You know most people here were brought up christians -

[Joe for Clark]

of one type or the other. And 99.9% of us do not care what religion or lack thereof you choose - totally up to you.

So do not tell us that we are somehow stupid to think there may be something to this christianity thing - it so insulting. It is OUR choice. And we are pretty damn smart as a segment of society.

There is a christian right, I am sure - but you can be equally sure, there is a powerful christian left and we tipped the balance of power last month.

Let us all just leave religion out of politics here, please.

Joe

[NMDemDist2]

1. define "most"

I sure wasn't

[Joe for Clark]

4. 3 out 4, 4 out 5 - around there.

[NMDemDist2]

14. interesting, but not necessarily true. according to this site the numbers

don't back you up. and this site's numbers include non Christian observances as well

I think there are a lot more folks who don't attend than do. I learned about Christianity on TV, my parents NEVER took me to church, not once. and I doubt I'm the exception to the rule :shrug:


http://www.religioustolerance.org/rel_rate.htm

[SammyWinstonJack]

18. I wasn't brought up with religion, thankfully!

[QuestionAll...]

27. attending church has got nothing to do with christianity...

it's the message of Christ.

I don't necessarily believe there was that particular person (but I have seen that in particles in many people in my life), but I fully believe what he preached is the way.

[Joe for Clark]

32. I don't think going to church has anything to do with it.

[QuestionAll...]

34. I knew you knew. ;) it's personal and available anytime.

[SammyWinstonJack]

33. Wait, you don't necessarily believe there was that particular person, but

you fully believe what he preached is the way? :crazy: What am I missing here? You don't believe there was a person but you believe what he preached is the way? Are you nuts?

[QuestionAll...]

37. yes, and I'm not nuts to think that.

correct me if I'm wrong, but the teachings of Christ or others who have said the same, have the right idea.
Call him/her whatever you like. It's nameless, it's humane and right.

[Joe for Clark]

39. Oh, I do believe he was the son of god - I really do.

But what he said was different. What Jesus said was that he was the way.

He isn't necessarily the only way - he didn't say that. And by the way, god could certainly have more than one son.

This has to do with just what was said in sermon on the mount - it really does, and I don't want to sound religous.

Joe

[QuestionAll...]

40. I have some problems with all these hefty guys... being guys...

if you get my drift.
that's why I believe Christ is an idea, not a person that wears a certain kind of underwear.

[Joe for Clark]

43. Oh, Questionall - it is just the way we see things.

He is definately an ideal.

Joe

you be careful.

[QuestionAll...]

48. It's the way we are told to see things.

I prefer to call the Christ nongender.

[Pacifist Patriot]

5. Given the demographics of the nation, the odds are on the side...

of the claim. There is a high probability that most of the posters at DU have a stronger childhood tie to Christianity than any other religion. Might not be the case, but it's likely.

[Homer Wells]

2. Agreed and AMEN!!!!!

n/t

[mike_c]

3. totally agree-- my problem is with christians who don't take that advice...

...and insist on imposing their religion on me through the political process.

[Joe for Clark]

8. If they don't keep their thought to themselves -

than they deserve it. MOST of us do. And it is not fair to us, really not.

And I resent it.

Jot

[Wonk]

13. Um, you started this thread we're in. See any irony here? nt

[Joe for Clark]

23. I see irony in a lot of things Wonk -

But unfortunately - I saw the thread alittle while back.
Really pissed me off and it wasn't a new concept here - just one that needs to stop.

Jo

[Greybnk48]

6. Both of my parents were Atheists

and we never attended any church--not once. We did not discuss religion in our household, except on rare occasions. I don't really care what anyone else believes, as long as they do not impose their beliefs on me or my loved ones.

[Lorien]

79. Exactly the same here n/t

[Taxloss]

7. I understand your frustration.

The trouble is that the United States suffers under a President who has done everything in his power to put religion, specifically Christianity, into the heart of politics. That fight has to be fought. It's a central issue to the Republican agenda; it will inevitably be central to the debate on DU. The religious right may be embarrassing to LW and mainstream Christians, but maybe that should be taken as a cue for examination of where American Christianity is headed from progressive Christians.

