You say she can't win. I say you are falling into a trap.

[alfredo]

How many people have had to eat crow because they underestimated Hillary's abilities.

Do not underestimate her or her husband. They have the ability to continually frustrate and humiliate their critics.

Yes she can win.

Don't fall into the trap of believing our best and brightest can't win. They say you are what you eat, and others say you are what you think. It's a hell of a lot harder to win if you are sure you will lose. This past election we went in believing we would win. We thought, talked, and worked like winners. We won.


Hillary can win, and so can Obama.

Believe it and act upon that belief.

[LittleClarkie]

1. I just don't appreciate having her shoved down my throat

Not necessarily by you, but by those who have said that she is it, a done deal. I'd like to have the primaries first, thanks.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

27. I agree with you. The Media has defined her as our candidate and I resent

that they are creating the debate.

[LSparkle]

39. Absolutely

Plus she strikes me as more politician than public servant.

[liberalhistorian]

50. Well, that's because she IS more

politician than public servant, and I wish more people would see past her name and recognize that.

[juajen]

59. I seem to remember feeling the same way about

Dr. Dean a few years back. I do understand; it gets very tiring having one person touted as the best and brightest. I love Howard Dean, but his warriors were really over the top.

[LittleClarkie]

60. Indeed, and even now sometimes some of the other potential candidates

"It must be (blank)" or "(Blank) is our only hope" or "Only (blank) can win" et al gets pretty tedious, even when it's my guy, Kerry. I like some substance at least when I'm looking at a partisan thread. Gimme an article, a speech, and appearance, something. Don't just stand there with pom poms in your hands. Ya know?

[quinnox]

2. I think so

It is definitely possible Hillary could win the presidency. Is it probable? I'm not so sure. Besides Al Gore, she is one of my favorite candidates.

[mike_c]

3. I don't *WANT* her to win....

Another corporatist war monger in the White House is the LAST thing America needs.

[Swamp Rat]

29. You took the words right out of my mouth.

[liberalhistorian]

49. LOL! That's great, SW!

eom

[juajen]

61. I'm ashamed that photo is on DU

It hurts me and I'm sure it hurts other DUers who support Hillary Clinton. I hope she doesn't come on here and see it.

[Stu DeBeouf]

62. There you go again...

Swampy...:thumbsup:

[TroglodyteScholar]

31. My sentiments exactly... great minds, etc. n/t

[QuestionAll...]

4. It really creeps me out that if Hillary did run and win...

that last, what, almost 20 years of bushes and clintons rule? and bill apparently be so good a friend to gorge sr.?

I find this so unsettling.

edited for the timeframe. still not sure, tho.

[KingFlorez]

5. I think she can win too

I think if she runs, she'll be much more viable than anyone thought she would be. I don't think we should count her out.

[madokie]

6. If the lady comes out on top in the primaries I will vote for her like I will whoever does win

I like Hillary as well as most of the Democratic potential candidates

[filer]

7. I'd vote against her in the primary.

Being a Yellow Dog Dem, I'll vote Democratic in the general election, but she's certainly not my first choice. I'm a progressive/liberal. Hillary is not.

[porphyrian]

8. Of course she CAN win, but why pick her over the other candidates?

She doesn't represent me best.

[alfredo]

54. that's what the primaries are for. She's not my top candidate

I like Clark but that could change as the primary season rolls on. Let's remember we are winners and so are our candidates.

[Lerkfish]

9. I say, if you're having to work this hard to shove her down our throats

maybe there's a valid reason.

how about leaving us alone until closer to 2008?


thanks.

[alfredo]

15. This topic is about avoiding a defeatist attitude. It's not so much

about Hillary it is about us ripping our candidates apart even before the primaries begin. Hillary can win, Obama can win, so can Clark and Richardson, and Vilsack. It is up to us to believe in our candidates and ourselves.

Act like losers and you will be a loser.

Nov 7 proved we can win.

[fhqwhgads]

10. i can't grant your premise...

