Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Sometimes, when you hunt a monster, you become one (my take on Saddam)

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (01/01/06 through 01/22/2007) Donate to DU
 
The Straight Story Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 10:30 PM
Original message
Sometimes, when you hunt a monster, you become one (my take on Saddam)
I have no problem killing someone in self defense of myself or my family. Would not bother me in the slightest and I would lose no sleep over it. In the heat of battle, you do what must be done.

Today was not the heat of battle.

I remember two fine men who waged war, Generals Lee and Grant. Hundreds of thousands killed, terrible conditions for prisoners of war, it was all a mess.

But in the end, they rode their separate ways.

Saddam was no Lee to be sure. And in the end, the Iraqi government made the choice to hang their old leader.

Had Saddam died in battle, there would be no discussion such as we see. He did not. And his captors chose to do to him what they feared he would have done to them. They killed him.

At what point does one step above the fray, above that which once was and aspire to that which we hope to be?

Letting Saddam live, and serve life in prison, would have shown a step up the evolutionary scale. That the hate which drove him to kill had not infected others.

To show others that indeed we do value life, even when it is one that has been so horribly led. To show that we are not the same as those we rail against.

Had saddam done the things to my family that he had to others, I would have lived my life trying to put a bullet in his head. I would have become the monster I wanted to kill, I would have sought justice.

Some tonight have that justice. Others have an empty feeling that we became what we have just seen killed.

He was no longer a threat, he was...contained (an interesting term from the old days and our relationship with Iraq).

Saddam punished others with death for his own sick reasons. But reasons to him which made some sense. We punished today for our own reasons, with death.

He is no better than those who meted out this sentence. And in one small way they are no better either. Each killed based on their criteria - and while one may be better than the other in moral terms, they still both end up with the same end. Someone was executed.

He made his choices. He played the game, and in his region of the world he knew what the outcome could well be. And in a way he helped foster that mindset. And now he is a victim of his own success.

He created a monster, and those that sprang from his world stayed a monster on some levels.

The monster was hunted, and the hunters became the monster under different guise.

The executions did not stop in Iraq when Saddam left, they just got a new label.

And we got yet another corpse.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
alteredstate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 10:34 PM
Response to Original message
1. kicked
and recommended
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Straight Shooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 10:36 PM
Response to Original message
2. Friedrich Nietzsche
"Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster."

This was no execution. They can put lipstick on this pig, it doesn't matter. In the final analysis, this was an assassination.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
The Straight Story Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 10:51 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. That was the quote I was looking for :)
Thanks!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Manifestor_of_Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 10:38 PM
Response to Original message
3. more from Fred....
"When you look into the abyss, realize that the abyss looks into you." --nietzsche

Which could mean the same thing as turning into a monster.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
The Straight Story Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #3
10. Another fine quote
Thanks for posting, will have to use that sometime soon in an OP.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Maat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 10:49 PM
Response to Original message
4. I agree.
I'm not sure that I can explain this well - but my job as a social worker (one of them) was to go in and explain fundamental rights to the most vilest human beings on Earth (those who had tortured or seriously abused children and babies). I worked for Child Protective from 1993 to 2000. After repeatedly doing this, I began to realize that the worst thing that I could imagine was lowering myself to their level. I determined that killing or torturing myself, or having it done in my name, or encouraging or approving of it done in my name, WAS lowering myself to that Level. I hope that makes sense.

I, also, would have no problem defending myself or another from imminent deadly force; however, this travesty does not represent that (the hanging of Saddam and its related commentary).

I hope that what I said makes a bit of sense. I believe that I am agreeing with the OP's point.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
The Straight Story Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Makes a lot of sense to me
you posted well.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Maat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Thanks!
And, thanks for the post, TSS!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
The Straight Story Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. I just hope my post made sense :)
Hard to tell at times....
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Maat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. It makes perfect sense to me!
It brought back memories of the brutal people I have encountered, and how similar their behavior was to *'s. Sad, just sad. It makes me more determined than ever to show my compassion towards my fellow human beings - so, thanks again!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
The Straight Story Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. There is a whole discussion I think that needs to be had
on bush and his crimes.

Damned sad so many in power in the world are so messed up. We outnumber them by many, yet those in power do so much we consider evil.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Maat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 11:40 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. Exactly (n/t)!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
calimary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 12:15 AM
Response to Reply #9
15. And to me, also.
Those who hungered for his death will probably not find it satisfying. It's the hunger for death, period, that may be the priority. Which could explain why, now that this has occurred, bush will see no reason to pull our troops out. They've gotta go on killing for him.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Maat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 01:01 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. You're right; it's so sad (n/t).
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
zonmoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 11:35 PM
Response to Original message
12. our country was a monster for a long time
since the minimum time we became a monster was the end of ww2 and the dropping of the atomic bombs.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 04:45 AM
Response to Reply #12
22. I've never heard a word of regret from the Republicans concerning their
soaking Latin Americans in blood over the years. Republican pResidents have been obsessed with killing off the alleged "leftists" (poor people, villagers, indigenous people, clergy, union workers, teachers, human rights workers) in South and Central America and the Caribbean, and have laid waste to them for decades.

