Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

I wonder, how much money are they spending to find those Mt Hood

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (01/01/06 through 01/22/2007) Donate to DU
 
WCGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-15-06 10:26 PM
Original message
I wonder, how much money are they spending to find those Mt Hood
Extreme Mt. Climbers....

They knowingly went into a situation that was dangerous...

They were apparently of sound mind and body....

They obviously knew the risks...

So why is so much public money being expended on these guys...

Don't get me wrong...

I feel for the family and friends of these guys...

And don't bring up the guy who was lost in the woods a couple of weeks ago...

He wasn't out for a thrill...

He wasn't out to tempt fate...

He probably didn't even drink Mt. Dew...

He was trying to save his family...

I just feel that these guys made a choice and knew the risks going in...

Shouldn't they take some responsibility for the outcome of their actions...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
soothsayer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-15-06 10:31 PM
Response to Original message
1. some responsibility...like death?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WCGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-15-06 10:32 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. They knew that going in....
People die climbing mountains...

Perhaps they should make Mt. Climbers purchase insurance to defray the cost of searrch and rescue...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
William769 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-15-06 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #2
13. People have car crashes also.
Should I be ranting when I see a fire truck on the way to a auto accident? You know how much money that involves?

Smart people pick the battles they want to fight, dumb people well...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WCGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 09:45 AM
Response to Reply #13
38. So I'm dumd....
I guess because I ask a ahrad question and back it up with a thought out position, I am "dumb"...

Curious....
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #13
56. Arguably people have to drive to get to places
It is a risk of ordinary life. Usually not thought of as recreation.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
piedmont Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #56
66. No unnecessary activity allowed!!!
It is now verboten!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #13
75. Car crashes are accidents - these idiots went into this situation seeking a thrill...
Dead of winter - on a mountaintop - NOT smart.

A more apt comparison would be to feel sorry for some idiots playing chicken by racing towards each other doing 100 mph in their cars...

It's just like the STUPID TOURISTS that ignor all the signs on Oahu's North Shore that announces that the BEACH IS CLOSED TO SWIMMING because of the high surf. And yet these idiots STILL insist on going in. People who live in houses on the shore have to move into town during the winter to avoid hearing the crys of help and RISKING THEIR OWN LIVES to rescue these idiots because they know they can't sit idly by and do nothing!

THAT's the apt comparison - not somebody ACCIDENTALLY caught in a situation thru NO FAULT OF THEIR OWN.

These idiots CAUSE their own circumstances - sought it out in fact!

That's just plain STUPIDITY.

Same as risking jumping off bridges or buildings - that's why it's ILLEGAL in most places - to protect the idiots from THEMSELVES!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #2
74. They actually to here in Vegas - too many getting stuck in the mountains ringing the valley...
all for the sake of a "thrill"...

And that's as it should be...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Kingshakabobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-15-06 10:33 PM
Response to Original message
3. What a piss poor attempt at flamebait.......
Edited on Fri Dec-15-06 10:33 PM by Kingshakabobo
Back to the drawing board with you..
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WCGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-15-06 10:38 PM
Response to Reply #3
9. It's a question that should be asked....
As I stated down in the thread...

I was in a car accident and was life flighted...

My insurance only paid $ 500.00 of the cost...

I had to pay the rest...

$ 4,500.00...

I gladly paid it...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
spoony Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 04:13 AM
Response to Reply #9
27. Did they ask you for the money up front?
If not, then I'd politely suggest you stfu until they're found one way or another, then you can ask if they should REpay part of the cost.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WCGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 09:51 AM
Response to Reply #27
41. So now I should just STFU....
I marvel at the maturity level on DU sometimes....
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
CaliforniaPeggy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-15-06 10:33 PM
Response to Original message
4. This is a very good question...
However...

I heard on the news today that they left a note in a ranger's station before they started their climb to the effect of how much food and the like they had with them.....

And that was very responsible, IMHO.........

I don't know how much it will cost to find them.......

Or even which agency is out there looking for them......

