I get damned angry when I see posts at DU that attempt to trivialize the truly monstrous

[Redstone]

crimes that Saddam Hussein committed.

That's just fucking wrong.

For example, trying to paint his genocidal gassing of entire Kurdish towns, his brutal massacres of the Marsh Arabs (and so much more) by saying he was "fighting back against his would-be assassins" is just fucking wrong.

And no, before anyone starts, I am not trying to excuse bush for any of his own psychopathic actions. (That's what a few people usually accuse me of when I post something like this.)

Enough is too fucking much already.

PS: This doesn't have anything to do with pros or cons of the death penalty. I'm talking about people saying "well, how do we know he was all that bad?" We know. The whole world knows.

What's next, "Well, Stalin sent all those people to the Gulags because they needed jobs?"

Redstone

[RoyGBiv]

1. Well said n/t

[scarface2004]

312. if s h is a monster.....

then bush is a em effing monster!

[Horse with no Name]

2. I just thought he deserved a fair and impartial trial

What happened was a sham.
No more than a dog and pony show.

[Rick Myers]

And the gas was supplied by Donny Rumsfeld and GHWB-41!

They even gave Saddam access to US intel sats, for targeting purposes.

[LibraLiz1973]

3. Be prepared. Your about to be told you know nothing

[CatWoman]

22. I'm sorry, Liz

but your post/thread is/was just plain ridiculous.

[Kajsa]

130. I disagree.

And I think Liz took way too much crap for her thread.

[LibraLiz1973]

146. The problem with me is that I didn't understand that Bush's involvement

somehow cleared Saddam of all previous atrocities.

[Kajsa]

177. Bingo!

You hit the nail on the head, my dear!!

[CatWoman]

183. to each his/her own

I stated my opinion; you stated yours.

[Erika]

4. You get angry about the fact we supplied the gas?

You seem to compartmentalize.

Where's your anger about OBL?

[CatWoman]

8. BAM!!

[Redstone]

17. Did you READ my post?

Redstone

[LittleClarkie]

61. Why is lately that when someone says they are pissed about one thing, someone

will invariably ask why they are not pissed about something else, or if they are upset about one thing, they will be asked why they are not upset about something else.

Feeling compassion for Betty Ford? Then why don't you care about those her husband may have hurt, as if the two were mutually exclusive and not possible to feel at the same time.

Feeling bad about the death of a freeper's kid at Christmas time? Where's your anger at those who've died in the Iraq War, again as if it wasn't possible to feel both.

Angry about Saddam? Where's your anger at OBL? At Rummy? At Bush?

The thread isn't about OBL, or Rummy, or Bush. It's about Saddam. One thread at a time, dear, one thread at a time. Starting a thread about one thing doesn't mean you care nothing about anything else.

[Redstone]

71. My point EXACTLY. You get it, don't you? And I appreciate you taking the time

to write that post.

Redstone

[TorchTheWitch]

166. well said

It's entirely possible to chew gum and walk simultaneously, and too ridiculous to have to explain to anyone that it's so.

[uppityperson]

271. exactly and thank you7.

It is ok to express your anger about 1 thing at a time. It doesn't mean you don't care about the rest, but ok to express about 1 at a time. It is interesting, the last months postings have strengthened my opinion about a bunch of posters, both positive and negative, as has not happened for quite some time. Thanks for your posting.

[Eurobabe]

283. Why some might think we are

FreeRepublic! Home of the 100% Black OR White viewpoints. Nothing is purely black OR white. Life is shades of gray.

I put these types of thread on ignore.

[Pacifist Patriot]

291. Sadly it's not just lately.

This is a frustrating and annoying habit I've seen on-line and in real life for many years. Another manifestation of the incredibly poor job we're doing teaching people how to think rationally. I am seriously concerned about our potential for having reasonable problem-solving discussions given the lack of basic logic that abounds. We've become a passive-information-receptive society to our detriment.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

307. Our detriment and the cabal's benefit. No longer is it acceptable to view

any problems or issues as multi-dimensional and solvable by a rational recognition of the root causes.

We are given snippets of information, designed to create emotional reactions. Once the emotions are stirred, we are either subjected to a 24/7 barrage or given bits and pieces at opportune times.

All meant to drive reaction, rather than thoughtful discussion.

As you can probably tell, your post really resonated with me. MKJ

[Pacifist Patriot]

313. Yep. What kind of geek am I? I've actually lain awake at night...

trying to figure out if it is the technology of mass media, our pedagoguery, or what has brought us to this appallingly low level of critical thinking.

[Infinite Hope]

334. Amen! n/t

[Left Is Write]

62. Is that what he said?

Saddam Hussein was supported by the United States. That doesn't make him any less a monster. He was convicted of 148 murders, but does anyone here really think that was all the murder and torture he perpetrated? I'm never happy about the death penalty, but let's call Saddam Hussein what he was. A monster.

What does bin Laden have to do with Redstone's post? Sounds like a strawman to me.

[Name removed]

161. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Skidmore]

293. Yes, he was a monster, and

those in the US who handed him the tools of destruction and stood by supplying him with parts and materials are equally monstrous. Those who looked aside while he committed his atrocities should have been on the scaffold with him, if that is the justice we are saying is his due. I'm no Saddam apologist. Believe me, I had no love for the man and sat many a night trying to shelter my small children while the missiles supplied to him by our government rained down on the city I lived in. Those who helped him get there and maintained his power are equally deserving of the same justice then. I think the point many are making has nothing to do with the horrible nature of his crimes but that, on principle, the same justice is due many others with him.

BTW, I do not support the death penalty.

[JNelson6563]

318. Yes, but he was OUR monster

until he outlived his usefulness, of course.

Julie

[Left Is Write]

320. Does the fact that he received support and funding from the U.S...

make him any less a monster?

[Skidmore]

321. The question should be "What kind of a monster does it make us?".

[Left Is Write]

324. Not if we're discussing the OP.

The OP specifically gave opinions about Saddam Hussein. The fact that the US government is not innocent does not mitigate the horrors of Saddam Hussein's reign.

[Skidmore]

327. No it doesn't absolve Saddam of his responsibility, but I will not

turn a blind eye toward the guilt born by our nation either.

[Left Is Write]

335. I don't think we're doing that here -

The two concepts are not mutually exclusive.

[JNelson6563]

337. No, but does he deserve all the credit?

I mean, he couldn't've done it without us now could he?

Funny how there's little mention of that.

Julie

[WhollyHeretic]

114. I know. He didn't mention any environmental concerns in the OP either

WTF? He obviously doesn't care that environment is being destroyed.

He also didn't mention habeas corpus in his post? How could he not care about that?










I normally hate doing this but I'm going to include the just because of the idiocy displayed in this thread.

[Stockholm]

340. OBL who?

big fat sigh.

[Synnical]

5. And I get truly angry when I see posts supporting the death penalty

[Redstone]

14. I told you I didn't care about the pros or cons of the execution.

Redstone

[Synnical]

27. Excuse me? You dare talk about right and wrong

and then state you don't care?

Lazy, easy and annoying.

-Cindy in Fort Lauderdale

[Redstone]

35. Hey, it's easy to be easy when you're easy.

Redstone

[Synnical]

72. Yeah, Interesting comment

I'll keep it in mind as I read your posts here on DU.

-C.

[Redstone]

122. Be my guest. You're welcome to whatever opinion you want to have of me.

After all, I'm easy.

Redstone

[Telly Savalas]

224. Easy like Sunday morning

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92VmVAztSUI

[The Wielding Truth]

229. Doesn't the whole thing make you sick? Again Bush Co plays a hand

but not for any good or just purpose.
Now, it's to turn over a new leaf in the Iraq Victory plan.
Saddam was the Butcher of Baghdad, so why didn't we just let his own people make the decisions on the timing of his execution? Why did * again have to be the "decider". Sick and wrong. Political crap. That's what stinks about it. Think of one decision made made by * that had anyone in mind but * and his cohorts.

[MichiganVote]

19. I don't read that this poster supports the death penalty.Isn't that a fight for another string?

[Left Is Write]

100. This is about the poster's opinion of *Saddam Hussein*

It is not about his opinion of the death penalty.

I am anti-capital punishment. I also think Saddam Hussein was a monster. Are the two thoughts mutually exclusive? Redstone did not give his opinion of the death penalty.

[CatWoman]

6. I'm sorry

but without a fair trial, all I am left with is what "someone" said he did.

[POAS]

11. What we are left with is

revenge. But then that is what the death penalty is about.

[Redstone]

21. You didn't see the pictures of all the dead Kurds? That's not "someone saying."

Redstone

[CatWoman]

25. if this is the case

why wasn't he found "guilty" of that act?

far as I could tell, Saddam was found guilty for other "crimes".

[Redstone]

57. And that makes a difference, why?

Redstone

[CatWoman]

66. well, 148 versus "hundreds of thousands" makes a huge difference

to me, anyway.

why wasn't the man convicted of the crimes "you" described?

[Redstone]

83. Becausethat was supposed to be the NEXT PHASE of his trial, that's why.

But they decided that killing 148 people was enough, without going on to the next thing.

For Christ's sake, people get convicted of killing ONE person, that's usually enough to put them away. 148 is a pretty big number in and of itelf.

Haven't you been reading the newspapers?

Redstone

[CatWoman]

98. I'm sorry, but that doesn't make a lot of sense

try him on the easy stuff first?

We all know who was running this show, and we all know it was in their best interests to get the salacious stuff out as much as possible.

After all, that's all we heard for the past couple years - rape room this, gassed Kurds that.

It just doesn't add up.

Again, I'm not saying Saddam did or didn't do anything. I'm saying that what he was found guilty of falls very short of what our govt. kept throwing out there.

[Nicole]

138. Exactly what happened with McVeigh

McVeigh was tried in Federal court for the deaths of 8 federal agents. Since he received the death penalty in that case, Oklahoma didn't try him for the deaths of 161 Oklahoma civilians.

Terry Nichols didn't receive the death penalty in federal court so he was tried in Oklahoma on state charges for the 161 deaths.

[Redstone]

151. Thank you, thank you. Maybe someone will listen to you, since they won't listen to me.

Redstone

[barb162]

245. I listen to you. You did good, dear

Excellent post.
He was a mass murderer

[CatWoman]

187. I see

and we invaded Oklahoma City, spent billions and lost thousands of lives in the process.

All neat and tidy.

thanks, I feel better now.

too bad they didn't just get him for jay walking; we may have saved a few billion.

[originalpckelly]

190. But that's not the point of this discussion. The discussion is whether...

Saddam was a bad guy or not, and why there are some DUers who try to mitigate his "bad guy"ness .

I'm against the war in Iraq, yet I also think Saddam was a bad guy.

[CatWoman]

203. however

it was the point of "my" discussion.

[originalpckelly]

220. Don't you think it's wrong to hi-jack a thread on a different topic...

to suit yourself?

Why not just start a thread with your opinion on what you posted?

[CatWoman]

222. happens all the time

I'll cry you a river.

[Nicole]

214. No, you don't see

I was replying to this post of Redstone's:

"Because that was supposed to be the NEXT PHASE of his trial, that's why.

But they decided that killing 148 people was enough, without going on to the next thing."

I was pointing out they did the same in McVeigh's case. Killing 8 was enough to get him convicted & sentenced to death. They could only execute him once so why try him again for the other deaths?
Same with Saddam, whether he was tried for 148 versus "hundreds of thousands", he can only be executed once.

How you got "we invaded OKC, spent billions & lost thousands of lives in the process" out of that makes no sense to me. But hey, if it makes you feel better to think that then it's all good.