Their favorite puppets which they put in place through coups, etc. threw people out of airplanes, helicopters, slaughtered them mercilessly, forced women prisoners to deliver their babies, took the babies, gave them away to their officers, and killed the mothers, leaving a whole generation of children growing up with military people who stole them from women thrown in prison for political reasons, tortured, then murdered.

Someone posted a photo recently showing people in Santiago, Chile, looking in a river below their street as yet another body of a Pinochet victim floated by in the current. I've heard people discussing the fact, as witnesses from that time, that sight has been witnessed all over Latin America, thanks to the right-wing-Republican-supported dictators.

I encourage anyone who hasn't taken the time to start reading as much as you can about what happened in Argentina, Brazil, Chile, etc., etc., etc. and in Central America, and in the Caribbean.
Don't stop until you feel you've gotten the idea. Once you've looked into it, you'll see there is most surely a pattern which has been repeated endlessly, which leads right back to the right-wing pResidents here.

They don't hate bloody dictators AT ALL. Bloody dictators are FINE with them.

What about Bush's little porky pal, Islam Karimov, in Uzbekistan, who BOILED his Islamic political prisoners? He couldn't have been more adorable with the Bush administration until he tried to shake them down for more money for the use of his country's air bases, then Bush suddenly turned on him, and started accusing him of human rights violations. Right!

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Vidar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 11:48 PM
Response to Original message
14. Fine analysis. We have indeed become the monster, not so
much by the execution itself, but through the travesty of a trial which preceded it. Compare this with the care that was taken to mete out justice at the Nuremberg Trials, & it's readily apparent that justice had nothing to do with it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Maat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 01:05 AM
Response to Reply #14
17. I agree with you there!
Edited on Sat Dec-30-06 01:06 AM by Maat
I guess I could say to my Repuglican relatives, "It's the Due Process, Stupids!"

That's the thing; I, however, am also firmly opposed to the death penalty for the reasons stated above. I respect other opinions and viewpoints, though.

Your post resonated with me.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Vidar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #17
25. Thank you. We & and our puppet court had no legitimate
jurisdiction in this case.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Desertrose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 02:06 AM
Response to Original message
18. I agree with you Straight Story
This will change nothing.

This will not stop the violence in Iraq.

and yes, we have shown absolutely that we are the same- unable to take a higher road...to show a higher regard for human life.

No great lessons here...we are no greater than Saddam.

Who has killed fewer ...Saddam or the US in the name of freedom & democracy?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Usrename Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 04:16 AM
Response to Original message
19. The problem is that we were his captors.
He surrendered to US troops.

And then we let some other folks kill him.

How can anyone in the military not be ashamed?

How can anyone in this country not be ashamed?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LynnTheDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 04:50 AM
Response to Reply #19
23. A US-held POW was killed by the US-appointed & supported government.
And what was the POW executed for?

For signing death warrants.

And then the US-appointed & supported government signed Hussein's death warrant.

Irony doesn't get more ironic.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Usrename Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 05:16 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. The depravity and the cowardice is just beyond comprehension.
Monsters really do exist, don't they? Who are these people and why do the kool-aid drinkers love them so much.

This is almost too much to grog. All we need now is the video, set to some Toby Keith:

Ohhh Justice will be served
And the battle will rage
This big dog will fight
When you rattle his cage
And you'll be sorry that you messed with
The U.S. of A.
'Cause we'll put a boot in your ass
It's the American way

Hey Uncle Sam
Put your name at the top of his list
And the Statue of Liberty
Started shaking her fist
And the eagle will fly
And there's gonna be hell
When you hear Mother Freedom
Start ringing her bell
And itll feel like the whole wide world is raining down on you
Brought to you Courtesy of the Red White and Blue


... are you getting totally sick yet?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Vidar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. Very good point.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 04:18 AM
Response to Original message
20. My thread before I went to bed last night
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Skidmore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 04:19 AM
Response to Original message
21. How about
when you create a monster, you sometimes need to hunt it. That seems more fitting. Unfortunately, besides the Saddam monster, we have the neocon hydra to deal with as well. Equally monstrous.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Gin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #21
27. (IMHO).. Saddham and shrub are more alike than they are different.
g
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
judaspriestess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 05:10 PM
Response to Original message
28. bushie is nothing but a
serial killer plain and simple. Once a serial killer gets that first taste of death they become addicted and keep seeking out that high.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Tue Sep 23rd 2014, 05:48 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (01/01/06 through 01/22/2007) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC