When future Generations ask us : why did you not stop him, what will we say?

[AzDar]

[dogday]

1. It was taken off the table..........

Isn't that what we all voted for? Was to relieve this administration of it's power? We have had numerous investigations and we have a boat-load of information....

[jwirr]

32. There have been no Dem investigations that actually had the

power to subpoena records.

[dogday]

44. No, they have not had that power, but they

have had hearings, and have gathered information about certain things...

[peacebird]

2. I voted. I marched. I wrote LTTEs. I called my Reps in Congress. All of these I did many times.

I tried.


That's all I can say. I tried.

[Skidmore]

13. Many of us tried but not hard enough nor were we willing to die for truth.

Our leaders on both sides refused to listen to the truth and to take any action that did not serve them personally in their lust for power. Our media willingly became his voice and conduits for the Great Lie. Our educators capitulated to fear and quit teaching. Our religious leaders chose dogma and wealth over moral and principled reasoning. Our generals chose careers in politics, industry, and punditry over the good of the nation. And there are those among us who preferred to shop and navel gaze, and others still who think that war is a video game.

[Warren Stupidity]

15. The answer is right there: we did not try hard enough,

we did not have the courage to put our lives on the line to save those who would die. We failed. I failed. You failed. We have no excuse. Now what?

[Skidmore]

19. Now that the nation has been brought to its knees, the question

becomes how to salvage what we can. The choice is still the same--the neocon's agenda or what we should have done all along. Unless, this Democratic Congress is willing to make some tough legislative action, it may very well be that we must still fight in the streets to save the nation created in the Constitution.

[Rosemary2205]

39. We weren't willing to DIE for truth?

I have to say. That one shook me up. It just feels like I'm should have strapped on a bomb and infiltrated the townhall meetings, or the local CNN affiliate......or ........something.

I'm sorry but it just feels too al Quedaish for me.

[Warren Stupidity]

43. You are misreading that post.

We should have been willing to put our lives on the line, for example through acts of civil disobedience, in order to try to stop the war, and we should be willing to do this to end the war. The OP and I did not in any way mean that you or I should commit acts of violence.

We have a moral obligation to do this as our government is killing people in large numbers in our name right now. By our passivity to this crime we are committing the crime.

[Skidmore]

45. Thank you for clarifying my point. You have accurately

stated the intent of my post.

[Rosemary2205]

47. Well thank goodness.

I've been to quite a few protests in my day that earned me a busted skull or handcuff bruises but I think it's been awhile since the last time they actually opened fire (a la Kent state) on a non-violent protest.

I don't really think of "the cops might kill me" when it comes to acts of disobedience. But I do expect someone will get a taser in the back or a blinded by a rubber bullet. This is why I misunderstood.

Thanks for the explaination. Sorry about that.

[Skidmore]

49. Rosemary, with the mindset of this current administration, I wouldn't

put it past them to move beyond rubber bullets and tasers if they felt some act of disobedience was a threat to their agenda or political aspirations. I trust no one in the * administration, nor do I trust law enforcement now.

[Warren Stupidity]

50. If you've been to a recent protest

then you should understand that they will do whatever is neccesary to force us to submit to their authority, up to and including the use lethal force. Tasers and chemical agents are where they start the negotiations.

[Rosemary2205]

52. Unfortunately

I've been battling to come back from being paralyzed by a drunk driver the last 5 years and have not had the privilege of being able to personally partake of a good protest. The last I went to was yearly the school of the America's protest back in 2000 which I thought would be no big deal and managed to come home with handcuff bruises. Forgive me, it's just been a really long time since I even thought about them actually killing protestors in the US and to be honest, yes, it might could happen but I truly believe the snot would hit the fan if they did (well OK, if the media saw fit to even bother reporting the slaughter).

[Skidmore]

56. It may very well come to that.

Unfortunately, it took the incident at Kent State for proverbial snot hit the fan during the Viet Nam era. Sad that so much killing abroad isn't shocking enough for people to experience outrage.

