How can you be pro choice but have a problem with the death penalty? (Cont'd)

[originalpckelly]

Here was the original post, which has become extremely long:
How can you be pro choice but have a problem with the death penalty?

"I’m a bit shocked that so many at D.U. are against the hanging of Saddam, as well as being against the death penalty in general.

Are we not the party that advocates a woman’s right to choose? While I agree that it is an important right to have, and I have argued for it vociferously with people who are against it, I do think that abortion means killing a living being. Abortion terminates the life of something living and INNOCENT. We fight to allow women in our country to have the right to choose to terminate pregnancy for reasons which only she need know, but we are against the death penalty for people who are GUILTY of heinous crimes.

Wow. Explain how that isn’t a big old' conundrum.

An example of a case where the death penalty should have been used is Charles Manson.
Explain to me how his continuing to draw breath is a real and true punishment? To this very day he finds ways to torture the families of his victims. He is not repentant, he has certainly not learned a lesson. What is his continued purpose on this planet?

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. I’m alright with the death penalty. There are people who deserve to die for the crimes they have committed.

I understand the other view that an “eye for an eye” leaves everyone eyeless.
But is that really true? The US isn’t doling out ANY punishment for Osama Bin Laden.
If he’s ever found (ahem, found ALIVE) are you against him dying? I don’t really think that it IS an eye for an eye when someone is put to death. I think when the death penalty is used, it takes a terrible evil out of the world.

I choose to support a women’s right to choose, but I can’t be bothered to fight for the rights of a murdering monster who had no care for anyone elses rights. You reap what you sow.

These are my opinions, and it isn't meant to piss people off and start WWIII. It's how I think and I am interested in hearing what other people are thinking. I respect the opinions of others (here anyway) even when we disagree, so I am hoping this doesn't start a name calling all out brawl."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=3008486&mesg_id=3008486

[The Straight Story]

1. One must define what life is, before they can define what death is

Good luck with that one :)

[Tom Joad]

2. Saddam was a witness.

I certainly do not want to kill witnesses to crimes, even if they are guilty of great crimes themselves. Saddam was a witness. He had accessories.

[TankLV]

3. Because they are NOT the same thing.

One involves a bunch of CELLS in a WOMAN'S body, not independant "life" - same as skin cells or wacking off throwing away sperm in a kleenax, or losing eggs in a woman's monthly cycle.

The other involves taking an existing independant LIFE.

Are you clear now?

[tbyg52]

9. Exactly

I don't approve of late-term abortions except in the case of medical necessity, but that is not the same thing as wanting to outlaw them. If it is in your body, it is YOU. Period.

[Llewlladdwr]

30. Silly me.

I had no idea that skin cells could spontaneously develop into a human being.

[Greyhound]

4. False premise.

One is the exercise of a personal choice, the other is institutional murder.

[Bjornsdotter]

16. Ding ding ding

That's my thought too.

Cheers

[Greyhound]

27. ...and a very happy New Year to you. n/t

:party::toast::party:

[pennylane100]

5. Also, how can you be anti-choice and pro-war.

That seems to be a strange contradiction that most republicans do not recognize.

[leftchick]

7. yes indeed

"we vote pro-life" sticker right next to "bush/cheney 04" :crazy:

Now THAT is fucked up!

[uberllama42]

6. The death penalty does not accomplish anything

It is just more senseless killing. I really don't see what killing Charles Manson would do. He would just be another victim of murder. I can tell you why I support a woman's right to choose: because some women will get abortions whether or not they are legal and safe. I am in college and I knew several women who have had pregnancy scares. I know that I would not like for them to die getting a back alley abortion. Of course, if abortion were illegal here, they would just go to Canada, but not everbody has that option. Poor women would die in the course of abortion. I think my stances are perfectly consistent: they are both based around the prevention on needless deaths.

[Balbus]

8. I don't know what this is a continuation of, but abortion is

killing a life about as much as having a tumor removed is killing a life - or liposuction. Living tissue is being removed but I fail to see how it is a "life."

