, but it is likely to be the definition that this person is using. And using that definition of self-esteem, gang members probably _do_ have higher self-esteem than kids who are stigmatized and outcast because they are trying to break away from a destructive lifestyle.

[ismnotwasm]

218. My whimsy

Makes me want to quote Alice Walker;
It is true
I've always loved
the daring
ones
Like the black young
man
Who tried
to crash
All barriers
at once
wanted to
swim
At a white
beach (in Alabama)
Nude.

"Of all the poems I wrote during the period of most intense struggle for Civil Rights (the early sixties), this one (from Once)remains my favorite. I like it because it reveals a moment in which I recognized something important about myself, and my own motivations for joining a historic, profoundly revolutionary movement for human change. It also reveals why the term "Civil Rights" could never adequately express black people's revolutionary goals, because it could never adequately describe our longings and our dreams, or those of the non-black people who stood among us. And because, as a term, it is totally lacking in color

In short, although I value the Civil rights Movement deeply, I have never liked the term itself. It has no music, it has no poetry. It makes one think of bureaucrats rather than of sweaty faces, eyes bright and big for Freedom!,marching feet. No; one thinks instead of metal filing cabinets and boring paperwork.

This is because "Civil Rights" is a term that did not evolve out of black culture, but, rather out of American law. As such, it is a term of limitation. It speaks only to physical possibilities--necessary and treasured, of course--but not of the spirit. Even as it promises assurance of greater freedoms it narrows the area in which people might expect ot find them. No wonder "Black Power," "Black Panther Party," even "Mississippi Freedom Power" and Umoja" always sounded so much better and si eneris, if in the end they accomplished (perhaps)less.

When one reads the poems, especially, of the period, this becomes very clear. The poems, like the songs of that time reveal an entirely different quality of imagination and spirit than the term "Civil Rights" describes. The poems are full of protest and "civil disobedience," yes, but they are also full of playfulness an whimsicality, an attraction to world families and the cosmic sea--full of a lot of naked people longing to swim free."

From "Silver Writes" In Search of our Mother's Garden, Alice Walker

To discover the "whys" of anything, I always go back to beginnings.

[Jcrowley]

221. That's great

During the time of "Civil Rights" when blacks were purportedly making strides in the social strata they were losing their land at record rates.

Great post

:hi:

[cap]

226. that's why I am thinking of local self-empowerment

with some seed capital from the federal government. People can define their own culture within their own neighborhood as one solutoin


Like the Orthodox Jews, they can live in their own neighborhoods, be with people who accept them, and have economic power.