[TahitiNut]

51. And there's one perennial truth: The price will only go up.

It will not get easier. There's no Lone Ranger. When we hear the cavalry coming, it won't be a rescue.

This is the lesson of history.

[tblue37]

70. I am an educator.

I did not quit teaching.

For example, for the final in my English 101 class, I have used the Stanford Prison Experiment and the Milgram obedience experiments as background. I have also compiled articles and videos about police brutality, misuse of Tasers, and police state tactics (at the G-8 Summit, at the RNC and DNC conventions, etc.), as well as articles and photos concerning Abu Ghraib and Gitmo.

Then I offer several different prompts for the students to choose from. Among them are prompts asking whether what they have learned about the Milgram and Stanford experiments helps to explain what they have read about the use of Tasers, the use of police state tactics, and police brutality and unaccountability generally.

All but a small handful of students have told me they have never heard of those experiments before, and most have also never heard about any of the police actions covered in the articles. Many also tell me that reading the background material has shaken them and made them think deeply about and question what they have always assumed to be true.

They are subjected to media nonsense and hagiographic history from their youngest age. They just don't even know about most of what we know about.

As a teacher, it is simply not my business to tell them what they should think. I have no right. But I can offer them access to information that they don't normally encounter in their regular lives. The outrages we know about actually are "covered" in the MSM, but only in a drive-by sort of way. They don't stay front and center long enough for anyone not paying close attention to be aware of them. I don't go to liberal sites to provide the info. I just provide copies from regular newspapers or videos from regular news broadcasts.

One little candle. That's all I can really do. I try to educate people one at a time, and I just hope for an ongoing ripple effect.

[Rabrrrrrr]

3. We will say that we failed to truly learn the lessons of the Hitlers, Pol Pots,

and other tyrants and dictators.

We will say that we stupidly and immorally let fear, not logic and compassion, dictate our actions.

We will say that we had not the courage to stand up for what is right, because we cared more about immediate safety for ourselves, which safety was never actually there to begin with.

We will say that we were wrong, and that they must act better than we did, and that they must train their following generations to act even better than them.

[jobycom]

4. We tried. They wouldn't let us.

One stolen election, one corrupt election, a Congress blocking all investigations of him, and a media covering for him and selling him outight... This administration has existed outside of our Democracy.

[baldguy]

9. The word is "coup"

From the French "coup d'Etat" meaning "a sudden blow to the State". As Edward Luttwak remarks in his Coup d'État: A Practical Handbook: "A coup consists of the infiltration of a small but critical segment of the state apparatus, which is then used to displace the government from its control of the remainder."

In 2000 & 2004, we didn't have elections. They were and are continuing to be a coup.

[Nite Owl]

5. I hope that they say she told us

what would happen if we voted for *, she screamed it to us in no uncertain terms. We saw her march, she begged us to make calls, write letters and get involved. She walked the walk. She tried.

[TahitiNut]

6. "We were too busy blaming 'them.'"

:shrug: It's hard to risk the comforts we have when we're thinking we deserve more.

[mdmc]

38. "them"

is us.
Peace to you TH. Peace and low stress to you in this New Year.

[Neshanic]

7. Our party leaders did not want to impeach. Icky messy thing.

The pResidents poll numbers are at historic lows.

The majority of the country does not support the war.

The majority of the county feels that it was mislead.

The nation sent a strong signal in the 2006 election.

Scandals of epic proportions that taint Reuplicans of war profiteering, sex scandals, God know what else.

No thank you, no impeachment for us please.

[CrispyQ]

8. Many of us tried.

But too many more didn't care because they were not asked to sacrifice anything.

[European Socialist]

10. I was keeping my powder dry or I didn't want Rush to say mean things about me.

[Toots]

11. We had our rooms sealed with duct tape and were hiding under our beds...

America the Brave was not.........