[CatWoman]

221. no, "YOU" don't see

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

[Nicole]

232. Wrong

Point me to my post where I ever agreed with Saddam's execution. Point me to my post where I applauded his execution. Or where I even suggested the US should have tried him. Here's a hint, you won't find those posts because I never made them.

Once more, I posted to point out that he couldn't be executed more than once so that might be why he was only tried once. I used McVeigh's trial as an example.

Is it really that hard to understand what I was saying? Why do you insist on putting things in my post I never wrote?

[CatWoman]

344. I suppose you threw me for a loop

by bringing McVeigh into this.

My head exploded. sorry.

[Nicole]

352. No problem

I only mentioned McVeigh because his was the only case of being tried for the lesser deaths that I could think of at the time.

Thanks for the apology. I'm sorry for causing your head to explode.

[boilerbabe]

379. That link answers my question as to why they wound up

with the trial venue that they did. Devious!

[sistersofmercy]

247. No they knew they couldn't convict

Give me a break.

[BushLiesDaily]

275. Actually the death of 148 people

who rebelled against him - would be called treason in this country and be punishable by the same way...

I wonder why the so-called 'Butcher of Baghdad' (foreign swarthy person division, not our very own) wasn't tried for the crimes that our media portrayed daily, that of 'so-called' hundreds of thousands, the million or so Iranians that died in an unjust war, or the Kurds that died by gas by the hands of ...someone...

There is plenty of questions surrounding the issue of the Kurdish gassing...

Have we done the right thing? Is mission once again accomplished? Better not for Saddam to languish beside Manuel Noreiga, be banished to Devil's island or Crawford, Texas for that matter, instead of creating a martyr?

[lumberjack_jeff]

284. AndBesides, we might have learned something in that "next phase"...

... that we didn't want to know.

This trial wasn't a search for truth or a quest for justice. It was a hit on someone who could implicate the shooter.

Saddam took secrets to his grave that we needed to know.

[Shakespeare]

336. But we couldn't let it get to that next phase, because WE would be implicated.

It's WHY we didn't "go on to the next thing" that leaves me feeling sick. THAT is what horrifies me about all of this. Yes, Saddam was an evil motherfucker. But he was evil with our assistance, and here we sit, our government having happily helped him along to a hangman's noose before the entire truth could be told. There is time enough to fully examine his crimes before moving on to the ultimate punishment, but we were certainly in quite a rush, weren't we?

I don't think *anyone* is suggesting that he's not a despicable person, but the responsibility is ours to NOT be despicable in the way we handled the trial and (I believe premature) execution.

I'm disgusted and ashamed with the whole affair.

[boilerbabe]

378. I think they were going to try him on those next...

But the appeal didn't go through so they got him on the first set of offences. Though I never got the impression that that trial was exactly a legitimate example of jurisprudence.

How come they didn't do this at Nuremburg, anyway?

[Malikshah]

218. Cause studies show that Iran's gas did it in Halabja, but hey

in the orgiastic ecstasy of self-righteousness and hackneyed outrage, why let little things like facts get in one's way.

Saddam was not innocent. He was an atrocious dictator who's actions cost hundreds of thousands of lives.

Having him tried in a Kangaroo court with a rigged outcome didn't help.

Having him executed on Eid al-Adha (Saturday to Sunnis) contravening the law didn't help (it's Sunday for the Shi'ites and we know who wears the pants now in Iraq-- this date just shoved it folks' faces)

Yup-- but don't let that get in the way of one's moral outrage.

Glad to know we have folks who can judge who among us should be executed. Makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

[CatWoman]

225. please read this thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

thanks.

[Malikshah]

306. Thanks-- read part of it last night-- also read Cole's salon piece

www.juancole.com

My post was more in reference to the torch wielding villagers in this thread who try to drown out statements of reason.

Best,

me

[leesa]

311. That is an excellent article. Oh man, this things gonna blow, huh?

So is this Step B of the troop escalation plan? Certainly we'll need more troops after these events.

[Mojorabbit]

341. I guess you did not see this

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
If you are going to try and execute someone at least the charges should be proven. I am sure there were a gazillion things he could have been tried for. I guess I just believe in the rule of law.

[babylonsister]

41. Many people, those that lived, have been outspoken:

Please take the time to read some of this. It's proof.

http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/engMDE140082001!Op...

[Redstone]

64. Thank you for a rational voice.

Redstone

[babylonsister]

102. Props really go to DUer serioustan, but I've read about the horrors.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Hi, Redstone, the voice of reason. Happy New Year!

[CatWoman]

75. could not these people or their relatives be called to tesify

against him?

I'm trying to wrap my mind around this thing as best as possible.

Of all the "horrific" things I've heard Saddam accused of, he is found "guilty" of much lesser crimes.

2 plus 2 does not equal 4 here.

[babylonsister]

92. OK. They picked one instance of Saddam's crimes, but there were

many more that were never addressed. The range of his crimes would have taken years to prosecute individually.
It's the same scenario (on a smaller scale) if someone kills 10 people; they nail him/her on one or two solids they can prove.

[boilerbabe]

381. Thanks for the link--recommended reading n/t

[Judi Lynn]

295. CatWoman, I just hate remembering the time he had his soldiers throw the babies out of the incubator

onto the floor! Now that was really cruel, wasn't it?

Oh, wait! They got caught in that lie, didn't they?

Never mind. It's surely their right to mold public perception. How else would the fool the idiotic among us who feed on their hate campaigns designed to generate approval for their murderous, dishonest actions?

[leftchick]

298. yes indeed

[Monkeyman]

7. Again Remember our kids are there now on lies

What about the other madman in the world

[CatWoman]

10. Also remember the bill we have rung up

both monetarily in lies, for what, 3 fucking people?

I wonder how much hanging the other said men will cost us.

[Redstone]

86. This isn't about "the other madman." I guess you didn't READ what I said about that.

Redstone

[Lars39]

9. The "Saddam gassed the Kurds" claim is controversial...

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article1779.ht...

[originalpckelly]

13. No, it isn't:

http://www.hrw.org/reports/1993/iraqanfal/

[Redstone]

93. Once again, I appreciate your participation.

Redstone

[originalpckelly]

170. I'm sorry that people were so anxious to read what they wanted in your post...

that they would post an example of what you were talking about.



These have been a bad couple of days for DU, haven't they?

[sistersofmercy]

251. Actually it is and the Iraqi forces had just cleared out of the area

reports exist that it was the Iranian chems that gased the village.

[originalpckelly]

Specifically this section:

http://hrw.org/reports/1993/iraqanfal/APPENDIXC.htm

[sistersofmercy]

254. Five years after the event, nope, my money goes on the Iranians

Did you read the it "appears" part? They are not stating firsthand knowledge only "eyewitness accounts." Big difference. Now if you take a look at some the UN centers bombed by Israel in Lebanon there are firsthand accounts by Un workers.

[MichiganVote]

26. Oh, please....Hussein was a barbarian not a teddy bear with a bad temper

[blitzen]

30. right...Iran and Iraq were gassing each other...Kurds were, tragically, "collateral damage"

Saddam was not tried for gassing the Kurds because the case would have been weak

[Psephos]

77. The case was bullet-proof

But then, there are Holocaust-denier conventions, too. Ahmadinejad just sponsored one.

The Kurds are pissed they didn't get their chance to have the mountains of evidence become part of the official court record.

Think occasionally of the suffering of which you spare yourself the sight.
- Albert Schweitzer

[L A Woman]

37. that is on par with "the holocaust never happened"

yes he most certainly did gas the Kurds.

The most absurd thing about this entire war is the U.S knowledge (and acceptance) of the heinous crimes committed by Saddam Hussein - but that doesn't mean he shouldnt pay for those crimes. It might be a trophy for Bush (in his mind) but more importantly it does give Iraqis some closure on a very ugly chapter in their lives. Now, if only they could get closure on the ugly chapter we are creating....

[originalpckelly]

45. I'd say it was a mini-Holocaust.

So sad to see people deny horrors.

[Lars39]

56. Back that truck up a minute!

There is a *huge* difference in not being aware of information and in being a Holocaust denier.

[originalpckelly]

63. I'm sorry, I mistook your ignorance for willful denial of Saddam's crimes..

against humanity. I hope you'll understand why I might be a little angry about that.

[Lars39]

70. Apologies accepted.

[On the Road]

52. The Claim is NOT That There Was No Chemical Warfare

The claim is that Saddam gassed Iranians and that the Iranians gassed the Kurds.

It's about who pulled the trigger on which group.

[originalpckelly]

68. I refer you to the HRW report.

That is an extremely credible source.

[sistersofmercy]

259. Yes and it states "appears" did you read that or just skip over it? n/t

[blitzen]

80. read the link provided by the poster before you say that...

and not just that link--there's plenty of other info available....The fact is that lots of official investigations (including CIA, etc.) have concluded that the truth regarding that incident remains hard to determine--Iran may have been equally responsible, and the Kurds' deaths may have been unintended collateral damage from an act of war (Iraq vs. Iran), not an act of genocide by Saddam "against his own people."

I have no desire to "defend Saddam." But I do think that we should carefully scrutinize media myths and propaganda--so that we will be able to recognize them in the future.

[rman]

309. Especially since Saddam was not convicted for it.

It has nothing to do with why he was hanged.

[EFerrari]

12. Thing is, do you really know what he did and didn't do? I realized

I didn't a few years ago. I knew what our presstitutes printed.

Saddam was our monster. I don't know a way around that.

[MichiganVote]

31. Saddam was "A" monster. The US was not the only country that played ball with him

[EFerrari]

51. That's right. We just popped his cherry.

[MichiganVote]

82. Think so? Maybe we did and maybe we didn't. Who will ever know.

[EFerrari]

89. We know. We recruited him when he was a kid. It's not up for debate

Cr@p.

(Sorry, Redstone, I'm going away.)

[MichiganVote]

140. The guy hasn't been a kid in decades. He was a multi-national dictator.

He chose his life. He just didn't get to choose his death. How many of us do?

[EFerrari]

280. Last try. The CIA recruited this guy when he was in his early 20s.

He probably did very little without the approval of your government.

Including being executed.

[kentuck]

15. And how many people must now die because....?

another psychopath got his rocks off? Does it not make any difference? Should it not be any part of the equation? Screw the world so long as we brought justice to the dictator, Saddam? Or, perhaps, there will be peace tomorrow? The lion shall lay down by the lamb? Should we look no further than the tips of our noses to see the cost or the value in what has been done?

[CatWoman]

16. good post, Kentuck

[Beausoir]

46. You see the bigger picture. Thousands dead for a senseless vendetta.

Breaking News.....there are BAD people all around the world!

[Redstone]

104. Yes, there are. And nobody should make excuses for them, either.

Should they?

Redstone

[kentuck]

109. And if we invade another country of one of these "bad guys"...?

and kill 650,000 of them in the process, and then capture and kill their "evil leader", then justice is served?

[Redstone]

119. Where, specifically, did I say THAT? I'd be interested in knowing.

Redstone

[Beausoir]

127. Define "excuse" them. Does that mean we invade their country, kill lots of people

and hang their dictator?

Where does it end?

What about the North Koreans? How about Putin?

C'mon, Redstone, you KNOW that NOTHING has been solved by hanging Sadam Hussein.

[Redstone]

133. I never said anything WOULD "be solved." Did I? Did you read my post?

Redstone

[Beausoir]

167. Of course I read your post. Did you read mine?

I do not excuse Saddam Hussein and his atrocities.....I just don't think they were worth the lives of thousands of American kids. Or Iraqi kids.

This war has only made things worse.

