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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-29-06 12:25 PM
Original message
Evo Morales wants to bring back public whippings
Edited on Wed Nov-29-06 12:27 PM by cali
or floggings, or whatever you want to call it, for certain criminal punishments.

Sorry, I can't support corporal punishment, not even to solve real problems.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/world/20061128-110529-7023r.htm
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DavidDvorkin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-29-06 12:28 PM
Response to Original message
1. I agree
This is barbaric and absurd.
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Ezlivin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-29-06 12:30 PM
Response to Original message
2. Oh goody! Can we also see if witches float, too?
America in the 21st Century: Restoring Medieval Justice.

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dipsydoodle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-29-06 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #2
11. She'd only float
Edited on Wed Nov-29-06 12:48 PM by edwardlindy
if she weighed the same as a duck.:rofl:


Entire script here : http://bau2.uibk.ac.at/sg/python/Scripts/HolyGrail/grail-05.html
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-29-06 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Thereby confirming that she's made of wood. nt
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B3Nut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-29-06 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. She IS a witch!
She turned me into a newt! I got better....

:D

Todd in Beerbratistan
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obreaslan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-29-06 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #11
27. " Who are you who are so wise in the ways of science?"


:rofl:



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dipsydoodle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-29-06 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #27
39. Arthur...............Arthur who ?
'alf a brick, 'alf a mo, 'alf a side of bacon, etc etc. :rolf:
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-29-06 12:31 PM
Response to Original message
3. I wouldn't trust the Washington Times on South American leftists.
I don't have time to check this out. Just sayin. Let's wait to find out what he really said, okay? (--if anything.)

(Note: If it was the punishment for "high crimes and misdemeanors," I might go for it.)
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-29-06 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. That's a good point
The WT is definitely not unbiased.
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-29-06 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #3
13. BBC (not about his speech, but a programme from Bolivia)
"When we had attorneys from the Western justice system, they put people behind bars for 20 years," he said.

"Those with money bought good lawyers and didn't go to jail so what kind of justice was that?

"It's much better to give someone a few lashes and be done with it."

One of President Evo Morales's biggest campaign promises was to revolutionise the justice system.

He vowed to promote pre-Columbian community-based courts in which village elders try wrongdoers and determine how they should be punished.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/crossing_continents/6173268.stm
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-29-06 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. Wouldn't be hard to guess how many people would choose, if given
a choice between the elder's way, and a long time in jail for something a wealthy man does no time at all!
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peacetalksforall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-29-06 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #3
16. Agree - Wash Times? Red flag goes up. Needs to be checked out.
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mom cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-29-06 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. Agreed!
This Moonie rag cannot be counted on to tell the truth about South America where Moon has substantial holdings.
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peacetalksforall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-29-06 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. We opened military bases (or base) in Paraguay under the guise
Edited on Wed Nov-29-06 01:35 PM by higher class
of cross-border terrorists on the Argentina-Brazil side of Paraguay, but it's pretty obvious from the wording of the articles that the U.S. wants the gas and natural resources of Bolivia. Someone in the Republican Party thinks the U.S. should own Bolivia. We have soldiers in Paraguay. And the owner of the Washington Times has purchased millions of acres in Paraguay. He subsidizes the Washington Times by taking money from many sources, including his devoted, hynotized acting followers who turn it all over to him He claims he is the King of Christianity. He sells nuclear parts/supplies to North Korea.
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mom cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-29-06 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #20
26. Bush has just bought a little 100,000 acre spread in Paraguay.
They know that global warming is real and are building a " safe place" over one of the world's largest aquifers to keep their little buttshigh above the warming ... they hope. The other largest aquifer is below Centcom in Colorado.
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Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-29-06 12:33 PM
Response to Original message
4. Do you have any source OTHER than an EXTREME RW rag? Even Fox News would be more reliable than THAT.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-29-06 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #4
10. It's also owned by Rev. Moon, for chrissakes!
Couldn't get more twisted than that.

