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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 04:24 AM
Original message
Grand Canyon park can't give estimate of age; Bush says may upset fundies


A new book claiming that Noah's Flood is responsible for the big hole is for sale at the Grand Canyon book store.

According to Public Employees for Environmental Responsibility (PEER) in a report released this week , Grand Canyon National Park is not permitted to give an official estimate of the geologic age of its principal feature, due to pressure from Bush administration appointees.

Furthermore, a book approved by the Service claiming the Grand Canyon was created by Noah's flood ,rather than by geologic forces, is on sale in the park for more than three years, even though a review was promised to Congress and the press. A Freedom of Information request reveals that no review has ever been requested, nor taken place.

"In order to avoid offending religious fundamentalists, our National Park Service is under orders to suspend its belief in geology," stated PEER Executive Director Jeff Ruch. "It is disconcerting that the official position of a national park as to the geologic age of the Grand Canyon is 'no comment.'" PEER urged the new Director of the National Park Service (NPS), Mary Bomar, to end the stalling tactics, remove the book from sale at the park and allow park interpretive rangers to honestly answer questions from the public about the geologic age of the Grand Canyon.

http://www.alternet.org/bloggers/don/46043/
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Cooley Hurd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 04:29 AM
Response to Original message
1. And we have another 2 fucking years of this shit...
:banghead:
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HereSince1628 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 05:13 AM
Response to Reply #1
12. 2 years of Bush support for this lunacy maybe, but it'll last much much longer
I think we can reasonably expect the same stupidity to plague your great great grandchildren.
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ItsTheMediaStupid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 08:34 AM
Response to Reply #12
51. Self delete.
Edited on Fri Dec-29-06 08:38 AM by ItsTheMediaStupid
never mind.
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 04:35 AM
Response to Original message
2. I don't know whether to laugh
or cry. Lunatics led by a fugging madman.
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puebloknot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 09:14 AM
Response to Reply #2
62. Well, think of it this way!
The faith-based National Science Foundation of today can fund an expedition to God's Hole in the Ground for the purpose of finding God's ark, and quite possibly some of God's animals that were on said ark when this flood happened. Forget that Mt. Arrarat myth. The ark is really in a cavern, in a canyon, and Clementine will give you a guided tour!

(Haven't been to bed. Been up writing. There's a foot of snow on the ground in Santa Fe. Can't get out. This is what cabin fever will do to you.)

Glad to meet you, Brother Malaise! Might as well laugh. Crying gets us nowhere!
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louis-t Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #62
75. Remember! There were dinosaurs on the Ark!
Pat Robertson sez so. Sheeesh!
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Island Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 04:36 AM
Response to Original message
3. Wow - this is apparently for real.
I thought for sure this was a piece from the Onion. Holy shit. I've been rendered speechless. :banghead:
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Tesha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 06:41 AM
Response to Reply #3
33. Irony and Satire pretty much died Decemer 12th, 2000. (NT)
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NewJeffCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 07:40 AM
Response to Reply #3
41. They announced this a few years back...
It shouldn't come as a big surprise to folks.
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 04:36 AM
Response to Original message
4. What crap
Why do I have to have the irrational beliefs of the religious insane imposed upon the whole country?

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Higans Donating Member (819 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #4
119. There is a Canyon? you mean the earth isn't flat?dear God what Blasphemy,
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 04:38 AM
Response to Original message
5. damn
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Botany Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 04:39 AM
Response to Original message
6. Good now we can go back to Paul Bunyon and Babe digging the Great Lakes



That Ice age stuff is so 1950s.

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johnnie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 07:45 AM
Response to Reply #6
44. .
:spray:

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gr8dane_daddy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 08:39 AM
Response to Reply #6
54. That's so freaking funny
:rofl:
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Left Is Write Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #6
103. You mean....they didn't?
Edited on Fri Dec-29-06 12:46 PM by Left Is Write
:yoiks:
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WCGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 04:41 AM
Response to Original message
7. The Taliban has taken up residence in DC....
Jesus H Christ...

A nation of Morons...
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kestrel91316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #7
99. Actually they are known as Dominionists. Check them out on Google.
Way beyond scary.
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 04:49 AM
Response to Original message
8. i'm surprised nobody said -- unbelievable.
which of course it is --

no, i've rubbed my eyes and the article is STILL there.
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 05:15 AM
Response to Reply #8
16. That's why I don't know whether to
laugh or cry. This is called celebrating ignorance
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 05:36 AM
Response to Reply #16
20. yeah -- i'm a cynic.
i don't believe that the people who wrote the book believe a word that's in it.

it's for the people they fleece -- and for fueling a {cultural}war.
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siligut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 09:24 AM
Response to Reply #20
67. Right you are, reality is so over-rated.
It is a faith-based state of mind they want. Get a mind to go there and you dont need facts, proof or reality. The bible has been re-written for kings, it is all about control.
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ChairmanAgnostic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #16
101. a popular pasttime in parts of this here country.
Think Kansas before even the GOPers decided that the ultras were too weird, even for them.
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louis-t Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #8
76. My first thought was: "un-friggin-believable"
I just got up too late today.
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SpiralHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 04:51 AM
Response to Original message
9. "You fact-based scientists can just shut up and sit down." - BushCo republicons
Edited on Fri Dec-29-06 04:52 AM by SpiralHawk
"We are going with the Faith-based approach, smirk smirk, except we are skipping over the Thou Shalt Not Kill subclause of the Nine Commandments in our Holey Bible."

- BushCol ChristoFascists
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pinniped Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 04:56 AM
Response to Original message
10. Oh $hit!
Edited on Fri Dec-29-06 05:23 AM by pinniped
I remember this garbage from a couple years ago:

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=%2Fc%2Fa%2F2004...


The book, which sells for $16.99, includes essays from creationists and theologians. Vail wrote in the introduction, "For years, as a Colorado River guide I told people how the Grand Canyon was formed over the evolutionary time scale of millions of years. Then I met the Lord. Now, I have a different view of the Canyon, which according to a biblical time scale, can't possibly be more than a few thousand years old."


Ya, a river guide is suddenly a geological expert because he talked to the Lord.

This is my new homepage!

http://creationwiki.org/Grand_Canyon_was_carved_by_retr...

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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 05:14 AM
Response to Reply #10
14. (really.. Don't draw their attention to it)
It WILL be changed. These screwballs love to do this crap.
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pinniped Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 05:23 AM
Response to Reply #14
17. You're right. I don't want it to disappear.
Edits....
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #10
125. 'Then I met the Lord. Now, I have a different view of the Canyon'
Good gravy.
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Flubadubya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 05:11 AM
Response to Original message
11. OUTRAGEOUS!!
WTF with these fundies? Watch out... they will be dictating legislation if not stopped. Oh wait... they have already, haven't they? :puke:
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LaurenG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 05:14 AM
Response to Original message
13. So they are OPENLY misleading people
who would have thought this administration would ever do that! :sarcasm:
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izzie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 05:15 AM
Response to Original message
15. Pretty funny.
Does show that the Bush nuts have got to just about every thing. I used to do business with a group of these off beat Bible people, and what they really were interested in was money and power how to get any from any one they could. They would say any thing and use some off beat Bible thing to back it up. To think I started hearing how they were going to take over the schools in the South in the 60's and I thought it was nuts thinking no Am. in this day and age would be so stupid as to let that happen. One day a group walked right into my home sat on sofa and started reading the Bible to me. I was wild and they would not leave. I should have woke up and learned then. Seems odd that these nuts have really got so far and have so much say.
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 06:19 AM
Response to Reply #15
27. money and power are the core of the evangelical movement
IMO.

It has absolutely nothing to do with actual spirituality.
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izzie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 06:30 AM
Response to Reply #27
30. They are one odd group. I lived in Alaska and they were every place.
Funny I also once lived in Saudi and the South and both places had the same type trying to run every thing and every one. Money and power go together.
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tblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #30
200. Damn straight. It's the 'people' who are scary. The blind followers.
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kevinbgoode Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 11:15 PM
Response to Reply #30
212. Tell me about that. . .
I've seen in a couple of places that the evangenitals have attempted to take over Alaska. Is it really that bad up there?
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izzie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-31-06 06:17 AM
Response to Reply #212
226. L frankly had never seem so many and trying to rule things.
The churches were just bad but people seemed to want to go and do as they said. First thing I can recall in the shutting down of bars. They must have got in to govt. as that started. Hours were made shorter and all that. It maybe just that this is what happens when families move in but the odd part of this was that the college did a big poll on the pipe line and what happened to the people and it was not the people who lived in Alaska who brought in the high rate of VD, and crooks and all that but the people who came to work the pipe line and the big churches that came with that group. I found the really odd thing was that these fundamentalist seemed to be in every church Mormons, or any Ch. group. These people were in the college and in business. We had a group that took us to court but thank God the judge would not take the case from them. Said it was foolish. If you recall the Blue laws of NE it was sort of like we would have them all back. You would see people in college reading Bibles to other kids pushing what they wanted. It would even turn up in classes where I knew one women that said the head guy from one church came to class to have them stop teaching some thing he did not like. Very odd stuff for a person that grew up with folders of Church vs. State on the coffee table. When I left one ch. was fighting the police that they would take care of wife/child beaters and did not want the police into it at all. I do not know what happened with that.
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dipsydoodle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 05:27 AM
Response to Original message
18. Wiki Grand Canyon
The principal consensus among geologists is that the Colorado River basin (of which the Grand Canyon is a part) has developed in the past 40 million years and that the Grand Canyon itself is probably less than five to six million years old (with most of the downcutting occurring in the last two million years). The result of all this erosion is one of the most complete geologic columns on the planet.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Canyon

Noah's Flood indeed ! :rofl:
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pinniped Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 05:42 AM
Response to Reply #18
23. Hey, make sure you use the right pedia!
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 06:22 AM
Response to Reply #23
28. lmao... they couldn't even bother to create their own stylesheet...
they just stole wikipedia's.