Surely, we can agree on that.

[BoneDaddy]

18. Agreed

The enemy of my enemy is my friend does not apply here.

Saddam was a scumbag, mass murderer and just because he "became" the enemy of Bush, does not make him less evil.

Goodbye Saddam.

[L A Woman]

20. Thank you, Redstone

"Piece of fucking shit" is the nicest thing I can think of to say about Saddam Hussein. Just because Bush also thinks he is a piece of shit doesn't mean I agree with the tactics of Bush.

You don't have to like Saddam Hussein to despise GWB.

You can hate Saddam AND be against the war in Iraq.

This is really all I have to say to Mr. Hussein:

Buh bye.

[Redstone]

108. You're welcome. (And you're rational and write well. I like that.)

Redstone

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

23. I couldn't agree more.

The fact that Bush is a disaster on two legs and his war is the worst debacle in the history of this country does not mean Sadddam was really an OK guy who got a bad rap, because he wasn't.

[Monkeyman]

24. Brother Redstone we are on the same page most of the time

Saddam is not worth the cost of wounded and dead troops. Plus them not being taken care of. Saddam was a madman but it was not worth it Brother. Just this old vets opinion

[WhollyHeretic]

40. He didn't say it was

He was talking about the way people have been minimizing what Saddam did as a ruler. I'm against the war and the death penalty but I'm not going to shed a tear about Saddam.

[Monkeyman]

44. But this is the cost our kids

[originalpckelly]

47. The OP wasn't trying to justify the war in Iraq or killing Saddam...

but was pointing out that people were denying Saddam's crimes.

[Monkeyman]

84. So you think his death is worth 25,000 wounded 3000 dead troops

Saddam committed the crimes yes. But my point is it is not worth one death of a American Soldier, Marine or Navy serviceman or women. Saddam deserve to die I feel nothing on his death. But bottom line here is now more of our kids including my family are about to be hit harder because of a lie

[WhollyHeretic]

91. Did you read the damn OP?

Where does he justify the war? He was simply stating that people shouldn't minimize what Saddam did and try and paint him as some decent leader.

[Monkeyman]

126. I know but its not worth a thing

Saddam was a butt head anyone who defended that is wrong. But Bush has committed more crimes then him

[originalpckelly]

134. This wasn't about that...

we can be against the war without denying the crimes Saddam committed.

[bullwinkle428]

55. delete...replied to incorrect post

[tavalon]

53. You might want to go back and read his post

I went back after reading yours to reread his to see if he said that this was worth it. He didn't. He said Saddam was a bad man which he was. That's pretty much it. Whether Saddam was a bad man has nothing to do with whether we should have started this war. We shouldn't have and I doubt Redstone believes we should have.

[MichiganVote]

58. Saddam was not worth what? A war. Agreed. Death? Tell that to the Iraqi's

who suffered under his barbaric rule.

[Redstone]

129. I never said "it was worth it." If Ihad the choice to leave him in power or start this

stupid fucking war, well, sorry Iraqis, I'd have left him there.

We ARE on the same page here. Remember, I'm not debating whether the war was worth it to get rid of him (because it was not).

I'm just saying he was a fucking monster. Two different subjects entirely.

OK?

Redstone

[Beausoir]

28. And I get angry about the 3000 dead American kids who were sent into a senseless meat grinder just

to prop up the filthy maggot who squats in our WhiteHouse.

This war on terrorism had NOTHING to do with Iraq and you KNOW it.

Meanwhile, we are all at much greater risk, because of the insane war-mongering policies of W.

I have NO sympathy for Saddam Hussein, but, clearly, you must recognize the farce that W has perpetrated.

[originalpckelly]

34. Why not reply to the content of the OP?

It has nothing to do with what you responded in saying. We don't have to deny Saddam's crimes to oppose the war in Iraq.

This is what Redstone posted about.

[Beausoir]

43. Why not face reality? THe ONLY reason we are reading about this tonight is because of W.

Do YOU feel safer tonight?

Is your mission truly accomplished?

This has been a tragic waste of human life. You should be able to see that for yourself.

[Posteritatis]

59. But .. but .. that'd take effort!

I can't say I'm surprised at the number of people who're completely ignoring the OP to read what they want into it, but it certainly bugs me. It seems just about everyone's responding to what they think Redstone implied somehow, as opposed to, well, what he actually said - that it's possible to say "Hussein was truly horrible person who forced his country and several around it to wade in lakes of blood" without saying "I support the war in Iraq."

Guess a lot of people seem to think otherwise.

[Beausoir]

113. Yes, and it takes EFFORT to think through the fact that W led thousands of kids to their deaths

just to avenge some sick father-son fantasy.

No one here is saying that Saddam Hussein deserves sympathy. What we ARE saying is that he was not worth ONE single American soldier's life.

3000 dead kids....Saddam is dead. Will that bring those kids back?

[Posteritatis]

Show me where the OP suggested he was. I'll wait. (n/t)

[Beausoir]

121. You are arguing with yourself. I have no time for that.

You aren't making any sense.

[Posteritatis]

123. Alright then, fabricate whatever you want to respond to instead; it's a free country. (nt)

[MODemocrat]

97. I agree; and Sadam could have been brought down with one bullet

It should have never involved our entire army, and three thousand deaths of same. It's a shame when one
Dictator goes after another, and waits 20 years to do it. Nothing has been resolved as far as the quagmire that's running rampant after the billions our country has spent to rid another country of their Tyrant. It's simply not justified. We paid too much for that botched job of Bush's.

[windbreeze]

195. Personally, it woulda been better if *

had accepted Saddam's challenge to a duel, before starting a war...lot's cheaper, no lives lost except whichever of them was a bad shot...I could have handled that...
windbreeze

[libnnc]

29. We ought not have given the bastard the gas.

We ought not have shook the scumbag's hand.

We ought not have propped the fucker up for years.

We should get out of the puppet-dictator business. It always ends badly.

I agree with you, Redstone but respectfully add that we created this fucker.

[MichiganVote]

39. The entire world created this guy, Saddam was into whoever would serve his power interests

He overreached and got his hands slapped. Now he's dead. Doesn't always pay to play with the big boys with more influence, guns, whatever. Can people feel angry, sure. But Hussein was not some hapless young revolutionary with a peashooter. He was a very bad man.

[Dhalgren]

32. We are in Bizzarro World. The US had no right to try Saddam. The

Iraqi puppet government had no right to try Saddam - not as long as the occupying army still controls the country. If Saddam had been turned over to the International Courts and tried, or if his trial had waited until Iraq was truly in the control of Iraqis then many of the arguments about his trial would disappear. I don't think that anyone thinks that someone guilty of the horrific crimes that Saddam was accused of should "get off". But there is a reasonable desire for "justice". I have tried to follow Saddam's trial, but I could never get any kind of "take" on the quality or type of evidence that was presented at trial. So, I cannot say what, exactly, was proved at his trial. I know what he is accused of, I have not seen the evidence for it. If the trial had been handled better or in a different venue, I would have fewer problems with the verdict and sentence. Regardless of all that, the timing and logistics of all this have been awful...

[tavalon]

65. Oh yes, this was done in as underhanded a way as this whole damn war

It doesn't change the goodness or badness of Saddam, just the goodness or badness of the puppet regime and of this administration pulling its strings. We are very, very bad and have been since we walked into Iraq to topple OBL, er, Saddam.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

165. Let Me Ask This As Bluntly As Possible: Do You Believe For A Second That He Wasn't Guilty?

People keep using this trial as justification for how unfair his sentence is blah blah blah. I call horseshit on that. Yes, everyone deserves a fair trial etcetera etcetera. Having that said, even in the absence of one in this case, do you think for a second he wasn't guilty of enough atrocities during his rule to have not warranted the death sentence, in a country that permits death sentences? Would it really have taken the most pure and fair trial in the history of mankind for the facts to come out in order for you to make that determination? Doesn't the world have enough of those facts about him already?

The way I see it, those who think the flawed trial itself makes his sentence unfair are being quite disingenuous. This wasn't some guy accused of murdering his wife for christ's sake. It was a brutal dictator well documented to have slaughtered and tortured many. I can't take those here who keep wanting to insinuate that we simply don't know that and need a fair trial to make that assertion blahzay blahzay friggin blah.

Seriously. Trial or no trial, he committed more than enough atrocity to deserve the most severe punishment his justice system allows. And it just so happens that his justice system allows the death penalty. So it is only logical and easily assumed that would be his fate.

[sistersofmercy]

242. It doesn't matter

Our government under Reagan was complicit. We supplied the chems. If I hand you a gun and say go shoot that guy and you do, am I complicit? If I give you a gun and ou kill someone am I crimally negligent? Yes and that is precisely what our government did. Besides that, there are reports that the chems tested matched those supplied to the Iranians. It makes sense since they are the ones who held western reporters just across the border until the smoke cleared and that is how the film footage came about. Check the clearing time for the chems, it's fairly quick. It'll be interesting to see what the Iranians have to say in the not to distant future. Who's yanking our chain now and who did we have to get in bed with prior to the war via Chalabi, yea, that's right, the Iranians.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

263. Seriously, What On Earth Were You Just Yammering About? No Idea How It Relates To My Post.

You went off on like some sort of weird different direction there. Had nothing to do with the premise of my post. Did you reply to the wrong one or did you just want to go off on that tirade regardless of context?

[sistersofmercy]

281. Um, actually you are on a tirade not me

You were basiclly stating that he's guilty of something so why not just convict and kill him of this? Kind of archaic don't you think?

[Dhalgren]

310. If Saddam was not given a fair trial, then we are no better than he was.

This isn't about what kind of person Saddam was, it is about what kind of people WE are. A fair trial is not what is due a defendant, it is what the society OWES the defendant. The fair trial is for US - it always has been. If you can dismiss the concept of a "fair trial" so easily simply because of who is on trial, then that says much more about you than it does the one on trial. I do not care what the crimes are nor how guilty I assume the defendant to be, I must and will demand a fair and open trial or any result is unacceptable. Do I think Saddam was guilty? Probably so; the reported evidence is quite gruesome. But, this, in the end, has very little to do with Saddam Hussein and very much to do with the American People and who we are and what we have become....

[Old and In the Way]

261. I totally agree......it should have been conducted in a a venue suitable for this

case...we are talking about a head of state here. I know we are supposed to begin everything we say with the qualifier "Saddam was an evil man"....but I don't see him as any less evil as the people who supplied him with his tools of power. There were no complaints about his brutality when it served our purposes. I have no idea how many deaths Hussein is personally responsible for, but the record for perpetuity will be 148. So how does the scale balance for our country when we've got between 50,000 and 650,000 deaths on our ledger? This is a very scary precedent for the world. Not that a dictator was tried and paid the price, but that the trial was not done under international jurisdiction. It was primarily a political show trial for us, not the details, of course, only the end result mattered. When the USA wakes up tomorrow and the hangover settles in from all the back slapping, self-congratulatory celebration of this modern mass media version of a lynching, the world will think a little less of us; we'll still be stuck in the quagmire we created without real justification; and we will still be killing innocent Iraqi's...for what? At least Saddam could argue that his ruthless brand of justice was for the greater good of the Iraqi state...what will our excuse be?

I guess might makes right. We have Bush in command and 10,000 nukes in our arsenal. We may not have the moral high ground, but we sure as hell have the firepower to compensate...

[bluerum]

33. Did Saddam "pull the trigger"? Where are the hundreds of people

who helped him carry out his crimes? Why aren't they on trial? Where is their testimony? Are there additional trials in progress?

The Nuremberg trials did not try Hitler - they tried those who enabled Hitler although I am sure that Hitler would have been tried had he been available.