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maddezmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-29-06 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #4
14. It was mentioned before by the BBC here:
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grizmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-29-06 12:33 PM
Response to Original message
5. give em bush, he's says that's just "enhanced interrogation"
pull an extraordinary rendition on W and see how he enjoys getting enhanced
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Raiden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-29-06 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. OMG Your sig pic is the funniest thing I've ever seen
"Oh the huge manatee!" :rofl:

:toast:
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grizmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-29-06 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #9
19. full size version of the pic
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-29-06 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #19
24. Have you seen this thread?
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grizmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-29-06 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. ha! added my pic to the mix
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valerief Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-29-06 12:34 PM
Response to Original message
6. Public S&M today, public golden showers tomorrow. Where will
it end?
:silly:
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MannyGoldstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-29-06 12:35 PM
Response to Original message
8. Screw Whippings - I Want Public Stocks & Pillories
I'd love to get a few hours in the public square with some Rethugs...
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sabbat hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-29-06 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #8
21. whats next
hanging people from yard arms? draw and quartering? bring back the stocks?
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RethugAssKicker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-29-06 01:57 PM
Response to Original message
22. Are you suggesting supporting American hegemony
and imperalism instead?
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-29-06 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. Bwahahaha
No. I don't support corporal punishment. Period. You wanna call that hegemony or imperialism of cultural insensitivity go right ahead. Corporal punishment simply codifies physical violence.
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RethugAssKicker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-29-06 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. Its their choice. I'd like to see it practiced the way
they used to practice it.... We've never seen it because they have not had control
of their country for 500 years...

Maybe in the long run, it could be a better judicial system overall?..

But, The WT is probably just doing what RW rags do... stir up contempt for the newly elected "leftist".
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-29-06 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #25
30. What kind of barbarian are you?
Edited on Wed Nov-29-06 03:15 PM by originalpckelly
People should not be whipped...period.

The fact that you would excuse this because someone on the "left" (which I don't think anyone espousing corporal punishment is) pushing it, is sick.

We do not believe in that...period.

And by the way, the BBC is NOT a rightwing rag, and it has also reported this.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/crossing_continents/6173268.stm
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RethugAssKicker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-29-06 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #30
43. What is barbaric is the treatment they have received from
Western murderers for the last 500 years....

Maybe their form of punishment will be better than locking a man up for 20 years and ruining his entire life...

I choose not to judge so quickly, and switch sides based on this one policy.
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rinsd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-29-06 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #25
33. Just to be clear, you are okay with whipping as a punishment decided by village elders?
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RethugAssKicker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-29-06 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #33
45. It may be more humane
than being locked up in a slimy prison for years, and tortured and abused daily.

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0rganism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-29-06 03:05 PM
Response to Original message
29. Might be preferable to the Bolivian jails...
Edited on Wed Nov-29-06 03:12 PM by 0rganism
I haven't checked for myself, but everything I've heard, seen, or read about Latin American prisons seems to indicate that they are not places to go for quiet contemplation and behavioral reform. Some would obviously be nastier than others...

I can see what Morales means about the adversarial justice system being abused to favor the wealthy, but a community-based justice system of public floggings seems like it could be abused as well. I doubt his sentiments would lead to any major reform, tho. He's probably looking for ways to unload the jails.
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-29-06 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. DING DING DING DING DING! We have a winner!
He's not at all interested in a more humane punishment, all he wants to do is empty those crappy jails. There are ways you can protect the poor without whipping them.
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-29-06 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #29
35. Check out his new Justice Minister
Former maid Bolivia's new justice minister

LA PAZ, Bolivia --At age 13, Casimira Rodriguez left her hardscrabble rural home, hoping to escape poverty by taking a job as a housemaid in the city. What she got instead was a nightmare of virtual slavery, and a first-hand view of the injustice many poor Bolivians experience.

Barely an adolescent herself, Rodriguez cooked, cleaned and looked after the children for an extended family of 14 people. She was not paid and was allowed out only to buy groceries down the street, she says. After two years, Rodriguez escaped and brought her case for wages owed before a rural court. The judge asked her to be patient. A quarter century later, she's still waiting.

It's possible Rodriguez might finally get some satisfaction.

