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dos pelos Donating Member (224 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 03:55 PM
Original message
Lawyer who took on Karl Rove,"suicided"
Edited on Fri Dec-29-06 04:04 PM by dos pelos
This goes under the heading of "Troublesome people making a suspicious exit";

<http://www.montereyherald.com/mld/montereyherald/news/1... >

Lawyer Ends Up Dead After Taking On Rove
Wednesday December 27th 2006, 10:26 pm

Its fishy as hell.

Paul Sanford, a prominent Aptos, California, attorney, who accused Karl Rove of treason in the Plame outing case, took a leap from the Embassy Suites Hotel in Monterey Bay on Christmas Eve. Police describe it as probable suicide, even though it appears Sanford was not depressed.

Friends and associates expressed disbelief at the news of Sanfords death and that it was ruled a suicide, saying Sanford seemed happy and had made many plans for this week and in coming months. Business associate and friend Shawn Mills said he and Sanford recently decided to open a shared law office to serve Monterey and Santa Cruz counties, something Sanford was looking forward to doing, reports the Monterey Herald. Mills said he had spoken to Sanfords wife, Paula, and that she also was in shock. He said Sanford, a father of two, was a devoted family man. Sanford would never have intentionally put his family through that trauma. Somethings not right, it doesnt make sense.

On July 25, 2005, in the James S. Brady Briefing Room at the White House, Sanford asked then press secretary Scott McClellan about Karl Rove, accused at the time by Joseph Wilson, the husband of Valerie Plame, of outing his wife as a CIA employee in retaliation for Wilsons op-ed published in the New York Times. Wilson criticized the citation of bogus yellowcake documents used as flimsy justification for invading Iraq and murdering more than 650,000 Iraqis.

McClellan was flummoxed by Sanfords question:

McClellan: Go ahead.

Sanford: Yes, thank you. There has been a lot of speculation concerning the meaning of the underlying statute and the grand jury investigation concerning Mr. Rove. The question is, have the legal counsel to the White House or White House staff reviewed the statute in sufficient specificity to determine whether a violation of that statute would, in effect, constitute treason?

McClellan: I think that in terms of decisions regarding the investigation, those are matters for those overseeing the investigation to decide.

Special counsel, Patrick Fitzgerald, decided not to charge Rove in the case, even though the former Donald Segretti dirty trickster understudy raised enough suspicion to warrant being called before a grand jury five times. Neocon Lewis Scooter Libby was charged with obstruction of justice, perjury, and making false statements to the FBI. A few weeks later, on July 13, 2006, Joseph and Valerie Wilson filed a civil suit against Cheney, Libby, Rove, and other unnamed senior White House officials, for their alleged roles in the public disclosure of her classified CIA employment.

In addition, Sanford was a champion of the downtrodden, he represented homeless people in Santa Cruz, and fought for free speech, according to Mills. As well, he hosted a radio talk show at KOMY, an Air America affiliate, although he was not associated with the bankrupt network. Sanford and Mills also hosted the Paul and Shawn Show on Saturdays at the Seaside, California, radio station KRXA.

Of course, there is no evidence Paul Sanford was pushed from at least nine floors above the large ventilation grate where he met his fate. As well, there is no evidence he committed suicide, or did he fit the profile of a suicide. However, there is plenty of evidence Sanford was a thorn in the side of the neocons, committing the ultimate sin of accusing one particularly nasty top drawer neocon, Karl Rove, of treason.









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superconnected Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 03:57 PM
Response to Original message
1. More blood on Roves hands.
.
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Buzz Clik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 03:58 PM
Response to Original message
2. Is this a parallel to Clinton's death list?
Shit happens.
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Jeffersons Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 09:00 PM
Response to Reply #2
29. so it does buzz, so it does n/t
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TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 03:59 PM
Response to Original message
3. Breaking almost every LBN rule
Not the real article title, not an credible news source, and not new within the last 24 hours.
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dos pelos Donating Member (224 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Please excuse,here is the newspaper link:
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zanne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Teacher! Teacher! You forgot to give us our homework!
Lighten up, will you?
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LTR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. Damn, I posted this thread two days ago
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dos pelos Donating Member (224 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Yep,you did.This is old,bad,news...
My apologies.
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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #6
26. Yes, you did. And I'm glad it was posted again.
Otherwise I may have forgotten the question I had for you that I did not have the opportunity to ask.

