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If it would take a year or more to do an impeachment - would it be worth it?

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patricia92243 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-08-06 10:39 AM
Original message
If it would take a year or more to do an impeachment - would it be worth it?

If investigations take months, and months, and months - then it takes forever to get it to a vote before the Congress - is it worthwhile to even pursue.

If it will only take a few months off Bush's term in office - why even bother?

I think the attitude of most of America would be "what's the point at this late date?"

I AM TALKING ABOUT IMPEACHMENT ONLY - NOT BEING TRIED FOR CRIMES, ETC. WHICH COULD BE PURSUED AFTER BUSH LEAVES OFFICE. THAT IS A WHOLE DIFFERENT BAG OF TRICKS.

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hobbit709 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-08-06 10:40 AM
Response to Original message
1. It would be worth it
even if he was impeached and convicted on January 19, 2009. It proves a point-that the rule of law is bigger than the would-be king.
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-08-06 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #1
18. Not yet ready for impeachment, alas
But a year or more of Conyers, Leahy and Waxman doing the types of investigation that strikes terror into the heart of every corporate thief in government will prepare the way. In any case, the stress will likely make Stupid's behavior so bizarre that even his own party will grudgingly admit he's a danger to the country.
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Hissyspit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-08-06 10:41 AM
Response to Original message
2. Why even bother?
Justice.
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GOTV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-08-06 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #2
8. What Justice is there in acquitting the president of his crimes?
Until you have 67 Senators on board impeachment means acquittal which means vindication which means the GOP was right and we were wrong.
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novalib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-08-06 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. If, After Being PRESENTED WITH THE EVIDENCE....
If, after being presented with the EVIDENCE (which is in the NEWS EVERY DAY) that Bush and his cronies committed (and CONTINUE TO COMMIT!) the worst types of WAR CRIMES and CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY, enough Rethugiclan Senators do NOT vote to CONVICT THE BASTARDS, then I predict that the AMERICAN PEOPLE will say (once again!) "ENOUGH!!"

Those Senators that REFUSE to CONVICT Bush and his cronies and thugs will simply be VOTED OUT OF OFFICE by an OUTRAGED PUBLIC!!

JUSTICE WILL NOT BE DENIED!
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GOTV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-08-06 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #10
31. Only 51% of the people support impeachment. Not enough to bring justice.
"JUSTICE WILL NOT BE DENIED!"

So you say. If you rush to impeachment without getting your Senators in line first - justice will indeed be denied.

Justice is actually routinely denied.

If the Senators believe that conviction is the overwhelming will of the people, THEN they will vote to commit.

Right now only a bare majority of Americans support impeachment. Given that, Bush will clearly walk if impeached. And he will walk a cleared man. Tried and acquitted.

So if you want justice, changing the will of the American people is the 1st job. Then you have leverage with the Senators. Then you have cover for the congresspeople. Then justice can be served.



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jwirr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-08-06 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #2
20. I like you avatar.
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KaryninMiami Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-08-06 10:41 AM
Response to Original message
3. YES.
They have committed impeachable offenses. Period. They have broken the law. Period. It is worth it and it is what we should all be demanding. Period.
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Target_For_Exterm Donating Member (540 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-08-06 10:42 AM
Response to Original message
4. It sends a message to every other criminal like him that they're
not going to get away with it.

It's worth it.
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GOTV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-08-06 10:42 AM
Response to Original message
5. Impeachment withour conviction is not worth it...
... impeachment with conviction is worth it at any time.
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AndyA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-08-06 10:43 AM
Response to Original message
6. Why even bother?
To set an example. That you can't do what Bush and the Republicans have done and get away with it.

And if this Congress won't do their job, we'll get one that will!

Enough is enough - there are too many problems in this world that need to be dealt with to put up with a bunch of lying crooks running the country.