[k_jerome]

12. i'll tell them...

the same reason african americans still can't get an education and the same reason there is now a U.S. Constitutional Amendment banning gay marriage. i'll tell them its because kids like them still sit on their ass and old farts like me still don't give a shit.

any other hypotheticals?

[Zodiak]

17. for the record

there is no Constitutional Amendment banning gay marriage at the federal level

[k_jerome]

18. for the record...

read the op. it is the future hero.

[Zodiak]

54. ok...makes sense, my bad n/t

[k_jerome]

59. no prob. nt.

[lonestarnot]

23. No matter what I did, it was not enough!

[mdmc]

41. WOW

:yourock:

[mdmc]

55. youngsters didn't care, adults more interested in banning video games

:web:

[TomClash]

14. Maybe no one will ask nt

[Robbien]

16. We all thought civil disobedience was the way to stop this mess

However civil disobedience is too civil. Watching and learning from Mexico where the teachers are risking their lives for their country, it is surprising to find out that even their heroic efforts have gotten them nowhere.

[Warren Stupidity]

24. Where was the mass civil disobedience?

I guess I missed it. We never tried that, did we? Marching in a protest is not civil disobedience unless you walk outside the corral they have set up for you.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

20. "Was könnten wir tun?" Worked for the Germans.

Or, "Ich war gerade folgende Aufträge."

[novalib]

21. I MARCHED! I PROTESTED! I DID NOT SHUT UP!!!!

I will tell future generations that I WENT TO 1600 PENNSYLVANIA AVENUE!!

I MARCHED!! I PROTESTED!! I SHOUTED OUT TO POWER!!!

I REFUSED to shut up!!!

I was someone who SPOKE THE TRUTH TO POWER!!!

I did NOT let THEM silence ME!!!!!

[peace13]

22. I organize and march in peace rallies,

phone every senator on major votes, maintain a memorial to the soldiers in the front yard, poll worker for the elections, support candidates and organizations financially to encourage change, make sure the local newspaper covers the milestone counts on dead soldiers. All of this and we have sh*t for results. The problem is that we have good people working within the law to make change while our *resident and his cohorts in crime break the laws to kill and steal at their will. It is impossible for a law abiding citizen to have any impact. And yet.. we must never give up. Peace to you, Kim

[peacetalksforall]

25. Because people refused to see corporate power and manipulation.

People were trained to believe in corporations. Leaders morphed from being representatives of the people to being representatives of the corporations and people continued to trust both.

People didn't protest when corporations shipped their quarters, vaults, laws, and labor out of the U.S. reducing the power of the people. People believed the illusion that we were making progress maintaining ownership, constitutional rights.

People knew that our money was not being acquired fairly and spent equally.

Few people knew that we were being manipulated by those who fed us news and analysis.

People were trained to hate others in the rest of the world and to think they knew what was going on.

Too few people knew that they should be paying more attention and didn't speak out.

People didn't know and didn't mind being deluded.

There are many degrees of recognizing hypocrisies and forming a philosophy about them. Some see and don't vote. Some see and accept. Some see and act by trying to do something.

There are diverse individuals and groups in Israel- 'Palestine' of Jewish and Moslem faiths who are trying to meet and work together. Maybe it's time to try to work together with adversaries to help each other out of our delusions - if there's time.

[stillcool]

26. Look to the past...

to find your answer. Trace the fruit back to the trees roots, then step back and notice the orchard.

[MindPilot]

27. I used to ask my mom the same thing about the Nazi camps.

My mom lived on the south east coast of England during the war. She would tell me--I don't know if it's accurate or just her perception--that it was so horrific that no-one could believe it was actually happening.

I think for us, "we did out best, but it wasn't enough" is as good an answer as "I told you so."

A few weeks ago I got a face-to-face with my rep. She is one who didn't vote for IWR, tax cuts, the bankruptcy bill or any of the other pro-corporate/military-industrial-complex legislation that sailed through congress.