How very xian of them.

:rofl:
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lapfog_1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 07:20 AM
Response to Reply #23
39. How does the flood event cause the two sides of the canyon
to be different heights? 300 meters different? This can only happen if the canyon is created by a series of uplifts and sediment cutting... If a crack appeared and then a single flood came and ate away at the sides of the splintering crack (they never say what caused a crack in the earth's crust like this, I guess GOD did it) the sides of the canyon would be more or less even, which (having hiked both from Phantom Ranch) they are NOT.

Oh well, Dumbing Down of America: Mission Accomplished!

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beltanefauve Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 09:48 PM
Response to Reply #39
168. Watch that stuff!
You're asking WAY too many questions. Where's your FAITH? There's no such thing as questions or problems in this world. If something doesn't make sense, than obviously there's something wrong with your relationship with The Lord. You need to fix your relationship with The Lord. Everything else will just fall in place.

Dear God, please save me from your followers!
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smirkymonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 07:29 AM
Response to Reply #23
40. I'm speechless... check this out
http://www.canyonministries.com /

and the NY Times article:
http://www.canyonministries.com/index_files/NYTimes.htm

"...To Kathryn Crotts, 56, a pastor's wife from Greensboro, N.C. , touching the canyon's basement rock was a spiritual moment.

"In the book of Genesis, it talks about God walking the face of the earth," Mrs. Crotts explained. "Maybe His footprints are there."





:crazy:
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pinniped Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 08:47 AM
Response to Reply #40
55. Ya, more proof everyone on his boat is stupid.
Indeed, all the American adults on Mr. Vail's boats voted for President B* last fall, while all but two on the evolutionists' rafts cast ballots for Senator John Kerry.
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ironflange Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-31-06 12:07 AM
Response to Reply #55
219. And the other two voted for Ralph
No doubt.
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Canuckistanian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #23
158. Wow, there's a waste of time and effort
A rewritten Wiki that "debunks" only the fundies' most favorite hot-button issues.

Strange, but I don't see a page refuting nuclear fisson. After all, it, too, is only a "theory".
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Beartracks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-31-06 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #18
234. Praytell, how could it be?
Right... How could all the flood-borne sediment have hardened into erosion-able rock in 40 days, anyway? Or... Do they argue that the canyon formed immediately during floodwater recession, and all the remaining sediment just hardened like that in the 3000-or-so years since then? What -- did it bake in the desert sun?
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Miss Chybil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 05:35 AM
Response to Original message
19. I feel more Talibanish every day.
Thanks, George Bush.
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onenote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 05:39 AM
Response to Original message
21. they shouldn't muzzle the park rangers, but why ban the book
the book is a crock, but just as I have problems with the govt muzzling the rangers, I have problems with calls for the removal of the book.
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AndreaCG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 09:04 AM
Response to Reply #21
60. It sounds like they're not selling the scientific books
If this is the only one available there, it's religious propaganda, and inappropriate for a government agency to sell.
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onenote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 09:27 AM
Response to Reply #60
69. actually, I don't see anything to indicate that they aren't selling scientific books
Did I miss something?
Also, the FAQs on the official NPS website for the canyon discusses its geologic age.

Just makes me wonder about this whole hubub...

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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #69
142. They don't sell any other books for fear of offending the fucking fundies!
Read the article.

But don't let the facts get in the way of your "beliefs"...
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onenote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 04:58 AM
Response to Reply #142
190. don't know what article you're reading
nothing at all about not selling other books.

but don't let your fantasies get in the way of the facts.
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 06:20 AM
Response to Reply #190
198. How about the letter or the Director's Order? Ring any bells?
In August 2003, the Park Service approved a creationist text, Grand Canyon: A Different
View, for sale in park bookstores and museums. The book by Tom Vail claims that the
Grand Canyon is really only a few thousand years old, developing over a biblical rather
than an evolutionary time scale. That same month, the Grand Canyon National Park
superintendent appealed to NPS Headquarters for a “review of the book in terms of its
appropriateness” for sale in a park-sponsored facility.



During this same period, a review by Park Service geologists not only found the book
wildly inaccurate but that its sale violated agency policies and undercut its scientific
education programs. On January 25, 2004 David Shaver, the Chief of the Park Service’s
Geologic Resources Division sent a memo (enclosed) to NPS Headquarters calling for
removal of the book, concluding --

“Our review of …NPS policies and Grand Canyon: A Different View, lead us to
conclude that this book: does not use accurate, professional and scholarly knowledge;
is not based on science but a specific religious doctrine; does not further the public's
understanding of the Grand Canyon's existence; does not further the mission of the
National Park Service…and finally, that this book should not have been approved for
sale in NPS affiliated book sales.”



8.4.2 Historical and Scientific Research. Superintendents, historians, scientists,
and interpretive staff are responsible for ensuring that park interpretive and
educational programs and media are accurate and reflect current
scholarship…Questions often arise round the presentation of geological,
biological, and evolutionary processes. The interpretive and educational treatment
used to explain the natural processes and history of the Earth must be based on
the best scientific evidence available, as found in scholarly sources that have
stood the test of scientific peer review and criticism.
The facts, theories, and
interpretations to be used will reflect the thinking of the scientific community in
such fields as biology, geology, physics, astronomy, chemistry, and paleontology.
Interpretive and educational programs must refrain from appearing to
endorse religious beliefs explaining natural processes. Programs, however,
may acknowledge or explain other explanations of natural processes and events.
(Emphasis added)

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onenote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #198
202. I'm still looking; Where does it say no other books are allowed to be sold?
The post I was replying to said: "They don't sell any other books for fear of offending the fucking fundies!"

Where does it say that they don't sell "any other books"????
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #202
209. I'm not talking about other books.
Just this one.
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onenote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-31-06 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #209
232. okay, but the post I was responding to claimed no other books are sold
Edited on Sun Dec-31-06 03:32 PM by onenote
if you follow the subthread, you'll see that there was a post saying that the Grand Canyon bookstore doesn't sell any books other than the fundie book. I questioned where that information came from. You weighed in that I should look at the letter or Director's order. Easy to see how I might think you were suggesting that's where I'd find information indicating no other books are allowed to be sold. To be honest, I'm a bit confused what the point of your post was since it apparently wasnt' in response to my post.

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Beartracks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-31-06 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #198
235. That seems pretty clear to me.
>>8.4.2 Historical and Scientific Research. Superintendents, historians, scientists,
and interpretive staff are responsible for ensuring that park interpretive and
educational programs and media are accurate and reflect current
scholarshipQuestions often arise round the presentation of geological,
biological, and evolutionary processes. The interpretive and educational treatment
used to explain the natural processes and history of the Earth must be based on
the best scientific evidence available, as found in scholarly sources that have
stood the test of scientific peer review and criticism. The facts, theories, and
interpretations to be used will reflect the thinking of the scientific community in
such fields as biology, geology, physics, astronomy, chemistry, and paleontology.
Interpretive and educational programs must refrain from appearing to
endorse religious beliefs explaining natural processes. Programs, however,
may acknowledge or explain other explanations of natural processes and events.

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OnyxCollie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 09:27 AM
Response to Reply #21
68. They don't need to muzzle the rangers.
Instead of receiving promotions through merit, national park managers are now appointed. No need to worry about any friction, when the indiviuals have already pledged their loyalty to Dear Leader.
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A Simple Game Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #21
74. Banning the book will just sell more of them.
I can see the ads now:

Buy the book banned by the park service here!
This is the book the Government doesn't want you to read!
Finally the truth in this book banned by your government, buy it now!
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LanternWaste Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #21
88. it's counter-productive in educating visitors
Let me qualify this by stating for the record that I am a Christian...

I can't see any good reason that a book based on religion should be sold in a site-, science- and topic-specific park run by the govt in the current context. It's absurd and it's counter-productive in educating visitors to geology in general and (specifically) the Grand Canyon.

In the same vein, I wouldn't see any good reason to sell Hubbard's 'Dianetics' or Bullfinch's 'Mythology' at the NASA gift shop.

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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #21
126. The book doesn't need to be 'banned', but why sell it at a govt store?
That is wholly inappropriate.
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onenote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #126
128. I guess I'd need to know what sort of other books are sold
For example, do they sell works of fiction set in the Grand Canyon? Children's books that are non-scientific in nature?

The problem I have is with the government singling out a particular point of view for exclusion, so it is important to know what sort of materials they do allow to be sold.