Democratic or Republican, all should be held accountable for their actions. Justice demands it, and so should the people of this country.
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GOTV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-08-06 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. If you impeach, and he's aquitted then he got away with it.
Many seem unable to grasp this point.

If I kill someone, and I'm tried and found innocent - I got away with it.

Impeachment does not remove a single crook from government - only conviction will.

Where's your 67 Senators?
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novalib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-08-06 10:43 AM
Response to Original message
7. AbsoFUCKINGlutely!!!!!!!
Bush, Cheney, Rice, Rummy and other THUGS in that CORRUPT, ILLEGITIMATE cabal/regime committed WAR CRIMES and CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY!!!

In doing so, THEY LIED to the American People!

They acted like a bunch of ARROGANT FUCKING BULLIES!!

They MUST NOT be allowed to just "leave office"!!

THEY MUST BE IMPEACHED, CONVICTED, then INDICTED and THROWN INTO JAIL, preferably SOLITARY CONFINEMENT FOR A LOOOOOOONG TIME!!!!
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bullimiami Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-08-06 10:50 AM
Response to Original message
11. im cool with investigations whether they lead to impeachment or not
i would like to see actual criminal charges for the lot of them after they are out of office.
both here and in the hague.
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liberal N proud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-08-06 10:51 AM
Response to Original message
12. YES!
These criminals need to pay for their crimes.
VINDICATION!
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307 MMS Donating Member (180 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-08-06 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #12
15. Fathers
The Founding Fathers put that in the Constitution for a reason. But, since the Constitution doesn't seem all that relevant to these politicians anymore!?
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-08-06 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #12
26. Going after the criminals is good. Aiming for impeachment of bush
doesn't accomplish that.

He is not and has never been the root of any of the problems. Go to the source. bush is just a tool.
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The Stranger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-08-06 10:52 AM
Response to Original message
13. YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES
It is our DUTY.
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Norquist Nemesis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-08-06 10:55 AM
Response to Original message
14. Without question! The precedent was set during Clinton
But, there's a world of difference between what they pulled Clinton onto the political carpet for vs. what Bush has done. That this Congress(R) has simply rolled over for bellyrubs from the Bushetals is unconscionable and inexusable! It CANNOT be allowed to continue and future Presidents must not be given a precedent to "lead" in the same manner.
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OneBlueSky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-08-06 10:56 AM
Response to Original message
16. yes, because if we can tie Bush and Cheney up with investigations and hearings . . .
we might be able to prevent them from starting World War III . . .
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-08-06 10:57 AM
Response to Original message
17. I think both Bush and Cheney should be forced to resign
before that, but has the chimp once said, bring 'em on.

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jwirr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-08-06 11:04 AM
Response to Original message
19. The investigations that preceed an impeachment will be worth it.
How else will the blind be healed?
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flamin lib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-08-06 11:08 AM
Response to Original message
21. Hmmm, 30 dead soldiers a month times 12 months . . . nt
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riderinthestorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-08-06 11:12 AM
Response to Original message
22. He's already admitted, on teevee, to 30+ FISA violations, felonies all.
Start there. I don't think the investigation for that will take very long, especially since Leahy is going to make the NSA spying one of his top priorities.
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MannyGoldstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-08-06 11:25 AM
Response to Original message
23. Actually, It Will Be Quick
Bush's major crime was out in the open - trying to destroy the Constitution. It's all in the public record, no investigation needed.

And it's the Rethugs who'll lead the charge - they want him out. Most Congressional Dems, sadly, want him to stay.
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GOTV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-08-06 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #23
33. What world do you live in?
A world where once you are convinced everyone else must be?

Only 51% of Americans support impeacment. That's not enough to convince 67 Senators to end the Bush presidency.

There is a lot of work ahead of the impeachment forces.
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MannyGoldstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-08-06 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #33
37. I Could Be Wrong, But...
Once a few Rethugs flip, all the Dems will have to flip - or else look ridiculous. At that point, most of the rest of the Rethugs will want to jump on the bandwagon, lest they look bad too.