[SidDithers]

9. You're giving credit to the christian left for Dem victories...

and yet you want religion out of politics.

Which is it?

Sid

[Joe for Clark]

11. It can go both ways Sid -

GOP proved that.

Joe

[longship]

10. Those folks need to understand the concept of tyranny of the majority

And read what the founding fathers thought about it. And understand why the tyranny of the majority does not apply to Constitutional rights, which are rather more absolute.

[Joe for Clark]

19. You know - we believe what we believe -

we do not ask any party to "back-us" in the doctrine - it is the big difference between the liberal and conservative christians.

You can believe what ever you want - and I won't ask anything of the democratic party to further my beliefs - but don't you ever make light of us. We don't do it to you, what ever your belief.

So leave us alone.

Joe

[NMDemDist2]

22. that seems pretty harsh Joe, he was just pointing out the Founders

didn't want ANY religion as part of the state, I didn't hear him making light of Christians at all :shrug:

[Joe for Clark]

26. I don't want it to be -

But there is truly no place in religion for politics - I wasn't particularly picking on any individual - I just don't want to see it at all here on DU - It has no place.

Joe

[Common Sense Party]

58. Religion has NO place in politics??? Or no place in government?

I'm so confused.

Religion has no place in politics. So, does that mean, no discussion of faith, of values, of ideals, if they have any sort of quasi-religious tone whatsoever? No public mention of God by any politician?

So I guess Jesse Jackson, Barack Obama and Bill Clinton can't mention their Christian upbringing, can't quote Bible verses or old hymns?

And believing individuals -- Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hundu, whatever -- should just keep ALL their beliefs to themselves when discussing public policy, society, etc.?

[Joe for Clark]

60. At the point it is being injected into political discourse -

EVEN IF I AGREE WITH IT- it is wrong.

Joe

[Common Sense Party]

65. So Jesse, Barack, Clinton, etc. should just keep their beliefs

quiet. No mention of them in public whatsoever.

Sounds rather anti-1st amendment to me.

[Joe for Clark]

68. You know - I can't tell you just juvenille I think that is.

Yeah - people try to persuade people by just how much they go to church - so what.

You want to take a policy based on religious ideology and turn it into a campaign slogan - I have a big problem.

I have no idea what you find unclear about that.

Let us just keep religion very far away from politics. That is where it belongs.

Joe

[Common Sense Party]

70. WTF do you think is "juvenile"?

Should the abolitionists have shut up about their religious beliefs when opposing slavery?

It is fine to me if, in this free country, a person wants to declare: I believe in X, Y or Z.

But that person had better explain, when proposing public policy, this is why this is for the betterment of society, and here is why it is constitutional, legal, and ethical.

In other words, I don't care if someone emotionally appeals to religion. But they had better back it up with the law and the facts when it comes to making policy.

[Joe for Clark]

73. That you presented a circular argument.

In the body politic there can be no appeal to religious opinion without excluding other religious opinion.

Start from that premise -

And by the way - all I am saying is to stop painting us christians as stupid.

Just stop it (not you in particular).

Joe

[Common Sense Party]

75. I'm afraid that makes no sense to me.

One cannot deny the source of his or her values.

For example...

If I derived certain beliefs or values from my particular ethnic or cultural upbringing, to mention that does not exclude nor diminish every other ethnicity or culture.

If I derived certain beliefs from my education at a particular institution, to mention that does not exclude or diminish other institutions, nor does it exclude those who did not have an education.

I just do not understand why religion must be a third rail, the ONE topic that must not be mentioned--here or on the campaign trail.

[Joe for Clark]

86. I didn't say not to mention it -I am trying to say don't look down

your nose at us because we believe certain things.

As to the other - you weren't asking a real question - you were trying to elicit a response that however answered would be negative.

The only point is that there should be NO negative conotation applied to anyone because of a religious belief - thats all.

Joe

[Zhade]

29. I promise not to make light of you.

Your beliefs, however, are accorded no special privilege of same, and are as open for criticism as any belief.