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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #128
129. Christian books do not belong in a government bookstore. nt
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onenote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #129
133. serious question: should govt funded public libraries carry "Christian books"
Should a state university bookstore or library carry the King James bible?

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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #133
134. Bookstore: no. Library: no problem
If that makes sense. Purveying and cataloging for reference are two different things in my mind.
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onenote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #134
135. follow up: should a public university have a comparative religion class
and should the bookstore stock copies of the Koran, Torah, New Testament, etc?

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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #128
143. I suppose you need proof of the amercans' torture of iraqi prisoners, too...
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 05:56 AM
Response to Reply #128
195. Did you read the article and the letter?
It was pretty clear why they wanted to "ban" the book.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #21
203. The problem is with giving governmental imprimatur to a lie.
It is not a religious theory. It is a lie. If someone else want to sell it, fine. But the government, in the person of the park service, should be no party to it.
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 05:41 AM
Response to Original message
22. I feel sick.
Seriously, stop the planet.


jesus christ, people, what are we going to do if we can't stop them?

let them have everything?
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Danger Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #22
179. They WANT everything...
...and they will TAKE everything...if we don't stop them. Christians and non-Christians must face them TOGETHER.
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 01:26 AM
Response to Reply #179
183. Another poster said the magic word: Taliban
What happened in Afghanistan will happen here.

Think the Taliban wrested control of their country by force?

Not so.

By the time the other half of this country wakes up, it will be too late.
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Danger Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 01:29 AM
Response to Reply #183
184. Damn straight. I shudder to think of what will happen...
if/when the fundies take full control...we can't let that happen!
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 01:33 AM
Response to Reply #184
186. All the more reason to make sure we do as well in '08 as we did this year.
Or it will have been for naught.
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sweetpotato Donating Member (678 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 06:00 AM
Response to Original message
24. Taliban
Taliban, Taliban, Taliban.

The way they worship may be a little different, but the end is the same. Stifle whatever doesn't support the theology.

It makes me tired and sad.
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etherealtruth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 06:02 AM
Response to Original message
25. This is utterly ridiculous
I ... I ... I ... words escape me.
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 06:17 AM
Response to Original message
26. so how about those of us in the reality-based community that are offended by non-science crap
like the Grand Canyon being carved by "Noah's flood". :eyes: :dunce: :freak:

Seriously, that is offensive to anyone who has anything more than a grade school education.
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suziedemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 06:24 AM
Response to Original message
29. Is it a bad sign when to believe your religion you can't believe Science?
I think so!
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Wiley50 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 06:40 AM
Response to Original message
31. They Figure That over A Generation Or Two They Can Shoehorn
us back into the 50's

and, of course, socially cleanse those that don't fit.

The 60's really rocked their world

That's why I own a gun
and lots of ammo
just like they do
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Ilsa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #31
162. Bwaaahahaha! A woman in the store told me that she was
worried about the Dems taking over Congress and the 2nd Amendment. I explained to her that it was no longer an issue to the Dems: we're armed and loaded to the teeth just like they are!

She looked scared.
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tblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #162
201. Oh now that was brilliant. I'm sure when they think of the 2nd amendment, the last thing they
envision is liberals, gays, and nonwhites armed, locked, and loaded. LOL!

I'm adding your retort to my repertoire!
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #31
204. In the fifties, these people would have been laughed out of town.
If there was anything true about the 50s it was that science was honored and exaulted - US science and technology had put us at the pinnacle of world power. It was at the end of the 50s that Life Magazine asked "Is God Dead?" because of the prevelance of rationalism over the previous two decades.

The 50s were screwed up in a lot of ways, but not by these types.
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 11:24 PM
Response to Reply #31
215. Back to the 50s? 1150, maybe. In 1950, we did have science.
Edited on Sat Dec-30-06 11:26 PM by havocmom
They have taken citizen rights back to pre-Magna Carta via the shit the last Congress approved. They don't want Ozzie and Harriet, they want the Dark Ages.

I recall back in the late 70s, many people wanted to 'put a fence around Iran and let them live in the middle ages...' Same sort of folks want to force us all to go back even further here.

Anyone but me smell the Library of Alexandria burning again? How long before females aren't allowed to learn to read?
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derby378 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 06:40 AM
Response to Original message
32. It's hard to find words to react to this deliberate attempt to dumb down Americans
I'm tempted to key up Dumbing Down by Chumbawamba on iTunes. It sounds way too appropriate.

Are you happy now in Theme Park, USA?
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Yukari Yakumo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #32
98. I think Ministry's "Lies, Lies, Lies" is as just as appropiate too {nt}
uguu
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Ex Lion Tamer Donating Member (445 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #98
109. YES!!!!!!!
Another Ministry fan!!!

Saw them a couple of time this last tour: House of Blues in LA and House of Blues in Chicago. Great shows.

I've come to the conclusion that the only redeeming quality of W's presidency is that it pissed of Al enough to start making good music again!
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mainegreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 06:43 AM
Response to Original message
34. Fuck Bush. He's wrong. The world is not 6000 years old. End of story.
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Greybnk48 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 07:01 AM
Response to Reply #34
35. Careful, you'll upset the "religiously insane."
I was out there a couple of years ago and saw the books for sale in the gift shop. There were two book racks to choose from; one set of books with factual data and in another rack, one set of books that presented the Canyon as being formed by Noah's Flood. The picture on the cover of both books was identical so you could really not tell them apart at first glance.

It was my understanding that the radically religious had also won a court case to place plaques on the trails going down into the canyon with Biblical sayings on them.
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Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #35
107. Oh, I SO want them to come and stink up this thread. See my sig. -nt
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ironflange Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-31-06 12:11 AM
Response to Reply #107
220. Check out my sig
I found it on http://randi.org .

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Edith Ann Donating Member (213 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #35
111. Fundies ie religiously insane."
I believe a few centuries back, the Fundies of the time believed that the Sun and Planets revolved around the Earth. Of course this was proven wrong by the science of the day, but not before Galileo was punished for advocating Copernicus' theory 60 years after the fact. My point is, that what is is. No matter what the Fundies believe or advocate it doesn't make them right about GOD's World. I have said this in the past on another blog. I believe Genesis is the poetry of creation and Natural Selection is the nuts and bolts of our world. Why people are afraid to discover the wonders of the world I can not understand. Why it threatens their concept of God I do not understand. I seems the more we know about our world the more proof we have of a higher being.
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Quantess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #111
131. There are still a sizeable number who acknowledge the Earth is round,
Edited on Fri Dec-29-06 03:16 PM by quantessd
but who insist that the Sun revolves around the Earth and the other planets revolve around the Sun.
Geocentrists. :crazy:

Here's a wacky link. It looks sincere: http://www.fixedearth.com/
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mainegreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #131
137. Looks like the author of that page hangs with that Hypercube guy. nt
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magellan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 02:46 AM
Response to Reply #131
188. So they believe the sun orbits the earth once a day??
Then they must also believe the sun is much closer (and smaller) than scientists tell us it is. Oh yep, I found it: http://www.reformation.org/stationary-earth.html . The sun is only 3 million miles away, not 93 million. Those damn scientists arbitrarily stuck a '9' in front of the '3' to support the lie that we revolve around the sun.

I hope NASA knows when to use their fake numbers and when to use the real ones!!

:rofl:

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Manifestor_of_Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #111
166. Ferdinand Magellan said this:
"The Church says the Earth is Flat, but I have seen the Shadow on the Moon, and it is round; and I have more faith in a Shadow on the Moon than in the Church."


:rofl: Love it!!!
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 07:08 AM
Response to Original message
36. And they blame public education for our youths' ignorance.
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tanyev Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 07:15 AM
Response to Original message
37. Funny how nobody cares how many people fundies offend.
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smirkymonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 07:18 AM
Response to Original message
38. My head just exploded.
:nuke:
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Usrename Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 07:41 AM
Response to Original message
42. We'll soon be recognized as the dumbest country on earth.
We're almost there now, but we had to slow down a little to make sure that we leave no child behind.
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mtnester Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 07:43 AM
Response to Reply #42
43. Already, methinks
sad
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Ian_rd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 07:51 AM
Response to Original message
45. Attention God-hating Satan worshippers: Click here to save your soul.
Here's the book on sale at the Grand Canyon store: Grand Canyon: A Different View (Hardcover)

The real tragedy here is that the Grand Canyon staff is not permitted to teach their visitors about the Spaghetti Monster's divine hand in creating this beautiful landmark because of the liberal anti-Spaghetti secular humanist fanatics.
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 07:53 AM
Response to Original message
46. THAT is precious. Let's see how that survives the light of day...
:evilgrin:
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hootinholler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 08:05 AM
Response to Original message
47. Didn't they erect a plaque? n/t
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ChickMagic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 08:14 AM
Response to Original message
48. If I were a park ranger
I just wouldn't go along with it. In fact, I was a park ranger right after college giving geologic tours over a former brackish cretaceous coral reef. To fundies. I was under instruction to tone it down for them, but I ignored it. Their leader would ask, "Well, couldn't all these animals have died in the flood?" I would just say, "Unlikely. They were aquatic. That means they lived in water."
My boss would ask why I didn't talk about the flood. I just told him that I'm a geo/biologist, not a theologian.
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Gelliebeans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #48
100. Thank you ginbarn
for doing your job despite the pressure. I am sick to the teeth of denying or skewing science because it might offend someone.
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ChickMagic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #100
145. Me too, gelliebeans
You're welcome. I wouldn't have it any other way.
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BushOut06 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 08:18 AM
Response to Original message
49. God planted dinosaur fossils to confuse scientists
I actually was taught that in one of my fundie Sunday School classes. Yep, dinosaurs never actually existed, because the Earth is only 6000 years old. The fossils were planted in the ground to confound science, and to somehow strengthen faith.