I guess we'll see.
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-08-06 11:27 AM
Response to Original message
24. The point is he and Shooter so deserve it.
We've got the time.
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-08-06 11:44 AM
Response to Original message
25. If going after bush means slowing other investigations and getting started
fixing the mess the corporatists have brought down on Americans, it isn't worth it at all.

bush is just the front man, the expendable puppet. As nasty an individual as he is, he is NOT the root of the problem. Taking him down might feel good sooner, but taking down the real criminals behind him would do the nation more good.

And doing the governing which the GOP has forsaken would be a good way to show the people which party really does have plans and solutions.

bush is, and has always been, just a sideshow diversion. Take the time to do it right and go after the power he fronts for.

And raise the minimum wage, address the erosion of rights, take some action toward better delivery of health care, get rid of NCLB and all the other boondoggles of the bush/cheney junta, and
GET OUT OF IRAQ!. Much better use of the short year before we start campaigning again.

Investigate, yes, but not just with the aim to impeach. America needs to aim much higher than just embarrassing a puppet and sending him off just to be pardoned by his GOP replacement, and he WOULD HAVE a GOP replacement.

If he were to be at serious risk of being removed, he would likely be forced by Baker to resign. Cheney in the oval and his appointed heir as the VP? That is not really a solution for what ails America.

Get to work on un-doing the damage. Investigate ALL the people involved in the criminal activities, and restore this nation's good name in the international community.

Fuck bush. He is not nearly as important as catching the REAL criminals. To go after the puppet is playing into the hands of the puppet masters.
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Senator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-08-06 11:50 AM
Response to Original message
27. It's called having, and standing on, principle. So, yes...
...even if it takes until Jan. 19, 2009. Even if it's after he slinks back home. Even posthumously (yes, really).

In fact, it's the only principle on which this once-great nation was founded: that legitimate gov't power can ONLY be derived from the consent of the governed.

Without impeachment the American People remain "on the hook" for the actions of this never-elected, never-legitimate regime. It doesn't really matter that "people know" that the "consent of the governed" was overuled to put and keep him there. The principle MUST be asserted.

The American People must be vindicated for that which they were not responsible.

It is the ONLY way to begin to Redeem Our National Soul.

Is that "worth it?" Oh yes, well worth it.

---
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yellowdogmi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-08-06 11:50 AM
Response to Original message
28. I am a supporter of impeachment however
if we were assured a careful accounting and prosecution to the fullest extent of the law or all of these treasonous bastards I could for go it. But only if it is a thorough prosecution for all crimes. I do not want a single bastard to get away with their crimes and come back and haunt us all years down the road as Iran/Contra is doing now. I think that instead of impeachment we should all write letters to 1600 Pennsylvania urging * to resign. Much more effective. Less time consuming.
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nosmokes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-08-06 11:55 AM
Response to Original message
29. i can think of almost 3000 reasons why it's worth it. n/t
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mentalsolstice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-08-06 12:03 PM
Response to Original message
30. Investigate the hell out of 'em!
However, it will take a long time. Look, I used to practice law, so I know all about stalling tactics, and that's what Bushco will do. They''ll have a team of very well paid attorneys who will stall every request for paper or testimony. It's not going to be as easy as Clinton's situation. I imagine "it's a matter of national security" will be one of their more convenient stalling tactics. Once the House feels like they have enough evidence to pass articles of impeachment, then you'll have to convince 67 senators. And even if you can manage that, all a conviction does is send him home to clear brush and drink JD. Yes, he'll go down in history with that "impeached and convicted" next to his name, but I have a feeling that won't be enough closure for many.

Now, take him and his buddies to The Hague and to the war crimes tribunal, then we'll really be getting somewhere. We'll have international resources and laws that will govern the progress of the case. And if convicted, hopefully, there will be significant jail time. No Pickles, or Jack Daniels, but a lot of time to read "My Pet Goat".