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-15-06 10:33 PM
Response to Original message
5. You know, I can remember a time when no one would have even thought of asking that question.
It's weird. For as long as I've been alive (57 years), up until relatively recently, it was always just assumed that we rescued people if they needed it. No one particularily debated whether those in need of rescue deserved it or not, it was always just kind of a reflex thing.

But I suppose if social Darwinism is now the norm, it's appropriate to distinguish between worthy rescuees and unworthy rescuees. I know that's not what you were saying, but your question brought these thoughts to my mind.

sw
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WCGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-15-06 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. I'm just asking a question....
I was in a car accident several years ago...

I had to be life flighted...

My insurance wold only pay $500.00 for ambulance care...

I had to pay the difference...

$ 4,500.00....

I had no problem paying for them saving my life...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #7
64. No, you're NOT "just asking a question" and you know it full well.
I'll give you the benefit of doubt and assume you're just stirring shit up for the hell of it in the most crass, offensive way possible.

Because the alternative is worse.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
La Lioness Priyanka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-18-06 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #7
90. if i said "are black people inferior to white people" would you buy that i just asking a question?
many things are implied if not explicity stated by questions we choose to ask...and the way we word them...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-15-06 10:48 PM
Response to Reply #5
14. Yep, welcome to the new "I don't give a shit about anyone
but me" millenium.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WCGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #14
43. How did you get that out of my post....
I never said don't rescue them...

But it is a choice they made to put themselves in danger...

I asked how much money was being spent on the rescue and shouldn't they be responsible for that cost...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #43
51. Harumph! I thought I was agreeing with you that there was
a time no one would have questioned rescuing someone from harm.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WannaJumpMyScooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-15-06 11:21 PM
Response to Reply #5
15. You are right, if rescuers don't go rescue
then when they have to rescue they won't know how.

If people need to be rescued, then we rescue them. That's the game. If later, it appears the victims were idiots, then we deal with that. Not while the poor bastards are up there suffering.

Ugly world we seem to have developed.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AlienAvatar Donating Member (167 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #15
65. Well said
I agree completely.

I haven't yet had a chance to read all the responses, so I apologize if I'm being redundant by bring up another point. Some may bemoan the fact thay an all out effort seems to be given for these climbers while the same wasn't done for Katrina victims, homeless, etc. My response is that an all out response should be given to any and all who are in a helpless and life threatening situation. The fact that this is denied in some cases shouldn't mean that we deny all. We have resources to give aid to all. That Katrina was such a disaster was due only to the almost willful incompetence of the leaders we entrusted to be in charge of such emergencies. It had nothing to do with lack of money or resources.

Maybe these climbers took a foolish risk. Maybe they shouldn't have attempted the climb. I don't know. Maybe, if they return, they should be scolded or even punished, but, right now, the first concern should be to try and see that they DO return.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
marions ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 05:40 AM
Response to Reply #5
29. suvival of the fittest now
callousness parading as "taking personal responsibility"--very Repuglican POV.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Nay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 08:13 AM
Response to Reply #5
33. Yeah, I'm 55 and I can remember that time, too. Now it's every
man for himself, and the hell with anyone else. It's 'they were stupid to go, so let 'em die.' 'They took a wrong turn, let 'em freeze to death.' 'He's overweight, he shouldn't get medical care because he did it to himself.'

I am so sick of this dick-swinging Darwinist bullshit I want to hit somebody. Lots of somebodies.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #33
58. OK, but how far are you willing to go?
How much can other people do that you are willing to be responsible for?

Where do you draw the line?

I see nothing "cruel" or "how dare you even ASK the question" when it comes to recreational activities. Yeah, we should try to rescue them, but what if they die anyway? No lawsuits against the rescuers, OK?

And what if the rescuer dies? That price you seem willing to pay, too. It's not a "game" when it comes to the lives of these individuals. They were trained and they will get plenty of opportunity to rescue people from non-recreational and voluntary activities. Your attitude toward them could be seen as cruel too.

Maybe they just shouldn't be allowed to go mountain climbing.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
piedmont Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #58
67. The rescuers volunteer for the job of rescuing...