"What threat did Sanford pose to Rove as of Christmas Eve?"

If I missed it, my apologies. I would appreciate a pointer.

If he was no threat, then this would make little sense beyond retribution. I do not hold Rove above retribution, but I imagine he is smarter than to draw the attention of the watchful.
-Unless that is his intention.
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LTR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #26
43. I never mentioned Rove
I could really give two shits about the fat bastard.

I just posted an excerpt from the article in my thread. I thought he was noteworthy enough.
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Double T Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 04:14 PM
Response to Original message
8. Looks like the freeper trolls are out this afternoon...........
nay sayers, no profiles and ALL.
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dos pelos Donating Member (224 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. I'm sorry,is this a response?
I don't understand.
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peacetalksforall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 09:20 AM
Response to Reply #8
42. I think these people are more than trolls. They are
Edited on Sat Dec-30-06 09:22 AM by higher class
fire extinguishers.

Most likely organized, scheduled, supported, but not unionized.

ANd, yes, they've arrived on this scene. For sure. Same old, same old crap rain of water. Love dampness. It's falling all over my keyboard. Reach for plastic.
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 04:16 PM
Response to Original message
10. Not Sure If There Was Or Wasn't Any Foul Play, But Definitely Not At The Hands Of The Administration
( And yes, I will keep repeating this common sense conclusion in any new thread that puts forth the ridiculously misguided premise.)

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dos pelos Donating Member (224 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. Ah,now this is a response....
Edited on Fri Dec-29-06 04:27 PM by dos pelos
A guy who speaks truth to the current administration,who steps on the tail of the beast,who to family and friends gave no indication of distress,falls to his death out of a hotel window and there is no suspicion?Common sense indicates that it is ridiculously misguided to pursue a premise that there
were no other motivations other than personal distress at issue.This guy pubicly,loudly,in a White House press conference suggested that this administration was treasonous.It stinks.
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fooj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. Don't forget his investigations into the Webb "suicide" and many others...
You hit the nail on the head when you state "common sense indicates that it is ridiculously misguided"...

No kidding. I live in Santa Cruz County and I find it rather odd that his death wasn't even reported in the local papers or on local news until yesterday. Things that make you go hmmmmmm...
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midnight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #12
20. Very concerning indeed.
This man falls to his death right before the plame trial begins. You bet I'm suspicious.
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Garbo 2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 03:48 AM
Response to Reply #12
33. Sanford didn't fall out of a hotel window. He fell from one of the walkways that surround
the hotel's huge atrium. Pic of atrium showing the lower floors/walkways: http://embassysuites.hilton.com/en/es/hotels/photo_gall...
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fooj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. "Definitely"...
Pretty sure of yourself, eh? You seem quite interested in this story. You also appear to have all of the answers. No one else does. Not family. Not friends. Yet, YOU do. Have all of the answers, that is.

Common sense tells us many things. One is that NOTHING is definite with this cabal. Absolutely nothing.
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arikara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #10
23. Common sense?
:rofl:

You're not winning hearts and minds by touting the sanity of the BFEE...
:rofl:

But I guess a paycheck is a paycheck. Prolly better than walmart wages at any rate.
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SaneInSC Donating Member (201 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 08:47 AM
Response to Reply #23
40. Bingo
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 06:25 PM
Response to Reply #10
25. "Definitely Not At The Hands Of The Administration?"
How does anyone know that. We don't know if they had a hand or not.
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Just-plain-Kathy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #25
48. Maybe this was murder...
Maybe Rove wanted to send a message to any lawyer who dares to go against him.
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 04:01 AM
Response to Reply #10
34. There is no common sense in that premise because a dire motive to stop him was clearly present n/t
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Usrename Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 06:31 AM
Response to Reply #10
36. CIA Assassination Manual (Declassified)
Edited on Sat Dec-30-06 06:34 AM by Usrename
snip>
The most efficient accident, in simple assassination, is a fall of 75 feet or more onto a hard surface. Elevator shafts, stair wells, unscreened windows and bridges will serve. Bridge falls into water are not reliable. In simple cases a private meeting with the subject may be arranged at a properly-cased location. The act may be executed by sudden, vigorous of the ankles, tipping the subject over the edge. If the assassin immediately sets up an outcry, playing the horrified witness, no alibi or surreptitious withdrawal is necessary. In chase cases it will usually be necessary to stun or drug the subject before dropping him. Care is required to insure that no wound or condition not attributable to the fall is discernible after death.

http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:lFONh_vrU5YJ:www.f...