She is Bolivia's new justice minister, intent on overhauling one of Latin America's most overburdened, corrupt and inefficient judicial systems.

http://www.boston.com/news/world/latinamerica/articles/2006/04/21/former_maid_bolivias_new_justice_minister/
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0rganism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-29-06 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. there's some very sad stuff in that article
"Bolivian police regularly demand bribes from crime victims before pursuing their cases. The country's criminal courts refuse to hear 96 percent of the cases that come before them, and those that do go forward often end up delayed to the point that the courts lose their credibility, the Washington-based nonprofit Partners of the Americas said in a 2005 study.

"A full 64 percent of Bolivians have little or no faith in their justice system, according to a February survey by the Apoyo Opinion y Mercado firm, which says the figure was as high as 84 percent just two years ago."

---

So there's plenty of reasons to reform the system somehow, and it reads like some of that "community justice" is happening anyway. I dunno if codifying corporal punishment is the way to go, but it probably won't be anything more drastic than what's already happening under the table.

We have so many of our own problems with prisons and justice; it seems kind of weird that we'd suddenly be so concerned about Bolivia's system which has apparently sucked rocks for decades, if not longer.
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-29-06 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #36
40. You are completely correct, corporal punishment is not the only way...
to reform a prison system. I would dare say it is one of the worst ways that it could change, even in Bolivia.

(I actually had a very good high school friend from Bolivia. His name was, get this, FABIO! But he seemed to be one of the lucky ones, whom had enough money to escape the poverty of the country.)
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-29-06 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #35
42. DU'ers discussed this lady early this year.
The article is interesting:
~snip~
Bolivian police regularly demand bribes from crime victims before pursuing their cases. The country's criminal courts refuse to hear 96 percent of the cases that come before them, and those that do go forward often end up delayed to the point that the courts lose their credibility, the Washington-based nonprofit Partners of the Americas said in a 2005 study.
(snip)

It doesn't help that Bolivia spends a meager 1 percent of its national budget on the judiciary -- one of the lowest allocations in Latin America, according to the Organization of American States.

"The vast majority of (legal) conflicts don't reach the system," said Cristian Riego, academic director of the OAS's Justice Center of the Americas. Those who suffer most are indigenous people and workers in the informal economy.

Rodriguez says she'll fight to boost spending for the judiciary and make it work for the poor, who account for more than 60 percent of Bolivians.

She also wants greater respect for traditional Indian justice systems, still used in much of the country, where community elders hear cases and decide on sentences that can include corporal punishment.

"Community justice is so different from the ordinary justice system," said Rodriguez, "because you don't spend money and even though it's not legally recognized, it resolves cases in hours, or at the most in a week and doesn't add to the quarrel, it's more fraternal."
(snip)

Until Morales' election, the country's politics were dominated by Bolivia's European-descended elite.

"This is recognizing a sector that has been passed over, disdained," Rodriguez said. "I think it was hard to name a traditional Indian woman, a domestic worker, and it's offended some, but many people have celebrated. Flowers are still arriving at my office."
(snip/)
It's time Latin America got the chance to make its own decisions without the long, gnarly noses, or the round hog noses of American power snorting down their necks and over their shoulders.

I can't wait until they all pull free and build their own governments without interference.
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underpants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-29-06 03:19 PM
Response to Original message
32. Sounds like the Christian Reconstructionists
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KingFlorez Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-29-06 03:28 PM
Response to Original message
34. It's a different culture
They view things differently than we do. They can do whatever they want.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-29-06 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #34
38. You're damned right, there! Mocking poor people of other cultures with
wildly different histories, including decades of oppression by our own idiot Republican Presidents, has always been a great sport for people of limited abilities who have time to ridicule and criticize, but not the time it takes to do the necessary research.

It's a real racists' field day feeling far more important than poor people in other countries. That's why it has always been so easy for our right-wing pResidents to throw so much taxpayers' money at cover ops, and financing death squads WITHOUT A WORD OF PROTEST from these same people who do have the time to feel naturally superior.
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-29-06 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #38
41. I didn't know being against whipping someone was an intolerant position...
Maybe those Saudis and their public executions should be respected as well? (You know, it is a different culture.)
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-29-06 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #41
44. What I am against is the U.S. overseeing all aspects of Bolivian life,
training their military at the GODDAMNED TORTURE-TEACHING SCHOOL OF THE AMERICAS, and calling the shots in their government.