[Joe for Clark]

30. That is all anybody expects.

[longship]

63. Except if somebody has the audacity to mention the founding fathers.

Your take-down of my post was way, way out of line.

You don't even know if I'm a Christian, a Muslim, an atheist, a Hindu, a Druid, a theist, or whatever. Yet you were mighty harsh on my entirely reasonable, and well-reasoned response.

As a matter of fact, I am an atheist. It is your kind of Christianity which makes my stomach turn. This is precisely the kind of tyranny of the majority that the founding fathers were trying to avoid.

It works like this. A majority save one has no more right to silence the one, than the one has a right to silent the majority save the one. The sooner that Christians, Muslims, Hindus, and any other religious sect understand that concept, once they celebrate that concept, the sooner the world will be a better place.

I'm done with this.

[spoony]

80. The founding fathers had a tyranny of their own

I find it difficult to accept chatterings on freedom from people who OWNED other people.

[longship]

83. You need to read their writings some day.

Then, instead of flapping your gums about their slave ownership you'd understand clearly that on the whole they abhored slavery.

The one thing that they did get right was the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, which codified the express denial of the tyranny of the majority into law.

Read the Jefferson-Madison letters for some insight.

[spoony]

84. Lol.

Firstly, typing is not flapping one's gums. If your gums are flapping, I'd advise seeing an oral surgeon. Second, people who abhor slavery generally don't...own slaves. The Constitution is wonderful, but the authors were tyrants. Anyway I thought you were done with this thread.

[SammyWinstonJack]

12. I wasn't brought up with religion. I was however brought up a liberal.

My parents never introduced me to any religion. I am grateful for that! So grateful!

[QuestionAll...]

45. I'm kinda grateful I was... catholic.

ditched it as soon as I was out on my own.
but oh, the painful child years of hell and brimstone and being bad and sinful, Especially being a FEmale.
I can smell the stink of it in all it's agenda now better than many.

[Joe for Clark]

53. You know - I never did put a lot of attention into what the church

ever said. I was raised Catholic too. - Don't you.

At some point you look at it and say - "Who the hell are you" to tell me what Jesus meant? I'll do it myself.

And then we grow up. And we question and learn.

I am not going to take it out on the church - but I will surely will look deeper for the answer then they will deliver.

I so understnad where you are coming from.

Joe

[QuestionAll...]

56. as I said, I knew you know. ;)

I really don't have that much against churches, it's a just a social gathering, basically (or not. complex). But I decided to have my own instead - if only 3, it's a church ( I think Heesh said that). My small membership doesn't talk stupid shit like some mega churches do about being against gay marriage, stem cell, abortion, wars needed, etc.

If one of them would, I'd be on their ass with some facts and brimstone.

[dysfunctional press]

15. that's how every religion perpetuates it's particular myth...

indoctrinate them as young chidren, so that they accept it as a given fact.

my flavour was lutheran.

[RadiDem]

66. Yup - Episcopalian to Happy Atheist

[dysfunctional press]

82. yeah, my lutheranism wore off a long time back too...

and life is much more enjoyable.

[Rob H.]

16. "...powerful christian left... tipped the balance of power last month."

Yeah, 'cause, y'know, it's not as if those of us who've never even been to church actually go out and vote or anything. :eyes:

[walldude]

17. Do you choose your religion or are you born into it?

This is where I think the fundamental difference between a "right wing Christian" and a "left wing Christian" comes into play. It's like the difference between "indoctrination" and "learning". I believe that someone who has studied the teachings of Jesus by choice is more apt to be left-wing that someone who had the bible forced on them since birth.
I agree about keeping religion out of politics, what drives me nuts is that the seperation of Church and State was designed to protect the Church not the State. Now all of a sudden there is a movement in the Christian right to dissolve that seperation. I believe they call that cutting off your nose to spite your face..

[Joe for Clark]

25. You have to choose what you believe.

It is up to the individual.

I will not comment of the "christian right" - it is up to them, too.