I told her I wanted to see investigation after investigation. Once the American people know exactly what it's government has been doing behind closed doors for the past six years, then we cans start impeaching and convicting those responsible. She agreed.

But another attendee who happens to be on of the most active of the activist Dems in my area started on about reconciliation, working together and putting all this behind us. Not being one to go off in public and being a bit of a local name myself, plus the fact it's probably not a good idea to get agitated when sitting three feet from a congresswoman, I bit my tongue. All could say was this playing nice crap is what got us here and it's going to keep us here.

So maybe--since I'm guilty myself--I will have to tell them we were too polite.

[peacetalksforall]

36. Perhaps, also, none of us know where the line is between

being a radical and a protestor.

We may not even know how to define a radical in our country's ideology and in with the ever revealing atrocities of arrogance enacted by our leaders. We think we don't want to be a radical, that we can protect oursevles and save our country by protest. It's complex.

[Ezlivin]

28. Future generations? As if there will be any future generations...

Didn't you get the memo? The future has been called off.

[EST]

29. It'll all be covered up in the noise.

There will be talk of the "good Germans" and whether the leader was an atheist or was a misled theocon.
People pride themselves on being intelligent and logical-in parlance, "figgerin' things out."
What we really are is rationalized pattern recognition machines who make decisions-especially the most important ones-based on emotional tics then justify the hell out that decision later.

Unless people will have changed drastically and the meek have, indeed, inherited the earth, people will still be making voting decisions based on feel good reactions instead of searching for the most intellectual, lucid, experienced person of appropriate temperament and possessed of a sophisticated understanding of the workings of the world.

Like us, they will largely see us, jointly, the way we talk about the German people of 1938-as though we were all responsible for supporting insanity, rather than one group of deranged crooks being furiously resisted by a second group.

The first group, powerful all out of proportion to its relative size, only being restrained by the second, out gunned, out financed and out organized. The situation, bad as it is, is still far better than it could be if the simplistic hoodlums had a better grasp of reality and relationships.
(Of course, if that were true, they wouldn't be them, they'd be us.)

Until we succeed, if we succeed, we'll be judged by how it turned out, not how hard we tried.

[Sapphire Blue]

30. I'm still saying this right now:

The similarities between bush & Hitler are often addressed; but what about: http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Sapphire%20Blue/3

[mdmc]

57. thanks for this link

:kick:

[WritersBlock]

31. I'll say I went to my grave trying.

Even if he & Cheney are not impeached by this Congress, I'll never stop pushing for investigations into, and accountability for, the crimes of this administration.

[The2ndWheel]

33. Because there is no "him"

And if there was, it certainly isn't Bush. It's our system based on endless growth in every aspect of life. That's why we can't stop anything.

[genie_weenie]

34. I had other priorities. n/t

[mnhtnbb]

35. That the majority of citizens had become mindless robots--too busy

shopping, consuming, and watching the tube to understand their rights were being taken from them. They did not protest when the election was stolen in 2000. They did not protest when the country embarked on an illegal war of occupation in Iraq. They did not protest when election fraud spread throughout the country in 2004, resulting in another stolen election. They did not protest when habeas corpus was taken away. They did not protest when Bush assumed the right to order martial law. They did not protest
Bush when he claimed the right to order torture--in spite of existing treaties and international standards.
They did not protest...

Yes, there were those of us who marched, wrote letters, talked to our neighbors, posted on message boards. But there were too few of us to turn the tide. There were too few of us, willing to be arrested, willing
to sacrifice our lives to draw attention to the evil that has overtaken the government of the United States and force it to change.

And I freely admit that I am one of those few not willing to give my life. I think the country is going to have to hit bottom before a sufficient critical mass of opposition will rise up to really change things.

[mdmc]

37. He was too popular

I wouldn't have been cool or electable. Even though I knew the war was wrong, I didn't want to be unpatriotic. It was easier to be an unpatriotic coward then a :patriot: patriot.

