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Jcrowley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-15-06 11:34 AM
Original message
Can You Smell It Yet? National ID Cards Coming Up
Homeland Security chief defends Real ID plan
By Anne Broache, CNET News.com
Published on ZDNet News:December 14, 2006, 12:01 PM PT

WASHINGTON--U.S. Department of Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff on Thursday defended forthcoming national ID cards as vital for security and consistent with privacy rights.

Chertoff said one of his agency's top goals next year is to forge ahead with recommendations for the controversial documents established by a federal law called the Real ID Act in May 2005. By 2008, Americans may be required to present such federally approved cards--which must be electronically readable--to travel on an airplane, open a bank account or take advantage of myriad government services such as Social Security.

"I think this is an example (of) when security and privacy go hand in hand," the Homeland Security chief said in a half-hour speech at George Washington University here. "It is a win-win for both."

The importance of such documents was magnified by an announcement Wednesday, Chertoff said. Federal authorities reported that they had made more than 1,200 arrests related to immigration violations and unmasked criminal organizations stealing and trafficking in genuine birth certificates and Social Security cards belonging to U.S. citizens.

http://news.zdnet.com/2100-1009_22-6143862.html

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ChairmanAgnostic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-15-06 11:39 AM
Response to Original message
1. this man must be stopped.
This offers no more security, but destroys our privacy
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Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-15-06 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #1
37. How CAN he be stopped? Even death hasn't slowed him down.
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Left Is Write Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-15-06 11:43 AM
Response to Original message
2. Your papers, please.
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-15-06 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #2
6. "Ihre Papiere, bitte." It sounds more appropriate in the original.
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AdHocSolver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 12:50 AM
Response to Reply #2
40. Forget papers: If you carry an RF ID chip, they can monitor you from a distance
Edited on Sat Dec-16-06 01:17 AM by AdHocSolver
People don't understand the technology. The RF ID chip contains circuitry that responds to a signal from a transceiver that could be hundreds of feet or more away. The remote tranceiver sends a microwave pulse to the RF ID chip that energizes it. The RF ID chip encodes a message and uses the residual energy from the initial burst to transmit its data back to the originating transceiver. The returned signal is in microwatts, but can be received hundreds of feet away because of the high sensitivity of the equipment involved. Theoretically, if not already doable, an aircraft flying 2,000 feet overhead could scan a crowd and identify everyone in it.

There is worse. Anyone with access to the equipment and the encoding used can get the same information. Since this equipment will be manufactured by private corporations and we here are all aware of the problems with security and electronic voting machines... You get the picture?

There is more. Many of the newer cars use transponder keys. It is a key with an RF ID chip in it that you need to be able to start your car. A key without the chip will open the doors and turn on your ignition, but won't let the car's computer start the engine. The supposed value of this is that it will reduce car thefts. Aside from the fact that the dealers rip you off by charging $40.00 or more for an extra key (the nicer ones), an engineering professor has already shown how easily this can be defeated. He developed several gadgets. One was a key reader that could read the key codes while the key was in the owner's pocket while the person was several feet away. Then he transferred the codes to a blank RF ID key using a programmer similar to what the dealer uses. He was able to start the test car with it. (Obviously the key would have to be cut to turn the ignition switch.)

The point is RF ID chips in cards or people would make it EASIER to steal one's identity as this could be done surreptitiously from a distance. The ONLY value in these chips is that it makes it easier for anyone with the expertise and access to equipment to spy on people.

As an afterthought, if you aren't already scared enough, the farther away the RF ID chip is from the scanning transceiver, the higher power pulse that would be needed to energize the chip (several watts). Wide spread use of scanners could subject people to frequent exposure to microwave energy, similar to what cooks your food in a microwave oven. Health risks are unknown at this time, but I would suspect that cumulative exposure would not improve one's health.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-15-06 11:44 AM
Response to Original message
3. "It's always something" Gilda Radner
I see you have more great news for us. sigh..

Thank you for alerting us to all this... it just never stops.

:pals:

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Jcrowley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-15-06 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #3
9. Notice this?
The importance of such documents was magnified by an announcement Wednesday, Chertoff said. Federal authorities reported that they had made more than 1,200 arrests related to immigration violations and unmasked criminal organizations stealing and trafficking in genuine birth certificates and Social Security cards belonging to U.S. citizens.