[Vincardog]

10. Exactly. Removing a wart is killing living tissue not taking a life.

IF you believe Abortion terminates the life of something living and INNOCENT.

Choose not to have one.

Why should your personnel beliefs have any impact on anyone Else's personnel medical decisions?

A clump of cells is no more a person than an acorn is an oak tree.

[originalpckelly]

28. Aren't the cells of an implanted embryo even slightly different from everyday...

skin cells? Or fat cells?

Those skin or fat cells are alive, but they did not evolve to produce another human being. One type of cell evolved to provide protection for cells of other types in the human body, the other cell evolved to store energy.

The cells inside a mother's womb evolved to produce another human being.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fat_cell

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epidermis_%28skin%29

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reproductive_cells

[fishwax]

11. you're still at this?

;)

What's the conflict between supporting a woman's right to choose and opposing the death penalty? I don't get it.

[noamnety]

12. apparently they didn't get the desired responses in the other thread.

Perhaps in this one, everyone will be enlightened enough to get that forcing women as a class into reproductive slavery is directly related to state sanctioned vengeance killings.

:popcorn:

[leftchick]

17. whoa!

:applause:

:)

[fishwax]

19. that sums it up nicely

:)

[uppityperson]

22. I still don't understand how Charlie Manson is still torturing people

perhaps his mother should've had an abortion?

[originalpckelly]

24. Actually, I didn't post the OP, but I thought it would be appropriate...

to show people why the other thread started.

[mondo joe]

13. Easy: Abortion is a right to autonomy over one's own body; capital punishment

is the state meting out death.

Big difference, no conflict in supporting one but not the other.

[BlooInBloo]

14. How can you walk, but have a problem chewing gum?

[mondo joe]

15. How can you be anti-choice and but have a problem with rape?

After all, the rapist is just using the woman's body for a little while, right?

And if she gave consent, what right does she have to change her mind later? Shouldn't she have to be responsible for her choice?


:banghead:

[fishwax]

18. when a woman goes out on a date with a man, doesn't she consent to having sex with him?

after all, it's a "known possible outcome."

And once she consents to sex, of course, she automatically consents to conception and to carrying the child to term.

:banghead:

[uppityperson]

20. I missed this new thread, here is some advice from other thread.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=3008486&mesg_id=3014612

Here is some advice for you to take as you wish, or not

Discussion advice: When you are discussing something that you have a strong opinion about, it is a good idea to not just give HOW you feel but why you feel that way. Asking others how they feel is a good thing, if you are trying to elicit their opinions, but it does not absolve you of the role of telling why you feel as you do. To simplify, if someone asks you a question about why you state something, answer. Don't answer only by asking them what they think, but tell why you said what you did. Then ask what they think. Repetitively answering a question with another question is NOT good discussion technique.

Next bit of advice: Do not share your computer/username with another person as it gets really difficult to be talking with someone and have it be another person. Personalities come through the keyboard and people can tell. They can be fooled for a while, but they will figure it out. I am not accusing anyone in particular of doing this, just throwing it out and letting it stick where it will.

Finally: There is a difference between discussing to reinforce your beliefs, discussing to find out others beliefs, discussing to consider opposing viewpoints and compare with your own and perhaps learn, discussing to irritate others. Each has its uses, make sure you are in the right forum for what you intend.

Questions not related to discussion manners: What have you done to help living, out of the uterus, human beings? What are YOU doing to make the world a better place? What are you doing to help babies, children, people in need? Have you adopted any, or fostered any, or been a BigBrother/Sister to any? Do you donate your time, energies or money to help those who HAVE been born and are suffering?

If you are sorry, get your butt out there and DO something beyond starting another thread. If "I'm sorry" is only words, bah to you.

[originalpckelly]

29. Thanks for the advice. I just got really sad, I don't even know exactly what it was...

maybe it was just emotions after trying to think about a really complicated matter.

