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Infinite Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 02:31 AM
Original message
My Feelings On Saddam's Sentence.
Edited on Fri Dec-29-06 02:33 AM by Infinite Hope
On his death penalty sentence, my feelings are this: In recent years I have become anti-capital punishment. However, I feel an indifference to Saddam. I hate the thought of capital punishment, but I hate the thought of potential risk of him remaining. I choose to defer to God. I can rightfully be criticized on this point for my indifference. I even criticize myself sometimes for it. I guess the best way to put it is capital punishment is shameful, in my opinion, but this isn't a case I'm going to waste my breath on.

That is the case for many reasons from the damage he did to his countrymen, aided by flawed American foreign policy in the 1980's, and my brother's near death in Iraq last year.
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 02:36 AM
Response to Original message
1. So you choose to be his judge
So be it. As you have judged, so you will be judged, Right?
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Infinite Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 02:42 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. You must not have read the actual post. "I choose to defer to God."
Edited on Fri Dec-29-06 02:46 AM by Infinite Hope
I'm not judging Saddam any more than you're judging me.

I never once said he should be executed. I said it's not something I choose spend my time complaining about.
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 02:46 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. God had nothing to do with it
You chose to judge by your very words. Live with it.
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Infinite Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 02:51 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. You point out where I state that I support his execution. I only see that I oppose cap. punishment.
Seems to me you like flawed logic. By the same flawed logic, you're judging me and are doing so by actions I never took. So perhaps you should view your first comment and heed it.
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 09:19 AM
Response to Reply #4
28. IH, have you thought
at all about the parable of the good samaritan? Who is Saddam? What do you sincerly know to be truthful UNBIASED witness against him?

We here in the US are no more informed (likely less informed) about factual affairs that go on in the world outside our bubble. While I cannot lift Saddam up as a moral humanitarian, i can neither sit silent as this country of ours in its arrogance and ignorance cheers on his murder.

Saddam had nothing to do with your brothers close call- nor does he have anything to do with the lives that have been lost, and forever scarred by this fools war- the one person who actually COULD have stopped it all- the one person who CHOSE to put thousands of men, women, children into this hell hole that has become Iraq is none other than G.W. Bush.

And i would not want him hanged for his terrible deeds. But i would surely want him constrained from ever wielding that kind of power ever again, as long as he lives.

Indefference to the intentional murder of anyone really troubles me- far too many people are using this as an excuse to not be outraged at what goes to the core of their beliefs-

perhaps this is a test- if so, we are failing miserably- and innocents suffer

if we love those who love us, what good is that? it is easy- 'we' get something from it-
to extend mercy to those who the world sees as unworthy of mercy, that is doing something-
It's worth a try- eh?
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jarab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 03:00 AM
Response to Reply #2
6. Please explain your use of "I choose to defer to God".
Do you really mean that in this case you are for the death penalty, and God will sort out man's done deal?

...O...
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Infinite Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 03:46 AM
Response to Reply #6
16. No. I'm against the death penalty. What I'm saying is...
that I trust God to do His will. I'm not going to spend my days complaining and criticizing those who support Saddam's execution because I understand and feel their anger. I **feel** "indifferent" because I fully understand both sides.

**Words are the key. Presuppositions lead nowhere. I appreciate you asking rather than rushing to judgment and misconstruing my words. It's refreshing.

I'm off to bed, Goodnight to all.
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knowledgeispwr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 02:53 AM
Response to Reply #1
5. What?
How is the original poster judging? He/she appears to be withholding judgment.
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951-Riverside Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 03:04 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. No, he/she is just being "Fair and Balanced"
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951-Riverside Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 03:03 AM
Response to Reply #1
7. Stop hiding behind "God"
If you actually believe any of that tripe you sprewed the last thing you would do is hide behind "God".
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Kiouni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 03:42 AM
Response to Reply #7
15. I think he/she is just
Edited on Fri Dec-29-06 03:51 AM by Kiouni
trying to say that any punishment or judging is beyond his/her capabilities and would pass on the decision. The word god seems to be what is upsetting, but keep in mind that christians express themselves outwardly while others (being atheists, buddhists, etc.) express inwardly and the sentence changes as in the wording but not context.
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Infinite Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 03:48 AM
Response to Reply #15
17. Thank you. n/t
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951-Riverside Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 03:59 AM
Response to Reply #17
22. I'm not upset over him/her using "God"
I just find it really disgusting that she/he like most "good" christians, muslims, etc who really don't believe their own BS chooses to hide behind religion.
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dicknbush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 03:04 AM
Response to Original message
9. None of this is legal.....It is a fraud
The entire episode is based on a fraud. THe invasion was illegal the occupation is illegal the trial was illegal and the execution will be illegal. THe fact is that it is going to be another lingering hatred used against the United Sates for years to come. America breaks the law to allegedly enforce the law???? If anything Saddam should have been taken to the Hague for trial. THere is an inter sting little article I read the other day by Harry Shearer. In it he talks about how Gerald Ford pardoned Nixon because our country needed to heal and get over the watergate episode and that a trial would have just aggravated the issue and made it linger even longer while it is necessary for Saddam to be "murdered" forthwith. His point being that in 1974 we and Democratic country for two hundred years needed to get on with life and were not able to stand the trauma of a legal process to convict criminals but a fractured and fragile country like Iraq must proceed with a trial and execution post haste to show how fast they are becoming a Democracy????
Just remember the entire episode is alie and therefor illegal!
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NaturalHigh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 03:10 AM
Response to Original message
10. I won't shed any tears for Saddam.
Edited on Fri Dec-29-06 03:14 AM by NaturalHigh
If it were up to me, however, I would wonder whether a life without parole sentence would not be better. Saddam doesn't deserve to be a martyr for the delusional Baathists who supported him in his spree of torture and murder. If he were jailed for the rest of his miserable life, he would end his days pathetic and forgotten, as a worthless creature like him deserves.