Joe

[Pastiche423]

20. Where'd you get that "most"?

Ever check out the religion polls here? "Most" is no where near what the DU polls say.

Btw, I was not brought up xtian and want nothing to do w/those that lie and say this is a xtian nation. It wasn't in the beginning and it isn't now.

A great way to keep religion out of politics, is to stop fucking bringing it up here.

[Joe for Clark]

28. You grew up in the same america, right??

The exact way to correct this crud is to BRING IT UP HERE - you know why??

DO you??

This is NOT about who is right and wrong - it is about respect and leaving religion way out of political discussion - that is the bottom line.

Joe

[Zhade]

31. You say you want to leave religion out of political discussion...

...but also say that the way to correct...something (unclear what, exactly)...is to bring it up in political discussion.

Which is it?

As to respect, it is right to expect respect for you as a human being. But your beliefs are not off-limits, and no one is under any obligation whatsoever to respect them, or to not discuss religion if they feel so inclined.

YOU don't decide the debate, friend. You don't dictate the discussion. Get that straight.

[Joe for Clark]

35. Oh, to the extent it excludes people I shout my lungs off.

We should NEVER make light of people for any religious belief.

That has happened here. No more.

No more politics-religion - they really do not mix at all.

Joe

[Zhade]

42. I agree that people should not be made fun of for their beliefs.

But again, the beliefs are not off-limits for criticism.

PERIOD.

[Warren DeMontague]

46. Again, I suspect some want it both ways.

We're supposed to understand -and pretty much everyone here does- that the religious right doesn't speak for progressive Christians, that not all Christians are bible-thumping crazies who want to stone gays, want to put women in jail for taking the pill and who believe the Earth is 6,000 years old. Literally.

Right?

But I guarantee you that most of what constitutes this alleged "Christian Bashing" we're constantly hearing about on this site is specifically directed at the latter group.

So which is it? Are the beliefs of everyone who calls themselves "Christian" wrapped up with Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell, or not?

Again, they can't have it both ways.

And as for not ridiculing anyone's beliefs: Honestly, when these people want to put this crap:

http://www.answersingenesis.org/

into public school science classes-- you're damn right I'm gonna make fun of them.

[Common Sense Party]

62. Of course, you also realize...

that MUCH OF the religious right ARE NOT bible-thumping crazies who want to stone gays, want to put women in jail for taking the pill.

I know and am related to many on the "religious right." And NONE of my personal friends or acquaintances thump Bibles, want to stone gays, or want to imprision women for using contraception. Not one.

I know some extremist fundie-types are out there. But that's a mighty broad brush you're wielding.

[Warren DeMontague]

77. You misread my post. Those were examples of beliefs I might ridicule. But in all seriousness:

You should know that those views are NOT as "extreme" in the Religious Right, particularly the Reconstructionist Movement as one might originally expect. The reconstructionist movement is not a bunch of fringe loonies, either- they're prime movers and shakers with lots of power. I'd advise you to do some research- here's a good place to start:

http://theocracywatch.org/

***

The majority of "Pro-Life" organizations in this country consider the pill to be an abortifacent. Many of them make no moral distinction between use of the pill and surgical abortion.

The SCOTUS decision that the religious right bigwigs are really after isn't so much Roe as it is Griswold, before it.

The HLA plank of the GOP platform, as written, would give rights under the 14th amendment to fertilized eggs. Aside from the fact that, as above, most pro-life organizations are also anti-bc pill, several detailed legal examinations of the repercussions of the implementation of the HLA have concluded that it would unavoidably lead to the criminalization of the birth control pill.

Add to that the common religious right mantra that abortion is murder. Senator Coburn believes that abortionists deserve the death penalty. Sure, for now, the "pro-life" organizations generally try to portray women who have abortions (or, by extension, take the pill) as "victims", but how long before they realize that logical consistency demands those women be held to the same standard as abortion providers?

Meanwhile, across the heartland, a war IS being waged on contraception, and pharmacists who refuse to fill BC prescriptions, deny emergency contraception to rape victims, give unmarried women lectures about Jesus while holding their pill prescriptions hostage, etc. etc. are being lauded as "heroes"- again, by the religious right.