Not trying to justify Saddam's brutality but he is certainly not the only guilty party.

[kentuck]

38. delete

wrong post.

[MichiganVote]

50. They seem to be engaged in a civil war at present

Let's get real shall we. Who exactly is it that is going to deliver this fair and balanced justice you suggest? The Bush admin., throughly incompetent? The society of the Iraqi's, disintegrated and embattled? The Kurds, who have already had the good sense to move on?

This isn't Gunsmoke and there ain't no Perry Mason in the Middle East.

[bluerum]

73. Yes I know. It was a rhetorical question at best. If there were to be

a closer approximation justice, the suppliers of the gas would be implicated and sentenced as well as the Iraqi generals and military that carried out the deed.

As I see it, this one execution don't mean squat - except that it throws even more fuel on the civil war.

[MichiganVote]

85. I daresay it means more to those who were tortured by SH than you or I

[bluerum]

99. Possibly. For now. But this brings no one back, and does nothing

to heal wounds. It is simple revenge.

I don't see how more brutality helps heal the wounds of brutality. But I suppose that I can understand how some people may get satisfaction from seeing their torturer tortured or killed.

[MichiganVote]

115. Its their country. Not ours. We've already fucked them up by trying to enforce "our" values

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

169. Maybe Not The Only Guilty Party, But Still Guilty Nonetheless And Deserving Of His Fate. n/t

[4nic8em]

36. Me too Redstone,

That's exactly how I feel about the chimpster...

[Kajsa]

42. I do too, Redstone.

Saddam Hussein committed genocide against the Kurds, among countless
other atrocities against the Iranian people.

He was a monster- his two sons who were assassinated were monsters.
( killing members of the Iranian Olympic soccer team because they friggin
missed a shot?- What a homecoming!- GIMME A BREAK!!!!!)

Again, Redstone, I thank you for speaking for me as well.
You have backbone,guts and speak the truth.

[Kajsa]

206. Correction- Iraqi Olympic soccer team_

Not- Iranian.

Geez- I'm tired, more than I thought.

[stillcool]

48. show me the money...already

Where's the beef? He's one man...he's dead. But, what's the real deal? If you know it all...spill it. I went looking and here's what I found:
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/stillcool47

[dicknbush]

49. THe whole Sadam is a butcher thing is overblown....

Was he a bad guy probably. But remember he was our agent and we used him for his brutality when it suited our objectives. We gave him the capacity to commit his crimes both materially and politically. Rumslffeld should be next in line and we should dig up Regan and hang him for giving Sadam the resources to commit his "Crimes against Humanity". NAd by the way what greater crime against humaity then the bombing of Hanoi, or the destruction of the Indians or dropping an atomic weapon on civilian pop;ulations. The hypocricy is thick about all of this. Sadam was a sick man and so is Bush and so is his father and his mother and Rumsfeld and Rice and Wolfowitz and Perle etc etc etc..

[dicknbush]

76. We have all been brainwashed. Remember the "BABIES THROWN FORM INCUBATOR " story???

It was a lie. I believe that Sadam was a tyrant. I believe that Augusto Pinochet was a tyrant. I believe that Breshnevv was a tyrant, I believe that the COntras were tyrants, I believe that governments that we deal with today are tyranical but because it serves our interest we play ball with them. Sadam was just not clever enough to keep one step ahead of the criminal faction of the Bush family!

[MichiganVote]

78. "Was he a bad guy? Probably" What are you freakin' kidding me?

The guy was not "our" agent. He was a dictator and he did terrible things to his own frickin' people. He used the US for his brutality too. It was a dangerous and barbaric regime. So it cost him and it has cost us.

Who gives a shit that Saddam was sick. He was a monster and so were his two sons.

[originalpckelly]

79. The OP was not an attempt to excuse Bush or justify the war...

but a commentary on the fact that a number of our fellow DUers seem to have forgotten or not know that Saddam had committed crimes against humanity.

[dicknbush]

96. The Bush family are responsible for the Deaths of Millions of Muslims

Between Bush 41 ande the lesser they have initiated actions that have couased the deaths of probably more then a million Iraqis. In the eyes off the Radical Islamists and even the Iraqi peop[le it would be understandable if they came to the conclusion that the United states is out to murder innocent Iraqis jsut like Sadam. The Bush family are just as criminal as the Hussein family in my opinion.

[originalpckelly]

139. OK, but that's not the point of this post!

The problem is that some people were actually trying to BS and say Saddam hadn't committed crimes against humanity. That's all the OP was about.

[Redstone]

144. "He was a bad guy probably?" EXACTLY what I was talking about. Have you read a newspaper

in the last, say fifteen years?

Redstone

[sanskritwarrior]

54. Hi

my first post at DU. Looks like I picked an interesting night to sign up. Redstone, I agree with you completely. I am a vet (Army) recently returned from Iraq and what Saddam did to the people of Iraq is reprehensile and a hanging is almost too good for him. Granted we did fund Saddam but we did not order him to kill Kurds in Kurdistan nor did we ask him to butcher his would be assassins. I guess I might be the one progressive that is dancing a jig at a brutal monster's death.

[EST]

110. Welcome to DU!

I had almost given up on you but now we are so glad you're here.
Have you been a silent reader or did you see the forum and decide to jump right in?

When things get so fractured and frazzled, as they are right now, even here at DU there are misunderstandings and emotions run high, sometimes short circuiting good sense and empathy.

On the subject of gassing people, I am reminded of the British occupation of Iraq, early last century, when the British used wmd-poison gas-against the people they were occupying the countly of.

[sanskritwarrior]

118. I read

more than I write. I just have something to say tonight. You can support Saddams death and not be a fan of Chimp's war. You can be a progressive and favor the death penalty. I hate to paraphrase Star Wars but "only a sith deals in absolutes"..........

thanks for the welcome. I'll probably go to the lounge now to avoid the flamewars.....

[EST]

135. Heheh!

Probably not a bad idea.

Again, welcome to this extremely lively place.
A thick skin is often a highly useful item.

[kentuck]

60. Cognitive dissonance...

Now it fits..

[bullwinkle428]

67. Redstone, this execution had nothing to do with the gassing of the Kurds.

This was specifically about the killing of the civilian residents of Dujail, who he went after following a failed assassination attempt. I'm throughly disgusted that he was never brought to justice for what he did to the Kurds, but we all know that he never would have faced trial for that as it was perpetrated with weapons he got from the U.S....

[Redstone]

162. And that has, specifically, WHAT to do with what I said in the OP?

Redstone

[bullwinkle428]

211. It just has to do with the fact that he was never called to account for the

most brutal and widely-impacting of his crimes, of which you referred specifically in the original post. The Kurds are very upset, and rightly so, that for the countless thousands of those slaughtered by Saddam, that they never actually got their day in court.

[Redstone]

231. It would have been nice for them to have had their day in court, I agree.

I can indeed see why they feel they were denied their say in the course of justice.

They've suffered as much as, say, the Jews and Armenians have, indeed. And it's a damn shame that the world doesn't recognize that.

On this point, we agree entirely.

Redstone

[bullwinkle428]

240. Thanks...I just wanted to get the point across that I believe that none of his

actions should be trivialized one bit, but unfortunately, this sham trial has trivialized countless numbers of his victims (by ignoring all the other crimes) and I'm upset that he'll never have to face them in any court of justice. A good analogy would be if Hitler was captured, put on trial, and found guilty and executed for having put to death a small number of Allied troops while his genocide against everyone he sent to the gas chambers was ignored.

[WhollyHeretic]

69. Jeez, people have some serious reading comprehension problems here

Redstone did not defend Bushes policies or claim any support for the war. He wrote out a pretty clear and simple OP but most of the people responding don't seem to have understood a word of it.

I am against the war and also believe Saddam was a horrific and violent ruler. Those are not opposing ideas.

[sanskritwarrior]

88. Agree 100%

have no problem with Afghanistan as I was there back in 2002. Iraq on the other hand might not be the best use of American military forces.

[MichiganVote]

95. Yeah and there's too damn much of that going on these days on this board

[Usrename]

74. As it turns out though, he did not have any involvment with terrorists.

No one is anxious to interrogate him.

[applegrove]

81. Thank you for saying it. He was a monster. And deserved a trial.

[LittleClarkie]

87. I can see the monstrosity that was Saddam and also realize

that we have left other monsters in power when they were our allies. Saddam was our ally at one point, to our shame. Saying Saddam is a monster and not wanting to defend him is not to say that we were justified in invading his country and taking him out of power. If this country was in the business of opposing madmen, I reckon we missed a few.

Hence, I can simulaneously see Saddamn as a monster, and still think the Iraq War was wrong, something many Republicans seem unable to fathom.

But yeah, I get where you're coming from.

[The_Casual_Observer]

90. Did they hang Stalin?

That's news to me.

[Redstone]

163. Care to tell me what, exactly, that comment has to do with my post?

Redstone

[originalpckelly]

196. Well, goats like cheese. And don't you ask how that's related to your OP either.

[The_Casual_Observer]

209. You brought him up, and did it in the context of justifying hanging

Saddam.

[originalpckelly]

212. NO HE DIDN'T! Where did you see that?

I sure remember reading this:

"PS: This doesn't have anything to do with pros or cons of the death penalty. I'm talking about people saying "well, how do we know he was all that bad?" We know. The whole world knows."

That means this isn't about the pros or cons of the death penalty, just that people were excusing or mitigating Saddam's crimes.

[originalpckelly]

194. While we're throwing out non-sequiturs: "Is the moon made of cheese?"

Please, if you have time to post, please post about the OP, not some totally unrelated thing.

[Codeine]

216. Should they have hanged Stalin?

They certainly should have, but the opportunity was lacking.

[The_Casual_Observer]

219. They got him to pose with FDR & Churchill instead.

All Saddam got was a lousy out of focus picture with rumsfeld & a rope.

[Trajan]

94. DIVIDE the question ...

> Were Saddam Hussein And his sons vicious brutal animals ?

Yes

> Should Saddam Hussein have been executed ?

IF you believe that Capital Punishment is a valid response of a modern society ...
... You might answer yes or no

IF you believe that Capital Punishment is NOT a valid response of a modern society ...
... You will DEFINITELY answer no ...

Saddam was a classic Stalinist Despot .... harsh rule through the implementation
of a police state along the lines of a monarchical society ...

He is no progressive liberal ....

My objection is that WE, as a modern society, should NOT condone the killing of
criminals, because of the moral questions such acts engender ...

Did he deserve SOME sort of punishment ? : I would say YES

Did he deserve to get hung ? : He may have deserved it, but WE shouldnt have done it ....

[MichiganVote]

101. This modern society endorses capital punishment in a number of states

[sanskritwarrior]

106. Is that a problem?

My cousin was murdered 14 years ago and the man was caught tried and executed. I was pleased. Of course it will never ease my family's pain over David's death, nor will it bring him back, but his killer got his just dues.

PS. Yes I am from Texas. Yes I am liberal on almost every issue save the DP and the 2nd amendment.

[MichiganVote]

143. So long as this country permits states / citizens to determine this choice

its not a problem for me. I believe in the rights of people to vote CP through or not.

Now if you re-read my post to the original guy you'll see that I was saying as much.

[sanskritwarrior]

152. My bad

still figuring out how this place works.

[MichiganVote]

178. No problem.

[Trajan]

112. That decision is immoral ....

We all make choices in life : THOSE states that apply such a punishment is an immoral state ...

EVERY person that is killed accordingly, no matter WHAT the crime, is being killed by an immoral act ...

State laws once kept blacks in chains .....