I don't intend to allow you to screw around with me. Don't even try it.

If you have something to say, say it directly, and don't waste everyone's time with inane yammering like: "I didn't know being against whipping someone was an intolerant position..."

Many of us are far too busy to play childish games.

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chaska Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-29-06 03:44 PM
Response to Original message
37. What's that expression? "Let it begin with me"?
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-29-06 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #37
46. There's also "Think Globally
act locally." It's ridiculous to say we shouldn't have opinions about things outside of our own country.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-29-06 04:22 PM
Response to Original message
47. For those lurking freeps who can't be bothered to learn about Bolivia's history,
one little glimmer may help you on your way reading one abbreviated look at one of Bolivia's previous "Presidents:"
COLONEL HUGO BANZER
President of Bolivia
In 1970, in Bolivia, when then-President Juan Jose Torres nationalized Gulf Oil properties and tin mines owned by US interests, and tried to establish friendly relations with Cuba and the Soviet Union, he was playing with fire. The coup to overthrow Torres, led by US-trained officer and Gulf Oil beneficiary Hugo Banzer, had direct support from Washington. When Banzer's forces had a breakdown in radio communications, US Air Force radio was placed at their disposal. Once in power, Banzer began a reign of terror. Schools were shut down as hotbeds of political subversive activity. Within two years, 2,000 people were arrested and tortured without trial. As in Paraguay, Argentina and Brazil, the native Indians were ordered off their land and deprived of tribal identity. Tens-of-thousands of white South Africans were enticed to immigrate with promises of the land stolen from the Indians, with a goal of creating a white Bolivia. When Catholic clergy tried to aid the Indians, the regime, with CIA help, launched terrorist attacks against them, and this "Banzer Plan" became a model for similar anti-Catholic actions throughout Latin America.
(snip/)
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/US_ThirdWorld/dictators.html





Americans have NOTHING in common with Latin Americans who have lived through hell due to the meddling and violent interference from our right-wing idiots. They will develope much more along lines which heal their countries if Americans BUTT THE #### OUT.


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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 12:56 PM
Response to Original message
48. The subject line of this OP distorts the content and TITLE of the WT article.
Here's the WT title: "Inca justice system eyed by Morales may use whipping".

Can this be rightfully changed to: "Evo Morales wants to bring back public whippings"? (Is "eyed by Morales" the same as "Morales wants to"?)

Further, the WT article itself, in its title, distorts what is happening in Bolivia. Compare the WT title and opening paragraphs to the content of paragraphs 4-7 (see XX):

"Inca justice system eyed by Morales may use whipping"

"Bolivian President Evo Morales, on a state visit to the Netherlands, said he is searching for a new model of democracy that could include reviving the ancient tradition of whipping petty criminals as an alternative to jail.
    "'When I was a kid I was punished several times, being whipped and lashed,' the leftist president said Monday in a speech to an audience of businessmen and government officials from both Bolivia and the Netherlands.
    "'Whenever I did something wrong, I received punishment with a chicote , and always believed that the system our ancestors used was better than the system in the northern justice system. It's much more democratic,' he said.
    (XX) "Meanwhile, some 5,000 Indians from across Bolivia converged on La Paz, the capital, yesterday to demand that opposition lawmakers approve a sweeping land reform bill proposed by Mr. Morales.
    "Some demonstrators had walked as far as 300 miles in marches begun several weeks ago from the Andean mountains and plains of Bolivia, culminating in yesterday's rally in the capital.
    "The demonstrators were seeking to put pressure on Mr. Morales' conservative opponents in the Senate who have blocked his proposal to redistribute millions of acres of unproductive land to the country's landless poor.
    "Mr. Morales, elected with strong backing from his Andean nation's Indian community at the end of last year, promised during the campaign that he would look to traditional practices to make the justice system more equitable."