Again, though, I won't be saddened when he swings at the end of the rope. He was tried in a court of law. That's more than most of his victims got.
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pnorman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 03:14 AM
Response to Original message
11. From a strictly "practical" standpoint,
Edited on Fri Dec-29-06 03:21 AM by pnorman
he was NOT tried in a generally recognized international court of law. He was tried under conditions as were determined by a conquering army. It bears a stench similar to that of Stalin's Moscow Trials of the Thirties.

I won't even bother with standard qualifiers like: "Yes, Saddam was a third-grade thug --- but he was OUR thug!". For that fact alone, he'll be considered a "Martyr of Imperialist Invasion" in much of the world. In all likelihood, that's how he'll go down in history. Would that be "worth it"? --- and if so, to WHOM?

pnorman
On edit: I realize of course WHY Saddam could NOT be "tried" in any generally recognized international court of law. There would be NO guarantee of "justice" that way (ie: NO guarantee of a conviction)
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 03:15 AM
Response to Original message
12. Don't hide behind your God, show the principles by which you identify with Him.
If capital punishment is shameful, it is ALWAYS shameful.
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Infinite Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 03:55 AM
Response to Reply #12
20. I agree.
I never condoned it. I'm saying I can do nothing about it and God will do His will on the awful man that is Saddam just as he will to other cruel leaders such as Bush. Whether that means forgiveness (which I am inclined to believe) or not, I'll leave God's work to God.
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 04:03 AM
Response to Reply #20
23. You missed BB's point.
Leaving "God's work to God" is the problem.

If people stopped hiding behind their gods and actually thought for themselves and DID something about it, like I dunno, maybe voting against bush, 3000 soldiers would still be here.

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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 04:07 AM
Response to Reply #20
24. You can do something about it.
You can re-reflect on this case and say 'if I believe capital punishment is always wrong, I must feel that way in this case'.

Being that I am not religious, though, I can't relate to explaining away every worldly occurence as "God's will".
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Kiouni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 03:37 AM
Response to Original message
13. I agree with your indifference
Edited on Fri Dec-29-06 03:37 AM by Kiouni
I too do not agree with capital punishment but at the same time I don't really care if Saddam lives or dies. Like you it simply that his presence in this world has little bearing on me.

My only objection to the process is that the Iraqi people haven't properly established whether or not they want to have capital punishment. If they express support for the death penalty then so be it.
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 03:41 AM
Response to Original message
14. Your brother's "near death" in Iraq last year wasn't Saddam's fault.
Edited on Fri Dec-29-06 03:54 AM by beam me up scottie
It was your fellow christian in the Whitehouse who sent him there.

And all of the christians who "chose to defer to God" when they voted for him.

Not impressed by that argument, sorry, since he sent MY brother there too.
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Infinite Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 03:53 AM
Response to Reply #14
18. I knew this was point was coming and you're largely right...
Edited on Fri Dec-29-06 03:54 AM by Infinite Hope
...though it's partly his fault because he took groups that were already historically divided and violently upheld minority rule. Now, with him out of power, the Sunnis are desperate to retain power because they know if they don't, Shi'a will seek revenge because of the Sunni-led hostility that existed for decades. I know it's indirect and only a small factor in the grand scheme of things, but that's why I mentioned my brother as only one of many factors.
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beam me up scottie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 03:55 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. You're kidding, right?
Your brother (and mine) wouldn't have been over there in the first place if it wasn't for bush.

Saddam had nothing to do with it.
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dave_p Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 04:39 AM
Response to Reply #18
25. Not largely: Right.
"Sunni-led hostility"'s a strange construction, and suggests a search to blame him at all costs. The administration was Sunni-led, as had been the case for centuries. Saddam was a nationalist who used existing power structures. The hostility came from Kurds and Shia, and it's still they who stand in the way of a genuinely national government.

This was a war of choice launched by Bush & his neocon cronies for no valid reason. In blaming Saddam for that you're absolving those at home who willingly put your brother in harm's way to promote their own agenda of plunder and destruction.
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Sapphire Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 03:56 AM
Response to Original message
21. You "choose to defer to God"??? Has there been a Second Coming that I don't know about?
Was God in that kangaroo court? Did God pass sentence upon Saddam?

Defer to God, indeed. Didn't God supposedly present Moses w/the Ten Commandments? Wasn't one of those Commandments "Thou shall not kill"? Or did it say "Thou shall not kill, but you can kill Saddam"?


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Solomon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 05:13 AM
Response to Original message
26. Being against the death penalty means nothing if you get to change
your stance based on how bad the prisoner is. That's what beeing a hypocrit is. If we don't protect the worst of us, then we are protecting no one.

I for one think that Saddam has been over demonized. Yeah go ahead and flame away. I know people really want to believe he's a madman and "evil", but if people can't see now what he had to contend with in running that place, then they never will.

Aren't we now looking for someone just like him, a secular strongman who can maintain law and order in Iraq?

The books I've read say that he was pushing education and health care in Iraq. Is that the work of a madman? Oh yeah, I forgot, my bad, Castro was doing that too, and Chavez. We simply hate those backwards countries that insist on trying to improve the lot of their common peoples. It's downright unamerican.
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Benhurst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-29-06 08:39 AM
Response to Original message
27. Yeah, let's wash our hands of the matter. God will take care of
it. He did a great job doling out justice during the Third Reich.

Maybe, just maybe, if there is a god, He will hold us responsible for sins of commission and omission, even a case such as this.
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