[MichiganVote]

198. Well you know what? That's democracy.

[Trajan]

236. 'Democracy' permitted Slavery ....

Even a good idea can go wrong ... eh ?

Amazingly ... The Bill of Rights was written to protect the individual FROM mob rule, by placing barriers between 'Democracy' and basic human rights, which are considered involiable from diminishment through legislation at the local, state and federal level, as embodied in the first ten amendments of the USC ...

There is one amendment specifically that protects citizens from 'Cruel and Unusual Punishments' .... one can easily argue that capital punishment constitutes 'cruel' punishment ... (but NOT unusual, because in this world, cruel isnt so unusual ... )

You are caught up in the usual .... You have many friends in this world ....

[MichiganVote]

239. Ok. But this OP was not about the death penalty...for anyone.

[Redstone]

174. For the last fucking time, I did NOT say whether he should or should not have been executed!

Jesus, could you just READ my post?

Redstone

[Trajan]

274. Geeez ......

Maybe Im not ONLY answering your post, but speaking to the WHOLE problem, or a greater problem than you apparently wish to hear about ....

Frankly .. I see VERY few 'pro' saddam posts here, and so it isnt such a problem after all, and perhaps your just blowing off a load of steam ...

And maybe, just maybe, this will be my curtain call ....

*bows*, and exits quietly ....

[ConsAreLiars]

103. Seek help. There are anger management courses in most communities.

If you get that worked up from reading views that differ from your own, you really should see that as a treatable condition, and not believe that yelling at others will solve anything.

[Redstone]

182. Thank you SO much for the free psychoanalysis. Again. You're so generous that

I'll be forever in debt to you.

Are you sure you don't want me to pay you for your stunning insights?

Redstone

[Bobbie Jo]

105. Yes! Saddam was a horrible man, no doubt about it....but

Please remind me how this horrible, evil man posed a threat to the United States? Isn't that why we're there?

Should we make a list of every evil dictator in the world and take them out one by one? Yeah...we need more soldiers for sure.

[CatWoman]

111. excellent fucking point!!!

[WhollyHeretic]

117. No it really isn't

The OP is simply saying that people shouldn't rewrite history and paint Saddam as some swell guy.

It did not try and justify the war or even the death penalty.

[Bobbie Jo]

125. Perhaps....but my point,

What business is it of ours to orchestrate the official offing of him. Hell...we can't even deal with our own evil men.

[WhollyHeretic]

128. OK. That point is fine but it has nothing to do with the OP

Why not start a thread about it? Don't try to pin shit on the OP that he in no way said.

[Bobbie Jo]

142. Thanks for approving my post...

and the helpful suggestion....

Should I run my thoughts past you beforehand? Hey, I'm just a newb.. but if this is the procedure I'll adjust.

[WhollyHeretic]

148. One thing you need to do is read the damn OP before responding

Nice avoidance of the issue though. Could you please tell me where the OP promoted any of what you were insinuating in your response?

[Bobbie Jo]

186. I read the damn post...

Saddam = Bad...got it. Bush = Bad...got that too.

I just happen to believe what Bush has done is far worse. At least with Saddam you knew what you were dealing with, Bush, on the other hand....I know start my own post. Got it.

[CatWoman]

149. I'm sorry

I'm so busy rewriting Gerald Ford's history and that of Watergate.

Saddam will just have to wait a few ticks.

[sanskritwarrior]

116. I thought it was

Oil.......or revenge for Daddy.......or for PNAC........or for Middle eastern Freedom.......or for human rights for all Arabs.........Personally I think only Bush knows why we are there.

How do you display that sarcasm button???

[dicknbush]

120. If the execution of the law is based on a lie then it is a fraud!

The entire enterprise of the Untied States Illegally invading a soverign nation under false pretense makes all further actions invalid. It is like the Vischey Government in France. It was a lie it was a fruad and it had no legal authority. That is who we are in Iraq we have set up the Vischey Government to do our bidding! AND THAT IS THE FUCKING TRUTH! The Murder of Sadam Hussein was a criminal act by the government of the Untied States PERIOD!

[MichiganVote]

147. You might want to inform the Iraqi's of that. They executed him, not the US.

[CatWoman]

223. you really are naive, aren't you?

[MichiganVote]

233. Am I? Good. Now if you tell me anything more about myself, you know

I'll believe everything you say and you'll feel all happy and vindicated and want to be my friend and I won't give a shit.

Or, you can dialogue with courtesy for free and I'll be happy and want to be your friend.

Or you can just walk away.....up to you

[MichiganVote]

145. The guy was executed for crimes in Iraq, not the US.

[Neecy]

107. What posts are you referring to?

I don't believe I've read a single post all evening that attempts to trivialize Saddam's crimes. Of course, I haven't read every post on the subject, but if as many existed as your angry, profanity-ridden rant would seem to indicate surely I would have stumbled across one or two.

Some people are against the death penalty. Some believe it was a sham trial. Some are angry at the cost to our country and to Iraqi civilians in order to capture and kill one man. Some believe we aided and abetted his crimes. But who here has claimed he's entirely innocent, or not a really bad guy? Enough to make you 'damn angry'? Please.

[babylonsister]

124. Try this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

[Neecy]

131. hmmmm

I don't see anything in that thread that claims Saddam was innocent of the crimes he was executed for. In fact, the OP seemed to make it fairly clear that he was indeed guilty.

Comparing the Saddam/Bush death tolls may seem trivial to some - I have no opinion on that. But I don't see anyone claiming innocence or saying that he was a swell guy.

[originalpckelly]

156. Here is a mitigation:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

[MichiganVote]

132. Splitting hairs on who makes claims of innocence or guilt doesn't change

the fact that there seem to be a number of posts this evening that express some form of pity for SH mixed with anger at the * admin. I don't find anything wrong with the OP's assertion. The OP did not endorse the death penalty.

[WhollyHeretic]

136. It really seems like a lot of people in this thread are replying to some

double-secret invisible OP that only they can see.

[MichiganVote]

153. God the whole board is riddled with divisive thinking the last few days.

Does this board even have moderators anymore????

[Neecy]

160. Excuse me?

If you want to see divisiveness, read the profane group lecture meted out in the OP. You'd think this board was riddled with Saddam loyalists in love with the guy the way we were just told off - and from what I've read tonight, that's just not true.

Your call for a moderator on this thread is really amusing. Are you the OP's mother or something?

[MichiganVote]

171. No sometimes I'm just a fucking bitch who likes to swear her

damn head off to piss off the "values" people who want to tell me not to hurt them by swearing my fucking head off.

How's that? Clear enough?

I mean I really, really want you to understand that you weren't a part of my conversation but I sure as hell don't want to leave your purity behind if I can help it.

[Neecy]

137. I'm reading the OP again...

So I don't split hairs...he claims that there's apparently a rash of posts tonight claiming that Saddam 'wasn't that bad'. All I'm saying is that I've yet to see anything even CLOSE to that sentiment, and I was asking for some examples.

[MichiganVote]

158. Do I look like your wet nurse? Find them yourself!

Some of us do manage to look before we argue against an OP. in place of arguing and then protesting nobody has done the homework for you.

[Neecy]

168. As I've already said...

I've read quite a few of the threads tonight, and I've yet to see a spate of "Saddam's not a bad guy" posts, certainly not enough to justify the frenzy of the OP.

And YOU bemoan the divisive posts here? Nice.

[Left Is Write]

176. Here's one.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

[Lars39]

180. That one just doubts that it was the real Saddam that was hanged.

[Left Is Write]

184. Did you see the title? "He was not a monster."

Or "he wasn't a monster, more like a buffoon."

[Lars39]

185. The first sentence is key.

[Left Is Write]

188. Yes, it is. To the poster's contradiction of my statement that SH was a monster.

[MichiganVote]

181. What frenzy? People write posts like the OP all the time.

[Neecy]

191. I was referring to this bit of drama ---

"Enough is too fucking much already." So, I'm assuming that the joint is swarming with pro-Saddam posts based on this overwrought hand-wringing. And gee, this blizzard of Saddam love notes really doesn't seem to exist.

[MichiganVote]

205. If that is the OP's opinion, what the heck do you care?

You're going to be a busy bee if you plan to analyze everyone's drama on this board. But good luck, you'll need it.

[Neecy]

213. I really don't care...

But it gives the impression that we, as a community, are somehow overlooking Saddam's crimes or claiming that he's 'not a really bad guy' to such an extent that the OP felt the need to take us to task. And it's a false impression. It's a smear on the vast majority of users here. Calling him on it seems to have offended you - and I don't care about that, either.

[MichiganVote]

235. So you're going to stand on principle on a message board?

So goes your opinion. I'm not offended by the OP at all because I think most of what is written on this string has nothing to do with SH or George Bush.

[Politicub]

141. Saddam Hussein became a symbol

that was more significant than the man himself, but as a ruler he was evil. Perhaps I need to emphasive that point more for you by typing EVIL in all caps.

But I still don't support the death penalty. In Saddam's case, dead men tell no tales, and I'm sure there were many more tales he could have told in future trials. But we'll never know. There was no justice today -- only revenge. And revenge is good enough for some people, but I believe that justice goes beyond merely executing someone.

[MichiganVote]

159. The OP did not contest the death penalty in his post. Are you awake?

It was the choice of the Iraqi's that SH die. Period. Can't tell people they can have their own country and gee we're sorry our gov't fucked up by invading you and then deny them the right to their legal forms---even if we disagree with them.

[devilgrrl]

150. Uh Dude. Everyone knew Saddam was sick fuck from the moment go...

ALMOST THIRTY YEARS AGO!!!!!!!

Who are these trivial people that you speak of? Because they aren't in my house!

That's a pretty broad brush that you've got there.

[originalpckelly]

154. Here's one:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

[devilgrrl]

164. Fine.

I didn't post it. Though, I must admit, that is very trivial.

Sorry, folks. Had a major blowout with the family - this was a very stressful and depressing holiday and I'm a little down. International events had nothing to do with it.

[originalpckelly]

199. Hope you feel better devilgrrl...

[razors edge]

155. Do you feel the same way about Pres A. Johnson?

http://www.cato.org/research/articles/swanson-020706.ht...

That night, a mob celebrated the execution by attacking Surratt's house to strip it of souvenirs, until the police drove them off. Today, questions linger about the trial and execution of Lincoln's assassins. Was the military tribunal constitutional, or should they have been tried by a civil court? Why did Johnson refuse to spare Surratt even after the tribunal recommended it? Was she part of Booth's assassination plot, or was she innocent?


Should Johnson have been tried and executed for responding to an assassination of State Officials?

As the leader of Iraq did Saddam not have the duty to respond to the domestic attempt at overthrow in a way he saw required?

I don't see the United States, who controlled the entire process, as having any standing in the case.

That said, he should have been tried for his other crimes in the Hague, but that would embarrass too many important people's interests.

[Redstone]

204. DING DING DING! You win the prize for the single most bizarre response that has exactly

nothing to do with my original post!

Redstone

[razors edge]

215. Damn, after 30 minutes of reading the responses here

I got lost, oops, I'll have to start over.

[razors edge]

260. From your OP...

"For example, trying to paint his genocidal gassing of entire Kurdish towns, his brutal massacres of the Marsh Arabs (and so much more) by saying he was "fighting back against his would-be assassins"

From my reply...

"Should Johnson have been tried and executed for responding to an assassination of State Officials?

As the leader of Iraq did Saddam not have the duty to respond to the domestic attempt at overthrow in a way he saw required?"

If this has "exactly nothing" to do with your OP then what does?

I think you win the prize for the most bizarre reply my friend.

