Class or Race?

[nemo137]

Which is more important? Is a poor white man or woman just as fucked as a poor black man or woman? Are we more afraid to talk about race or class? Should there be wealth-based affirmative action instead of racially-based affirmative action? What're your feelings on all this?

[951-Riverside]

1. Race.

Poor white men and women who I believe make up a large majority of these nazi organizations have a far better chance & privlage at life then a hard working black man or woman will ever have in their lifetime.

[nemo137]

6. What nazi organizations?

I'm not gonna say it's a non-issue, but it's also not representative of poor whites. You look at poor white racism, you see alot of scape-goating and needing someone to look down on, because they, too, lack chance and priviledge. I'm gonna make the arguement that in terms of, say, hiring and police harassment, you're probably right, but in terms of school and social mobility, being poor is more of a mark against you than being black.

[HEyHEY]

2. Oh my god, an issue that matters

Hang on, I'm not sure what to do in this situation it's been so long.

For the record, I think it should still be race based.

[leftstreet]

3. Katrina was about class, until the corporate media played the race card

Everyone everywhere was glued to the tv, MORTIFIED that these POOR people were being Left Behind. I think mainstream America saw themselves in the experience of a govt leaving them at shit-filled convention ctr.

Then some assclown reporter got his/her marching orders from one of the 6 corporate conglomerates who decide on a daily basis what we should/shouldn't be talking about and/or thinking, and they turned it into race.

[951-Riverside]

5. I disagree the media wasn't playing the race card

That week I watched I saw clear racism, in the areas of Mississippi & Louisiana where you saw white faces you saw the salvation army, red cross, national guard, etc but in the black areas of LA especially in the NO area you saw NOTHING for DAYS!

You can't ignore this.

[leftstreet]

13. No, I specifically meant the Convention Ctr and Superdome

When all of America was watching, waiting to see them rescued. But instead, watching fellow AMERICANS being left behind. It was a color-blind moment.

[Jamison]

4. I think we've beat this one to death here, but...

I think class is more of a factor than race. Many here have disagreed with me on this, but I still say that an upper-middle class black family has MANY more advantages than a poor white family living in a trailer park.

[Extend a Hand]

11. that is certainly true

however, when you compare a middle class black family and a middle class white family I believe that members of a white family by virtue of race alone will still be afforded many more opportunities and escape challenges that members of the black family will face.

[ScreamingMeemie]

23. Except the black kid walking home from school in that neighborhood

has more of a chance of being arrested than the white kid walking through that neighborhood looking for a house to break into.

[EFerrari]

29. 10K sundown towns in this country don't allow black people

to stay after sundown.

[petronius]

39. You mean "didn't allow", right? (nt)

[EFerrari]

42. No, present tense. Here is an Amazon link to the book:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/156584887X/sr=1-1/qid=1138827761/ref=pd_bbs_1/103-4599270-4220667?%5Fencoding=UTF8

[petronius]

52. According to the reviews/descriptions on that page,

Loewen is describing a historical period, that extended to the 1960s. He does not seem to make the claim that sundown towns are still in existence.

[EFerrari]

53. He spoke on BookTV and unless I misunderstood, this figure

is not "historical". His project is to out these communities. On the other hand, I may have misheard him and I haven't read the book yet. Saw it twice though, so I tend to go with even my memory. :silly:

[AspenRose]

50. Or the black mother at the mall being followed around by security

Never mind that she's well-dressed and "articulate" and clearly can afford to buy whatever she's looking for in the store. She's the one being watched by security while a poor white (or rich white) person once again gets away with shoplifting.

Remember the guy who went to Wal-Mart to get gift cards in Florida? Remember what happened to him?

Middle class and well-off black people *still* get mistaken for being 'the help' by clueless white people.

That would never happen to a poor white person. They may be looked down upon for being poor, but they'd never be subjected to the situations previously described.