When I mentioned this in another thread of course several folks refused to see the connections and considered it paranoid or some such manner of denial:

"The only way to find the illegals is....????

Everyone must prove their innocence or they will be presumed guilty. Everyone. Everyone must be stopped. Everyone must show papers. Everyone must justify their very existence to any law enforcement officer at any time.

But how? What would prove that one was innocent? Documents? What sort of documents? The more draconian the sweeps, the more incentive to create false documents and the better the false documents will get. The better they get, the harder for law enforcement or employers to know the difference, which will lead to calls for MORE comprehensive and intrusive police work. The more comprehensive and intrusive the police work, the more people will resist.

This "problem" as people are imagining it, is not solvable. This is all a pretext to put all of us under more control and to threaten and intimidate us."

I've noticed that the more optimistic people are, the more petty and egotistic they tend to be -- Anna Semyonovna in her final letter to her son Viktor Pavlovich Shtrum before she was executed by the Nazis for the alleged crime of being Jewish, this in Part One of Vasily Grossman's epic and reality-based Life and Fate, arguably the finest Russian novel of the 20th Century.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-15-06 10:13 PM
Response to Reply #9
38. I'm afraid to guess just how much the "Murkin people will tolerate.
I've come to the conclusion that it won't halt unless/until the bulk of the citizenship say "HALT!"

:(

Thanks for your faithfulness in all this. I hope you are spreading this widely.

Given what I'm struggling with, there is only so much I can do with these other issues, but you have been so supportive of me, and I want to do what I can to further your efforts!

Thanks! :hi:
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TechBear_Seattle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-15-06 11:45 AM
Response to Original message
4. And certain groups will be required to wear other identification on their lapels
I'm a gay atheist liberal. Does that mean a pink, black or red triangle?
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WannaJumpMyScooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-15-06 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #4
22. all three, and a rainbow
too.
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Bobbie Jo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-15-06 11:49 AM
Response to Original message
5. Hmmmm...next stop?
Permanent tattoos on our right hands? :evilgrin:
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IDemo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-15-06 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. better yet....
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Jcrowley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-15-06 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #7
14. I was reminded
of a Twilight Zone episode which I think was called 'Pets' and the humans are the ones who are the pets. Pretty breathtaking how willingly folks play along and how the issues will be mistakenly seen as separate when the whole system is staring them right in the face. I guess it's called compartmentalizing.

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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-15-06 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. Nest stop....
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solara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-15-06 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #5
10. Nawwww. Bar codes on our foreheads
:hide:
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iconoclastic cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-15-06 12:09 PM
Response to Original message
11. New! Mark-o-the-Beast footwear! nt
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flying_wahini Donating Member (856 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-15-06 12:20 PM
Response to Original message
12. notice that they didn't mention that (my guess) they will put in
chips to find us when we bail for Canada..... of course,
'homing chips' are already being put in our passports.
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bullimiami Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-15-06 12:25 PM
Response to Original message
13. i dont have a problem with national id per se.
they could combine drivers license, voters registration and Photo ID all into one national card.
additionally you could get hunting/fishing license endorsements on it and whatever else you might need a governmental ID for.
and they would be uniform for the entire country.

Of course I dont believe it should be mandatory to carry it unless you are driving. ie no 'show me your papers" but they can do that with the id we carry now.


what is the problem exactly?
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timetoleave Donating Member (34 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-15-06 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. The problem, as I see it...
is that it could be a first step. Maybe I am paranoid but it seems a good way to track people, label people and for what use might that be used in the future, those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
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MonkeyFunk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-15-06 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. but we already all have
social security cards, many of us passports, most of us state ID cards.

I don't see a major difference, provided it's just an ID card and not a tracking device.
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BlackVelvet04 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-15-06 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #15
39. The first step and clue
was when they named it "Homeland Security".

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Jcrowley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-15-06 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #13
20. There's alot wrong with this
Recommended reading:



SPYCHIPS: How Major Corporations and Government Plan to Track
Your Every Purchase and Watch Your Every Move
Our award-winning book, now revised, updated, and available in paperback!