Let me make the comparison a little more simple. We have also done what Saddam did, as have many other governments thought history have done when it comes to "fighting back against his would-be assassins".

I don't trivialize any murderer's acts, but unless I missed something, Saddam responded to the Kurd's actions against him. I have not read anywhere that he came into power looking to persecute them and then initiating that agenda as a prime objective. Maybe Hitler set the bar a little high for me to consider someone else genocidal.

Sorry if others make you damned angry, welcome to the earth.

[Redstone]

272. Would you mind, please, telling me what planet you live on?

"As the leader of Iraq did Saddam not have the duty to respond to the domestic attempt at overthrow in a way he saw required?"

As the leader of Germany, did Hitler not have the duty to "respond to the threat of the Jews the way he saw required" by killing them all?

As the leader of Soviet Russia, did Stalin not have the duty to "respond to the threat of the Kulaks the way he saw required" by sending them all off to Gulags in Siberia?

As the leader of the USA, does bush not have the duty to be able to "respond to the threat of terrorism the way he saw required" and declare ANYONE to be an "enemy combatant" and send them off to Gitmo forever?

Some logic you got there. I'm damn glad that you're not in charge.

Redstone

[razors edge]

286. Never herd of a

a jewish threat to Hitler, you seem to imply there was one. please supply a link to make sense of that connection. Hitler had a hard on for them that didn't require any threat to his overthrow, at least not one I'm aware of.


lets keep it simple for now, focus on that one and get back to me.

[Redstone]

347. I said he THOUGHT they were a threat. Nice try at twisting my words, but no cigar.

You're gonna have to do better than that. It's weak and transparent.

Redstone

[Old and In the Way]

273. Very important point!

"As the leader of Iraq did Saddam not have the duty to respond to the domestic attempt at overthrow in a way he saw required?"

If Saddam was such a "monster", why didn't the Iraqi's rise up and overthrow him? Hmmmmm. Not that they didn't have enough weapons, I think every family has an AK-47 there. Not that they aren't willing to fight and die...we seen enough of the proof to know that's not the case. Could it be that as bad as he was, they could envision worse? A society ruled by religious fundies or tribal warlords...like we are seeing now? Maybe they actually liked their secular, progressive (by ME standards)society before GS1? I don't pretend to know a lot of about what Saddam did or didn't do in his 30 years of rule, but I know that this trial was a complete travesty of justice and should have been held at the Hague where a proper airing of all of the relevant facts would be presented. But, of course, that would have been a major problem for this administration as well as previous ones who had armed and supported his policies when it suited them.

[razors edge]

287. We justify it by declaring

the killing is to ensure domestic tranquility. sounds better than shooting the Indians for the hell of it. I have a hard time believing that 400,000 Kurds were killed over a fifteen year period and they never fought back once, taking some considerable toll on Iraqi army personel sent to kill them. Custer comes to mind.

No military slaughter is defensible, but attempts to make a civil war into one sided genocide don't hold water.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

157. Hear Fuckin Hear Redstone! You Are 100% Spot On!!!!!!!

He was an evil piece of shit of which the world is now a bit better off no longer having within it.

On a lighter note, now that news has come of his demise, I can't help but thinking about him and Satan ala South Park The Movie, ya know?

Good riddance, Saddam.

[unsavedtrash]

172. right on!

right the fuck on!

[DeepModem Mom]

173. K&R. Many here seem to want to excuse all evil except our own. This country...

does not hold a franchise on evil, and one despot never excuses another. We are on the front line when our own rights are threatened -- but we should put blinders on when it comes to the execution of innocent civilians, with no legal hearing whatsoever, by another country? I post articles fairly regularly about human rights violations in other countries, usually to little response.

[Redstone]

234. That endorsement, coming from you, means a lot.

Redstone

[DeepModem Mom]

342. And thank you for your heartfelt post! nt

[MichiganVote]

244. So true, so true.....

[John Q. Citizen]

175. When Saddam and bush share cells we can say justice has been done.

There will still be a lot of dead people though.


When Saddam sprayed the kurds with helecopters we gave him, outfitted with dispersal devices, it was a true crime against humanity.

I oppose the death penalty, even for big monsters.

[ScreamingMeemie]

179. Where. Is. Osama?

[MichiganVote]

192. And that is the question...and the answer....people in the US really need

[kentuck]

189. There seems to be some confusion about what Redstone said in his post...

Perhaps he can clarify just what he thinks is so "fucking" wrong with a little more specificity??

[MichiganVote]

193. I haven't had any problem understanding this post.

[kentuck]

200. Well, perhaps you can explain it??

with more specificity?

[MichiganVote]

230. Well here's what you do. You read it, ponder it, say something like,

"boy that guy is really smart" or "boy that guy is really full of it" or maybe, just maybe, you politely ask the OP if he's just blowing off steam or to expand on his thoughts.

[CatWoman]

201. well, speaking for myself

I see too much parroting of the party line on this thread.

NOTHING, I mean NOTHING that Saddam did justifies our presense in Iraq, our hijacking this trial, and our sending more men to needless deaths.

NOTHING.

Saddam could have been taken down in other ways.

This could have been done "within".

It is NOT the U.S.'s responsiblity to invade countries and unseat dictators (OF CHOICE).

This trial should have been handled by professionals in the international community.

I can't and never will believe what our govt. is telling us about this.

And anyone who does is a goddamn fool.

[originalpckelly]

207. You are right, but the thing is that people on DU have actually...

tried to dismiss his crimes! That's what Redstone posted about.

AGAIN, this post was NOT about whether invading Iraq was right, but whether Saddam was a bad guy. You can still think he did bad things, not deny his crimes, and be against this war.

[Old and In the Way]

279. A $.50 bullet could have saved us 3000 American lives

$500BB or so from our Treasury, 40,000 severe casualties, and 500,000 Iraqi lives as well as their infrastructure. But a political assassination would have been morally wrong.

So why didn't the Iraqi people take this "monster" out in a hail of bullets? Sure would like an answer to that question.

[Phrogman]

197. If he was so bad than the Iraqi people should of tossed him...

Come on, this is all about the oil anyway, wake up everybody, you think the government gives a shit about a bunch of poor Arabs on the other side of the world?

This is bad Kharma to internationally publicize a hanging like this, with so many questions over the validity of the authority, this close to the New Year.

I don't think the rest of the world is as pleased as the American public over this big show.

Happy 2007.

[Redstone]

246. "Should have," not "should of." Just so you know.

Redstone

[info being]

304. This tells me all I need to know about your character

[Phrogman]

386. Well the "red X" is for "ignore member", and you just made the list

Just so you know.

[Redstone]

389. Then you won't be reading this, will you?

Redstone

[originalpckelly]

202. Redstone, why do you hate America?

[Redstone]

237. For its freedoms, of course.

Redstone

[Rex]

208. Same here.

nt

[julialnyc]

210. We don't live in the era of justice... we live in the era of influence

and not living by what most International law deems "Just" makes us as barbaric as those enemies we deem so brutal.

[MichiganVote]

241. In the United States justice is one thing, in Iraq its something else.

[Psephos]

257. No offense intended, but just when was the era of justice?

My readings of history don't offer up obvious candidates.

Peace.

[G Hawes]

217. Hear, hear.

[Jack Rabbit]

226. !!

[sistersofmercy]

227. Well just in case you didn't know

there are reports that the Iranians did it and that test were done, the chemicals our government supplied to the Iranians which were different than the ones supplied to the Iraqis were confirmed. Just speculation of course but hey why the rush to execute him. And why the big search for papers at the beginning of the war.
Did you know how the film footage of the village was procured? The Iranians held western reporters just across the border until the smoke cleared. Our government supplied intelligence and chemicals to both sides, they are complicit. No other way to look at it. Wag the dog.

[Redstone]

249. Blah, blah, blah, Saddam Hussein COULD HAVE been a nice guy, yacketa, yacketa, the

kind of guy you'd want for your neighbor, he was just misunderstood...THIS is why I made the original post.

Redstone

[sistersofmercy]

262. I never said he was a nice guy, typically nice guys don't run governments

But was he guilty as charged? no I don't think he was. Was he guilty of other things, I'm sure he was. So blah,blah, blah...back at you.

[Telly Savalas]

228. Shouldn't this thread be moved

to the Putting Words in Redstone's Mouth forum?

[rockymountaindem]

238. Yes

The replies to this thread are disgraceful.

Put me down as someone who doesn't feel one bit sorry for Saddam. He lived like a king for decades by exploiting the common people and killing a whole bunch of them while doing it. I hope he finds a nice warm spot next to Nicolas II.

[Redstone]

243. Well, that's the first time I've laughed tonight (except for when I was watchng the

kitten and the puppy playing).

You do know how to get right to the heart of the matter, don't you?

And it's well appreciated. Well-appreciated, indeed.

Redstone

[earlybelle]

248. I get so angry when people try to justify the loss of 3,000 US soldiers and 650,000 Iraqis

with the hanging of Saddam. Especially with the results coming from a Kangaroo court and the dancing in the streets of America by comfortable ex-pats from Iraq who have been living in comfort here like Chalabi and helping to engineer the ruse of the invasion of Iraq. I would rather that they stay the home and fight for their own freedom!!

[Redstone]

255. And I "tried to justify" all that exactly HOW? And where, in my post?

I'll be waiting for your reply with specific quotations.

I believe I asked you for specifics earlier, but didn't see any.

How about this time? Going to answer, are you?

Redstone

[renate]

294. FOX would probably try to justify it that way. But.

People here know there's a difference between justifying those losses and merely stating their opinion about whether or not Saddam Hussein should have been put to death.

Not a single post I've seen tonight was about Hussein's death justifying the war, whether the person is glad he was put to death or not. In fact, I don't think I've seen a single pro-war post in all my time on DU.

[enigmatic]

250. Redstone

I pretty much agree w/ you on this. I hate the death the death penalty, and I hated to see Saddam executed, but I also know Saddam was NOT a nice guy.

GD has become a very, very weird place since the election. I really thought there would be at least a break on the non-stop anger but if anything it's gotten worse. I can't figure it out.

[MichiganVote]

252. Ok, I think after reading the OP and the posts that followed I've

narrowed it down to a few truths.

First, Redstone I freely admitted to being a bitch on one response but was considered naieve on another for what I can't rememeber, but it might have something to do with the Ford bashing of the last several days for pardoning a president who was overwhelmingly elected in our country and who at most, at most, would have been indicted in conspiracy charges involving a two-bit burglary of a political office.

as compared to....

the rape, murder and torture of a dictator's own citizens over decades aided and supported by the same international cartel or community that subjects on this board want to (A. take over Iraq and quell the violence (B. find and place on trial all of the other bad boys in Iraq (C. Free all the people in Quantanomo and other black sites but hang American soldiers who are given a fair military trial for their crimes but do not want SH hanged by his people.

Ok, I think I got it.

[madfloridian]

253. Well, then I fear you will be angry with me.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/...

Sorry, but we have done outrageous things.

[MichiganVote]

256. So if the despot/dictator is allowed to live that mitigates our wrongs?

[madfloridian]

258. He was our dictator, we empowered him.

Sounds like you are falling for the media spin.

There are bad guys all over the world. Guess we need to get our guns and kill them all.

[MichiganVote]

264. Hey look, I don't need anybody else telling me I'm falling for anything

Who died and made you the thought God? I can and do think for myself and for your information I don't give a rat's ass whether SH was our dictator, the dictator of Rome or your next door neighbor. He was evil and bad for his people. He proved the verse, you will reap what you sow.