[sandnsea]

51. It's class AND race

Why do we let them keep dividing and conquering. I've been that poor person followed around JC Penneys. In all white rural towns, it's the white kid from the wrong family who the police are always looking to arrest. I'm a huge defender of affirmative action and call bullshit on those who deny racism, but there is classism too. Superiority and self-righteousness is what it should be called.

[AspenRose]

64. And I'm that person of color that's been followed around at the store.

Class plays a factor, but it is primarily race.

Why else would the 'southern strategy' work so well among poor southern whites who continually vote against their best interest? Because "at least they aren't black." Why does it continue to still work so well today?

And you were probably followed at Penny's because they didn't have a black person to watch.

[Karenina]

68. I remember hearing

about some teenies who figured out how to scam racist assumptions. They'd all enter a store, security would busy itself with the black kids while the white ones made out like bandits. Then they'd meet later to split the loot. KIDS! What the hell is WRONG with these kids today?
(dada-dup-tada) :rofl:

An aquaintance waiting for a cab in front of a 5-star hotel had keys thrust into his hand. He heaved them out into traffic, then got into his cab. :rofl:

[ScreamingMeemie]

69. It happens even in the Northern States...Here in Detroit even.

And it makes me sick.

[bobalu]

7. Interesting question..One thing I DO know..

is that Republicans never MENTION class except as a practiced response to folks who point out the differing treatment given to the Rich and...well..everybody else..That pesky little concept of "Fairness"

When I pointed out that Bush Sr. has ELEVEN grandchildren of Military age, but "none serving in Iraq"..He accused me of "Class Warfare"..and also erroneously claimed that "the upper classes rarely serve in the Military"...Interesting that another young college student (History Major of all things)...made the same claim re: class and Military service. I quickly educated her to the fact that this was a relatively recent phenomenon beginning with Vietnam. As I said, aLL of FDR's five sons fought in WWII, as did both Kennedy brothers, Joe and Jack, as well as Bush Sr.

[nemo137]

9. Also, if you look at where soldiers in Illinois are from, it's

Chicago proper and downstate, not the suburbs. Hmmm...

[napi21]

8. I don't think you can have wealth based affirmative action.

I'm not sure how to answer your question. I'm a female who fought very hard to get sort of equal rights in the work place. Notice, I said sort of.

I'm not black so I don't know what it's like to be capable and applying for a job and just told NO.\ when you know it's only because you're black.

I can tell you, I hired and fired people for 30 years, and I always hired the candidate who I felt was the best able to do the job.

I had people tell me I "don't think I'm going to get this job because I'm old and you will discriminate!"

I've had some who said "You have to hire me because I'm black and you need diversity."

I didn't hire either one because I didn't need disruption in my office.

I don't know if laws can really make a difference. Employers who are going to discriminate are going to find a way to do it.

BTW, my 3 BEST employees were black and no one in the department ever noticed because they were good at what they did.

[nemo137]

10. I was thinking in terms of college admission

I know Michigan awards points for underrepresented counties, which amounts to the same thing, but I wonder if it could be expanded to a critereon dealing with % of kids in a district on free/reduced lunch.

[ComerPerro]

28. Well, it does exist. Just in reverse

How did Bush get into college? His admission to Yale and Harvard was no different than the lies that conservatives tell about minorities "getting into all the good schools and all the good jobs" just because of their skin color.

But got in because he is rich and well connected.

[shanti]

12. race

the wheels of progress are slowly turning, but race still colors the perception of many americans. most americans think that south africa was bad, but are too blind to look in their own backyard first.

[nemo137]

14. Follow up: how much has poverty been racialized?

Most poor people in America are white, for example, but ask a white-collar worker about race and poverty, and see what his response is.