Don't ask me how any of that makes any sense.
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ChickMagic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 08:25 AM
Response to Reply #49
50. That's easy
Because god is vicious with his creation.
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SquireJons Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 08:37 AM
Response to Reply #49
53. Don't they blame the bones on the devil? n/t
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ClintonTyree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 05:47 AM
Response to Reply #53
192. Yes.....
Satan planted those bones beneath layers of rock to "trick" believers and test their faith in god. The circular logic these people employ suits them quite well. They no longer have to think about things. They become the passive sheep so loved by the clergy.
Remember, the first lesson in the bible is to "not eat from the tree of knowledge", the metaphorical apple that eve so brazenly coveted. That people take these stories literally is a complete mind-fuck for me. I simply cannot imagine anyone with a mind so fallow. :banghead:
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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 08:50 AM
Response to Reply #49
56. and there are people who believe this shit.
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JustABozoOnThisBus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #49
77. HaHa! That God! What a kidder!
:)
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ClintonTyree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 05:36 AM
Response to Reply #49
191. It doesn't have to make sense.........
that's the beauty of "faith". All scientific data to the contrary the myth prevails in their minds because of "faith". And once a person HAS this "faith" there is absolutely no talking sense to them whatever hard scientific data is offered. That's their "unwavering faith" that they take so much pride in. Nothing can shake their "faith". They wear their stupidity like a badge of honor.
It's so much easier than thinking. It answers (or at least they THINK it answers) every question in the universe so there's no sense in delving any further into the matter. Faith: it's a disease of the mind, truly, a disease and should be classified as such.
And people wonder why I'm an atheist. :eyes:
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #49
205. Oh, that wacky god and his practical jokes.
Gets them every time.
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mwb970 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-31-06 08:37 AM
Response to Reply #49
228. The way they strain and strain to deny reality is almost funny.
Edited on Sun Dec-31-06 08:40 AM by mwb970
Or it would be, if it weren't so damn pathetic and if people with these cockamamie beliefs weren't in charge of everything. Imagine having to believe that your all-powerful "God and Creator" found it necessary to "plant" deceptive fossils, rock strata, and other clues to "fool" his creations into believing something that isn't true. What kind of god would behave so foolishly?

This is the same god who, after creating the entire universe, culminating with the creation of humans, then demands that those humans spend all their time praising him, burning animals to please him (huh?), worshipping him, etc. Why so insecure? He even says that anyone who doesn't believe in him will be condemned to eternal suffering. Would a genuine god need to extort belief while demanding constant praise?

The amazing thing is that many of the people who believe this happy horseshit are the nicest, friendliest people you would want to meet. They just have a screw loose somewhere in the cortex.


edit: typo
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SquireJons Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 08:36 AM
Response to Original message
52. We are the Laughing Stalk... of... the... WORLD!!! n/t
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louis-t Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #52
79. I ..think it's 'laughing STOCK'
but 'stalk' could apply as well.
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #79
216. Yeah, 'stalk' works. We will be a nation of celery in no time
;)
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irislake Donating Member (967 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #52
95. Not really
We understand what you're up against. Just don't let them over the border into Canada. Thank God they seem to prefer the high temperatures in the deep south of the U.S. Something about low temperatures seems to encourage skepticism. Well for one thing you could freeze your balls off in process of being Raptured Up. High temperatures and religious frenzy seem to go hand-in-hand.
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mainegreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #95
138. It's hard to believe in god while you try to get in your ice-covered car
by chipping away at it with your car keys in -20F weather.
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illinoisprogressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 08:52 AM
Response to Original message
57. Fundies being delusional again
These people are plain nuts and getting really really irritating.
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tinfoilinfor2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 09:00 AM
Response to Original message
58. Makes sense to me.
One day it starts raining. The Indians all climb in to their tee pees, huddle up, smoke a little peyote. Forty days later they walk outside: "Holy smoke, Little Deer, look at that hole. Must have been caused by all the rain. Let's catch us some donkeys and start a business. When the white man gets here, he'll be looking for a way down into the big hole."

Yeah, ok. Now I can see it...
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IDemo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 09:03 AM
Response to Original message
59. Somebody forgot to advise the park's website administrator
"Geologic formations such as gneiss and schist found at the bottom of the Canyon date back 1,800 million years."

http://www.nps.gov/grca/naturescience/naturalfeaturesan...

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varun Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #59
170. also from nps website:
http://www.nps.gov/grca/planyourvisit/hike-smart.htm

"...Did You Know?
The Cambrian seas of the Grand Canyon were home to several kinds of trilobite, whose closest living relative is the modern horsehoe crab. They left their fossil record in the mud of the Bright Angel Shale over 500 million years ago...
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DarbyUSMC Donating Member (352 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 09:11 AM
Response to Original message
61. What a beautiful picture. I've never been there but it is my hope to one day
see it. I lived in Roswell, NM for a few months; that's the farthest west I've been. Phooey. I didn't even get to Carlsbad Caverns. However, I do live not too far from Niagara Falls. Some folks have never seen its majesty so I consider myself fortunate. Plus I grew up in the shadow of Letchworth here in Western, NY state.

http://www.homestead.com/Geneseevalley/TheViewFromHere....
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Bob Loblaw Donating Member (159 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #61
81. Thanks for the reminder
of my trip to Letchworth. None of my photos turned out (pre-digital).

I hiked the Canyon about four years ago and don't remember seeing the book in question or the plaques. Anyone know dates on when they went up?
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Beaverhausen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #61
89. You must go! No pictures do it justice
The Grand Canyon is beautiful beyond words. Make it a point to go!
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we can do it Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #61
153. Do Go - It Is Something Everyone Should See - Awe Inspiring
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ClintonTyree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 05:54 AM
Response to Reply #61
194. Hey, we're from the same neck of the woods.
I live in Brockport and both Letchworth and Niagara Falls are always two of my favorite local destinations. We're extremely lucky to live in an area with such diverse natural wonders. Not to mention the Adirondacks and the Thousand Islands area. I DO love New York! :hi:
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The Backlash Cometh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 09:15 AM
Response to Original message
63. Gee, I wonder why the US is falling back in cutting edge technology?
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 09:16 AM
Response to Original message
64. who`s god? move over god of judea ,you a lot have company
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flood_%28mythology%29

"A large percentage of the world's cultures past and present have stories of a "great flood" that devastated earlier civilization."
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northernsoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #64
106. I think it was the flood created by Neptune
as recounted in Ovid's Metamorpheses.

Just as likely as the Genesis narrative.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #64
206. Yep. Myths handed down from the collapse of the ice sheets
12,000 years ago. Over a matter of a few centuries, there would have been few places on earth that didn't experience flooding. And all of those "world wide floods" were local accounts of local floods.
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Cheap_Trick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 09:17 AM
Response to Original message
65. the talibaptists strike again!
:crazy:
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onenote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 09:22 AM
Response to Original message
66. the official govt website for the canyon discusses its age
Doesn't completely square with the statement that the "official position...as to the geologic age of the Grand Canyon is 'no comment'".


http://www.nps.gov/grca/faqs.htm#old

http://www.nps.gov/grca/naturescience/naturalfeaturesan...
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JustABozoOnThisBus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 09:52 AM
Response to Reply #66
72. Thanks for the link
I thought my head was going to explode, like so many.

So the official site gives more "scientific" numbers to the age of things. Is the original link just freaking out about the availability of creationist literature?

My money is still on the fact that the Grand Canyon was carved out in the year 1220 AD by the great turtle.

Regards.

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Lady Effingbroke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #72
94. Nuh uh! The Flying Spaghetti Monster smote the earth with Its Almighty Noodly Appendage!
Ramen!
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ClintonTyree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 06:00 AM
Response to Reply #94
196. Got that right........
with one wave of his noodly appendage the Grand Canyon was created. The red rock formations throughout the area are PROOF that a little sauce from the MSM still remains there today, a constant reminder of his divine noodliness. Ramen sister, ramen! ;)
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Lawrence Donating Member (42 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 09:36 AM
Response to Original message
70. welp
I'm off to Canada. Good luck guys I'll miss you.
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vincent_vega_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 09:48 AM
Response to Original message
71. Huh?
From the NPS website...

http://www.nps.gov/grca/faqs.htm#old


How old is the Canyon?

That's a tricky question. Although rocks exposed in the walls of the canyon are geologically quite old, the Canyon itself is a fairly young feature. The oldest rocks at the canyon bottom are close to 2000 million years old. The Canyon itself - an erosional feature - has formed only in the past five or six million years. Geologically speaking, Grand Canyon is very young. (top of page)


Are the oldest rocks in the world exposed at Grand Canyon?