And last but not least, we have Bush's latest appointee to be the FAMILY PLANNING director at HHS.

...c'mon.

People who were really only interested in reducing the rates of abortion would see all this for the insanity it is. It's not about that. Whatever your friends may tell you notwithstanding, contraception IS the next target in the religious right jihad. The bottom line is, the people who think the act of fucking outside of marriage or for non-procreative purposes should be a crime are a helluva lot closer to the levers of power than you might want to realize.

(Justice Roy Moore also said the "crime" of being gay could warrant the Death Penalty)

[Zhade]

21. Leave religion out of politics? Hell yes!

Sadly, the topic will have to be discussed, because some don't agree with you.

[kiahzero]

24. Entirely too many, sadly.

"Public justifications for public policy" seems entirely too difficult for some people.

[MrSlayer]

36. I was brought up Catholic.

And because of this I feel that organized religion is a joke.

[Joe for Clark]

47. No disagreement from me.

I read the new testiment - doesn't say anything about mandatory church attendance.

ANd I have a problem with church structures - I really do.

You know I used to think - if Jesus said my kingdom is not of this world - my reaction to this day - is why are there churches exactly??

Joe

[Mythsaje]

38. My dad was ostensibly "Christian"

though he didn't believe in attending church. He, and, in fact, my grandmother before him, was a "jack" mormon.

My stepmother, with my father for eight years when I was 4 through 12 (major formative years in this regard) was probably most likely closer to a neo-pagan than anything else. At least she leaned that direction.

I went to several different churches and sunday schools as a kid, trying to find one that fit. Eventually I gave it up for a lost cause. Fell into Wicca in my twenties, then explored shamanism and Taoism...finally ending up with a pantheist/humanist viewpoint with taoist tendencies.

I don't buy into revealed religion at all. Seeking answers is one thing, and, in fact, what I think science is all about. Assuming you KNOW the answers based on books written, edited, and interpreted by HUMAN beings seems, to me, to be the height of folly and hubris.

Believe what you will...but don't expect me to believe it too.

[Warren DeMontague]

41. Well, I say the socially libertarian, pro-pot legalization, porn watching vote tipped the balance.

That's what ***I*** say. All hail your new masters.

[Joe for Clark]

44. Damn funny!!!

[Warren DeMontague]

49. I was only half kidding. Really, It's just as valid as your assertion.

Frankly, it doesn't seem to matter whether the election is won or lost, or which party comes out on top, some always want to chalk it off to the primacy of the religious vote. Or the "values" vote. Or the "heartland values voter" or some such crap.

Personally, I'm of the opinion that (and I think the Schiavo situation proved this in spades) the "values voters" aren't as numerous as the conventional wisdom wants us to believe. And I DO believe that there are millions of independent-minded, urban and suburban, educated, socially libertarian voters (people who, like you, want religion OUT of politics, among other things) that NO ONE is doing a very good job of reaching out to. And frankly, I think it's about time our party adjusted itself accordingly.

[Joe for Clark]

51. Well, then maybe you are right.

My only real point was not to pick on us christians - that is it.

Joe

There really was an effort this election. I am Catholic - and I worked with Epicopalians, Quakers, Lutherans, Methodists, others - cause we all believed the bottom line here.

And that has to do with just what was meant in the sermons on the mount - you have no idea how tempted I am to go into it, too. I will refrain.

You know, to this day, Mr Tester thinks I live in Montana - and I am sure not alone.

[William769]

50. Joe for Clark I completely understand what you are trying to say

As does everyone else in this thread. They just want to well you know...

After being here on Du for quite awhile I have come to the Conclusion that the religion bashing that goes on is not reserved for the Christian right (because they are not here) it's bashing the Christians that are on DU. It's disgusting. I have yet to see a thread started on DU trying to convert anybody here but boy I have I seen threads the other way around. I say live and let live, but it won't happen here there are certain people that will make sure of that.