-----

Meanwhile...MEANWHILE!...people are WALKING THREE HUNDRED MILES to pressure the fascists in the Senate to give them some land to farm!

Meanwhile. Why isn't THAT the headline? Poverty-stricken indigenous Indians--whose forbears have been ignored, marginalized, brutalized, excluded, oppressed and killed by fascist death squads for 500 years--WALK THREE HUNDRED MILES to their capitol for a bit of justice.

Walk!

Does that tell you something about what's important in Bolivia right now? About the TOTAL lack of services in poor rural areas? About the CONDITION of the people who have to devise their own ad hoc justice system because NOBODY GIVES A !@#$ WHAT HAPPENS TO THEM?

Secondly, consider what Morales is SEEKING, in his own words: "...to make the justice system more equitable." "It's more democratic" (the rough justice of the Incan elders).

By dignifying the elders' justice system--recognizing it, formalizing it--he's trying to bring the GOOD aspects of Incan culture into the "mainstream." You only have to look at Evo Morales to know that he would not approve of cruel punishment, or excess/abuse, or lynching. What he's saying is that the village system has many things to recommend it--it WORKED--and, in view of Bolivia's BROKEN justice system (and it really is broken--the previous rightwing rulers created a totally corrupt disaster of the courts/jails)--it's BETTER than the mess they have. "...to make the justice system more equitable." "It's more democratic."

About his personal experience (he got a few flogs himself from the village elder ropes, and considered it fair--feels he needed that correction as a youth): I have a close friend who got whacked a couple of times by his Mom (at age 8-10)--and now considers it to have been FAIR. In his opinion, she wasn't cruel--she was JUST. He furthermore identified with her plight (she was supporting the family, at a time when that was especially hard for a woman--1930s-1940s). I knew her. And I would say that he's right--she was not a cruel person. I think there is a huge difference between what is perceived as fair/just, and what is perceived as unfair/cruel, in physical punishment. Physical punishment is not a good thing, in my opinion. It leaves scars. But the NATURE of those scars is very important. To put it rather absurdly: If you perceive such an assault as fair, you go on to become president of your country, or, in the case of my friend, a brilliant professor and poet. If you perceive it as cruel/unjust, you might build up rage and become a criminal--the sort of thing we often see in the backgrounds of violent criminals (cruel beatings, etc.). Of course, other factors come into play, too--many other factors. But just as a rough rule: what's happening to you, mentally, is the most important factor in your perception of physical punishment.

I think there is a touch of masochism in both of these men's justification of the physical punishments they received as youth (both Morales and my professor friend). The punishments obviously did no serious damage to them. It maybe drove them a bit inward--into introspection, and self-criticism (not unattractive qualities). But it certainly did not damage their self-confidence or their empathy. At worst, it makes them perhaps a bit myopic about the potential for abuse in physical punishment, and the capacity for cruelty in others. (Because it didn't hurt THEM, it must be okay?)

I'm a mother--kid all grown up now. And I was one of these very modern, peacenik Moms who abhorred the mild physical punishments I witnessed as a kid, and determined to raise my kid differently. I read a lot of books, and consulted my own deities, and completely re-thought the whole business of how we regard (and treat) children. It worked out beautifully, on the whole. But, one day, when I was walking down the sidewalk with my two-year-old, he bolted into the street (where cars frequently sped by). I grabbed him by the scruff of the neck with one hand, and whacked his behind with the other. It was PURE INSTINCT. He must not...he ABSOLUTELY MUST NOT go running into the street! If I had had time to think it out, I might have devised a non-violent way to teach the lesson. I had no time! And, anyway, he really could not understand the danger he was in. But I was totally amazed at my action. I had hit my kid!

Thus, I learned what NON-CRUEL physical punishment is all about. I never did it again--but I have absolutely no regret about that incident. I know in my heart that it was an instinctual, mammary, LOVING whack. I also should say that I was in privileged circumstances. I had the luxury and time to think most things out. I didn't have to WALK THREE HUNDRED MILES to my capitol city to beg for a bit of farmland to do hardscrabble labor on, to feed my family! (--nor was I a lowly, underpaid secretary in the 1940s, who had to endure bosses groping me up, to feed my kids!).