If I'm falling for the "media spin" then you may just as easily be falling for the 'pity the perpetrators' philosophy which has been so effective in keeping democrats in office. Just ask George Bush.

[madfloridian]

266. Well, I guess you did not like what I said.

.

[MichiganVote]

267. Well I guess your remarks are worth just about the paper they are printed on

[madfloridian]

269. Wow.

.

[razors edge]

288. Only if they have pissed off the

people who make those decisions, if the despots kill the undesirables all is well and the foreign aid will flow most generously. Carry on citizens, pay no attention to the man behind the slaughter.

[Nikki Stone1]

265. Because LA Woman's thread was locked, I'll answer here

I don't think Duers are supporting Saddam Hussein or even trivialize what he has done. Duers are just angry that George W. AWOL gets to look like a hero when he clearly isn't. FAUX news gets to celebrate as do lots of neocon types, even as we have more and more Americans dying in Iraq. It's also because Saddam was just another brutal dictator supported by the US (to fight Iran, who was deemed worse at the time) and he was allowed to ravage his own people while the US turned a blind eye. It's more anger at the hypocrisy of the Bushes (father and son) and their henchmen in regard to Saddam Hussein. Quite frankly, no angel got its wings when Saddam was hanged: the guy was a first rate slaughterer and power hungy asshole. The problem is that the current administration (and its tentacles over the last 30 + years if you count Cheney, Rumsfeld and other Nixon/Ford/Reagan alumni who keep showing up like bad pennies) is no stranger to slaughter, death, and a creeping oppression of its own people.

Edited to add: My thread was also locked.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

[uppityperson]

268. Saddam was a nasty thug. Missed most of what you are refferring to

Been not online because I didn't want to read bs, Saddam was a nasty criminal. That is a fact.

[QC]

270. I guess you don't care about the polar bears drowning.

How can you be so upset about this yet say nothing about the bears? Why do you hold the environment in such contempt?

[Redstone]

278. I guess that's just kind of the way I am. Can't care about more than one thing.

Thanks, QC.

Redstone

[razors edge]

290. what exactly would that one thing be?

surely not the mindset of strangers on a public forum.

[Bluebear]

276. "Enough is too fucking much already." Oh you're right about that. nt

[Raine]

277. Agreed nt

[stranger81]

282. Thanks, Redstone, for articulating that so precisely and persuasively

It's a point I sometimes lose sight of myself in the midst of all this madness, but one that I think we all need to be reminded of from time to time (if not more often).

[Roxy66]

285. I'm glad he's gone....shows reminding me of how horrific he was.

[sofa king]

289. Ever heard of Monsignor Josef Tiso?

Probably not. Tiso was the President of the Slovak Republic while it was a puppet state of the Third Reich during World War II. He presided over countless crimes, including the deportation of Slovakian Jews.

When the war ended in Europe, Tiso was sentenced to death by the Czechoslovakian National Court and executed in 1947.

Today, we don't remember Josef Tiso very well because Czechoslovakia fell under the influence of yet another more powerful country led by a far more notorious criminal: Josef Stalin.

So now I ask you: Do you applaud Josef Stalin for having Josef Tiso executed? Or was it the Czechoslovakian people who had Tiso executed? Does Tiso's death do anything to burnish the reputation of Stalin, or of the Soviet Union?

The answer to all three of those questions is, fuck, no!

[malaise]

292. That was genocide by proxy

All his weapons came from the US and Europe. Does that sicken you?

[onenote]

296. well said

[Prophet 451]

297. Yes, he was

Yes, Saddam Hussein was a monster. Yes, I'd even say he deserved to hang (I am a supporter of the death penalty under certain circumstances). However, he also deserved a fair trial first. If we are going to take on the terrible necessity of ending someone's life, the very least that we have an obligation toward is a fair trial. Yes, a fair trial would undoubtedly have convicted him anyway, that's not the point. The point of a trial is not simply to apportion blame but to establish the truth (in theory, anyway).

[Major Hogwash]

299. If Saddam was a monster - the US was the one that created him.

Hussein came to power because of help from the CIA.

So, to blame him for using that power, is just wrong.
The US was the one that armed Hussein, after all.

Hussein was just a puppet ruler for a long time. But, he was our puppet ruler, so we liked him.
We even helped him after he came to power to consolidate his power in Iraq.

Reagan and Bush senior both sold arms to Hussein.

But Bush junior and his PNAC advisors wanted Iraq's oil.
So, they invaded Iraq.

In the Arab world, setting up one's friend to stab him in the back later is not just considered wrong, it is the worst thing one can do to their friend.

They shouldn't have executed Hussein, they should have kept him locked up and let him die an old man.

[redherring]

300. Guess what, America is responsible for many of those atrocities

You know, when Saddam was mass murdering Iranians in droves, Americans like you kept your mouth shut, because well, Iran was the bad one. He was already killing Shiites and Kurds back then. Why didn't America do anything about Saddam's attrocities back then? Everybody knows that America was funding Iraq in the Iraq-Iran war. So I personally think that American leaders who decided to fund Iraq need to be hanged as well.

[Roland99]

301. How do we know it was Kurds? The US originally pushed the "fact" it was Iranians killed.

and note who visited Saddam not once, but twice after the incident:

[Hubert Flottz]

302. All murdering dictators should end up at the end of a rope.

ALL of them!

[progressivebydesign]

333. Like Libya's Ghdafi, who is now a friend of the US? n/t

[info being]

303. Bush vs. Saddam is nothing more than a gigantic mafia war

Its hard to take a position on what's "right" between criminals.

[mogster]

305. Another cheer for the executioner

*yawn*

[Dutch]

314. Another knee-jerk poster who didn't read the OP.

*yawn*

[rman]

308. I probaby would get angry to, if i'd see any of those posts

Care to point them out?

[Redstone]

346. Just scroll through this thread; I seem to attracted a bunch of them.

Redstone

[rman]

377. I think you and i have a different concept

about what "trivialize" means.

[Dutch]

315. Well said. n/t

[spanone]

316. Yet we do have an insight into what Saddam was dealing with inside Iraq, now don't we.

Killing is killing is killing is killing.

Without a plan to run the country, we've taken up where he left off.

[Crabby Appleton]

317. I agree with Redstone

[Qanisqineq]

319. exactly

and from reading a number of the responses to your OP, I don't think people really get it. Saying he was a sick fuck doesn't mean I am for the war (which I never have been). It also doesn't mean I thought he should have received the death penalty (I'm not for the death penalty). It doesn't mean anything except that Saddam did some evil shit. Rape, gassing, killing, torturing -- it's all evil. And saying that the US gave Saddam the gas doesn't mean a damn thing. HE DIDN'T HAVE TO USE IT. Only a sick fuck uses it.

Maybe he didn't do some of the stuff he was accused of, but he did enough that I can say he was an evil shit who deserved to sit in a jail cell for the rest of his life.

[Redstone]

345. I don't believe we've met, but I like the way you think. Thanks for pitching in.

Redstone

[Qanisqineq]

360. just had to add my 2 cents

I would've added more but it was around 2 am here in Korea and I was too tired to think straight or make sense. I don't post much but I do read a lot and I always remember your name because I agree with you a lot.

[liberalhistorian]

322. Thank you, Redstone,

couldn't have said it better myself! Ignore all of the bullshit responses you're going to get, because you're exactly right.

[Odin2005]

323. Great OP

I'm SICK of the amoral "enemy of my enemy is my friend" attitude too many DUers have. Come on people, I though we liberals were better then that. "Enemy of my enemy is my friend" is an very KISSINGERIAN attitude I cannot stomach. This is where right-wing blowhards like OxyRush get thier talking points about "Liberals liking Saddam," by twisting that crap.

[RetroLounge]

325. Thanks Redstone...

I for one am able to separate the following, and also connect them all:

my feelings for saddam being dead
my view of fair/unfair trials
my views on the death penalty
my views on bush
my views on US culpability

We call it multi-tasking, critical thinking and intellect.

Thank you for sharing yours.

RL

[Redstone]

353. But funny how if you think one thing, people ASSUME you also think another.

A characteristic of DU (or at least the GD section of DU) that I've long found disappointing in its stridency.

Redstone

[lynne]

326. Agree 100% -

- This Saddam-apologist movement just makes those doing it look uninformed - at best - and as brutal as Saddam himself, at worst.

[donsu]

328. we are angry at the why, how and when the neo cons executed him

no one quibbles over what crimes Saddam committed.

(personally I'm against the death penalty. I feel it puts us on the same level as the criminal)

[LWolf]

329. I get irritated when people engage in bully-like rants.

I haven't really found anyone praising Saddam, to tell you the truth. I am unhappy with his execution. It has nothing to do with him, but with my opposition to the death penalty. Of course, I haven't been racing around looking for people to debate the execution with, either.

In addition to being opposed to the death penalty, I am also opposed to bullying and to people who set themselves up to judge others.

[Redstone]

351. Ballocks. If you feel bullied, it's because that's how you feel. Not because I bullied you.

There are plenty of people who have argued this point with me without trying to bring a "bullying" strawman into the discussion.

Redstone

[LWolf]

357. If you feel angry, it's because that's how you feel.

Not because anyone else "made" you by posting something you didn't like.

Either both are "strawmen," or neither are.

[Redstone]

369. Nope. Broken logic, there.

Redstone

[LWolf]

384. Not at all.

You are a thinking creature. You can choose the way you think about things, the way you rationalize them, and, in the long run, the way you feel about them. You are not a slave to your anger. You don't have to speak or act from anger, unless it somehow serves your purposes.

[mod mom]

330. read Will Pitt's thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

[progressivebydesign]

332. Thank you for posting that, I knew I'd read it somewhere.

The entire "he gassed the Kurds" has been a right wing talking point since Bush started the war.

[progressivebydesign]

331. No one's trivializing it. They're bemoaning the lack of judicial integrity.

Seriously. I did not see the trial that dealt with the thousand of kurds that Saddam allegedly gassed. I saw a trial that was run by America at Bush's pleasure. I have read things around that call some of the claims in question, about the gassing and who was in cahoots with Saddam. I think many people would have preferred a decent, non-fake, trial that led to this sentence (or a life sentence, which would have been way more effective.)

The point is that many Americans have this little idea in ingrained in them from an early age, it's what our country was built on... fair trials and a fair justice system. Saddam was tried in Iraq, so obviously our Bill of Rights does not apply to his trial. However, it does make people squeamish to see the mockery of justice (even if he's guilty as sin) and the 24 hour appeal process. For me, it's not about his guilt, it's about the process... and the seeming rush to kill him to do what exactly? Prop up Bush' miserable fucking presidency? Give him a hard on?

I know that Saddam was convicted of killing people after an assasination attempt, but damn the supposed trial was so hard to follow, that I'm not even sure. I do know that the penalty for plotting assasination in most countries would be pretty brutal, but I'm thinking he must have indescriminately killed people after the attempt, and that's what earned him a death penalty. Because otherwise, it would make no sense to give a death penalty for just going after those that tried to kill you. Well shit.. isn't that what all this is about? (ironically), Didn't Bush jr. say that Saddam "tried to kill my Daddy"?

Saddam did horrible things, as murderous dictators do. ANd I'm not minimizing his crimes, proven or alleged. I'm disturbed that we invaded a soveriegn country, killed thousands more of their civilians than Saddam probably ever did, and pulled the strings in the kangaroo court. THe rush to do this was politically motivated, and a terribly stupid move in light of the instability there, and our troops having to be there now. Does Bush believe that this execution will somehow endear him to the troops now? Not when it's their lives on the line trying to survive in a country where Bush has just created a martyr for millions there.