The bottom line is Christians can't prove there is a God and the others can't prove their isn't, thats the bottom line. And when they say they don't have faith they are full of it! They have faith just like Christians do. Christians have faith in Christ and there faith is that there is no Christ. It has to be faith because they can't prove there is no Christ.

P.S. Jesus loves us all. :)

[Joe for Clark]

52. You said it better then me -

I will just not tolerate being referred to as a dummy cause I believe in a god.

I don't care what others believe - they can do what ever they please.

They just have no right referring to us this way - elections over - no more.

Joe

[RadiDem]

71. Maybe it's time for you to reclaim your religion from the hateful Fundys

I heard the Epicopal Reverand Rigas from All Saints Church in Pasadena Ca, speak. Wonderful compassionate progressive message. Why don't Christians who are sick of being lumped in with Falwell and Robertson DO SOMETHING, like organize and reclaim their religion from the fringe?

Have Rigas on TV to speak out against the hate.

[Joe for Clark]

85. That is what is happening - we were just slow.

The "christian right" - they were very effective for the gop - they were able to blur the line between faith and politics.

There are a few groups out there, but I do think faithful america was really effective in countering the non-sense.

There is a christian left. And we probably tipped the election this past November - not by espousing a political agenda - but by pulling the other into the light of day.

Sorry to respond so late - I am not feeling very well.

Joe

[Bryn]

54. I posted this on another DU board....

I cannot remember where I got them from as it was while back somewhere over the internet that I had saved to my disk.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Those of us that have faith tempered with a knowledge of our own humanity and obligation to others in the spirit of the message of 'I am my brother's keeper' will vote our consciences and if we are true to our beliefs, those votes will never go to the selfish, greedy, corrupt, mean-spirited, arrogant, hypocrites that run and seem to gravitate toward the republican party.

~~~~~

Evangelicals need to be "Saved"

Many of them are quite frankly, following an anti-Christ religion of greed and hate. If they continue to ignore the actual teachings of Jesus and embrace the Doomsday Cult that their leaders have created, the GOP can have them. The rest of America is sick of them and proved that last Tuesday.

Amen?

~~~~

If being a Christian isn't about helping people, helping the poor, taking care of our children & elderly, then I think the repubs must go to a different type of church than I grew up with. Not to mention the fact that I firmly also believe in a separation of church and state, which they seem to have forgotten. Why is it so hard to look to a church for religious guidance rather than a bunch of politicians?! I believe our government should help people rather than hurt people, but to me, that is a basic humanitarian issue that should go without saying, not a religious issue.....

~~~

There is a growing portion of the evangelical community for whom abortion and gay marriage are not the defining elements of Christianity. A few of these actually take the Sermon on the Mount literally ("blessed are the peacemakers") and are coming around to a progressive point of view. They've been mislead by their spiritual and political leaders, and to the extent that they've seen the light, they should be welcome in our tent.

~~~

True, people of faith have always tried to bring their interpretation of the Bible to bear on American laws and morals ... it's the American way, encouraged and protected by the First Amendment. But what is unique today is that the radical religious right has succeeded in taking over one of America's great political parties. The country is not yet a theocracy but the Republican Party is, and they are driving American politics, using God as a battering ram on almost every issue: crime and punishment, foreign policy, health care, taxation, energy, regulation, social services and so on.

~~~

It's always dangerous talking about politics or religion. Talking about both is DOOMED from the start! Clearly, when you do, it's like mixing fire and gasoline. There are always lot of emotions involved. I truly do respect anyone's personal religious beliefs and am extremely thankful for their freedom to believe as they chose... up to the point where they want to impose their beliefs on me.

~~~

The reason for this is not only to protect politics from the influence of religion. This reason for this is also to protect religion from the influence of politics! What is the record of nations in Europe that have the Lutherans or Catholics as their national churches. Is religion as vital there as it is here where we have a wall for the benefit of both? Once religions start taking government money (e.g. Bush's 'faith-based' initiatives) there is the inevitable corruption of faith that will follow.

~~~

The NeoCon right has tried to portray liberals as godless enemies of religion and people of faith. It is this perception, this false propaganda that must be taken on and brought down. It is those who would fail to respect the separation of church and state our founding fathers so wisely instituted that are the threat to religious freedom and vitality. They would allow our spiritual paths to be infested with political bickering and dilute the sincerity of belief by feeding from the federal trough of taxpayer monies.