I don't know how you feel about the discussions people on DU, or for that matter anywhere on the web or even in reality-reality, but I kind of think they're important.

In our own little way, we are democracy. 300 million people can't really debate each other, it's kind of impossible. But two people can do it very well, and if there are 150 million pairs, it's an indirect way of 300 million people having a debate.

I don't think it is as important as doing good works in one's community, but it's pretty important. We're the decision makers in America, we ought to be having these debates.

I'm sorry once again for last night, I was tired. I hope you can understand.

(After thinking about it for a while, it wasn't wasted time. It's been making me think hard about my positions on a whole lot of different things.)

[uppityperson]

21. So you are pro-killing adults, but abortions are wrong

How is Charlie Manson torturing the families of his victims? Because they haven't got to kill him yet? Having him locked up in a cell for the rest of his life is not punishment? You argue that a potential human should have more of a right to live than living breathing people? I think you are saying it depends on the intentions of the person vs intentions of the potential person. Right? Oh dear.

As was written this morning on the other thread, nice succinct comment so I am copying here:

666.

If you are pro death penalty you WANT people who are condemned to be put to death.

If you are pro choice you can be opposed to any abortions happening but think the woman's ownership of her body is more important principle.

You seem to be pro-killing those that are alive and "deserve to die" (ignoring those that may have been sentenced to die in error) yet anti-abortion since it is killing an innocent potential being. Oh dear.

[AnnieBW]

23. I'm Not Upset At Saddam Being Dead

I'm just wondering why the big rush to execute him. After all, dead men tell no tales.

[NorthernSpy]

25. alrighty then: you can execute all the criminals hiding out in your body...

Fair enough?


:eyes:



My answer makes as much sense as your question.

[originalpckelly]

26. I think that's the funniest response I have ever seen...

:rofl:

It's not exactly my question thought, it's LibraLiz1973 question. Though I chimed in, wowza!

[MonkeyFunk]

31. I didn't get involved in the other thread

because it was so huge.

I am adamantly pro-choice, and I am adamantly anti-death-penalty. I find no contradiction in those views.

I believe a fetus is not a person. I believe the government shouldn't kill people.

The whole argument you make is ridiculous, with all due respect.

[originalpckelly]

33. Well, I kind of didn't make the original argument...

oh well, I should have put LibraLiz's user name up there. I couldn't before the editing period was over.

I wasn't too keen on comparing the death penalty to abortion, in order to approve of the death penalty.

But I posted that in order to give context.

I was personally more interested in abortion alone.

[MadHound]

32. Easy enough, I don't believe that a collection of cells inside a womans' body

Is actually life. Whereas a body at the end of a rope, or strapped to a gurney is a real, live human being, and their death is nothing more, or less, than state sanctioned murder. Oh, by the by, it costs US taxpayers more to implement a death penalty than to incarcerate them for the rest of their life. In addition, we've seen how easy it has become to try and convict an innocent person of murder. Better that this person is released from imprisonment, rather than having to face the family and apologize for putting said innocent man to death.

It is a religious viewpoint that considers life to begin at conception. Why should a particular religious viewpoint take precedence? If that is the case, why not use the viewpoint of certain African tribes, who don't truly believe that a child is a human until after the second birthday?(this is due to high infant mortality) Why should we have this fundy viewpoint forced upon all of the country? This is, after all, still a secular state:shrug:

[novalib]

34. "Abortion terminates the life of something living and INNOCENT"

Oh, GAG ME WITH A SPOON!

"Abortion terminates the life of something living and INNOCENT"

NO IT DOES NOT!!!!!!!

Abortion terminates a PARASITE living in -- and TAKING NOURISHMENT FROM -- its host.

Besides, the DEATH PENALTY KILLS A HUMAN BEING!!

Abortion merely terminates something like a tumor -- DEFINITELY NOT A HUMAN BEING!!!!

SEE THE DIFFERENCE????!!!!

[Moderator]

35. locking....

Please don't continue arguments
from other threads.