[wiley]

15. Good Question

Poor people usually lack basics like safety, disposable income versus high interest loans if at all available, access to information that is otherwise readily available to others, and of course the access to and ability to vote. We could debate and throw hundreds of citations around, but I firmly believe the case has been made. People of color (which can include races and specific ethnic groups), however, overwhelmingly face those barriers and outright discrimination based on skin color and "the tyranny of low expectations". That quote is really the underlying belief that white conservatives have to be somehow accountable for those who are stereotyped as being unable to achieve anyway.

The problem is that whites, even poor whites, are institutionally treated as classed according to their own merits or lack thereof. In the white caste system, a poor white person who does wealthier white people's domestic chores or who work as a laborer is still a white person that other whites feel willing to help as long as they recognize their place. People of color are typically treated as lazy, stupid, or just unable to ascend to any position without some "special" recognition and assistance that a white person would never dream of giving a person of color whose goal is to exist as an equal or act as entitled to the same opportunities as anyone in the white caste system. And when racial or ethnic groups develop their own prosperity, historically they have been violently destroyed, often having whole towns and families and businesses wiped out by indignant, rabid white mobs.

It's a very complex issue and the platitudes used today about racial equality and equal opportunities are barely functional. Race is the issue underlying all the policies of the Republican Party, and but it's not just about Blacks but Asians, Hispanics, etc. Many White Democrats are also still very uncomfortable about race, but nowhere near the hysteria and hatred level of Republicans. Of course there are exceptions, but this is the generalized playing field.

[nemo137]

16. I tend to think that alot of white racism is born of poverty

it's a scapegoating reaction, the idea the "we may be bad off, but at least we ain't them." I do agree that having a low melanin count and almost stereotypically European features gives me certain advantages, but these come in the end game - in hiring, in getting charged with a crime - and not in most of life - education and opportunities. I really don't think we're going to solve the race issue until we talk about the class issues, and de-racialize poverty.

[Solo_in_MD]

17. Race is getting pretty slippery over time

More and more of us are of mixed racial and social ancestry to the point where its getting pretty hard to tell who is of what race. With the exception of Kam schools and some Native American programs there is no established threshold for claiming to be of one race or another, or a means to dispute a questionable claim. Seen that go both ways in the past few years (non minority claim minority status due to 1/8, and a minority being rejected since they did not fit the perceived cultural norm for that minority group). In the long run, it will have to be economics and not race.

I have heard that in Canada the term "visual minority" is used, which I assume means appearance. Not sure how that would work in the US.

[skids]

18. Depends on geography and circumstance.

Let's not deny it. There are some circles where race matters.

Let's not deny it. There are some circles where money matters.

Let's celebrate it. There are some circles where neither do.

[Sapphire Blue]

19. What's more important is standing up for ALL who are oppressed.

[nemo137]

20. True, but no one seems to give a rat's ass about class-issues

Except John Edwards, maybe, on the national level. That man has my vote locked up for the next primary.

[Sapphire Blue]

21. The question itself is divisive. It's not one or the other...

... it's oppression and injustice.

Yes, John Edwards was the candidate who talked about the 'two Americas'. He didn't, and doesn't favor any one group over another, but speaks out on behalf of the 'other America'... the oppressed America, and the injustices done to those that are oppressed... and correcting those injustices. Why isn't that what we focus on, instead of trying to pit race against class? Why can't we look out for each other, support each other... "hold hands and stick together."?

ALL I REALLY NEED TO KNOW I LEARNED IN KINDERGARTEN by Robert Fulghum

(a guide for Global Leadership)

All I really need to know about how to live and what to do and how to be I learned in kindergarten. Wisdom was not at the top of the graduate school mountain, but there in the sand pile at school.

