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"We need to get out with honor." Something I keep hearing

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Skidmore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 07:02 AM
Original message
"We need to get out with honor." Something I keep hearing
these RW war supporters saying. Several have made that statement this morning on Washington Journal, including a couple of people with family members serving in Iraq.

How do you get out with honor when there was no honor getting in? What is honorable about a lie? You can't make a dishonorable act honorable by continuing to do the same thing.

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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 07:10 AM
Response to Original message
1. They're a hoot ain't they?
Searching for honor in a war crime.

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Crazy Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 07:12 AM
Response to Original message
2. A rush to go in....restraint to go out
Someone on DU made a good point last week. The US can only leave when the defense contractors and their lobbyists say they can leave.
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 07:14 AM
Response to Original message
3. getting the hell out of Iraq tout de suite
is about as close to honorable as these assclowns are going to get
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charlie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 07:14 AM
Response to Original message
4. Nixon retread
Peace With Honor. That stupid stalling tactic cost a lot of blood.
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brokensymmetry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 07:19 AM
Response to Original message
5. Get out with honor? What a question.
At best, this was an insane project directed by fools.
More and more, those who wrote that this war was one
of the greatest military errors in history are being
proved right.

At worst - if this whole thing was done intentionally,
for reasons I cannot fathom - then we have involved
ourselves in something palpably evil.

I think the only way we could salvage some degree
of honor would be a combination of impeachment and
sending * to the Hague. Somehow, I doubt the RW
war supporters mean that.
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achtung_circus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 08:05 AM
Response to Original message
6. For those of us of a certain age
it's deja vu all over again.
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baldguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 08:25 AM
Response to Original message
7. Say I came to you house uninvited.
I break down the front door, up end your living room, set fire to the kitchen, kill your dog an take down the main supporting wall.

I yell to you above the chaos, "I can fix it! Better than before!" as I lug a chainsaw into the bathroom.

Do you want me to stay? Or only leave when I'm finished? Or only leave when I can do so "honorably"?

Or do you want me to just leave?
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Malikshah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 08:31 AM
Response to Original message
8. "Honor" is like "Cool" It cannot be earned or striven for
Any time I hear folks talk about getting out w/ honor, I can't help but think of a group of duplicitous, dishnorable, folks who lack any semblance of principles and, to some degree, are wetting themselves in a panic.

Honor is bestowed upon someone, it is not acquired.

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Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #8
21. That very much varies by type of honor.
Edited on Fri Dec-29-06 11:10 AM by igil
It's possible to strive for honor in the most mercenary of ways in some honor systems; it's possible for it to be nearly impossible for honor not to be "bestowed" in some cases, and dishonorable not to do so--while in other cases even honorable acts have to be disputed, lest you and your honor group look bad by comparison. Honor can depend less upon your values and morality and more upon what people see and say. It's possible for everybody to know you're a bastard, but because nobody can or will admit it in public nobody can factor it into how to judge that person's honor.

In other systems, it's a moot point: honor comes from having a just value system and living according to it. In some systems, it's nearly a zero-sum game; in others, the quantity of honor is unbounded.

The first thing is to define honor.
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Jade Fox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 08:34 AM
Response to Original message
9. That's the attitude that kept us in Vietnam.....
for years and years.

Sometimes I think people never learn anything.
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leesa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 08:39 AM
Response to Original message
10. It's like screwing to attain virginity
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radfringe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 08:40 AM
Response to Original message
11. we lost our honor when we invaded another country based on lies
Edited on Fri Dec-29-06 08:50 AM by radfringe
then again, maybe our honor is hiding in the same place as those WMDs... somewhere under bush's desk?

on edit: I also keep hearing the "leaving with honor" crap from my dad. He is also of the "my country right or wrong" mentality..and repeated this to me on more than one occassion - until I asked him where his undivided, unquestioning support for the "presidency" was during the Clinton years..

of course I got the "that's different" excuse

then I put this to him: "ok dad, it's 2009, Hillary has just been sworn into office, we're still in Iraq. She has a plan - do you support her or not?"

dad: "what's the plan"

me: "Plan is not relevant - she's president - right or wrong - do you support her no matter what?"

dad: sputter sputter. I'd have to know what the plan is going to be, I can't respond based on a hypothetical.

me: same here - I can't support bush based on his hypothetical plan

dad: he has a plan

me: so what is it?

dad: he's not going to tell people about it and tip off the terrorists.

me: ok so Hillary has a plan, but she's not going to tell us about it because it will tip off the terrorists - do you support her or not?

dad: sputter sputter

me: listen dad, you raised me to think for myself. which mean I gather information, read the news, read books, listen to different pundits and make up my own mind. My country right or wrong is for sheep

...at that point my mom gets on the phone and breaks up the argument... it's going to be interesting in about 2 week when I go out to visit them for a week...

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PreacherCasey Donating Member (717 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 08:58 AM
Response to Original message
12. Ahhh... the absurdity of EGO at work.
We don't care about the people who died and the destruction we have caused by waging this war. We don't care about the dishonorable foreign policy we have been pursuing for years which affected millions worldwide. We don't care about HUMANITY.

We care about looking "strong and honorable" in the eyes of the world. People who would care about such a thing are insane. Look at the destruction we have wrought, we have NO RIGHT to demand an "honorable" with-drawl, even though it's not even possible in our current situation. Sickening.
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ProfessorGAC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 09:02 AM
Response to Original message
13. There Is Honor In Admitting A Mistake
So, we get out with honor by apologizing, admitting we screwed up and getting out of their country.

That would be honorable, IMO.
The Professor
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 09:30 AM
Response to Reply #13
18. you present the only possible honorable scenerio Professor
and i agree with you-
it would be honorable to admit while we were leaving, that WE, (not the Iraqi people) had made the mistake of entering into a country we had no business in, and encouraging destruction and chaos-

Telling the truth, and acknowleding our regrets and mistakes is the first step towards healing our own wounds- and learning lessons that have cost far too much...... far, far too much...not in monetary ways- in lives lost, and futures destroyed
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ProfessorGAC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #18
20. Everyone Makes Mistakes
The honor is always in admitting them and then learning from them. There is no honor is pretending mistakes weren't made. That's cowardice and there is no honor in cowardice.
The Professor
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 09:10 AM
Response to Original message
14. Honor?
Forget that. We've blown honor all to hell.

We went over there to fight them so we wouldn't have to fight them over here. 'Cause they can beat us over here on 9/11.

Yeah, that's right, they kicked our ass on 9/11. They embarassed the hell outta us. But instead of being honorable and acknowledging their grievances, we reeked revenge upon their neighbors. Didn't matter whether they were innocent or not, our lynch-mob mentality reeked revenge.

There never was any honor to start with.
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Beelzebud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 09:19 AM
Response to Original message
15. We had no honor going in. It's impossible to have it going out.
Shock and Awe in the middle of the fucking night was not a display of honor... It was a display of bloodthirsty cowardice.
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porphyrian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 09:20 AM
Response to Original message
16. You can't get honor from a dishonorable war.
The only way to restore honor to our troops now is to pull out immediately and to punish those responsible for this illegal war.
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LynnTheDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 09:21 AM
Response to Original message
17. Why? We got in without any honor whatsofucking ever.
So why get out with honor, which of course is an impossible task. We invaded a nation that had not been doing one damn thing to anyone. There is no honor, there can be no honor, there will be no honor.

But we can stop doing the wrong thing, and get the fuck out.

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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 09:35 AM
Response to Original message
19. There is no honor to be had..
It was dishonorable from the beginning. It's disgusting and sickening.
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