"To live in this process is absolutely not to be able to notice it - please try to believe me - unless one has a much greater degree of political awareness, acuity, than most of us had ever had occasion to develop. Each step was so small, so inconsequential, so well explained or, on occasion, "regretted," that, unless one were detached from the whole process from the beginning, unless one understood what the whole thing was in principle, what all these "little measures" that no "patriotic German" could resent must some day lead to, one no more saw it developing from day to day than a farmer in his field sees the corn growing. One day it is over his head.

http://www.thirdreich.net/Thought_They_Were_Free.html

Your trust in our government is admirable.


May 18, 2006

VERICHIP INJECTS ITSELF INTO IMMIGRATION DEBATE
Company Pushes RFID Implants for Immigrants, Guest Workers

Scott Silverman, Chairman of the Board of VeriChip Corporation, has alarmed civil libertarians by promoting the company's subcutaneous human tracking device as a way to identify immigrants and guest workers. He appeared on the Fox News Channel earlier this week, the morning after President Bush called for high-tech measures to clamp down on Mexican immigrants.

Privacy advocates Katherine Albrecht and Liz McIntyre are warning that a government-sanctioned chipping program such as that suggested by Silverman could quickly be expanded to include U.S. citizens, as well.

The VeriChip is a glass encapsulated Radio Frequency Identification tag that is injected into the flesh to uniquely number and identify people. The tag can be read silently and invisibly by radio waves from up to a foot or more away, right through clothing. The highly controversial device is also being marketed as a way to access secure areas, link to medical records, and serve as a payment device when associated with a credit card.

"Makers of VeriChip have been planning for this day. They've lost millions of dollars trying to sell their invasive product to North America, and now they see an opportunity in the desperation of the people of Latin America," Albrecht observes.

http://www.spychips.com/press-releases/verichip-immigra...
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-15-06 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #13
24. The problem is exactly a highly secretive government
that prefers as little oversight of its actions by those who's interests the government is supposed to represent. Which is an invitation to abuse of power - of which we've seen quite a bit already.

By the government's own standards ("the innocent have nothing to hide") this government looks guilty as hell.
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Oldenuff Donating Member (442 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-15-06 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #13
36. What's wrong with the ID cards?

It's another step down the ladder into the abyss.What's that old adage about the frog in hot water?Total control oer the population has to be taken in small steps to avoid "alarming" the sheeple.Same with the joining of countries into "unions".Sounds to me like a simple measured steps to the One World Government.If we don't speak out,it will happen all the sooner.

I can imagine the Forefathers of our country are spinning in their graves...Shame on us if we don't do anything about it.
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bullimiami Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 08:43 PM
Response to Reply #36
42. i understand everyones distrust but I think its a good idea in principal.
the trouble is, as always, in the exploitation by those who dont have freedom and democracy in mind.

rfid chips could just as easily be implanted in your state DL or passport, or in your credit cards or anything. it wouldnt take a national id card.

i think the 50 different drivers licenses or state ids plus seperate voters registrations have become outdated.

there SHOULD be one uniform national id/voter registration with photo and whatever other metrics theywant which can also carryyour drivers endorsement.

we need the government to implement it fairly and honestly, as with anything else.
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semillama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-15-06 12:36 PM
Response to Original message
16. Great photo, btw
I remember the first time I came across a photo of schoolchildren saluting a flag that way. Initially disturbing, until I learned that this salute was actually the inspiration of the Nazi salute, not the other way around.
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hopein08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-15-06 12:39 PM
Response to Original message
17. Does anybody have a list of Democrats who voted for Real ID?
I'd like to see to because that just might be my new criteria for who NOT to vote for in the 2008 presidential election.

Thanks!
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timtom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-15-06 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #17
32. Go to this link and weep

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/vote.xpd?vote=h2005-31

I'll tell you one who DIDN'T vote for it:

Dennis Kucinich
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AllieB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-15-06 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. The Whole Congressional Delegation from MA voted NAY
I'm proud of them!
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mia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #32
41.  Miami area Republicans voted against it.
Good for them!