These are the things I learned:

Share everything.
Play fair.
Don't hit people.
Put things back where you found them.
Clean up your own mess.
Don't take things that aren't yours.
Say you're sorry when you hurt somebody.
Wash your hands before you eat.
Flush.
Warm cookies and cold milk are good for you.
Live a balanced life - learn some and think some and draw and paint and sing and dance and play and work every day some.
Take a nap every afternoon.
When you go out in the world, watch out for traffic, hold hands and stick together.
Be aware of wonder. Remember the little seed in the Styrofoam cup: the roots go down and the plant goes up and nobody really knows how or why, but we are all like that.
Goldfish and hamsters and white mice and even the little seed in the Styrofoam cup - they all die. So do we.
And then remember the Dick-and-Jane books and the first word you learned - the biggest word of all - LOOK.

Everything you need to know is in there somewhere. The Golden Rule and love and basic sanitation. Ecology and politics and equality and sane living.

Take any one of those items and extrapolate it into sophisticated adult terms and apply it to your family life or your work or government or your world and it holds true and clear and firm. Think what a better world it would be if we all - the whole world - had cookies and milk at about 3 o'clock in the afternoon and then lay down with our blankies for a nap. Or if all governments had as a basic policy to always put things back where they found them and to clean up their own mess.

And it is still true, no matter how old you are, when you go out in the world, it is best to hold hands and stick together.

http://www.peace.ca/kindergarten.htm

Recently I met a man who did not vote in the 2004 election, said that he couldn't support either Kerry or bush... but would have readily supported & campaigned for Edwards had he been the Democratic presidential nominee. He was from either Va. or W. Va. (can't remember which), and had family & friends still living there who felt the same way.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

22. Class.

Race obviously plays a big role, but I believe class is the overriding factor.

As far as affirmative action goes, I think it should be based on socio-economic status rather than race.

[Mass]

24. class

Once in a while, the media will speak about race, even if it is pure pandering. They are terribly afraid to hear the word class: imagine what would happen if poor people of all races realized they had common interest and unite.

Why do you think the right continue to attack affirmative action programs: it makes the story about the bad black people who takes your job rather than about how poverty affects people.

I am not saying that there is not racism and that it should not be fought, but part of this racism is linked to the right and the business interest opposing people so that they forget that they have the same interests.

[BlueManDude]

25. Everything is about race

[Karenina]

27. In Amurkkka

RACE TRUMPS EVERYTHING!!! (See: The Apprentice ;-) )

A friend forwarded this e-mail "joke" to me.

Rex Barker here again with "The Power of Racism...a true story."

On a recent weekend in Atlantic City, a woman won a bucketful of
quarters at a slot machine. She took a break from the slots for dinner
with her husband in the hotel dining room. But first she wanted to
stash the quarters in her room. "I'll be right back and we'll go to
eat," she told her husband and carried the coin-laden bucket to the
elevator.

As she was about to walk into the elevator she noticed two men already
aboard. Both were black. One of them was tall....very tall...an
intimidating figure. The woman froze.Her first thought was: These two are going to rob me. Her next thought was: Don't be a bigot, they look like perfectly nice gentlemen. But racial stereotypes are powerful, and fear immobilized her. She stood and stared at the two men.

She felt anxious, flustered and ashamed. She hoped they didn't read her mind but Gosh, they had to know what she was thinking!!!
Her hesitation about joining them in the elevator was all too obvious
now. Her face was flushed. She couldn't just stand there, so with a
mighty effort of will she picked up one foot and stepped forward and
followed with the other foot and was on the elevator.

Avoiding eye contact, she turned around stiffly and faced the elevator
doors as they closed. A second passed, and the another second, and then another. Her fear increased! The elevator didn't move. Panic consumed her. My God, she thought, I'm trapped and about to be robbed! Her heart plummeted. Perspiration poured from every pore. Then one of the men said, "Hit the floor." Instinct told her to do what they told her.

The bucket of quarters flew upwards as she threw out her arms and
collapsed on the elevator floor. A shower of coins rained down on her.
Take my money and spare me, she prayed.More seconds passed. She heard one of the men say politely, "Ma'am, if you'll just tell us what floor you're going to, we'll push the button." The one who said it had a little trouble getting the words out. He was trying mightily to hold in a belly laugh. The woman lifted her head and looked up at the two men. They reached down to help her up. Confused, she struggled to her feet.