...you say not to fall into the trap of believing that our best and brightest can't win.

she may be one of our brightest. but i don't grant the premise that hillary clinton is one of our best. i think we've got better.

and while i do think she could get the democratic nomination with her eyes closed, no, i don't believe she can win. there's a reason the corporate media keep putting her name out there...they know she'll get trampled. notice how nobody mentions gore or clark. it's always clinton and then a bunch of people most have never heard of (vilsack, bayh, etc.).

[alfredo]

18. It isn't just Hillary that gets that can't win the general

bullshit. That's what I am railing against. I'm a Clarkie. I like him a lot. I'm not pushing Hillary.

You've heard of the self fulfilling prophecy? We can't build a winning campaign around candidates if we doubt we can win. Whatever candidate we choose will win. I have no doubt about it. I don't care who it is because our voters are wise enough to choose a viable candidate to carry our party's standard.

Yes it is too early for all this, so I want us to look at each candidate as potential winners, not sacrificial lambs.

I'd rather we put our efforts behind the three 2007 governor's races. We have a good chance to pick up the gov mansion in Ky. You will be hearing more from me about this because I will be calling upon my brothers and sister of DU. We will need your help to win in this red state.

[stlsaxman]

11. George Snuffelupogus has been saying "Hillary" and "president" in the same sentance...

at least ONCE in every episode of This Week since Bill left office.

George, Carville, Donna Brazil, and all the other shills for the DLC ignore all other candidates, especially Gore.

I believe she CAN win, sure.... but I would rather act on Gores behalf, thank you.

[DireStrike]

12. I don't really care if they can win. I plain don't like hillary.

"Electability" gave us Kerry instead of Dean...

[nevergiveup]

13. Obama, yes......... Hillary, no

If she gets a personality change and admits to having blown it on the war, maybe. I watched her response to Kerry's "botched" joke again the other night and it made me sick. She looked mean and foolish.

[sallyseven]

14. I would like a little rest before I think about 2008

I worked so hard on this election. I want time to smell the flowers and the luxury of patting myself on the back for a job well done. Let the dust settle and everyone take a deep breath. In 6 mos we will know who is running and what person we want to see in the White House. Then start the hard job of electing.

[alfredo]

21. I have a couple months to rest until the race for governor here starts

heating up. In Ky we have a good chance of putting a Dem in the Governor's Mansion.

I just want people to quit the negative thought. Every one of our top teir candidates can win the presidency.

[cascadiance]

24. I have no problems with positive thought, but let's think of issues long term...

... not just personalities.

I feel like we're being manipulated into being channeled into thinking about one person as the person to run in 2008. I want everyone to feel they understand the issues that are important for 2008, and then to find the person that's best able to deal with them and lead the party to do so.

One of my top issues before 2008 is to fix our systemic problems of campaign financing, and to put in place public financing to chop out these corporate special interests that plague BOTH parties now and take away from their representation of US on just about every issue. If we can find that right person to lead us to fix this problem, many of the other problems will be that much more easier to solve.

In my book a candidate to beholden to DLC and corporate influence money need not apply! I don't want the DLC manipulating the landscape well before 2008 so that we don't have any choices to move away from their corporate money centric candidates. That is why I think it is WAY too early to "pick a favorite". No need to get negative now, but you WILL get negative pushback from people like me if I feel I'm getting someone rammed down my throats, especially if I think that person is a corporatist that I believe Hillary to be (and perhaps Obama as well). I know that Biden and Vilsack are already. I want other choices. I'll be happy to wait until others show up before I "commit" to anyone just yet.

[alfredo]

33. Yeah, there's so much to do. We can't worry about what potential

candidate can win or not. Still we need to avoid that defeatist attitude we've suffered under for the past few years.

[Alamom]

25. Good luck to you on the Governor's Race. Another Democratic

Gov. in a Southern State would be wonderful.

Great Post, thanks.

[Orsino]

16. What would WE win?

She's another corporatist. Oh, less odious than any GOPer I can think of, but she is part of the problem, and not much of a solution.

[LWolf]

17. No, I don't. I say I don't want her to run, I don't want her to win,

and I won't be voting for her.

I also do not believe that either Hillary or Obama represent our "best and brightest."