"Maybe they just shouldn't be allowed to go mountain climbing. "

maybe no one should be allowed to do anything unnecessary if there's any risk involved at all. The following activities are now on the threat-down:
canoeing
skiing
hiking
riding horses
driving anywhere other than work or the grocery store
surfing
climbing trees


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-20-06 07:24 AM
Response to Reply #33
105. I'm 42, and completely agree with you
This mentality was definitely not how either my parents nor the Church raised me to think of other people. It's very disconcerting, isn't it?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HeeBGBz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 08:34 AM
Response to Reply #5
36. I've noticed that also
I didn't become aware of it until Katrina, when people started saying stuff about how survivors didn't deserve help because they lived in a coastal area prone to flood/hurricane situations.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Midlodemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 09:55 AM
Response to Reply #5
46. I remember the same. People needed to be rescued, they were
and the rest of us cheered that they survived. We've certainly evolved into a rather callous society.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #5
57. Too many of these cases getting publicity
leads to this, but we can assume you are in favor of licensing of mountain climbers, regulation of mountain climbing and someone in authority to prohibit mountain climbers from going if conditions are deemed too dangerous. And are not going to blame anyone who tries to rescue them from doing it negligently or wrong if it fails and they die anyway. In other words, if anybody gets themselves into any situation whatsoever, even if it is their fault, even if willfully their fault due to ignoring signs they shouldn't have taken the risk, then you're imposing quite a burden on society, so society would be reasonable in prohibiting those activities. Mountain climbing should just be illegal.

And sometimes people die trying to rescue others. That's a big cost of mountain climbing. We lose those people due to the risk-taking behavior of others.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
buddysmellgood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-15-06 10:35 PM
Response to Original message
6. It's an interesting line. If I run back and forth across a highway all day, I will
probably be arrested. If I prepare to jump off a bridge into raging waters below, I will likely be stopped. Afterward, my mental health will likely be evaluated.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Aviation Pro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-15-06 10:37 PM
Response to Original message
8. An observation.....
...most of these "extreme" athletes are neither extreme nor athletes. They are very bored adrenaline junkies who add little value to anything.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-15-06 10:41 PM
Response to Original message
10. Oregon has a law that allows charging people who're rescued for the costs.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WCGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #10
45. That's all I really wanted to know....
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-15-06 10:42 PM
Response to Original message
11. You pay the searchers no matter what they're doing. The Army too.
They might as well be working.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
buddysmellgood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-15-06 10:45 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. By working you mean risking their lives.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 07:32 AM
Response to Reply #12
30. The 100th Mountain Division trains this way. It's a good drill for them. nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
buddysmellgood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 09:34 AM
Response to Reply #30
37. Really? They wait for bad weather and high winds to go on training exercises?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Stardust Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #37
63. It's the 10th Mountain Division out of Fort Drum, NY, north of
Syracuse. They get PLENTY of snow, ice, and sub-zero degree weather to train in.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
vincent_vega_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-18-06 09:24 AM
Response to Reply #63
85. And NO mountains (n/t)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #37
69. They train to deal with adverse circumstances. They have agreed to risk their lives. nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
buddysmellgood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #69
78. In that case, perhaps we should pay climbers to throw additional caution to the wind.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-15-06 11:24 PM
Response to Original message
16. Well maybe we can wait until they find their frozen carcasses
And then you can pile on...

about their lack of responsibility...

and so forth...

Maybe we can even sue the estates...

of the dead climbers.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
buddysmellgood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 05:31 AM
Response to Reply #16
28. I agree, their should be a clause stipulating that the families of dead thrill seekers do not have
to pay.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-18-06 08:19 AM
Response to Reply #28
79. Wouldn't be a bad idea. nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
seaglass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-15-06 11:30 PM
Response to Original message
17. I don't know how much something like that would cost but I say
spend whatever it takes. It's just money.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-15-06 11:43 PM
Response to Original message
18. The answer to your question is, we should stop wasting money on Iraq
Edited on Fri Dec-15-06 11:44 PM by Hippo_Tron
What you're really asking is why are we paying to rescue these thrill seekers when we won't pay to save the lives of the 50 million people who don't have healthcare.

The answer to both questions is that when someone is in danger we should rescue them.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
stevedeshazer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-15-06 11:43 PM
Response to Original message
19. Your post has me steamed
Mt. Hood is in my back yard.