Florida
Aye FL-1 Miller, Jeff
Aye FL-2 Boyd, F.
Nay FL-3 Brown, Corrine
Aye FL-4 Crenshaw, Ander
Aye FL-5 Brown-Waite, Virginia
Aye FL-6 Stearns, Clifford
Aye FL-7 Mica, John
Aye FL-8 Keller, Ric
Aye FL-9 Bilirakis, Michael
Aye FL-10 Young, C. W.
Aye FL-11 Davis, James
Aye FL-12 Putnam, Adam
Aye FL-13 Harris, Katherine
Aye FL-14 Mack, Connie
Aye FL-15 Weldon, David
Aye FL-16 Foley, Mark
Nay FL-17 Meek, Kendrick
Nay FL-18 Ros-Lehtinen, Ileana
Nay FL-19 Wexler, Robert
Nay FL-20 Wasserman Schultz, Debbie
Nay FL-21 Diaz-Balart, Lincoln
Aye FL-22 Shaw, E.
Nay FL-23 Hastings, Alcee
No Vote FL-24 Feeney, Tom
Nay FL-25 Diaz-Balart, Mario
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blues90 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-15-06 12:48 PM
Response to Original message
19. Don't like it , don't trust them
I don't have anything to hide but already your drivers license has a strip in it and they claim a tracking antenna , can't say this is true . The cards you use at the super market to save money tracks everything you buy . Credit cards now know if you sent money to candidate funds , mine showed a special box with the exact amount . Our cell phones can be used to track us . We have cameras watching us even on some streets .

I see these show like MI-5 and born identity and I see these as real issues and probably not far from reality .

We are in big brothers world now and I don;t see it going away , I am only glad I don;t have that much time left to see the end result of this horror , long enough to endure the effects for possibly 15 or 20 years to come and as far as I know things can only get worse and speed up each year .

They are still building their super highway and camps but little is said about this anymore but it goes on .
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Patiod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-15-06 01:04 PM
Response to Original message
21. I say we incite the fundies in this one!
No way will they go for this
666!!!
The mark of the beast!!!

See - fundies have their uses!
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Jcrowley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-15-06 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. It's true


http://www.christianityoasis.com/EndTimes/Biometrics.ht...

My oldest brother is one of these end-timers. In our last conversation he was all over this issue and we agreed on it but from very different perspectives and for different reasons. That's okay though. Fortunately he's mellowed a bit and doesn't try to preach any longer.
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cascadiance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-15-06 02:11 PM
Response to Original message
25. Just applied for my passport today...
Edited on Fri Dec-15-06 02:13 PM by calipendence
Hoping to get mine back before the end of the year, and before they get RFID chips in it. Would have gotten it earlier if I hadn't misplaced my birth certificate, which I just found a week ago.

Keeping my fingers crossed!

Does anyone know if the newer passport covers have lead or some other material to block people from scanning your chip from a distance?

I've heard a lot of people postulate about things such as spammers, telemarketers or others scanning you in a crowd if you have it on you, and perhaps even a terrorist in an airport scanning to see how many Americans he has around him before he gets to a certain number and then setting off a bomb. I don't want to be one of those targets...

If we had ways of blocking distant scanning with a shielding cover, etc. then at least we don't have to worry as much about people grabbing our identity from a distance. Of course, that's not all of the concerns of these things, but blocking people from scanning it without our consent would be helpful for starters.
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Scriptor Ignotus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-15-06 04:39 PM
Response to Original message
26. we can fight this
but it seems inevitable. as the world's lone superpower terrorism is the only method our enemies have for attacking us. therefore, the only way to protect ourselves will be intrusive measures like this.

if there's a way to do it without being too Orwellian, I'd be for it. Problem is, I can't think of a way to do it like that.
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-15-06 04:46 PM
Response to Original message
27. Opening a bank account is the one that bothers me
Banks are private businesses, after all. They ought to be allowed to take whatever customer they choose.

The terra scare and the ID theft scares are put forth to justify this. In a free country, we choose them by election to carry out the job of governing, once they give them the right to number us all and count us all and follow us throughout life, and to count us as nonexsitent if we don't come up with the ID, then we've turned our "rights" over to the government to grant them to us at its will.

There's something bigger and more dangerous about this than appears on the surface and it is very hard to explain or relate. There may be some illegal immigrants and some fraudulent claims, but is the harm that causes so bad we can't tolerate it to some length, to preserve the general philosophical basis of our freedom?

I'm afraid this will go down too easily with the sheeple; most of them just don't see what's wrong with it, and it's difficult and abstract to try to explain. Maybe the only hope is to find people who lived in countries with internal passports and publicize their descriptions of what it is like to illustrate precisely what it reflects.