I guess my standards are higher than some. That's fine; I don't fall into the trap of lowering them because people assume that the "best and brightest" are "unelectable."

[Malikshah]

19. Or how about the trap of...

being force-fed candidates because beltway insiders know what's best for everyone.

This sort of stuff was discussed back in 2002-2003 time frame with those raising the Clinton in 08 issue being scoffed at...

[Jacobin]

20. I say she's wrong on Iraq

And whether she's a woman, a Clinton, a man, or a hermaphrodite, I don't want her as president

[alfredo]

22. I'm more concerned about us tearing down our candidates. I

don't care if it is Edwards, Hillary, Clark, or Obama. If we are able to convince ourselves a candidate can't win, we are doing a disservice to the candidate and our party.

[MH1]

26. True, but Hillary lobbed a shot at one of them from her bully pulpit.

She doesn't deserve support from any of us.

I will support a more centrist candidate before I will support her - mainly because I have zero faith that she will stick to any principle. She's showed that she has none.

[alfredo]

37. This is not about a particular candidate, it is about the negative,

"she/he can't win" attitude around here.

[MH1]

23. Perhaps she can, but I will NOT support her in the primary.

I will vote for the person I think is the best choice in the general. That will almost certainly be the Democratic Party candidate, even if it is Hillary.

However, I beleive that there are a great many people who despise her so much that they will not be able to bring themselves to work for her.

When I contemplate a Hillary presidency, now that I know the utter shallowness of her character, I despair for the party.

[rug]

28. She's a done deal.

[dogday]

30. A great big Yuckers to that statement nt

[Cha]

32. It's not about if she can win or not..

I don't want her.

[solara]

34. I'm not eating crow, I just know who I like and don't like

I am a fan of HC, I always have been. But, I dont want her to run in the primaries. And right now, I don't think she CAN win the Presidency, so there. If that is defeatest, then so be it. Not everyone in America is a Dem or a progressive... and many who helped us win back Congress this past November are waiting to see what happens, they could swing back the other way just as easily.

She rubs too many people the wrong way. I like her in the Senate, but not as President in '08. Lately. just talking about her is an exercise in devisiveness. It's too early, and already I am sick sick sick of hearing her name as THE ONLY candidate in '08. That's crap and it is pissing me off. I am a progressive dem and she does NOT represent me. I hated how she turned on Kerry.. there was no need to do that. Even the most ignorant fool could tell what he was getting at and she could have used her own considerable power to turn that whole thing around, but she did NOT. So feh...She has disappointed me more than once in the last couple of years.

One thing I DO know.. no matter WHO becomes the Democratic candidate for '08 ( And I doubt it will be Hillary) I will work my ass off to help them win...

By the way, I don't think she is our best or our brightest. :evilgrin:

[alfredo]

38. No matter who is selected we should avoid the trap of

negativity. We are winners and we will win. that's what this thread is all about.

[solara]

43. Surely there is a difference between being negative and being realistic

Please don't assume that people are being negative just because they don't agree with you. Have some faith that when the time comes, we will all work together to get a Dem in the White House. Lots of us worried about this election too, but we came through and we will again.

:hi:

[alfredo]

44. I am only reminding people not to focus on the negative.

I don't want them to get into a destructive frame of mind.

I'm pretty open to all candidates. At this time they are equal in my eyes. I will make my choice as the time nears. Right now I want us to focus on solidifying our gains, retoring our freedoms, and win the three governors races this year.

[JeffR]

35. I don';t think she's unelectable

I just don't want to see her elected.

[WinkyDink]

36. She is not a woman, a person, of the people. No "common touch".

At least, that's how I see her.

I'll give her brilliance, for sure.

[The Anti-Neo Con]

40. I don't want her.

No more war criminals in the White House please!!!

[Raine]

41. Even if she could win, I don't want her

I'm sick of the Clinton's, they're too conservative. Bill Clinton did more for the repukes than he did for our side and I don't want another DLCer. We can do much better than Hillary Clinton. Anyway I would bet 100% that she can't win, she inflames the other side too much and is too divisive within the Democratic party.