We can spend a trillion or so of your tax dollars for a war our president fucked up, but we can't afford to spend a few thousand trying to find some climbers who fucked up?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
knitter4democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 07:45 AM
Response to Reply #19
32. This was on NPR yesterday. We're not spending that much.
Almost all the searchers are volunteers, the helicopters and such are military using this as training exercises (which they would've been doing anyway), and there are very few costs to the taxpayers.

Of course, the larger question is whether we should rescue people, I guess. It sounds like you'd rather take a pass if it's going to be difficult or expensive. The lady on NPR (Dian Ream show, one of the searchers) said that the searchers always have the choice to refuse or back out if things look too dangerous, but it sounds like you'd like to put a litmus test into place. If a human does something too stupid, then no one goes looking for them or helps them. What's your definition of too stupid, then? It's easy to say that this is it, but where do you draw the line?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WCGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #32
40. AS I said in other parts of the thread....
I was in a fairly bad auto accident...

I was life flighted...

Insurance pays for $500.00 for ambulance transport...

I paid the rest, $ 4,500.00.....

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
knitter4democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #40
48. Whoa. That's bad.
You shouldn't have to pay for that. The hospitals have life flight teams as the best option sometimes for trama. Heck, here in Michigan, it's the best option not just for car wrecks but for anything out in the boonies--would take too long to get there by ambulance.

That's stupid.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WCGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #48
49. I didn't mind paying it....
I am alive today...

And I was able to take it as a tax deduction...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WCGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 09:47 AM
Response to Reply #19
39. That's not the point...
I don't want to spend money on the war as well..

I just want to open it up for discussion...

I lived near Mt. Hood for a time...

I saw the majestic beauty of it and marvelled...

And yet, I didn't think about climbing up the hard slope with light weight equipment...

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
northzax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #39
54. so if they had good equipment
you'd be ok with them being rescued?

psst. they had good equipment. Better than what I carried last time I climbed mt hood at least. course, that was in May.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sillyphoenix Donating Member (136 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-15-06 11:51 PM
Response to Original message
20. I don't know about the Oregon law
Edited on Sat Dec-16-06 12:06 AM by sillyphoenix
but New Hampshire (home of Mt. Washington) has a law that essentially states:

Before you leave, answer the following questions:

1. Are you prepared, both knowledge-wise and gear-wise? Are you prepared for an emergency?
2. Have you left plans with somebody trustworthy?
3. Will you turn back if continuing on would be dangerous?

If you or anybody else in your group answers "no" to any of the questions, or if anybody acts recklessly, you pay for your own rescue. If not, then the state of New Hampshire will gladly send out the Mountain Rescue Service, your local EMS squad, or any number of competent individuals to find your unlucky ass... and you won't pay a dime, because your taxes have already covered it!

on edit: That's not to say that the MRS won't go out and rescue you if you've gone and done something stupid. They will, however, joke about you over drinks if you happen to survive.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
madeline_con Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 12:19 AM
Response to Original message
21. Something is screwed up in Iraq...
otherwise, it wouldn't be the "catastrophe du jour".

Just my cynicism showing...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
valerief Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 12:57 AM
Response to Original message
22. Oh, but the story is soooooo valuable as it takes away from
reporting on Iraq. It's as good as missing blonde story.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
valerief Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 01:00 AM
Response to Original message
23. They guy that got lost in the woods decided to drive at night with his
family along remote snowy roads with an impending storm. Duh. I'm sure he was a sweet guy, but duh duh duh.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 01:03 AM
Response to Original message
24. did the hikers request the rescue?
i admit that i haven't really been following the story- isaw today something about them finding a note from them...that said that they had started out with PLENTY of food and fuel.

who was it that initiated the search & rescue? do the climbers even know that people are looking for them? they may be hunkered down in a snow cave, waiting for the weather to break.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
KT2000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 01:14 AM
Response to Original message
25. I think your question is a good one
Besides the money, the rescuers are risking thier lives. A couple years ago a helicopter carrying rescuers crashed on the mountain. Everyone survived but there were injuries.
Have people seen the conditions the rescuers are exposing themselves to? Blizzrd conditions, low visibility.