Head burried firmly in the sand, keep telling yourself that it aint so!!!
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ima_sinnic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 06:53 AM
Response to Reply #10
38. LOL! you really love "the Administration," don't you?
--so you have thoroughly investigated every clue, followed every lead to its absolute end, and can hold up absolute proof of "Definitely Not At The Hands Of The Administration"--that is just so bizarre, the way you say that--what ever could possibly make you so SURE?
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mogster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 07:14 AM
Response to Reply #10
39. Yeah, it's like Putin and Litvinenko
Couldn't possibly be the obvious.

It's interesting to notice the difference in methods; while Litvinenko died a horrible slow death that left no doubt that he was murdered, Sandford dies a death that leaves questions wether he was murdered or not. As so many other dissidents in the US.

They know how to harness and use democracy, the people behind this.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #39
45. actually Litvinenko is a little to obvious
Either the Russian govt wants people to know they did it - or someone else wants people to think the Russian govt did it.

Litvinenko was blowing the whistle on false-flag terrorism, which is probably the most significant and most understudied aspect of recent history. Blowing the whistle on that is very inconvenient to quite a few people besides Putin.

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mogster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #45
47. Your point is good as always, rman
We tend to see (foreign) governments as monolithic structures while the truth is that they are comparted, and that each fraction may have it's own reasons for doing foreign political stunts, and even have it's own apparatus to execute. If it was a Russian operation at all, that is.

And the most interesting fact left from the Litvinenko assassination isn't related to Putin, but to the British terror 'protection'; radioactive material found at many hundred locations throughout London, including many, many airplanes. One would think that that area at least by now would be secure, no? ;-)
Don't they own Geiger counters? If one can travel unhindered with pollonium 20, one can travel unhindered with plutonium or uranium.
Shows that cronyism and the utter inadequateness in handling day to day security is as apparent there as it is in the US. Or for that matter, Norway.

That's what's the scariest about it all; you sense that people up there really don't have a clue about what's going on OR posess forehand knowledge that makes them a part of what's going on - in both scenario's they are less interested in correcting the condition than in using it for own political purposes.

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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #10
44. "Not Sure" what "But Definitely Not" this
Fascinating
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walldude Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 04:24 PM
Response to Original message
11. So you think the government wacked this guy
because of a single question he asked over a year ago? Gimme a break :eyes:
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dos pelos Donating Member (224 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. Don't know.Remains suspicious to me....
Edited on Fri Dec-29-06 04:36 PM by dos pelos
I will hold it as an ambiguity.I do pay attention to the possibility that inconvenient or obnoxious people may be removed from play by governments,including our own.I do definitely think that at certain levels of power the dynamics that operate obviate,at least in this country,the ideological differences between parties,that differing principles level out into the pragmatic necessities of power manipulation in an amoral,unprincipled way.Sorry.
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walldude Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. Yeah whatever, if they were removing people there is a
huge list of folks that would have come before this guy. This kind of tin-foil hat shit is embarassing to left. Paul Wellstone I could understand but this guy? Sorry, not buying it, or your faux Dennis Miller rant.
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fooj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #11
17. He was involved in many other issues...
not just his question as a journalist in the press corp. Stranger things have happened.
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arikara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #11
24. So you think the librul media reported the whole story?
Gimme a break :eyes:
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. Point,
there!
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sillyphoenix Donating Member (136 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 01:09 AM
Response to Reply #11
31. Why not?
Who's gonna call them on it?
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 06:45 AM
Response to Reply #11
37. To many critics, reporters, insiders die like this
"jumped" or "fell" out of a hotel window, or from a roof top. Somehow "pushed" is not even to be considered a possibility, right from the get go.