No. Although the oldest rocks at Grand Canyon (2000 million years old) are fairly old by any standard, the oldest rocks in the world are closer to 4000 million years old. The oldest exposed rocks in North America, which are among the oldest rocks in the world, are in northern Canada

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ChairmanAgnostic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 10:11 AM
Response to Original message
73. When Mary Bomar was in C-Span, I managed to call and ask her about it
first, she denied that any religious books were being sold at the National Park, then she denied that any pressure was put on them by and administration person, THEN, she denied that real science was being abused or sat on.

I was cut off before I could tell her of my most recent trip to the big ditch and of my complaints (personal) about the religious plaques, books and other crap pushing out real science.

She was not a happy camper, to be sure. Then again, nor am I about the the NPS and its positions with respect to the big ditch's origins.

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LaBanty Donating Member (131 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 10:18 AM
Response to Original message
78. oh, for pity's sake
Do the Fundies have to shit on everything in the here and now to keep their fairy tales alive? I'm all for taking them on trips along the canyon rim for a closer look of the supposed flood's handiwork... then pushing them over, and being done with it. (They're so much like lemmings anyway, except not as cute and furry.)

Thank G-d, or somebody, or whoever, that I can make fun of these lame ducks until the cows come home. The minute we're forced to accomodate - no - feign tolerance - for any religious horseshit like this, or somebody else's - is the day I cash in my chips. I am sick to goddamned death of religious freaks fighting over their version of their fairy tales, no matter how wacked-out, and wanting the rest of us to go along for the ride.
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Gundark927 Donating Member (2 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 10:25 AM
Response to Original message
80. Wait just a second...
Edited on Fri Dec-29-06 10:30 AM by Gundark927
The park guide, which you can download from the park website, estimates the youngest rocks at 270 million years, and the oldest at 1.84 Billion.

http://www.nps.gov/grca/upload/2006winter.pdf


Also, the official park website mentions this little tidbit:
"The oldest human artifacts found are nearly 12,000 years old and date to the Paleo-Indian period."

I dont see any mention of the flood or the age of earth being limited to 6000 or 4000 years.

The president and his buddies may have failed science, but the park employees seem to have a pretty good handle on it.


I'm all for pointing out fundie stupidity and bad science, but I will wait to freak out until the PDF download disappears. Going off half cocked makes us sound like those we ridicule.
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BattyDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #80
121. Read the OP again
Edited on Fri Dec-29-06 02:17 PM by BattyDem
"In order to avoid offending religious fundamentalists, our National Park Service is under orders to suspend its belief in geology," stated PEER Executive Director Jeff Ruch. "It is disconcerting that the official position of a national park as to the geologic age of the Grand Canyon is 'no comment.'" PEER urged the new Director of the National Park Service (NPS), Mary Bomar, to end the stalling tactics, remove the book from sale at the park and allow park interpretive rangers to honestly answer questions from the public about the geologic age of the Grand Canyon.


It sounds like park rangers are not allowed to tell visitors how old the canyon is. That's a MAJOR problem! The web site is irrelevant - visitors to the park are not getting scientifically proven information about the canyon because of the extreme, fundamentalist religious beliefs of a small portion of our population. That's wrong.

Welcome to DU! :hi:
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ClintonTyree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 06:20 AM
Response to Reply #80
197. The internets are tools of the devil....
created by Satan himself (in other words, Al Gore) to flood the world with useless facts designed to confuse and test the faith of god's sheep. DO NOT believe anything you read on the internets! God's faithful do not subscribe to the internets, it's another of Satan's tricks.

Do I really need to add :sarcasm: ?
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Torn_Scorned_Ignored Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 10:49 AM
Response to Original message
82. Two Words - Tom DeLay
Furthermore, a book approved by the Service claiming the Grand Canyon was created by Noah's flood ,rather than by geologic forces, is on sale in the park for more than three years, even though a review was promised to Congress and the press. A Freedom of Information request reveals that no review has ever been requested, nor taken place.
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brentblack Donating Member (127 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 11:07 AM
Response to Original message
83. Need of God
This is my personal opinion only, but I feel that once we possessed microscopes to see at a sub-atomic level and telescopes to see past the bounds of our galaxy, the need for a god to explain things evaporated.


Even with the blunders of Iraq and Katrina - this stands out as one of the most asinine actions taken by the boy-king's adminstration...


Gonna shake my head intermittantly all day over this one.
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PreacherCasey Donating Member (717 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #83
96. We can already see past the bounds of our galaxy. eom
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kestrel91316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #83
105. I like to believe that some Creator somewhere created all the
atoms and electrons and quarks and quantum mechanics, and DNA and evolution and biochemical processes. Pretty big, powerful god..........but one that doesn't really have time to micromanage our personal affairs.

I'm weird. I also think it's possible that every quantum particle, if examined closely enough, just might be an entire universe. But that's just me. And my religious views are all kept neatly inside my own head where they won't impinge on anyone else's rights.
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brentblack Donating Member (127 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #105
112. Expressing views does not impinge
Unless of course you are combining the expression of views with phyiscal threats. We should be able to discuss race, religion and politics without insulting or oppressing one another. Of course, we all know that NOT to be the case.


However, I tend to agree that every particle is, unto itself, a universe. I am pretty sure I picked that idea up in a Stephen King book (maybe 'IT'), but even a horror writer creates good, vaild theories.
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Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 11:21 AM
Response to Original message
84. I love the Grand Canyon
It's probably the most amazing natural wonder I have ever seen in person. How it is that we are going back to the days of Galileo, I don't know.
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progressivebydesign Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 11:27 AM
Response to Original message
85. Did I just wake up in Afghanistan? Where did America go? n/t
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seesdifferent Donating Member (31 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 11:40 AM
Response to Original message
86. Ford's Heaven-dential campaign snubs Bush
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NoSheep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 11:45 AM
Response to Original message
87. The Easter Bunny is on line 3.
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PVnRT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 11:56 AM
Response to Original message
90. That book offends anyone NOT a fundamentalist freak
In other words, 75% of the population.
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LanternWaste Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 12:06 PM
Response to Original message
91. And a Freeper speaks.... I'm floored.
I honestly did not think that even Freepers would argue for this, but by golly there *is* a thread about this over at FR.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/1759596/posts

Here's the general consensus (actual quote from thread):

"I don't see why the age of the Grand Canyon should even be a park issue."

Quite a few make that very same point.

:wow: :wow: :wow: :wow: :wow: :wow:

Three'll getcha five this guy's been home-schooled....

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BattyDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #91
116. The age shouldn't be an issue???
Edited on Fri Dec-29-06 02:05 PM by BattyDem
:wow: :wow: :wow:

On edit: When I visited Niagara Falls several years ago, one of the main topics of conversation with the tour guides was the age of the falls and how many years it took for them to recede to the point they're at now. In other words ... intelligent, curious people asked intelligent questions and greatly appreciated the intelligent, fact-based, science-based answers.
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mainegreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #91
139. "Old Faithful: nostrils of satan"
:rofl:
I guess some over there do have a sense of humor.
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irislake Donating Member (967 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 12:07 PM
Response to Original message
92. What must tourists from other countries think?
They must envy your "freedom" from critical thought and enlightenment.
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Mikey929 Donating Member (290 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 12:12 PM
Response to Original message
93. The Onion?
This has to be an Onion story. If true, this is the most F'd up thing I've seen in a while.
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taught_me_patience Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 12:30 PM
Response to Original message
97. further evidence
bush is insane.

:crazy:
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warrens Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 12:42 PM
Response to Original message
102. Gad, I loathe fundies...of all religions
Anyone who thinks any book is 100 percent true is a fucking moron. And an incipient nazi.
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Bill McBlueState Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 12:52 PM
Response to Original message
104. you know what makes this even worse?
Even among the creationists, the number who are "young earth creationists," i.e., they believe the universe is only several thousand years old, is pretty small. Most creationists will admit that the timescales in Genesis are metaphorical.

So this decision was made to placate a tiny but loud minority of extremists.
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progressoid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 01:06 PM
Response to Original message
108. Oh sweet jesus.
:banghead:
:banghead:
:banghead:
:banghead:
:banghead:
:banghead:
:banghead:
:banghead:
:banghead:
:banghead:
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LSK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 01:11 PM
Response to Original message
110. WHAT THE FUCK1!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 01:50 PM
Response to Original message
113. ***From Oct 2005: POLITICAL SCREENING FOR ALL PARK SERVICE MANAGERS:***
Edited on Fri Dec-29-06 01:51 PM by Nothing Without Hope
DU thread on this, Oct 13, 2005 (based on the following PEER press release):
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

The October 13, 2005 PEER press release on this issue:

http://www.peer.org/news/print_detail.php?row_id=598
Public Employees for Environmental Responsibility News Release (www.peer.org )

For Immediate Release: October 13, 2005
Contact: Carol Goldberg (202) 265-7337

POLITICAL SCREENING FOR ALL PARK SERVICE MANAGERS


Mid-Level Managers Picked for Fealty to the Presidents Management Agenda

Washington, DC The National Park Service has started using a political loyalty test for picking all its top civil service positions, according to an agency directive released today by Public Employees for Environmental Responsibility (PEER). Under the new order, all mid-level managers and above must also be approved by a Bush administration political appointee.