I am sorry but I don't think that mountain climbers who expose themselves to such risks as winter climbing are heroes and I wish the news would educate people about the real risks involved in this behavior.

That being said, I hope they are rescued soon and are OK.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 03:53 AM
Response to Original message
26. Fairly regular occurence, actually
There was a rescue just a few weeks ago of a family that got lost on their Christmas Tree excursion. We have people who get stuck on rocks when the tide comes in. All sorts of thing. I think the outdoors looks deceptive here, people don't think it's as wild as it really is. Weather systems move in pretty fast too. I don't have a problem paying for rescues, our economy is rather dependent on folks coming here to enjoy the outdoors.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
stubtoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #26
61. Seems like this year has been especially bad for that kind of thing.
.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #26
77. Not the same thing at all...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 07:36 AM
Response to Original message
31. Well, there is the possibility that they may be asked to pay
Edited on Sat Dec-16-06 07:46 AM by depakid
for some of it, in addition to possibly being fined

EMERGENCY LOCATOR TRANSMITTERS (OPTIONAL): There is a $500 fine if a rescue effort is launched for someone without a cell phone or Mountain Locator Unit (MLU). A MLU allows the county sheriff or rescue groups to pinpoint a climber's exact location which can drastically reduce rescue time and resources.

Two things are required for a MLU to work: (1) the lost climber must have it and activate it; (2) the county sheriff must be notified of the lost climber (call 911) to activate their receiving equipment. MLUs are available for rent at the following locations, with only Mount Hood Inn beling local to the mountain:

http://www.summitpost.org/mountain/rock/150189/mount-ho...

(They had a cellphone- but not an MLU. That latter oversight may well cost them their fingers and toes- if not their lives).

I hope I'm wrong, but having climbed that peak- and seen countless Cascade mountain tragedies, I don't expect a good result considering the recent weather and the circumstances.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
The Straight Story Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 08:17 AM
Response to Original message
34. Treat em like we do smokers, jack up their health care costs if they do anything
Edited on Sat Dec-16-06 08:17 AM by The Straight Story
that someone considers risky.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SemperEadem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 08:29 AM
Response to Original message
35. In a lot of search and rescue missions
the family is handed the bill.

They might have a lot of experience and knowledge about climbing, but that doesn't stop accidents from happening. However, after all this time, I seriously doubt that they've survived unless they were overly prepared to survive for over 3 weeks in harsh conditions. Who knows? It would make a heart-warming Christmas story for them to be found alive still, but I don't think that's going to be the outcome.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 09:54 AM
Response to Original message
42. Well if the poor of NOLA were expected to take
responsibility when they had neither the means nor the transportation to leave before the hurricane, then you sure have a point.

Let me prepare in advance :hide: :hide:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Rosemary2205 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #42
50. exactly
I wonder if the OP "just asked" why aren't NOLA residents who willfully chose to live below sea level in a hurricane zone being left to find their own way out. Or are they asking why smokers and fat people are giving lifesaving treatment when they have those heart attacks that cost us all more for health care. Or why parents who got the news prior to birth that the baby was going to have health issues didn't get abortions and save us all that money in disability payments.........
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #50
60. No, a hurricane is not the same thing
Quit pretending it is.

Yes, we know you are superior in your compassion to everyone else. Every last life is of value. Including the people who have to try to make the rescue.

If you were to be treated as you treat others, we might say: gee, I guess the rescuers don't count? They have to risk their lives to make the rescue and you don't care in the least, right? You will go where you please and do what you damn well please and if you run into trouble, other people owe you the risk of their lives, right?

And smoking and being overweight may be somewhat risky but much less so. Over time, the people involved have time to quit smoking or lose weight, or the problem can be managed over time. It's not set all on one day like this.




Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Rosemary2205 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #60
62. Superior?
The logic of the OP is that people who take any risk at all should be responsible for getting themselves out of an emergency related to that risk. Risk is risk. The level of risk doesn't change the logic.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WCGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #42
52. Not the same at all....
These guys went into a situation that they knew was dangerous...