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The Backlash Cometh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 04:49 PM
Response to Original message
18. If it wasn't treason before, then it most certainly would be treason now.
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formercia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 04:49 PM
Response to Original message
19. A good reason not to be lured to a hotel room
for a little play time.It may be a time you will never remember.
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midnight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 05:00 PM
Response to Original message
21. Thanks for reposting this. It bears repeating.
I know another DU memeber posted this the other day, and thanks to them as well.
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Tom Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 05:04 PM
Response to Original message
22. LBN: Rove kills Abe Lincoln in plot to eliminate liberal Republicans.
This story has Rove's fingerprints all over it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Lincoln

On April 15, 1865, Abe Lincoln was said to be assassinated by John Wilkes Booth. But we know Rove hates liberal republicans.

Is there any doubt that Rove was the mastermind behind this plot? Could Booth have acted without Rove's help? Only secret Rove supporters would have doubts.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-31-06 04:53 AM
Response to Reply #22
50. This is why i value DU
It's really only a very small minority here that puts forth ridiculous ideas like the one you present.
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Jeffersons Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 08:55 PM
Response to Original message
28. K&R n/t
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Imagevision Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 01:07 AM
Response to Original message
30. Pulitzer prize winner reporter gary Webb exposing the iran/Contra proceedings
managed to commit suicide by shooting himself T-W-I-C-E, in the face after reporting to close friends that he was being watched 24/7 by the "guys in suits"
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Garbo 2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 03:31 AM
Response to Reply #30
32. From Robert Chalmers' article including interview with Susan Bell, Webb's ex:
Webb, Bell explains, had written four letters explaining what he was about to do - one to her, one to each of their three children - and mailed them immediately before he killed himself.

"Why were there two bullet wounds?"

His former wife, her voice lowered to a whisper, explains that Webb missed with the first shot (which exited through his left cheek).

"The second bullet," adds Bell, who has worked for more than 20 years in the area of respiratory therapy, "struck his carotid artery."
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/1009-05.htm


Webb and his family lived in my area. His family has no doubt that it was suicide. I recall hearing an interview with his ex-wife who he was still close to. She and IIRC his brother had viewed the body and saw the wounds. Webb had made various arrangements prior to his death. His suicide didn't just come out of nowhere.
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StrictlyRockers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 04:12 AM
Response to Original message
35. Yeah. I don't buy it.
Maybe I've seen to many movies, but this just stinks. It has a foul odor to it.
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natrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 08:58 AM
Response to Original message
41. well if it is the family,and i think it is, they are sending the usual message
if they wanted no footprints they would have given him the untraceable heart attack injection
the family was slaughtering reporters in iraq so taking them out here just par for the sleazey course
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barbtries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 12:09 PM
Response to Original message
46. i read the article
and googled him...ended up on free republic. i never go to free republic, but today i had to read what they were saying about this man's tragic death. it probably is comparable to some of the post mortems over here re: the two really famous men who have died in the past few days. Only one person had enough respect to mention that his death is a tragedy whether it be suicide or otherwise.
messages

it seems sort of ironic but last night my web surfing landed me on a page that listed a whole lot of people who were connected in some way to JFK's assassination: people who died following his death. it was amazing to see how many died violently and mysteriously. I mean just the sheer numbers. i was kinda shocked. a recent movie i watched on line made an excellent case for conspiracy in JFK's murder and presented evidence linking gw's daddy to dallas on the day. another site offered up that nixon resigned because HUNT was going to be exposed as having been in dallas that day posing as a street bum. more and more and more every day i perceive the present administration as culpable, and believe more firmly every day that the body count is higher than anybody will ever know.

anyway. i hope whatever the truth is regarding paul sanford's terrible death comes out. for justice, and for his family.

peace out
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rambler_american Donating Member (565 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #46
49. It's worth mentioning
that Hinckley's brother was scheduled to have dinner with Smirk's brother the evening of the attempted assassination of Reagan. Poppy would have been President a few years sooner.
Dunno. There are a lot of coincidences surrounding the b*sh family.
Just sayin'.
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