"When I told my friend here to hit the floor," said the average sized
one, "I meant that he should hit the elevator button for our floor I
didn't mean for you to hit the floor, ma'am." He spoke genially. He bit his lip. It was obvious he was having a hard time not laughing.
The woman thought :" My God, what a spectacle I've made of myself." She was too humiliated to speak.. She wanted to blurt out an apology, but words failed her. How do you apologize to two perfectly respectable gentlemen for behaving as though they were going to rob you? She didn't know what to say. The three of them gathered up the strewn quarters and refilled her bucket.

When the elevator arrived at her floor they then insisted on walking
her to her room. She seemed a little unsteady on her feet, and they
were afraid she might not make it down the corridor. At her door they
bid her a good eveing. As she slipped into her room she could hear them roaring with laughter
as they walked back to the elevator. The woman brushed herself off. She pulled herself together and went downstairs for dinner with her
husband.

The next morning flowers were delivered to her room - a dozen roses.
Attached to EACH rose was a crisp one hundred dollar bill. The card
said: "Thanks for the best laugh we've had in years."

It was signed; Eddie Murphy and Michael Jordan.

[raccoon]

30. Urban legend.

http://www.snopes.com/racial/mistaken/hitfloor.htm

[Karenina]

35. OH, I know that!!!!

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

I was just waiting for someone to take the bait.

It was sent to me by a very old and dear friend who is JUST beginning to "get it." She couldn't/wouldn't "get it" when I was harassed driving through B.H. in my classic 2-seater. Did I STEAL it? Enquiring cops want to know. "You know your registration is almost expired." Is it a violation of the law to have a sticker due to expire in 6 weeks? THAT was what I wanted to know.

The only way that one can understand how profoundly race ALWAYS trumps class is to be "of color" and "economically upper-class" with all the trappings thereof. This is a dynamic VERY FEW who have the "privilege" of white skin are willing to recognize...

In your efforts to marginalize those affected by the "color line," you only succeed in marginalizing yourwhiteselves, because YOU'RE CORRECT! It IS about how much $$$$$$ you have. One need look no further than the ongoing calamity of the Gulf Coast. MOTHER FUCKIN' A. Race and class are inextricably intertwined. WHAT IS NOT TO GET???
:argh::argh::argh::argh::argh::argh:

[raccoon]

37. At least, you know it now!

:rofl:

[Karenina]

58. Liebe(r) Dreckslüder/Mistkerl...

I've LIVED IT! Not this trumped-up story about some folks whose names everyone recognizes, but I and my loved ones have LIVED THROUGH SIMILAR SHIT. The tip-off was the dozen roses with bills attached. Yup! Pay the pale one for her racist reactions! Where's Gladys, or was it Eunice, when you need her?

[nemo137]

62. You're right, I don't recognize that situation.

because I'm lower-class and white. If I had the trappings of being upper-class to go with my white skin, I'd be in a rosy wonderland of not giving a shit. As it is, though, I'm working two jobs and going into debt for the rest of my natural life so I can teach or do labor law. And I'm one of the lucky ones. I got into college. I didn't have to go into the army because there were no opportunities for me. Race and class aren't always intertwined. It's the few against the many, like it usually is. A few white men have the power, have covinced all the other whites that they have the power, too, and use that to split off any cohesive opposition to that rule.

White priviledge is a problem that I have no idea how to fix, or if it can be fixed. Most of the time, I'm not even aware of it. Class priviledge, on the other hand, stares me right in the face every day. It does that to most of the Rust Belt and South, too, as well as huge chunks of the rest of the country, black and white. In some ways, though, I can't see much progress being made of white priviledge until we start to work on class consciousness.

[lukasahero]

26. It's race, then class and gender

A poor black woman is fucked more than anyone else in this country.