Not the same at all...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #52
53. I'm agreeing with you
Maybe I should have included the sarcasm thingy. Still I think all taxpayers deserve assistance in a crisis, but the most vulnerable among us need the most help.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
area51 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 09:54 AM
Response to Original message
44. How much monetary value can we place on a human life in the U.S.?
Oh, wait, we already do that, thanks to republinazi HMOs and PPOs, since we don't have universal healthcare like civilized countries, and our healthcare is rationed on the individual's ability to pay outrageous prices. This is the anti-life attitude of the U.S. govt. :eyes: </sarcasm>


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 10:12 AM
Response to Original message
47. amazing the lengths we go to save three lives..yet in Iraq..we don't
Edited on Sat Dec-16-06 10:17 AM by flyarm
give a rats ass how many are dying..and i do not say this meaning we should not make the effort..i believe we should do everything in our power to save lives we can and are able to...

i say this, as i have a mother in law, 86 yrs old..and our family is in the fight of our life to keep her alive ..and get her out of hospital and into a rehab to get well..

and yet every day 50+ Iraq's are being killed..their lives snuffed out...

with hardly a mention on the news media..about these people..who are they ...that are dying daily in iraq...presidents of the university..and his wife and daughter..are their lives any less valuable to the world?? or to the people of Iraq..

it so disheartens me to see so little regard for the lives of people in a foreign nation..that we destroyed and now occupy..and so little regard by americans to the loss of life there...

i sit and think..as my family is torn apart right now( hubby on west coast and we on the east coast..we have been doing the red eye express..for 1 1/2 months now..to keep hubby's mom alive)..don't the Iraq's feel the same..when their grandma...and their child, their mom or dad is dying or has been killed for no damn reason..where is our charity of heart..where is our anger..where are our priorities..what do we... as a people.. really give a damn about??

do we care ..i mean really care about our soldiers who are dying at a clip of anywhere between 2 - 10 a day right now??..did they not have the right to live to 86 years old?? and yet now we hear the idiot in chief saying..well.. we will send in 30-50,000 more soldiers in a surge..fuck his surge..the only surge there should be is getting them home in a damn fast surge!

and yet we all sit on our computers and do nothing..when do we take to the streets..and i do not mean in the hundreds ..i mean in the millions..those soldiers are our family..and many won't see their 25th birthday...

but we will fight to save three hikers on Mt Hood...and my family will fight to keep 86 yr old grandma alive..because that is who we are..that is the part of us as Americans i have always loved..

but who really are we???...when we allow children every day in iraq to be murdered in our name..and University professors and their families to be murdered daily in Iraq..and our kids in uniform to die daily in Iraq, so far from home..and no good damn reason for them to be where they are in the first place.....does anyone besides me see the hypocrisy???????

i pray we find those hikers..

I pray my mother- in law survives ( she is a WWII vet)

and damn it, i want our soldiers home now..today..i do not want another to die..not in my name..and not for the ideaology of a fucked up war criminal in our white house!

I want our soldiers to live to the grand old age of 86 ..i want them home now..

we the people voted for that in Nov and we are being ignored..and almost laughed at by the mother fucker in the white house and his cabal of murderers..when do we get mad enough..to say..ENOUGH!!

WHEN DO WE TAKE TO THE STREETS..WHEN THAT ASSHOLE SAYS HE WILL IGNORE THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE?? WHEN HE IGNORES OUR NEW DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED CONGRESS??

OK RANT OVER..YES I AM MAD..AND YES I AM FRUSTRATED..BUT I SEE NOTHING CHANGING..I STILL SEE OUR SOLDIERS DYING .. and the gop making insignificant the Lancent report of 655,000 dead iraqi's

and i still see the mother fucker in our white house trying to trump the congress we voted in ..by putting more soldiers in harms way..for his fucking ego and his legacy..so he isn't looked at as a wimp..fuck that..get our soldiers home..now..

cut the funding now!

fly




Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Dastard Stepchild Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 12:38 PM
Response to Original message
55. I think there are accidents...
for even the most well-planned trips. If these folks are anything like some of my friends (who climb mountains all the time), they probably had their route, their supplies and their plans laid out very well in advance. Some people do such a trip on a whim, but from what I understand, much preparation goes into it. So, when something goes wrong, even if it is in the pursuit of enjoyment or entertainment, I am willing to chip in my tax dollars for their rescue.