The October 11, 2005 order issued by NPS Director Fran Mainella requires that the selection criteria for all civil service management slots (Government Service grades or GS-13, 14 and 15) include the ability to lead employees in achieving the Secretarys 4Cs and the Presidents Management Agenda. In addition, candidates must be screened by Park Service headquarters and the Assistant Secretary for Fish, and Wildlife, and Parks, the number three political appointee in the agency.

The order represents a complete centralization of Park Service promotion and hiring in what has traditionally been a decentralized agency. More strikingly, the order is an unprecedented political intrusion into what are supposed to be non-partisan, merit system personnel decisions.

The Presidents Management Agenda includes controversial policies and proposals such as aggressive use of outsourcing to replace civil servants, reliance on faith-based initiatives and rollbacks of civil service rights. Interior Secretary Gale Nortons 4Cs is a slogan she uses to express her management approach: 4 Cs: communication, consultation, cooperation, all in the service of conservation.

It is outrageous that park superintendents must swear political loyalty to the Bush agenda and parrot hokey mottos in order to earn a promotion, stated PEER Executive Director Jeff Ruch. The merit system is supposed to be about ability, not apple polishing.

The order applies to all hires for park superintendents, assistant superintendents and program managers, such as chief ranger or the head of interpretive or cultural programs. Overall, the policy applies to more than 1,000 mid-level management and supervisory positions in the Park Service.

Presidents come and go but the civil service is designed to serve whoever occupies the swivel chair in the Oval Office, Ruch added. It is downright creepy that now every museum curator, supervising scientist and chief ranger must be okayed by a high-level political appointee.

###

Read the October 11 Revised Procedures for GS-13, GS-14, and GS-15 Selections:
http://www.peer.org/docs/nps/05_13_10_hiring_directive....

Revisit the Presidents Management Agenda
http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/fy2002/mgmt.pdf
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lovuian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-01-07 01:37 AM
Response to Reply #113
238. Ya Know Having people SWEAR OATHS is like
going back into the Middle ages

a person should be allowed to change their mind and say NO
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EvolveOrConvolve Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 01:57 PM
Response to Original message
114. Yea, you can find the book in the bookstore
on the same shelf with the books "The Earth Is Flat! (and other things the scientific community doesn't want you to know)" and "Planet Earth - Center of the Universe?"

Please jebus, I beg, save me from your followers!
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BattyDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 02:01 PM
Response to Original message
115. The rest of the world is laughing their asses off ... and I don't blame them!
It's 2007 (almost) and we're ignoring science because of faith-based beliefs that can't ever be proven? We're a pathetic joke!
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a la izquierda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #115
118. hear, hear. n/t
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NoodleyAppendage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 08:43 PM
Response to Reply #115
165. Exactly. We deserve to have our ass kicked economically with this crap happening. n/t
J
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MountainLaurel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-01-07 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #115
244. Yessiree.
A couple years ago I was in New Zealand and saw that the national museum there had just opened a multimillion-dollar exhibit on evolution. I remember thinking that I would never see such a thing in the Smithsonians.
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Vinca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 02:11 PM
Response to Original message
117. I don't know whether to laugh or cry. 2 more years. nt
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blueButGlad Donating Member (38 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 02:16 PM
Response to Original message
120. Bush: NASA must not "discount intelligent design by a creator.
The NY Times reported that it had been given a copy of a government email telling a worker at NASA that all references to the Big Bang must be followed with the word 'theory'. The directive comes from George Deutsch, a 24-year-old presidential appointee and former employee of the Bush-Cheney campaign. Mr. Deutsch instructed the NASA contractor that the Big Bang was not proven fact; it is opinion and added It is not NASA's place, nor should it be to make a declaration such as this about the existence of the universe that discounts intelligent design by a creator. NASA did not deny the authenticity of the emails. The White House did not respond to NY Times questions as to why this 24-year-old, lacking a background in science, was overseeing the scientific content of work produced by NASA personnel. Mr. Deutsch would resign the following week after Texas A&M University confirmed that Deutsch was not a graduate, despite a rsum stating that he was.

excerpted from feb 3rd entry of www.poorGeorgesAlmanac.com

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KamaAina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 02:36 PM
Response to Original message
122. Coming soon to the Yellowstone visitor center:
"Old Faithful is created by a big fat guy who lives in a cave under the mountain. All day he reads the Bible for an hour and a half, which is why we call it Old Faithful, and then he blows into this big giant steam tube for a couple of minutes.

Please do not throw any junk food down there as this will cause him to belch."
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kenfrequed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 02:36 PM
Response to Original message
123. Idiocy
The stupidity of the fundamentalists never fails to amaze me.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 02:39 PM
Response to Original message
124. wtf?
I cannot believe that park officials, or geologists, would put up with this shit.
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threadkillaz Donating Member (453 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 02:53 PM
Response to Original message
127. Better hurry and wipe the govt websites too. lol.
http://3dparks.wr.usgs.gov/coloradoplateau/lexicon/coco...

Coconino Sandstone
Usage of Geologic Unit Name:
Coconino Sandstone (AZ*,CA*,NV*,UT*)
Coconino Quartzite (CA*)

Age:
Permian, Early*

Early Middle Permian - 275 million years
(age used by National Park Service; Mathis and Bowman, 2005)
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Pacifist Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 03:10 PM
Response to Original message
130. I'm reeling, positively reeling. Again. *sigh*
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Roon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 03:14 PM
Response to Original message
132. I would go to the park and ask every damn worker the age
And I wouldn't stop until I got an answer
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walldude Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 03:51 PM
Response to Original message
136. Bwhahahahahaha...
Yeah we wouldn't want to offend Religious Fundamentalists, they might do something crazy, stupid or embarassing...
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NoSheep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 03:59 PM
Response to Original message
140. Noah twern't nuthin' but a dam drunk and y'all know it!
:wtf:

This takes the Grand Canyon Cake right out of the White Trash Cookbook!!!

:rofl:
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whistle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 04:03 PM
Response to Original message
141. This is complete mind control by a cult group which has infested
....the United States government. Idiots, from the very top the occupant of the White House down through the ranks of every fundamentalist theo-crate who occupies a position of authority in government. It is like "Planet of the Apes", it is a madhouse! The country should not have to endure two more weeks of this, let alone two more years. Impeach Bush/Cheney now.
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #141
144. Bravo whistle
'The country should not have to endure two more weeks of this, let alone two more years.'
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 05:25 PM
Response to Original message
146. The English language lacks words to describe how I feel about this
When will the madness end?
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Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 05:26 PM
Response to Original message
147. Answer questions honestly? During the George Era?
Edited on Fri Dec-29-06 05:26 PM by Rex
I think not!
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Tom Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 06:02 PM
Response to Original message
148. Can they say it predates Strum Thurmond?
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LuckyLib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 06:29 PM
Response to Original message
149. This has happened at the federal level in every field imaginable.
Many DUers have commented that federal "policy" in their areas of work has been altered, tinkered with, and outright recreated to match the * agenda. Websites in my field were scrubbed immediately after Chimpy was inaugurated to remove all research (years of it) that the new federal department could not agree with and that would not support the political agenda. Every field: interior, education, health, urban affairs. You name it, the Bushbots have created their own reality. Now even the Grand Canyon . . .
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Mendocino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 06:31 PM
Response to Original message
150. Geology is wrong, biology , astronomy,..
...archeology, paleontology all wrong, so on, and so on according to fundies. But creationism, which can not prove any of the evidence that it presents, is right, because of faith? ...Sheesh!
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onehandle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 06:33 PM
Response to Original message
151. Al DUers in the area should go to the park and ask how old the canyon is.
Ask and ask and ask.

When they balk, tell them and anyone in the area the science behind the canyon.

Then ask why they couldn't answer the question.

Wash. Rinse. Repeat.
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baby_mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 06:35 PM
Response to Original message
152. ONION ONION ONION

ARRRRRGHH

Fingers in EARS.
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whistle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 07:15 PM
Response to Original message
154. Maybe fundies think they can stop truth, but that does not mean we
...must let them:
<snip>
A Quick Look at Grand Canyon

The Geologic Story at Grand Canyon

Grand Canyon attracts the attention of the world for many reasons, but perhaps its greatest significance lies in the geologic record preserved and exposed here. The rocks at Grand Canyon are not inherently unique. Similar rocks are found throughout the world. What is unique about the geologic record at Grand Canyon is the variety of rocks present, the clarity with which they are exposed, and the complex geologic story they tell.

Two separate geologic stories exist at Grand Canyon. The older story is the one revealed in the thick sequence of rocks exposed in the walls of the canyon. These rocks provide a remarkable record of the Paleozoic Era (550-250 million years ago). Scattered remnants of Precambrian rocks as old as 2000 million years can also be found at the bottom of the canyon. The story these rocks tell is far older than the canyon itself. Mesozoic and Cenozoic rocks (250 million years old to the present) are largely missing at Grand Canyon. They have either been worn away or were never deposited.