~~~

'How happy are the poor in spirit; theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Hhappy the gentle; they shall have the earth for their heritage.

Happy those who mourn; they shall be comforted.

Happy those who hunger and thirst for what is right; they shall be satisfied.

Happy the merciful; they shall have mercy shown them.

Happy the pure in heart; they shall see God.

Happy the peacemakers; they shall be called sons of God.

Happy those who are persecuted in the cause of right; theirs is the kingdom of heaven.'

~~~

What Does Liberty Mean?

Liberty n.

The condition of being free from restriction or control.

The right and power to act, believe, or express oneself in a manner of one's own choosing.

The condition of being physically and legally free from confinement, servitude, or forced labor. Freedom from unjust or undue governmental control.

A right or immunity to engage in certain actions without control or interference: the liberties protected by the Bill of Rights.

Liberate tr.v.

To set free, as from oppression, confinement, or foreign control.

[Joe for Clark]

55. It is a nice post Bryn.

Joe

[ComerPerro]

57. you first

[Joe for Clark]

61. I could guess what you are talking about- but why don't you tell

me?

[ComerPerro]

78. you, Christians, keep your religion the hell out of politics

[Tatiana]

59. I'm with you 100% Joe.

I believe in God. I believe in Jesus. It's my faith and my right just as much as it is anyone else's to believe in something else or nothing at all. I don't impose my beliefs on others and I don't expect anyone to impose their beliefs (or lack thereof) on me.

It's almost as if "Christian" has been made to be synonymous with "right-wing nut." True Christians would break bread with prostitutes, give aid and comfort to those suffering with AIDS, and share what they had with the least among us. If people didn't just listen to the twisted rhetoric of some (tel)evangelists and, instead, studied history and actually read the Bible with historical facts in mind, they'd know what true Christianity is and/or what a real Christian isn't.

Religion doesn't have a place in politics or in public schools, in my opinion. You can't legislate it and we shouldn't be pay for the teaching of it with taxpayer dollars.

But for goodness sake, we shouldn't have to apologize for having faith in something that is very real and meaningful to us.

[Joe for Clark]

64. Good for you Tatiana!!

Joe

[RadiDem]

67. Boo - hoo! You're the majority. Think how the Scientolgists must feel

[Joe for Clark]

69. Just leave us out of it - we are not asking much here.

Joe

[RadiDem]

72. As I said above 'reclaim' your religion from Falwell and Robertson

I don't go out of my way to insult Xtians, but when I see posts like this......

[Joe for Clark]

74. Is that a fact???

[Occulus]

76. No, you can't stick up for YOUR choice until your religion stops condemning me for what it THINKS is

MY 'choice'.

Got it?

Good.

[Joe for Clark]

87. I don't condemn any one for any reason.

That is up to god.

You seem to confuse actual christianity with some churches interpretations or the the "Falwell's" interpretations.

It is sure not mine - and I don't think it is most people's. That is the real disconnect that these groups have caused.

Anyway - it just has no place in politics - good or bad.

Joe

[spoony]

81. You're fighting an impossible battle

There will always be people, and a good number here, whose self worth seems to be entirely linked to constantly debasing religious people. Some half-heartedly qualify their comments as directed at the "religious right" (even if their comments are against religion in general), some don't bother mincing words. Christmas apparently is their busy season.

[Joe for Clark]

88. I don't know - I think most people are decent.

They just don't seem to see what they say can hurt people.
I have faith in them though. Maybe they just needed to know they were -
Joe

[GreenTea]

89. It just so hard to put up with the complete bullshit with NO evidence...

only some pipe dream that there's something more has to be, hence silly ridiculous "faith"....so much controlling bullshit and the problems on earth ALL since humans evolved is RELIGION!!!! And it unfortunately comes into play so stupidly in our politics daily...What manipulation is worst than that of religion...YES, I believe your ALL fools, hope you'll never die, afraid, afraid, afraid and religion helps all believe they will still exist after death...who gives a fuck...I'm a liberal here on earth...I am happy it's complete over with when I die...I sure as fuck don't want to "exist" forever as these man made controlling money making, guilt producing religion want us to pray for, give money to and put all ones hope in...see what Catholicism has done for this SF Italian...It's shown me the light that it's all bullshit...yet we have to put up with the lies and controlling shit everyday with our politician's using it to continue control us workers!!!