But, again, I have a bias because I have friends that climb mountains for sport and should anything happen to them, I would hope that the response would be similar.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 12:51 PM
Response to Original message
59. Giving birth is a risky venture and a choice made by people.
Some of whom aren't even aware of the risks involved in childbirth or the multitude of dangers involved in raising kids.

Just sayin'.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ruiner4u Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 02:08 PM
Response to Original message
68. Reading your opening post im reminded of the movie Airplane!
Edited on Sat Dec-16-06 02:09 PM by ruiner4u
There is a part in the movie where the news show <Point/Counterpoint?> where an elderly gentleman says "they knew the risks, they got on the plane, let em crash"

I agree with some posters down thread that it seems disturbing this that cost assessment issue is even being brought up at this time. If someone needs help, you help them.

And please, no new red herrings, Ive seen enough in this discussion..
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 02:34 PM
Response to Original message
70. You just reminded me of an idiot who asked similar questions
constantly. That is until his darling boy scout got lost in the desert and we had to hump packs an go looking for Junior.

Oh how much we spent?

Let me see, gas for the rig, 20 bucks, caching

Army escort, (don't ask), 3000, caching

Rescue gear on my back

800 bucks Caching


(We were volunteers so there was no pay to us, if there was, well between regular and overtime, you were looking at at least 300 per crewman, we were four)

How much is a human life worth to you?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
B Calm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 02:44 PM
Response to Original message
71. The climbers (if rescued) should repay the tax payers!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 03:14 PM
Response to Original message
72. Hopefully As Much As It Takes To Find Them. May God Be With Them.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 03:20 PM
Response to Original message
73. Yep - I couldn't agree more...
Less likely contributors to the "jean" pool!

Sorry, these idiotic thrill seekers brought it all on by themselves.

They are "adults"

They can pay the consequences of their foolish actions WITHOUT endangering the lives of those who are trying to rescue them.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
QuestionAll... Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 03:30 PM
Response to Original message
76. that's so a bullshit statement at so many levels..
that's been foisted on us all.

$$ .
that's all it's all about.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cwydro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-18-06 08:57 AM
Response to Original message
80. Why are so many on DU
suddenly against search and rescue? Why do we even have SAR if we should just let people die? How about swordfisherman out in the worst weather" Dangerous job, do they deserve to die? How about construction workers? What if something happens on the space station? Oh well...too bad, let 'em die because that is just ridiculous to take those risks.

No doubt back in Magellan's day, there were people who sat at home and scoffed at adventurers...who figured they got what they deserved.

I am appalled at the callousness I have seen here lately. God forbid any of these men's families are members of DU. Sheesh.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-18-06 08:59 AM
Response to Reply #80
81. Everything seems to be a matter of dollars & cents
And people upset that these guys got coverage because they are "rich and white", as though that precludes suffering. I don't get it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
xultar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-18-06 09:26 AM
Response to Reply #80
86. No shit. This is crazy. There must be something strange underfoot.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Marie26 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-18-06 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #80
91. The same progressives
Edited on Mon Dec-18-06 02:19 PM by Marie26
that presumably support Medicaid, Social Security & other gov. programs for people in need? Beats me.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cwydro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-18-06 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #91
95. Very interesting take on it.
Had not thought of it in those terms. Very good.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LanternWaste Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-18-06 09:17 AM
Response to Original message
82. Probably quite a bit
Probably quite a bit of money. Expenditures like this almost make me feel as though we're doing a pretty good job sometimes with how we spend it.

Attempting to save lives-- all in all a pretty good use of tax revenue in my opnion.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
moondust Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-18-06 09:19 AM
Response to Original message
83. Two Blackhawks, one Chinook, one C-130 and
60 rescuers has gotta add up pretty fast.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Puglover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-18-06 09:22 AM
Response to Original message
84. Um...
What is...

with all...

the ellipses...?