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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-15-06 04:50 PM
Response to Original message
28. When I lived in Chile, pre Pinochet, everyone was required to
have a national I. D. card. Since Chile then was one of the few democracies in South America, no one really thought much about it. You could be stopped by the police in the middle of the street if they wanted to check your I. D. even if you had done nothing. It was a matter of course action by the police that startled Americans accustomed to being pulled over only if they had broken a law like running a red light.

But the police could and did stop you if you looked foreign or otherwise suspicious to verify you were legally there. You didn't have to have committed a violation of any sort. Like I said no one thought much about it back then because the police as a whole didn't abuse their power.

However, after the coup when Pinochet and his supporters overthrew the legitimate government of Chile did the little fascist practices that were there during the democracy come to a head. I'm sure the national I. D. cards facilitated their rounding up any one they thought was a communist and against the new regime. Torture was a fairly standard practice in jails and prisons to get information on criminal gangs, but now they were getting information on fellow citizens for political reasons.

This is why we should never allow this to happen here, no matter how they try to sell it as a more efficient way to keep track of legal residents. It's that very efficiency that will be used against you, should this government fall into the hands of fascists again.
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-15-06 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. I wonder if Americans would put up with being stopped for no
reason - are they really that concerned about the presence of illegal aliens? I just don't find that so scary that I want the cops to be able to stop me for no reason.

And of course when they can stop you just to ask for your ID, then they can stop whoever they want, and that means they can stop blacks more often than whites, etc.

The hispanic population by definition would get harassed for it more than others; many hispanics are citizens of the US but have the Spanish background that will give the cops more "cause" to need to see their ID - I imagine this would be a problem for Americans of Asian and Middle Eastern descent too.

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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-15-06 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. Like I said it used to startle Americans who had to show their
visitor's permits, visas and passports in lieu of the Carnet as it was called. But these are some of the surprises you encounter when traveling abroad. However, since most of the police were on foot, we used to play a game of turning up a street when we saw one that was getting ready to flag us over. Since we had wheels they couldn't chase us.

And you are right the system is ripe for abuse. The fact that prior to Pinochet, it wasn't abused in Chile very much (it would have been gossiped about if this was true) seems almost like a miracle to me now.
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-15-06 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. Complying with it there because that is the way they do it there
and finding it startling because we never do it here - but what about actually complying with it here? IOW, most people in the US will say what's the big deal while discussing it possibly happening in theory, but when it comes down to it, will they really want to stop any time to show their ID?

Hopefully we are too used to not having to.
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Jcrowley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-15-06 06:59 PM
Response to Original message
33. Real ID requires the states to link their databases together


2. Stolen Identities.

Our new IDs will have to make their data available through a "common machine-readable technology". That will make it easy for anybody in private industry to snap up the data on these IDs. Bars swiping licenses to collect personal data on customers will be just the tip of the iceberg as every convenience store learns to grab that data and sell it to Big Data for a nickel. It won't matter whether the states and federal government protect the data - it will be harvested by the private sector, which will keep it in a parallel database not subject even to the limited privacy rules in effect for the government.

3. Government Spying.

Real ID requires the states to link their databases together for the mutual sharing of data from these IDs. This is, in effect, a single seamless national database, available to all the states and to the federal government.

4. Papers, Please.

If Real ID passes the Senate, our nation will join the ranks of the old Soviet Union, Communist China, and Vietnam by issuing its citizens a national ID card. The Machine Readable Zone may come in the form of a 2-dimensional bar code - but the Department of Homeland Security, which will be crafting the regulations implementing Real ID, has made clear that it would prefer to see a remotely readable RFID chip. That would make private-sector access and systematic tracking even more easy and likely.

http://www.unrealid.com/what.html
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bonito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-15-06 09:02 PM
Response to Original message
34. As long as our votes can't be verified
and these groups like pnac can come in and take over, as long as theres no public oversight, as long as our senate and congress are tied to special interest, We the people are but sheeple in the way of public policy that Dictates society for those in power, as it is.
In the world not of the world I do understand, with my free will I will not give up my soul, living this life as my heart guides me, I remain free.

Loose everything to find everything.
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