[Joe for Clark]

91. This has nothing to do wiith politics -

But -

I'll tell you what I think. I try not to confuse my thoughts about Christ with the church - any church - cause I know the church is there to raise money to support itself. That automatically disqualifies them to me as the "real" source. And some of it, maybe a lot of it is faith - but my faith is not in any church.

There is historical evidence about what happened 2000 years ago. I look at that. But the thing that really sold me is the writtings in the four gospels - cause it is my conclusion that whoever said those words was not human.

I don't have a problem with the church on a certain level - but I also know they are run by people that have their own motivations. It was a framework I guess.

There - you got me to spill me belief system.

This still has no place in politcs - and "christians" should not get a bad rap because of the "christian right".

Joe

[Zhade]

97. "There is historical evidence about what happened 2000 years ago."

No, there really isn't.

[tinfoil tiaras]

90. Totally agree

I really hate this holier-than-thou attitude that some people (in my real life...i'm not talking about DU) have about Christians--"Oh, you're a Christian, therefore you must stand with Dobson/Fallwell/Robertson/Bush/etc" Those men, imo, are the farthest thing from Christian to me. At least in their public lives they are. And I even had one friend tell me, when I told her I was going to church camp (it wasn't like Jesus Camp in "Jesus Camp" the movie--I would NOT wanna go to that place), she asked me, in all seriousness, if I was going to "turn republican". :eyes:

[Joe for Clark]

92. It is absolutely astounding to me the way this

christian right managed to blur the lines and miss the point all at the same time.

I belong to faithful america -they sent this email alert today. There is aparently this video game the "right" is marketing - like - kill the non-believer. I think a year ago they wouldn't have been called on it. They are now, big time. We are all calling bullshit right now. They will not get away with this crap again.

We are organizing.

Joe

[tinfoil tiaras]

93. I saw that, like "Left Behind: The Rapture" game?

Makes me sick.

[Joe for Clark]

95. Oh yeah - this is the headline on the faithful amerca alert

Left Behind... What in God's name are they thinking???

Those people are genuinely scary - and they are NOT christian.

Joe

[LWolf]

94. It's hard.

I agree that there is a christian left, and I'm thankful for them. It's just hard to leave religion out of politics when there is a large, vocal, active group who would like a theocratic republic in the U.S..

There are a couple of problematic issues with christianity and politics. It would be so much easier to leave religion out of it, but the doctrine opposes that. You know. The part about there being only one way to god (through christ, or christianity, if that is the same thing), and the mandated "witnessing/proseltyzing/converting" imposed by many.
If followers of christ weren't exhorted to go out and convert the rest of us: if christians quietly and privately went about their devotions without constantly trumpeting it to the rest of the world, it would be a lot easier to leave them out of the political equation. Someone once told me it was because christianity is a relatively young religion; that older religions have left behind the need to convert. I don't know about that. I do know that I respect christians who try to live their lives like christ, whether I agree with them, or their church doctrine, or not. For the rest, as long as organized religion organizes itself for political action there will be a political reaction.

[Joe for Clark]

96. It is hard - it has ben made hard lately.

What they did - managed to sell was that -to vote against their political motivations was somehow not "christian" - That there was a blur in the lines between faith in a religion and a political objective. And to do that, in my opinion, they sold their souls.

I probably shouldn't have added the last line - but I think it is true.

Anyway - I am no evangelical. I believe everybody needs to come to terms with what they believe.

And we need to all understand, there can be more than one path to a truth.

You know - Jesus said he was the way - he never said he was the only way.

Joe