[oblivious]

40. Because we were brainwashed. We believed the propaganda.

It was ubiquitous. Unrelenting. On the TV, radio, newspapers, magazines, Internet news sites, discussion boards and blogs.

People who saw through it were dismissed as nutcases, just like in the Soviet Union.

How can you blame us? We're just simpletons.

[UTUSN]

42. My "elected representatives" did not represent me. n/t

[Beelzebud]

46. I worry that future generations won't even ask.

[TayTay]

48. That it took a while, but that we did

America believed in the false promise of Empire and believed that the way to ensure that this country would not be attacked again was to attack first. That this great nation fell to the great delusion of all nations at one time or another: that War is a cure instead of a disease and that America could drink of it but not be contaminated by it. This was a lie, the central lie of the age and one that acted as a poison on the body politic and took a long time to get out of our system.

I can talk about people who didn't buy the lie and who tried to stop it. I can try and convey that just because it took a while for this to be heard, doesn't mean it was a failure. Taking action is not failure. Taking action over and over and over, even in the face of ridicule and resentment is not failure. Perservering in the face of strong opposition is not failure either.

I will say that many, many courageous people stood up and fought and that it took a while for America to wake up and realize that we can't achieve democracy and peace at the end of a gun. It took a while for people to understand that our civil rights and protections from undue intrusion by the government are one of the most precious things we have. And I will talk about the people who fought back.

Doesn't anyone else remember how hard this fight has been? Read this link, it is a speech that NY Times writer Chris Hedges gave at Rockford College in May of 2003, when America was still in the grip of war fever and when patriotism meant unquestioning devotion to the war effort. Mr. Hedges was vilified for epxressing views that are now common, 3 1/2 years later. He was nearly chased off the stage for this and was ridiculed in the press. (His employer, the NY Times, gave him an official reprimand for compromising the impartiality of the Times by his truth telling at this event.) This was hard to do. Damn hard to do. Honor that. Honor the actual moral courage of those who stood up. Let the cynicism fall away for just a few minutes and instead of looking for more villains, praise some actual heroes. It is one way to find more of them, after all.

http://www.rrstar.com/localnews/your_community/rockford/0521hedgesspeech.shtml

[Zenlitened]

60. Excellent post.

... I can try and convey that just because it took a while for this to be heard, doesn't mean it was a failure. Taking action is not failure. Taking action over and over and over, even in the face of ridicule and resentment is not failure. Perservering in the face of strong opposition is not failure either.

[Larry Ogg]

53. We trusted blindly those who would keep us in the dark, we did not demand accountability,

but rather selfish prosperity and drunken revelry. We no longer recognized the past and forgot from whence we came as even our dreams hade changed in that we no longer had to care about others nor the future.

[mod mom]

58. I closed my small business to work on exposing the '04 theft in Ohio.

Prior to the '04 election: I volunteered full time for the Kerry Campaign, organizing my area GOTV efforts. I used my business as a mouth piece, including some very controversial window displays. I work with True Majority, DFA, Move-On and ACT (registered a couple dozen new voters). I held several very successful fund raisers for a number of different organizations as well as the campaign. I marched prior to and during the illegal, immoral occupation of Iraq.

After the election, I closed my store after 17 1/2 years to work on exposing what occurred. I worked locally and nationally with several organizations on electgion investigation/reform. I paid attention and tried to keep others informed on just what was occurring. We travelled to DC w our children to be part of the Sept '05 Anti-war protest.

[johnaries]

61. Never say "it can't happen here". It CAN!

Many of us tried to stop him, but it was not enough. "The price of freedom is constant vigilance".

[Gregorian]

62. The fight for liberty is never done.

And the criminals get smarter.

There was no sound of breaking glass. Suddenly the intruder was upon us. In retrospect, it is perfectly obvious. But this is a country of laws. And even those provided by the Constitution are no longer so simple.

Simply put, they had the power. We had to defend. But first we had to know.

Keep your eyes open, and your mind sharp.