I'm not against impeachment, but I tend to be realistic about these things...
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GOTV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-08-06 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. You are right. More people should realize the limitations of impeachment.
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pat_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-08-06 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #32
36. Reply #32
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pat_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-08-06 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #30
35. What could possibly more egregious than the war crimes committed in plain sight?
Then the criminal surveillance operation? Then trashing the principle of consent -- the SOLE moral principle on which our Constitution is founded -- with their claim to "unitary" power.

We know all we need to know. The case for the impeachment of Bush and Cheney has been clear, compelling, and complete for years. It is long past time for Members of the House to introduce articles of impeachment and make the case.

Investigations by other committees to root out their co-conspirators and assess the damage done can follow impeachment, or can go forward in parallel. Those investigations are completely independent of impeachment. Congress has a duty to defend the Constitution against the KNOWN attacks -- attacks that are proven in the public record -- by taking up the fight to remove from office NOW.
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GOTV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-08-06 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #35
38. Fact: most people don't care yet.... Ignore the facts and lose.
The fact that you think they *should* care is irrelevant.
That's what you have to work with. Moral indignation is worthless.

"We know all we need to know."

No.

YOU know all YOU need to know. As a characterization of the public in general, which must support the impeachment if conviction has any chance, you are just completely wrong.

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pat_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-08-06 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. Of course -- and the DC Dems are willfully ignoring the facts.
Edited on Fri Dec-08-06 03:30 PM by pat_k
They have gotten very good at it. They been doing it for decades.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/pat_k/8
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pat_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-08-06 01:20 PM
Response to Original message
34. 1) They could be out by President's Day, 2) Defending against the attack on our Constitution. . .

. . .will take as long as it takes. No rationalization can trump the Congressional oath to defend.

And no human can know how events will unfold until they are behind us. They could be out by President's Day if the Congressional leadership gets serious about impeachment.

From http://journals.democraticunderground.com/pat_k/12

. . .Republicans are likely to be VERY motivated to pressure Bush and Cheney to take the resignation "exit strategy."

Republicans may not be willing to defend the indefensible for long. When Bush nullified McCain's anti-torture amendment (which passed with over 90 votes) he slapped them in the face. They would be hard pressed to defend Bush for abusing signing statements nullify the overwhelming will of the people in order to keep torture "on the table." Warner, Graham, McCain, and Collins (may have been others I'm not recalling) came out against the "War Criminals Protection Act." The "compromise" they got was not much of one, it just shifted the responsibility for actually approving torture to Bush (as opposed to approving it themselves and becoming War Criminals). Specter dismissed the WH defense of the criminal surveillance program as absurd. There are some other "rational" Republicans (Snowe, Hagel, and Lugar).

Repubs will certainly try the "Un-Patriotic to attack the President in War time" bit (the only "attack" on impeachment we have heard out of them) but that doesn't go far if Repubs aren't willing to defend against the indefensible charges (which they aren't even doing now).

Bush and Cheney are an albatross that many Republicans would be happy to get rid of. . .

More. . .
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Clintonista2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-09-06 08:26 PM
Response to Original message
40. Dont let revenge blind you
Does he deserve impeachment? Absolutley. Is it worth it? probably not. We would be painted as the "loony left" taking advantage of our new authority. The right is completely disorganized, this would only mobilize them, it would backfire. We need to consider whether it would be worth impeachment if that meant losing any chance of winning in 2008. As people posted above, if he survived an impeachment, it would only make him stronger, and it would spell defeat us.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-09-06 08:32 PM
Response to Original message
41. I think there should be investigations, lots of them, impartial ones
that go in depth, but not necessarily with impeachment in mind, but to see where they lead to. There is so much that we don't know about this administration that I think we should start forcing the truth out of them first.
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Vidar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-09-06 10:04 PM
Response to Original message
42. Hell yes!
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