[sendero]

42. LOL.....

... there is nothing "best" about Hillary. And if she were all that bright, she'd never have broken the first rule of politics "don't piss off your base". She is mediocre in every respect other than "triangulation".

It is the Republicans' wet dream to get to run against someone they have already made half the country hate with a passion through years of talk show villification. They are doing everything in their power to boost her. I suppose that is because they really care about us Dems. Sure.

[Generator]

45. Ha! Just today I found another unreasonable reason to dislike her

Because she and Bill claim they have "no idea" if she will run for president. LIAR! It's all she's been thinking about for years. Just my humble opinion. Sure, she's sneaky, devious, and underhanded enough to be president, if that's what you want in your presidents. She's also has something in common with Mr. George W. Bush. Delusion! Reality is not something she's interested in or she would save her energy and the Democratic party's energy and be what she is damn lucky to be-a senator.

(Obama is another kettle of fish and has nothing to do with my above comments. I don't like to see them linked.)

[bicentennial_baby]

46. I don't care if she can win, I don't like her

nor do I want her as the nominee...I want Gore...sorry...

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

47. The "trap" is being stuck with a DLC Dem or a Repug.

[liberalhistorian]

48. The only "trap" those of us who

don't want her to run are falling into is reality. She's simply far too polarizing, doesn't have nearly enough support outside of strong blue areas, and even a lot of Dems consider her to be too conservative and right-leaning as a senator. She may have a lot of support on DU and other liberal sites, but this isn't the real world and outside of the liberal blogosphere she really doesn't have, and will never have, enough support. There's a reason why the right considers her a dream candidate and why they're so anxious for her to be the nominee, you know.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

51. She's a respected and loved Senator, but I don't want her as President

I'm not sure if it's that many here don't think she's electable, or if it's just that she's taken one too many steps to the center for many here on DU. For me it's the latter which makes the former irrelevant.

I accept that she's going to be running. I also accept that she has a chance of winning the primary and even the general election for president. But, until the end I will say I do not want her for President of the United States.

[elocs]

52. Are you talking about Senator Clinton and Senator Obama?

Look for this very same argument to be rehashed over and over again here for the next year or more.
I sure wish that somebody would come up with some new arguments.

[alfredo]

53. I'm not talking about them in particular. I am talking about

the defeatist rhetoric. We don't want to plant the idea that we do not have confidence in our candidate(s).

[elocs]

55. I must have been thrown off by:

"Hillary can win, and so can Obama."

[alfredo]

57. It was my 2X4 up side the head.

I want people to think who can win, not who can lose. I want them to understand we are winners, Nov 7 proved it.

A loser will not be the product of our primaries. Yes, I said that Hillary and Obama can win. So can any of the ten that have shown interest in running.

[Imagevision]

56. Well, you know what they say: Obama Happens...

[FlaGranny]

58. I don't want to

hear the screams coming from my best friend and my husband if she does win. They both hate her and neither one will vote for her, and they're both Democrats. Neither will vote for the Republican either. They just won't vote. I'll vote for her and I don't hate her at all, but I fear my husband and friend are not alone. I have yet to meet anyone who is enthusiastic about her. Sorry to say.

[Warren DeMontague]

63. I not only believe our BEST and BRIGHTEST can win, I know that

He WILL Win.

[Roland99]

64. If Hillary won, America would LOSE, big-time!

[suston96]

65. You know what bothers me....?

You never see or hear Republicans trashing their prospective presidential candidates the way Democrats are doing around here, and that other place. I wonder why that is?

You think maybe it's because the Republicans are aggressively robo-daring the Democrats to nominate Hillary, and are hoping that the Democrats react just as they are, with this incessant and boring "hate Hillary" blather?

I knew I shouldn't have skipped those mob psychology lectures in college.

[loyalsister]

66. Good points.

She is skillful. And we shouldn't count her out. I think we definitely shouldn't assume either would be defeated in the general.
Hillary isn't my favorite, but she has a lot of political "on the ground" experience and money on her side.
From a practical perspective in terms of maintaining a sense of confidence maybe we should assume anyone "can" win despite any flaws we may see in their candidacies, etc.
"Why not?"