<note: a cross section sketch of the Grand Canyon appears here>

The second geologic story at Grand Canyon concerns the origin of the canyon itself: when and how did it come to be? On one level the answer is simple: Grand Canyon is an erosional feature that owes its existence to the Colorado River. Of equal importance are the forces of erosion that have shaped and continue to shape the canyon today. These include running water from rain, snowmelt, and tributary streams which enter the canyon throughout its length. The climate at Grand Canyon is classified as semi-arid. The South Rim receives 15 inches/38 cm of precipitation each year. The bottom of the canyon receives 8 inches/20 cm. The rain comes suddenly in violent storms, particularly in the late summer of each year. The power of erosion is therefore more evident here than in other places which receive more rain.

Grand Canyon owes its distinctive shape to the different rock layers in the canyon walls. Each responds to erosion in a different way: some form slopes, some form cliffs, some erode more quickly than others. The vivid colors of many of these layers are due mainly to small amounts of various minerals. Most contain iron, which imparts subtle shades of red, yellow, and green to the canyon walls. Climate plays an important role in the appearance of the canyon. If there was a higher amount of precipitation at Grand Canyon, the plants and trees that grow here would be very different. The canyon walls might be covered with lush vegetation, rather than the cacti and shrubs growing there today.

How old is the canyon itself? The early history and evolution of the Colorado River (of which Grand Canyon is only a part) is the most complex aspect of Grand Canyon geology. We know that the erosion which has shaped the canyon has occurred only in the past five to six million years. This is only yesterday, considering the age of the rocks through which the river has carved.

Grand Canyon continues to grow and change. As long as rain and snow continue to fall in northern Arizona, the forces of erosion will continue to shape Grand Canyon.

http://www.nps.gov/grca/grandcanyon/quicklook/Geologics...

http://www.edu-source.com/GCpages/CVOpage8.html

http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/help/timeform.html

http://www.kaibab.org/geology/gc_geol.htm

<snip>
Layers of the Grand Canyon Lesson Plan
Overview:
After learning the basics of how the Grand Canyon was formed, students will investigate the canyon's layers and learn about the geologic time periods when they were deposited. They will conclude by writing newspaper articles from the perspective of scientists researching the canyon's layers. <MORE>

http://www.nationalgeographic.com/xpeditions/lessons/07...

That this lesson plan and sit down and explain it to your children. Do not let the fundies control their minds any more. Impeach Bush/Cheney and the rest of the fascists in government for what they are doing to the future of our children, deliberately taking them into ignorance, want and poverty.


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lovuian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 07:58 PM
Response to Original message
155. Geology there is No freakin Geology
Noah floated here and waved

Baaawaaahaaa
:rofl:
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Robeson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 10:45 PM
Response to Reply #155
172. Hey, Repugs don't need them fancy lib'ral 'ologies....
...they got the good book, and that's all they need.
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liberal N proud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 08:03 PM
Response to Original message
156. This from the same assholes who say Saddam was part of 9/11
What do we expect?
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Bernardo de La Paz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 08:10 PM
Response to Original message
157. "A country that dwarfs its people will find that with diminished people no great thing can be done."
Title is paraphrased. Actual quote is:

"A State which dwarfs its men, in order that they may be more docile
instruments in its hands even for beneficial purposes -- will find
that with small men no great thing can really be accomplished."
John Stuart Mill
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AikidoSoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 08:27 PM
Response to Original message
159. All this fundie crap serves a corporate agenda
The more science is trashed, the less corporations have to worry about people respecting the science of chemical injury, global warming, effects of pollution -- etc. At every level science is being trashed... and the sad fact is that many scientists are caving in to a combination of economic / political pressures -- and the growing unpopularity of real science, by selling out to industry.

This administration and its corporate nazis benefit greatly by the trashing of science. Even the Armageddonists help the anti-envirionment agenda of corporations. If Armageddon is coming anyway -- why worry about trashing the earth? Hey... what....? Me worry? I'm a gonna be taken up in the sky and all you bad people are gonna be left behind to rot with the toads... and the nuclear waste. What do I care?
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Ilsa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #159
163. That's right: We didn't hurt you with our chemicals.
Yo were injured because you are a bad person and God is punishing you now rather than in the afterlife, so be grateful!

God, how I hate these people.
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Maestro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 08:34 PM
Response to Original message
160. I thought this was news way back.
I thought this book was already on sale at the Grand Canyon. Is this a second one? The book(s) are ridiculous beyond belief, almost comical.
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Jcrowley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 08:35 PM
Response to Original message
161. Yep
for all ye doubters who will reside in eternal damnation in thine conflagration know ye now that thay Lord hath spaketh and carved thine great canyon so as to hold the mountain of lies put forth by his flock.

K&R
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NoodleyAppendage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 08:41 PM
Response to Original message
164. ENOUGH. To hell with tolerance...now is the time to kick some fundy ass.
We should have ZERO tolerance for this bullsh*t. These religious fundies are DESTROYING our country and dumbing down the populace. If they don't like FACTS AND SCIENCE, then fuck them. Let them live in poverty-ridden trailer parks and on the fringes of society. These people are WORTHLESS in our effort to move our species into a modern era and are counter to the primary importance...the perpetuation of our species.

J
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buddysmellgood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 01:33 AM
Response to Reply #164
185. It's not an issue of tolerance. As you state... it's facts and science. You don't get to
have your own facts.
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Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 09:09 PM
Response to Original message
167. Nobody fucking believes me when I say
there is a creeping theocracy in this country. Now will someone listen?
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madeline_con Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #167
213. The Yurica Report has the scoop...
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-31-06 12:29 AM
Response to Reply #213
223. That is an excellent site!
I don't go there as often as I should.
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BattyDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 09:50 PM
Response to Original message
169. They are offended by science because it's contrary to their faith and their God...
but I'm sure they drive cars, fly in airplanes, use electricity, watch television, use telephones and/or cell phones, surf the Internet, get medical treatment, etc.

Their disdain for science is a conveniently selective. :eyes:
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ladym55 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 09:03 PM
Response to Reply #169
208. Kinda matches their selective literal reading of the Bible
Genesis must be taken literally. Select verses from Leviticus (dealing with homosexuality) must be taken literally. Select verses from Paul (dealing with subservience of women) must be taken literally.

Love of neighbor --- umm, no
Stewardship of natural world --- umm, no
Caring for the poor --- umm, no
Loving enemies --- umm, no
FOLLOWING the Ten Commandments (including the shalt nots about killing and lying) --- umm, no

I am a Christian, and my faith has been hijacked by a bunch of good ol' boy Southern lunatics. GUESS WHAT!! I believe in God and have NO problem with evolution, geology, and science. I also have NO problem with people who don't believe in God or pursue a different faith path ... which I guess disqualifies me as a current American Christian. :eyes:
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LongTomH Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 10:04 PM
Response to Original message
171. we're going to have a real job of "De-Bushification" after 2009
That's assuming we can get an honest election and Bush and company leave office peacefully - both of those are big ifs!
Every department of goverment is infested with these people, who owe their allegience to the Neo-Con and/or Dominionist agenda not to the Constitution.

And you can expect the media, who ignored all of Bush's take-over of government science to rail against the 'librul purge. :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
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Pushed To The Left Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 11:06 PM
Response to Original message
173. Another reason we need to strongly support separation of church and state!
We need to continue to support organizations like the ACLU and Americans United. The government forbidding scientific data in deference to one religion is a violation of the 1st Amendment: "No establishment of religion"!

www.aclu.org
www.au.org
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Danger Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 11:26 PM
Response to Original message
174. You have GOT to be fucking kidding me.
PLEASE tell me you're kidding me.
:spray: :freak:
THIS is the power these fuckers have on our country...ugh...aren't they worried about offending 'non idiots' with their bullshit?
:argh:
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WindRavenX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 11:35 PM
Response to Original message
175. I refuse to believe this. I absolutely refuse to believe this
This is America, not the fucking dark ages-- is this for real?????
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K8-EEE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 11:38 PM
Response to Reply #175
176. Check This Out: 'NOAH'S GRAND CANYON TOURS"
"INTERPRETIVE WALKS/TALKS THROUGH THE CANYONS" LOL guess not enough people did it though.

http://www.tagnet.org/anotherviewpoint/
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WindRavenX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 11:40 PM
Response to Reply #176
177. fuck me sideways
this country has jumped the mfing shark.
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Danger Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 11:45 PM
Response to Reply #177
180. beware the 'evolutionary propaganda'
:rofl:
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WindRavenX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 11:47 PM
Response to Reply #180
181. lawlz. I'm going to be teaching HS biology in Utah...
...I so can't wait for when I teach evolution-- it'll probably result in me getting burned at the stake :eyes:
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aint_no_life_nowhere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 11:44 PM
Response to Original message
178. An insane Chimp has his paw on the nuclear button
A scary thought that sometimes comes into my mind in the dead of night. Who knows what this hallucinating psychopath will do if he thinks it's time to bring on the tribulation and armageddon that Evangelicals look forward to with so much gusto?
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Clarkie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 12:24 AM
Response to Original message
182. This is more important than the hanging. K & R. nt
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NMMNG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 02:12 AM
Response to Original message
187. Screw the fundies
If they can't handle scientific facts then screw them. If they want to live in a world where truth is suppressed so they can live in their fantasy world they can form a commune and live unmolested by reality. They need to stop trying to warp other peoples' lives to fit their BS ideals.
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sofa king Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 03:38 AM
Response to Original message
189. Obviously, my bumper sticker didn't work.
So out with the old:



And in with the new:



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strizi64 Donating Member (192 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 05:47 AM
Response to Original message
193. Christian Fascists aka Talibans n/t
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BlueJac Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 09:18 AM
Response to Original message
199. La la land........
I am sick of idiots.
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LibertyorDeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 06:58 PM
Response to Original message
207. Well you're free to believe in fairy tales but this is
just this side of retarded.