[blues90]

63. To be honest

I will come right out and say most americans were asleep and completely brainwashed fools who sat complacent in front of their mindless tv boxes , ignorenet and afraid to speak out and unite to save their own country from this murdering freak and all those who came before him to make this grand illusion possible .

We were once again sold a grand lie during 9/11 just as we were when Kennedy was shot down and we once again bought it .

Oh but we did protest before this attack on Iraq but sadly not in great enough numbers and not long enough .

I will say we were always a nation for war going in for the big win no matter what the cost in lives , no matter what the lie and no matter how the future was stolen .

For over 6 years we sat by once again holding the hope that elections were a fair practice or that politicians would somehow be there to save our ass . We put politicians on a pedestall and gave into their grand speeches of long forgotten but once again revived promises of hope and fairness all under the name of a god .

Will we ever learn .

[The Backlash Cometh]

64. I'll tell them that my disconnect from society became complete

in December of 2000. And my rebirth began in November of 2006. In between, I was often mistaken for a malcontent, depressed, low-self esteem, anti-social, often abused, and rarely recognized, Cassandra.

[Stevepol]

65. The American people did all they could do. They voted for Gore

in 2000; they voted in a near landslide for Kerry in 04.

They voted in such a landslide (about 7% more than the "official" results) for Dems in the off-year elections of 06 that Congress changed hands despite the rigging and flipping of votes by the machines.

When criminals are allowed to count votes in total secrecy without any verification, it's impossible for the people to do anything. It's not a democracy for God's sake.

Quit blaming the American people. They (We) did all they (we) could conceivably do. If you want to blame anybody, blame the newspapers and the people in positions of leadership who should have been able (who should be able to figure out today) what was going to happen and yet stuck their heads deeper in the sand, who refused to despute the rants of the Far Right, who refused to support people like Conyers, Steve Freeman, Mark Crispin Miller, et al.

The American people get it, as many of them as have been exposed to the truth.

DON'T BLAME THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.

[mirandapriestly]

66. It's all that "incompetence" that has enpowered him and his

operation to continue functioning against the majority of public opinion. (sarcasm, in case there is any doubt)

[LWolf]

67. I will say:

I opposed him with every vote, every letter, every demonstration, every breath. Not enough Americans joined me in that opposition. They were either determined to allow and excuse every word, every act, every lie, every atrocity, by this administration, or they were too worried about appearing "moderate" and "centrist" to stand up and be counted among the confirmed opposition. They were content with disagreeing after the fact, and with nominating and electing those who did the same. They were content with bitching and moaning, but wouldn't assign their votes and political support to those who stood clearly outside the circle of compliance.

In other words, America was more talk than action.

[Oeditpus Rex]

68. 'What more could we have done?'

"For all the rhetoric about 'speaking truth to power' et al, the fact remains that U.S. citizens have very little influence. We have rights? They have the power to deny them. We have voices? They have louder ones. We can vote? They own the voting mechanism. We have the ability to organize? They are organized.

"The one thing we failed to do was to become as vicious as they are. It's just not in our nature, I guess."


That's what I'd say.

[guruoo]

69. The failures occured prior to the 2000 election

Americans snoozed while the wingnuts were busy stacking ammo
and assembling their armies in preparation to storm the castle gates.

(edited for clarity)

[mdmc]

71. Everyone thought that it would be easy and popular

Like Paris Hilton...

Who would oppose Paris Hilton:shrug:

[Kerrytravelers]

72. Mr. kt & I volunteered full time for Kerry in swing states so we could look our kids in the eye.

I took time off work to be a full-time volunteer. Mr. kt did weekends and took a few days off as needed. We were part of the first swing state group and served as a template for other swing state groups. We won the area (not the entire state) we worked in. We did everything from knocking on doors, phone banking, marching, protesting, contacting our representatives, gave money, writing LTTE- everything. We ever left "fact sheets' behind in public places for swing voters to see. We did everything. I can look my future children in the eye and say "I did this for you," because we did.