[Misunderestimator]

41. Yep... but...

A poor black lesbian is even more fucked... so to speak... ;)

[lukasahero]

44. True dat.

:hi:

[izzybeans]

31. Class * Race = Steep Uphill battle if the result is low social capital

Affirmative action is in place to force reflexive awareness pertaining to cultural stereotyping/racism/sexism/etc when it comes to hiring qualyfied candidates. A wealth based affirmative action would have the purpose of reducing income disparities within the workplace, so that CEO's make a more reasonable sum overagainst the lowest paid employee. I don't think hiring practices can be effected in terms of poverty. That fix will have to come in other parts of the system; family planning, education, health care, etc, which support social mobility. IMHO

Add gender into the equation and you get a steeper uphill battle. Which one is more important is not determinable. What's important is how they intersect.

[newportdadde]

32. Class is the issue the RW fears and race is used to keep the divide.

The reason being is because class is something that if we could get it together would unite everyone across all colors and form a huge power base. The day a rural person in Tenn realizes they have more incommon with an urban black in Chicago then the rich whites at the country club is the day Republican power ends in this country.

Wedge issues like race are used to keep all of us peasants from all colors inline.

[Sapphire Blue]

36. Close ranks, don't permit RW wedges; "it is best to hold hands and...

... stick together." - Robert Fulghum

[goodhue]

33. race

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

34. Poor blacks are always worse off than poor whites.

Whites (I am one) always have a step (more like a number of steps) up over blacks.

To fully understand this, you must study slavery and it's aftermath that lingers to this very day. Something most Americans are abysmally ignorant of. It's a lot more than realizing than slavery was "bad". Slavery built a culture that still exists in Blacks and Whites. A culture of patriarchcy that still clings to the notion of "good niggers" and "bad niggers". The "good" being the ones that coform to American (white) middle-class "values" despite the endless roadblocks denying them wherewithall to do so. The "bad" being those who are unable to, or reject, those "values".

Whites don't have to face that differentiation. We are considered "good" simply by having the luxury of white skin. If we "fail" it is seen as an individual "failure". If a black "fails" it's because he/she is black.

This is not to deny the very real problem of "class" which is part and parcel of what troubles America and the world, but racism as the result of slavery is unique.

[SmokingJacket]

38. Depends on the context.

I don't think you can be sweeping and say one is always more important than the other. Plus, they get mixed up. For instance, Condoleeza Rice is a black woman, but she's certainly in a better position than the average lower class white man. That doesn't mean racism doesn't impact her, because I'm sure it does, but race and class are wrapped around people's lives in complicated ways.

I think colleges should pay more attention to making their student bodies more class-diverse, as well as race-diverse. Unfortunately, the opposite is happening right now, and rich kids who have terrible grades have a MUCH better chance of going to an excellent college than a poor kid with good grades -- no matter what race they are.

[MiniMe]

40. Its all about the money. The rich need more and more.

They have to have it all. Thats why the middle class is being destroyed right now.

[deutsey]

43. Here's an interesting overview of poverty in Appalachia, FYI

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/countryboys/readings/duncan.html

Snip

I think that chronic poverty in rural areas, and urban areas for that matter, really represents long-term neglect and lack of investment -- a lack of investment in people as well as communities. And in the rural areas that I know in America, that lack of investment began as deliberate efforts by those in power -- local elites or employers -- to hold people back. Because it has worked for them, to keep their labor force vulnerable, keep them powerless.

In the case of Appalachia, the coal operators wanted to keep workers from unionizing and demanding higher wages in the early days of coal mining because the industry was so competitive. Historians have shown that the large Northeastern utilities and Midwestern utilities were pitting one small company against another. In the face of this bitter competition, coal operators tried to control everything about workers' lives to keep their labor costs down. And part of controlling everything was to not educate people, to be in control of the ministers, the doctors, the stores … and to discourage workers' participation in community life, making the workers dependent on the coal operators for everything about their livelihood and their community.