Why are fundies so emotionally retarded?
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Crabby Appleton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 11:08 PM
Response to Original message
210. The official NPS - Grand Canyon site contradicts this assertion
Here

"Geologic formations such as gneiss and schist found at the bottom of the Canyon date back 1,800 million years."
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #210
214. And the letter and the report contradicts yours.
Did you even bother to read it?


In August 2003, the Park Service approved a creationist text, Grand Canyon: A Different
View, for sale in park bookstores and museums. The book by Tom Vail claims that the
Grand Canyon is really only a few thousand years old, developing over a biblical rather
than an evolutionary time scale. That same month, the Grand Canyon National Park
superintendent appealed to NPS Headquarters for a “review of the book in terms of its
appropriateness” for sale in a park-sponsored facility.


In repeated public statements and in response to inquiries from members of Congress,
NPS Chief of Communications David Barna stated that NPS would conduct a high-level
policy review. He distributing talking points stating: “We hope to have a final decision in
February <2004>.” In late February 2004, Mr. Barna crafted a letter which was sent to
concerned members of Congress stating: “We hope to have a final decision on the book
in March 2004.” That draft was rewritten in June and finally sent out to Congressional
representatives with no completion date for the review at all.


In fact, the promised review never occurred. According to responses PEER obtained
from NPS under the Freedom of Information Act, NPS deliberately avoided conducting
the review in order to let the controversy die down. Meanwhile, the Grand Canyon
Association ordered hundreds more copies of the book and offered it for a time for sale
on the internet site as “natural history” (it is now the sole offering in a heretofore
nonexistent category labeled “inspirational” ).


During this same period, a review by Park Service geologists not only found the book
wildly inaccurate but that its sale violated agency policies and undercut its scientific
education programs. On January 25, 2004 David Shaver, the Chief of the Park Service’s
Geologic Resources Division sent a memo (enclosed) to NPS Headquarters calling for
removal of the book, concluding --

***

“Our review of …NPS policies and Grand Canyon: A Different View, lead us to
conclude that this book: does not use accurate, professional and scholarly knowledge;
is not based on science but a specific religious doctrine; does not further the public's
understanding of the Grand Canyon's existence; does not further the mission of the
National Park Service…and finally, that this book should not have been approved for
sale in NPS affiliated book sales.”

***


At the same time, Park Service leadership has blocked publication of guidance for park
rangers and other interpretative staff that labeled creationism as lacking any scientific
basis. As a consequence, NPS staff has no official guidance as to how to answer
questions from the public concerning topics such as creationists’ “young earth” claims.
Further, media inquiries to the Grand Canyon superintendent seeking an official
statement on the geologic age of the Canyon have produced replies such as “no
comment” and referral of the reporter to NPS Headquarters.


Ironically, in January 2005, your Director’s Order # 6 was amended to provide:

8.4.2 Historical and Scientific Research. Superintendents, historians, scientists,
and interpretive staff are responsible for ensuring that park interpretive and
educational programs and media are accurate and reflect currenb]t
scholarship…Questions often arise round the presentation of geological,
biological, and evolutionary processes. The interpretive and e must be based on
the best scientific evidence available, as found in scholarly sources that have
stood the test of scientific peer review and criticism. The facts, theories, and
interpretations to be used will reflect the thinking of the scientific community in
such fields as biology, geology, physics, astronomy, chemistry, and paleontology.
Interpretive and educational programs must refrain from appearing to
endorse religious beliefs explaining natural processes.
Programs, however,
may acknowledge or explain other explanations of natural processes and events.
(Emphasis added)


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Crabby Appleton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 11:36 PM
Response to Reply #214
217. yes I read it
since the NPS website has the correct scientific age and the letter writer says NPS can't give the correct scientific age (yet offers no evidence of this), then obviously the letter writer is lying. They're just complaining about a book they don't like.

Did you read the NPS website. bottom of first paragraph.

"Geologic formations such as gneiss and schist found at the bottom of the Canyon date back 1,800 million years."

the PEER letter writer is incorrect about what the NPS is permitted to say.
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JustABozoOnThisBus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 11:43 PM
Response to Reply #217
218. I agree. There is no problem here.
There's a book about the flood on the bookshelves. Nothing is suppressing other sources with more scientific theories as to the timing and cause of the canyon.

It looks like we're going apeshit over nothing.

Personally, I'd like to get to the canyon and check it out for myself. I haven't been there in years. It would be nice to walk it again. And look at the bookshelves.

Regards
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-31-06 12:13 AM
Response to Reply #218
222. And you didn't read it either.
No wonder they are able to hijack the NPS when people can't even be bothered to fucking read one letter.
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-31-06 01:06 AM
Response to Reply #222
224. Boy, people are in an uproar about this...
What's next, these directives aren't being made by "real" Christians?
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JustABozoOnThisBus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-31-06 08:56 AM
Response to Reply #222
229. Yeah, I read it ...
NPS approved one more book for sale at the store and the website. So what.

It's one book among hundreds. I'd guess that even the "scientific" view changes over time as theories are tested and rejected, replaced by newer hypotheses.

I just don't understand the fury here.

I don't know what criteria NPS uses to approve books. If I ran it, I'd insist that the author walk down to the Colorado River & back, then write the book. Books by people that didn't experience it will be outlawed.
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-31-06 12:12 AM
Response to Reply #217
221. No, you didn't. I just posted parts of it!
They asked NPS to set policy and they blatantly ignored them even when provided proof of their own violations.

THERE IS NO POLICY.
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-31-06 02:38 AM
Response to Reply #221
225. Yeah! nt
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Beartracks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-01-07 02:20 AM
Response to Reply #217
239. More nps.gov stuff
Elsewhere on the NPS site:

"The Grand Canyon is more than a great chasm carved over millennia through the rocks of the Colorado Plateau..." (http://www.nps.gov/grca /)

"Humans have been part of Grand Canyons history for almost 12,000 years." (http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:IvxK3dw72lAJ:www.np... )


And this regarding the age of the canyon:

"The thick sequence of rocks exposed in the walls of the canyon... provide a remarkable record of the Paleozoic Era (550-250 million years ago). Scattered remnants of Precambrian rocks as old as 2000 million years can also be found at the bottom of the canyon." (http://www.nps.gov/archive/grca/grandcanyon/quicklook/G... )


Additionally, from the same page:

"Grand Canyon owes its distinctive shape to the different rock layers in the canyon walls. Each responds to erosion in a different way: some form slopes, some form cliffs, some erode more quickly than others."


The online bookstore has tons of books; buried on page 3 of the Natural History section you find Vail's book.
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-01-07 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #239
241. It's not about their "website". It's about what their rangers can & can't say.
Edited on Mon Jan-01-07 10:48 AM by Bluebear
Read the PEER letter.
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kevinbgoode Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-30-06 11:12 PM
Response to Original message
211. Fu*k the religious "fundamentalists"
I think it is time for the Flying Spaghetti Monster to produce a book contradicting that superstition. . .and for every other superstitious cult to produce something which the government has to sell at the Grand Canyon.

This park belongs to the citizens of the United States of America - not Jerry Falwell.
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SAXMAR Donating Member (247 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-31-06 07:13 AM
Response to Original message
227. New NPS Director No Bush gang lackey
I worked with Mary Bomar (the new Director of NPS) at Independence National Historic Park in Philadelphia when she was Superintendent there.
I was very surprised to see she was appointed Director of NPS. She was the first to make the fact that Georg Washington had slaves when he lived in Phila. during his first term as President part of the National Park program. Mary is nobody's fool! I don't think this fundamentalist nonsense will go on during Mary's time as NPS Director.

Just for the record Mary Bomar was born in Great Britain. It always seemed strange that a Brit was in charge of the Historic sites celebrating the birth of our country and where the Declaration of Independence and Constitution were written and signed.
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lovuian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-01-07 01:33 AM
Response to Reply #227
237. I hope your right but the Pressure has been aplied
Some people think its a small thing but it loses credibility and thats a BIG THING
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Earth_First Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-31-06 09:04 AM
Response to Original message
230. Straight off the pages of TheOnion.com
...Or not.

Yikes!
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-31-06 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #230
231. Not, unfortunately! nt
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-31-06 03:28 PM
Response to Original message
233. Batshit stupid.
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Bryn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-31-06 11:53 PM
Response to Original message
236. Where's V when we need him?
Time to re-watch V for Vendetta Movie
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Voltaire99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-01-07 04:30 AM
Response to Original message
240. Can we just feed them to the lions already?
I mean copies of the new flood book, of course. ;-)
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MisterP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-01-07 08:14 PM
Response to Original message
242. here's the PEER story itself
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lovuian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-01-07 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #242
243. Its pretty obvious that the Thought Police were on a
Creationist agenda and got caught

They are trying to manipulate Science
and keep people in the dark on purpose

Religion seems to be the Great Manipulator of people
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