Just askin.

:shrug:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sniffa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-18-06 09:29 AM
Response to Reply #84
87. it makes.....
beautifuL.........

poetry..........

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-18-06 09:31 AM
Response to Reply #87
88. That's how...
it struck....


me.....


ouch....
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
La Lioness Priyanka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-18-06 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #88
89. you guys....
are so...

funny..

saying we may spend too much money...

on rescuing people however...

is much less funny...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Pithlet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-18-06 02:25 PM
Response to Original message
92. It is worth every penny
to have trained people that can fish any of us out of life threatening situations, whether they're deemed our fault or not. It's nice to know they're there for me and my family. Hopefully, we won't ever need it, but even if we don't, I don't begrudge a penny of it, ever. It's well worth it to live in a society where we don't just leave people on their own to die. I'm not going to whine and complain about that money just because the people being rescued aren't people I personally know or care about. They could one day be people I care about. I wouldn't want them condemned because some consensus was reached by a hardened society hell bent on saving a few bucks.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
La Lioness Priyanka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-18-06 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #92
93. excellent post
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-18-06 02:39 PM
Response to Original message
94. Money, money, money.....
Just how much is one life worth? Shall we make that judgment before expending your precious tax dollars?

The climbers have probably already taken "responsibility."
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Timmy5835 Donating Member (325 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-18-06 03:26 PM
Response to Original message
96. You ALL seem to be forgetting...........
The Forest Service did not tell them NOT to climb.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
La Lioness Priyanka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-18-06 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #96
99. you seem to forget...that liberals are supposed to be compassionate
unlike asshole conservatives...just sayin
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Blue Belle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-18-06 04:23 PM
Response to Original message
97. How much do we spend each time Bush takes Air Force One out on a photo op tour?
Everyone is bitching about how much this is costing, but no one blinks an eye when Bush gasses up the jumbo jet and campaigns for his rubberstamping congress croanies on our tax dime... or goes on listening tours/ town hall meetings... or meaningless photo ops.

At least we know that the money being spent in this instance is going to toward trying to save a life.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-18-06 04:29 PM
Response to Original message
98. Probably less than we spend on healthcare for fat addicts.
And for smokers.

And for people on mototcycles.

Care to go on?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MazeRat7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-18-06 05:50 PM
Response to Original message
100. Got a lot of "wondering" time on your hands do ya....???
Why do people climb mountains.. because they are there. Why does the MSM make this news, because we live in a society that loves survivor, american idol, and any other sort of "Springer-ish" outrage they can find.

As an ex-climber that was "rescued"... trust me and take this time to learn a few things about this issue...

First, you are surprised to be alive because something "unplanned" went terribly wrong.
Second, you have a lot of bills to pay for those services that you didn't already pay for with your taxes....

Not to mention that most of our clan are far more in-tune with environmental issues than than 99% of the posters here in DU. After all, we live to be in the wilderness free from the human foot print.

So unless you are a climber, back-packer, wilderness-type person, I would suggest keeping your pie-hole shut.

If of the other hand, you have extensive experience in wilderness adventures, then perhaps we can talk about the pros/cons of taking this specific trip.

MZr7










Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Raine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-18-06 05:51 PM
Response to Original message
101. A fraction of what is being spent
on the war in Iraq, I can guarantee you that! This kind of post makes me :puke:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-18-06 06:12 PM
Response to Original message
102. Freeper thread on this:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1754967/posts

Rather interesting.

Looks like various DUers and Freepers may actually agree.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-18-06 06:16 PM
Response to Original message
103. I'd rather spend the money on them saving a life
and not taking one.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tony_Illinois Donating Member (590 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-18-06 06:18 PM
Response to Original message
104. You Are Better Than This
And I hope you are just attempting to be provocative in your post.
Hey, people who live near the Gulf Coast know that hurricanes might hit, right, so why should the government do anything to help them when one does?
People know that living in California carries the risk of earthquakes, so why should we do anything to help them when they happen?
People who fly know a plane might go down, right, ...
Climbing the mountain was not illegal.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Tue Oct 21st 2014, 05:38 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (01/01/06 through 01/22/2007) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC