Good grief, arteriovenous malformation (AVM) sounds more common than it should

[brentspeak]

There's been quite a few DUers posting about their own experience with AVM -- either it happened to themselves or it happened to a relative. Also, just as many DUers mentioning experiences with strokes, aneurysms, other brain conditions. Same thing on other forums I've read. I myself had a 27-year-old uncle who died of a brain aneurysm (though that was quite a long time ago -- the early 1970's).

Were AVM's, brain aneurysms, strokes this common in the U.S. before, say, 1980?

[lapfog_1]

1. I don't have the statistics, but probably

the thing is, with modern rapid intervention medicine, more of these patients are surviving... thus giving name and form to the problem, whereas in our past, people having this would "just dropped dead one day - probably a heart attack". And nobody looked into it. By the time the doctor saw the patient, the patient was dead, the doctor, having other patients to get to, would certify a time of death and, not seeing any signs of something else, indicate heart attack. The coroner would come along later and certify. End of story. No reason to do an autopsy and see if the heart was normal or not, no reason to look for broken arteries in the brain.

I have a condition (WPW) that affect 7 percent of the population (to one degree or another), yet, when I was a teenager and first experienced an arrhythmia attack, no one even knew what to look for, much less have a name for it or a treatment.

[Missy M]

2. I don't think AVM's are that common.....

and with new technology the prognosis for someone with them is very good. When my husband had them last year the neurosurgeon told us 10 years ago they would have had to open the skull and his chances would not have been good. With his massive bleeding they did four surgeries with the new technology and he is doing pretty good now.

[karlrschneider]

3. I think it has more to do with medical advances in diagnosis. 50 years ago

people who just 'dropped dead', as my grandmother did in ~1952? were supposed to have simply had a 'stroke' but the term it seems to me was somewhat of a catch-all (along with heart attack) for any number of as yet not understood conditions. Maybe we forget how recently things like CAT scans, MRI's and such were invented.

[benddem]

4. Yes

probably many more than were diagnosed. It's definitely not a new thing.

[brentspeak]

5. Off-topic -- I just took a look at your Vietnam site. Fascinating, and very moving.

[benddem]

6. thanks for looking

and reminding me I need to add some stuff.

[Margaret Diann]

10. at what cost war?

http://www.valdezlink.com/pages/americans-diedinwar.htm

Don't have enough posts to see your link on Vietnam Vets

[Margaret Diann]

7. common birth defect from 1940s

Brain tumors, leukemia, tumors of various kinds ... and things such as AVMs should be suspect for the baby boomers & children of all VETs from war periods: Vietnam, Korea, Gulf war vets, today's troops should prove out the same. AND civilians who have CFS, CFIDS, FM issues. (Most noticeably for those who paint a lot, clean a lot, or worked in various manufacturing)

The lines are getting more and more blurred as to how military are different than civilian health ... especially with the 'gulf war syndrome' vets. They are no more harmed than the general population. Except for ALS & these vets have NO Presumptive list for auto approval of health damage

I looked up various health issues and do believe that except for the couple of things Dioxin (Agent Orange does) ... the rest of the list of what happened to the Vietam vet is the same for WWII vets and others:

Soft tissue sarcomas ... all of them

Non-Hodgkin's lymphoma

Hodgkin's disease

Porphyria cutanea tarda

Respiratory cancers (lung, larynx, trachea)

Prostate cancer

Multiple myeloma

Hepatobiliary cancers

Nasal/nasopharyngeal cancer

Bone cancer

Female reproductive cancers (breast, cervical, uterine, ovarian)

Renal cancer

Testicular cancer

Leukemia

Spontaneous abortion

Birth defects

Neonatal/infant death and stillbirths

Low birthweight

Childhood cancer in offspring

Abnormal sperm parameters and infertility

Cognitive and neuropsychiatric disorders

Motor/coordination dysfunction

Peripheral nervous system disorders

Metabolic and digestive disorders (diabetes, changes in liver enzymes, lipid abnormalities, ulcers)

Immune system disorders (immune modulation and autoimmunity) ></SCRIPT>

Circulatory disorders

Respiratory disorders

Skin cancer

Gastrointestinal tumors (stomach cancer, pancreatic cancer, colon cancer, rectal cancer)

Bladder cancer

Brain tumors

The Chemical exposure that would do ALL of these things was the other chemical in the mix:
Ethylene Glycol Monobutyl Ether or modern name since its widespread use 1930s on is 2-butoxyethanol. It causes autoimmune hemolytic anemia that is hard to find ... but findable.