[Redstone]

350. And I share your concerns. I really do. But they're peripheral to my OP.

And the trial for gassing the Kurds was actually underway when the judge decided, hey, killing 148 people is reason enough to string him up.

148 is a lot of people.

Redstone

[leveymg]

338. Saddam probably deserved to be hanged at least as much as this guy

And for largely the same reasons, particularly the brutal invasion of Ethiopia and Libya,



including the use of mustard gas against villages.

[walldude]

339. I've been avoiding Saddam threads...

Because I feel no compassion for this asshat. After seeing the thread yesterday about how Saddam was telling his people "not to hate" I had to leave DU for the night, I can't sit here and watch DU make a marytr of him. While I don't agree with the way this was done, the only reason I feel bad that Saddam was executed was because it's only going to make things worse in Iraq. Otherwise, good riddance.

[happydreams]

343. You've been around here long enough to know

that the responsible party for who gassed the Kurds is still not determined. You also should understand by now that the bastards who hung him are worse.

[Redstone]

348. And I guess he didn't massacre the Marsh Arabs, either? Or kill ANYONE else?

Redstone

[achtung_circus]

349. Juan Cole made some interesting points

in his article on Salon.com today.

http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2006/12/30/saddam /

By the time of Saddam's trial, sectarian strife was widespread, and the trial simply made it worse. It was not just the inherent bias of a judicial system dominated by his political enemies. Even the crimes for which he was tried were a source of ethnic friction. Saddam Hussein had had many Sunni Arabs killed, and a trial on such a charge could have been politically savvy. Instead, he was accused of the execution of scores of Shiites in Dujail in 1982. This Shiite town had been a hotbed of activism by the Shiite fundamentalist Dawa (Islamic Call) Party, which was founded in the late 1950s and modeled on the Communist Party. In the wake of Ayatollah Ruholla Khomeini's 1979 Islamic Revolution in neighboring Iran, Saddam conceived a profound fear of Dawa and similar parties, banning them and making membership a capital crime. Young Dawa leaders such as al-Maliki fled to Tehran, Iran, or Damascus, Syria.

[happydreams]

385. Did I fucking say that!!!???

Goddamn it sometimes I wonder what the fuck happens to people brains!!

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

354. You'll get over being angry. Saddam won't get over being murdered.

That should comfort you.

[Redstone]

355. The people he had murdered (or murdered himself) aren't getting over it

too well themselves, are they?

Nor, I doubt, are their families.

Redstone

[tjwash]

356. How you been Redstone? My honest opinion on the matter is pretty short...

I just think that martyrdom / death was too good for him. My honest opinion is that keeping him in solitary confinement for the rest of his life would of been a greater punishment, but as always, we went for the big easy.

Dubya just won a round of Tyrant vs. Tyrant, but I can only see America paying a high price for this administrations insanity in the near future. Khalil al-Dulaimi claimed that his death would be a strategic mistake on the part of the American-led Allies and the trigger for a sharp rise in violence.


Have you seen any of the extended Faux News orgasm yet?

Orly said that he thinks all the anti-Americanism in the Middle East is a myth fabricated by the liberal media and Al-Queda, and golly geez for the life of him he just can't see any reason that those people over there could really hate us.

I turned it off after he said that any rational person would rather have the US and Britain in charge than Saddam. Then he squeezed his best ponderous expression on and said "what possible beef could they have with us?"

[Redstone]

361. I agree with your honest opinion 100%. Absolutely. And I thank you for having the courage to

watch fox news; there's no way I cold have done that without throwing a brick through the television.

Yes, I'd rather Hussein were made to suffer every day in solitary for the rst of his natural days. I think justice would have been better served.

But that wasn't the point of my post. I was talking to the apologists who say "Well, we don't KNOW that he killed all those Kurds with poison gas."

That's like saying, "Yeah, we SAW the pictures of those rivers choked with dead bodies in Uganda, but just becaus Idi Amin was in charge then, it doesn't mean that he had those people killed."

Isn't it?

Redstone

[Jcrowley]

366. Not an apologist- But we still don't know

This is from a US Army War College Report:

In September 1988, however -- a month after the war had ended -- the State Department abruptly, and in what many viewed as a sensational manner, condemned Iraq for allegedly using chemicals against its Kurdish population. The incident cannot be understood without some background of Iraq's relations with the Kurds. It is beyond the scope of this study to go deeply into this matter; suffice it to say that throughout the war Iraq effectively faced two enemies -- Iran and the elements of its own Kurdish minority. Significant numbers of the Kurds had launched a revolt against Baghdad and in the process teamed up with Tehran. As soon as the war with Iran ended, Iraq announced its determination to crush the Kurdish insurrection. It sent Republican Guards to the Kurdish area, and in the course of this operation - according to the U.S. State Department -- gas was used, with the result that numerous Kurdish civilians were killed. The Iraqi government denied that any such gassing had occurred. Nonetheless, Secretary of State Schultz stood by U.S. accusations, and the U.S. Congress, acting on its own, sought to impose economic sanctions on Baghdad as a violator of the Kurds' human rights.

Having looked at all of the evidence that was available to us, we find it impossible to confirm the State Department's claim that gas was used in this instance. To begin with there were never any victims produced. International relief organizations who examined the Kurds -- in Turkey where they had gone for asylum -- failed to discover any. Nor were there ever any found inside Iraq. The claim rests solely on testimony of the Kurds who had crossed the border into Turkey, where they were interviewed by staffers of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee.

And of course there is the famous NY Times article by Stephen C. Pelletiere

Are you sure you know?

[Redstone]

368. Yes, I am. How many mass graves were found in Iraq? Not one WMD, but PLENTY

of mass graves. Sorry, but I find it utterly revolting that anyone would try to make excuses for that monster Hussein.

I am still utterly astonished that people at DU will try to absolve him of his crimes against humanity.

What's next, are we at DU going to try to paint Milosevic as an innocent? Franco? Ceausescu? Hoxha? Stroessner?

Redstone

[Jcrowley]

372. Perhaps

you could go beyond your hyperbole and track a deeper historical record. In this case I suggest you learn of Lord Curzon and from there explore the entire history of the region up to present.

That's not asking too much is it?

I am still utterly astonished at how many people think their opinion precludes the historical record.

Noone is making excuses but many are looking at the deeper political machinations.

And what is interesting, or rather disturbing and predictable, is that you completely avoided any issues of substantial inquiry in what I posted.

I wish I were surprised.

Pretty sad.

[Redstone]

373. I posted about one issue. Not any "historical record." One issue.

Yes, it's asking too much, because my post had one simple subject. Anyone can "look at deeper political machinations" if they want to, and I certainly don't mind if they do, but that has nothing to do with what I said in the original post.

Be as sad as you want to be, or as disturbed as you want to be, or consider anything to be predictable if you want to, it doesn't matter to me. Your opinion of me simply does not matter to me, if you can believe that to be possible.

I posted ONE opinion on ONE subject. Hector and insult me and try to read anything you want to into what I said, even though I didn't say it, as much as you want to. I don't care.

Save your energy for lecturing someone who will listen to your supercilious bloviating (yes, I can use big words, too), OK?

Because I won't.

Just some friendly advice.

Redstone

[Jcrowley]

375. One issue

It's called compartmentalizing.

It leads to nowhere or worse.

Your one opinion on that one subject was divorced from the entire historical context.

[Redstone]

376. Well, then I'll be divorced from historical context. Guess I'll just have to live with it.

Redstone

[philosophie_en_rose]

358. Forgive me for not shedding a tear for Saddam. However, this is about us.

I couldn't care less about Saddam Hussein. I don't care that he lived like a rat in a spider hole. I don't care that he lost his power in Iraq. He doesn't really matter anymore.

But the atrocities committed now in our name do matter. The question is not whether Saddam was good, but whether our country is becoming or is committing the same kind of evil.

[WinkyDink]

359. 1982, darn straight we knew. so WHY NOW? That's what I resent most:

The cheap thrill, propaganda aid, and ratings lift it will give Bush.

[Babsbrain]

362. The Truth Is...

we don't know anymore what the truth is.

[MichiganVote]

365. Second that.

[JerseygirlCT]

363. Yup. We can acknowledge that the man committed truly

atrocious acts without needing to accept the death penalty as just in any way.

Linking the two is troublesome.

[MasonJar]

364. It is entirely possible that Iran gassed the Kurds. In addition, what

can be said about Americans, including Reagan, the Bushes, their cronies who perpetrated crimes around the globe, for profit and gain, killing millions with impunity, due to our former and current strength and our pathetic excesses as a people? I am not excusing Saddam, but America has no right to cast any stones in anyone's direction.

[Redstone]

371. Yes, you ARE "excusing Saddam," by focusing on "It's entirely possible

that Iran gassed the Kurds."

Even if that WERE true, what of his other massacres and sundry cimes against humanity?

What about them? And if WE do something wrong, does that excuse HIM? There's some broken logic in your post.

Redstone

[shrike]

367. I'm starting to lose what little love I had left for my country

After what I've seen locally and elsewhere: the pure glee over Hussein's death. Maybe we should have made a national holiday and held a picnic together. Kind of like a sporting event, since that's how most people in this country appear to view it.
I'm sickened.

[madeline_con]

370. It was a nasty spectacle, but having said that....

I have to agree Saddam was not a great statesman, etc.

I have to admit that part of my disgust is the mere fact that the little Monkey Boy is thrilled with it, and it makes me sick to think he got his way on another bit of fu*king up Iraq. The thought of him felling all puffy-chested and triumphant makes me want to

[Redstone]

374. That makes us ALL want to hurl, it does.

It's damn disappointing that we can't be glad that the world is rid of one monster, because another monster is gleeful about it.

bushyboy will be all solemn and "statesmanlike" when he speaks about it in public, but we KNOW he danced a little jig in Crawford today.

And asked himself "Who's yo daddy?"

Punk that he is.

Redstone

[sanskritwarrior]

387. Agreed

I was quite pleased to learn Saddam swung.

Just wish the republicans would stop politicizing crap like this. When they do it, it makes our lives in Iraq harder.

[dailykoff]

380. These kind of rah-rah posts make me want to throw up.

We had no business invading Iraq and murdering their president, period. You are defending a crime of gigantic proportions and a grave breach of civility and morality.

[Chomp]

382. Anyone who doesn't agree

with the basic premise that Saddam was a disgusting fucking monster is nothing more and nothing less than a braindead moron.

Good OP.

[tkmorris]

383. How do you know?

You say he gassed Kurdish towns. How do you know?

You say he massacred Marsh Arabs. How do you know?

I'm not saying I disagree with you. What I'm saying is that while I consider myself relatively well informed, I do not have enough information at my disposal to convict Saddam of ANYTHING. I know what news agencies have told me, no more.

I suspect, especially seeing what Iraq has devolved into, that Saddam could not have ruled it except with an iron fist. However I do not KNOW, and I suspect hardly anyone else does either, that he is guilty of anything.

I heard the same info you did re: Saddam and the Kurds. The difference is that you took it at face value and I said, "prove it". Have you ever seen proof or do you just choose to believe it?

[oblivious]

388. I get damned angry when people see through and reject the Bush propaganda.

The US has spent a lot of money on this propaganda and it is just FUCKING WRONG to reject it.

It makes me sick when people point out the US supported Saddam when he committed his most despicable crimes. People don't need to fucking know that. That is not part of the propaganda message.

Now you don't want me to come back here cursing like a drunken sailor on New Year's Eve, so get on message.

[Redstone]

390. Get on WHAT message? And no, I don't mind if you want to cuss.

I do it myself now and again, so you're welcome to.

Redstone