SNIP
********************************

Regarding which is more important, race or class: it's interesting MLK was killed right around the time he began focusing his efforts on class along with race. I think keeping poor whites and poor blacks divided doesn't serve either group's interest. Who's interest does it serve, then?

Hmmmm.

[AspenRose]

45. Race

And one of the most articulate scholars on the subject of white privilege is Tim Wise (a white guy).

http://www.timwise.org/

[nemo137]

61. We were talking about white priviledge in Sociology today

And about how crime has been racialized to the extent that there's this almost unconscious association between black and criminal for many white people. Being followed in a store, or having whites assume that you're where you are in life because of affirmative action. And most of that I agree with.

I'm going to have to possibly disagree with Tim Wise for a minute, though (I've been reading some of his stuff from the link you posted). I think there's a continuum of white priviledge. All white people gain some sort of advantage. Some whites gain access to an extensive network of social relationships. This continuum tends to correlate with class; like someone else said, they intersect.

The problem is, though, that we haven't even begun to talk about class in this country. We tried at the turn on the 20th century, but haven't since then. We've started to talk about race, and have tried to do something, even if most whites won't even admit to being at all privileged. We haven't, though, even talked about race, even though to many middle- and upper-class Americans, "white trash" might as well be another race.

[justjones]

46. I would argue that race and class are not mutually exclusive.....

but if I had to choose, it would be race. You can transcend the limits of class much more readily than race.

[GreenArrow]

47. Class.

Everything else is divide and conquer.

[Swamp Rat]

48. Both are equally important n/t

[EFerrari]

57. Both important and each morphs into the other at times. n/t

[patcox2]

49. Race

Race race race. Americans are in such denial over race. Blacks can't drive down the highway without getting pulled over, you think that they get a fair shake at interviews?

[crispini]

54. Both.

Race is a HUGE problem in this country, no doubt about it. But CLASS is something that we haven't even begin to really talk about in any intelligent way. People, especially poor white Republican voters, have bought into the myth that "class" does not exist in ths country, that a poor person can, by dint of their own hard work, bootstrap themselves up in life. When, in reality, there is very little migration between classes-- people overwhelmingly tend to stay in the socioeconomic bracket that they are born in. "Making it" is the exception, NOT the rule. But most people tend to deny this in favor of "the American dream." Which is bullshit.

Furthermore, we ALWAYS need people to fill those service-oriented, minimum wage jobs. When we start to come to terms with the fact that 1) It's HARD to transcend being poor and 2) We NEED people to do those jobs -- then that naturally leads to a realization that we need to make sure that these folks are paid enough to take care of themselves and their family.

The problem is that we haven't even started to have this conversation in America. We need to have this conversation. And it applies to blacks and whites together.

[mitchum]

55. CLASS

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

56. I 100% Think It Has ALL to do with Class.

As far as your affirmative action idea, I can't say it's a bad one.

[jeffrey_X]

59. "Race makes class hurt more"

"Race is often the language class speaks"

Thanks to Dr. Michael Eric Dyson for those quotes.

[AspenRose]

65. Michael Eric Dyson ROCKS.

I highly recommend reading his stuff too.

[nemo137]

67. I've never heard of him, what would you recommend? n/t

[Ron Green]

60. It all comes under one heading: The Other.

Fear of the Other is what drives life on earth. The slave masters who control the propaganda use race, class, nationality, body type, you name it . . . to divide people through fear and then sell them a bogus remedy. Our job is to overcome these lies and manipulations by courageously reaching out to others and finding love rather than fault.

End of sermon. :P

[woo me with science]

63. Henry Higgins would say it's all how people speak. nt

[nemo137]

66. When talking about class, that's true.

I remember learning in linguistics that most people, including many southerners, equated a strong southern accent to ignorant.

With race, though, that's another matter.