It causes lots and lots of birth defects & people are easily exposed today.

[SoCalDem]

8. Probably.. remember that technology has changed a lot.

back then lots of people just died from them, and if no autopsy was done, or the medical examiner was not looking for them, they might have been overlooked.

Mine was in my arm, and was no biggie, but who knows if there are others lurking in there too ..in other places..

the real miracle is when nothing goes wrong with us :)

[Margaret Diann]

9. in the case of Senator Tim Johnson

The AVM was a birth defect ... it was there from birth. He is a baby boomer. He had this for about 60 years before it ever 'showed up' He graduated from high school in 1965 ... so he is probably 60 years old or so.

He also had prostate cancer in 2004. That is another kind of thing to be suspect from 2-butoxyethanol exposure. This chemical targets the testes. http://www.state.nj.us/health/eoh/rtkweb/0275.pdf">Note the MSDS info from the New Jersey Hazardouus Substance info pdf

http://groups.msn.com/renalliver/latebirthdefects.msnw">The research IS done; sadly, its exposure is not recognized on a practical level and the poisoning of all of us goes on and on and on.

Usually it is more than brain tumors. And the attention is focused elsewhere.

http://www.valdezlink.com/inipol/pages/thelma.htm">Look at what happened to Thelma a few years ago.

http://groups.msn.com/clean/suegalloway.msnw">Look at what happened to my friend, Sue. Brain tumors were there, but her death is blamed on liver cancer.

They blamed a cerebral hemorragh for the death of Pres FDR just because he went to bed with a horrible headache that night? http://www.valdezlink.com/pages/thosewithcfids.htm#does">Look at the pattern of what the whole of his health issues were, and it would be very clear that he died from effects of the 2-butoxyethanol chemical. What ALL his exposures were, I do not know, http://www.valdezlink.com/pages/whataboutpolioFDR.htm">but the 'polio' was actually acute CIDP (Guillian-Barré syndrome actually an inflammatory affliction in which the body's immune system attacks the peripheral nerves) ... in which the immune system attacks the nervous system and causes paralysis. Start up exposure would have been the 'strange influenza' on the return voyage back from the visiting the front lines in WW I. That was in 1917. By 1920, the paralysis showed up.

At any rate there was no autopsy when he died in 1945. Doctors just guessed I guess.

The most important group of citizens for doctors to look closely at ... are those with http://www.valdezlink.com/cfid_share.htm">Chronic Fatigue Immune Dysfunction Syndrome (CFIDS) and if the autoimmune system is not recognized, CFS or FM for short (subsets of CFIDS)

http://www.valdezlink.com/evos/afteroil.htm">This chemical is one I suspect for the cause of 'gulf war syndrome' and the population who could prove it are the Exxon Valdez oil spill cleanup workers. If they were ever sought out you would see how these 2 groups look alike. AND I would suspect to find the majority of both groups ... dead ... at this point in time.

http://www.valdezlink.com/usa_hoodwinked.htm">Why the USA can not find the REAL cause of 'gulf war syndrome'

Be careful, all, what you clean with. Vapors of this chemical in one's eyes can cause serious harm to our children, our pets ... and everyone. http://groups.msn.com/clean/spotshot.msnw">Example of Spot Shot & 2 different cats. http://www.valdezlink.com/pages/helen.htm">And what about Helen? Died a year ago, and the main health issues were most probably because she kept a clean house. This chemical is hidden away & too strong in many home cleaning products. I suppose you like IMUS? His new cleaning product does NOT disclose all ingredients as he advertises. I am mad at IMUS. IMUS' product is no better than many others. http://groups.msn.com/clean/concluding.msnw">Be careful what you clean with Just because a product claims it is safe, is not necessarily so. And that includes Simple Green.

I think Senator Johnson is in a unique position to help our Nation stop the harm of this chemicals. He is held in very high regard by those in the military and by his coworkers. No more mock trials (without air tight goggles) of military past wars ... for today's soldiers.
In fact, this is a chemical that Congress needs to ban because EPA is helpless in the lobbying of the chemical companies, and I think the President is powerless, too. I suspose you might guess what I suspect for his little sister, Robin's death at the age of three?

http://www.valdezlink.com/pages/aihi_gulfwar2.htm">For those with too much DIRECT exposure, look for these things

Research is DONE.

And I believe doctors CAN find the fatigue of CFS, FM, CFIDS

http://groups.msn.com/RenalLiver/cfidscfsfm.msnw">I am just someone who recognizes the harm of 2-butoxyethanol

No more

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