Imagine you live in an isolated village high in the Andes, haunted by hunger, frozen by cold, and all you know about the outside, white/European-run world is that, when you go there, you are, a) despised, hated, held in contempt; b) are subject to being beaten, raped, 'disappeared,' at the slightest excuse or no excuse; and c) if you commit the slightest wrong--steal bread, look at a policeman the wrong way--you could be stuck in a filthy jail for 20 years and subjected to the basest cruelties that the fascist state can inflict.

As the parents and elders of this village, you MUST teach the youth not to steal or misbehave. Their lives may depend on it. Further, NO ONE cares about you or your village. And what would seem like a relatively minor crime to urban dwellers--someone stealing someone else's goat, for instance--might mean life or death (or, in any case, serious hardship) to someone living off the land in the Andes. How do you stop this from happening? How do you create justice in these difficult circumstances? You have no courts, in any formal sense. You have no jails. Jails in the Andes would be absurd. You have no money for jails or police. Who would feed the jailbirds? Who would heat the jails and keep the prisoners from freezing to death? No one can afford it!

So, just using a little imagination, we can see how the elders' simple justice evolved, and WHY. The guy who stole the goat has to give the goat back, plus some wool. He refuses. The elders convene and go TAKE the goat from him, plus some wool, and give it back to the old woman he stole it from. Then he steals somebody else's goat. What do you do with him? No courts, no jails. You MUST stop him from doing this. You consider the circumstances. He is hungry. He is crazy. His wife just died. You know all about him. You know WHO he is. You determine that he's just mean and greedy, and needs to stop. You sentence him to ten flogs, and carry it out. Then the old woman comes forward, says she feels sorry for him, and promises to share goat milk with him, and give him her goat's next kid--she says she can do without it.

All of these people have to keep living with each other. To exile someone is not possible in the Andes--they will die. Things have to be worked out. And, consequently, people do NOT become lifetime criminals--or chained up, mistreated, abused, in cruel prisons, never to see the magnificent mountains or the goddess of springtime ever again.

It's rough justice, but not cruel justice. It includes the humanity of all individuals. It seeks wisdom, not punishment. "...to make the justice system more equitable." "It's more democratic."

I'm certainly aware that village justice can get out of hand--can become mob rule, lynchings. And physical punishment can get out of hand--easily. (That's one of the reasons I so disapprove of it--the inflicter of physical pain can so easily become a sadist; hurting someone else can become addictive, and extremely unjust.) I'm a woman, and know what women have suffered through the ages. I also know how "village justice" in our own southern states turned into barbaric oppression of black citizens. I think what Morales is saying is that, in his view, this has NOT happened with "village justice" in the Andes. It is not mob rule. It is more like well-intended, non-cruel parental correction. He sees wisdom in it. He wants to bring that sense of reality, of equity, of democracy INTO the disastrously unjust, unreal, undemocratic official justice system.

The BBC article has a photo/story of an event that apparently WAS mob rule (included in this news report on Morales' policies). So it CAN happen. But then....how many people in the U.S. have been executed for something they didn't do? How many have been imprisoned for 10 years, 20 years, after being unjustly convicted? No justice system is without error. Ours is one the worst in the so-called civilized world. How fair is it, of the BBC, to highlight this example of "village justice" gone wrong, in an URBAN area (the city of Cochabamba), where vast populations of extremely poor, displaced people are forced to live, due to massive U.S./World Bank/corporate destruction of Bolivia's economy? These urban dwellers are far from their villages. They are trying to maintain rural village ways and values in a cruel urban setting. It's literally all they have--their togetherness as a community, their communal ability to stop the "petty" crimes that make the lives of the poor miserable. Is it fair to judge the ancient Incan justice system by this measure? And is it fair to highlight these instances of mob rule out of context?

Both of these articles--WT and BBC--seem to jump at the chance to slander Evo Morales, to peg him and his new leftist government as cruel and primitive--when all he said was that he sees more equity and more democracy in the ancient "village justice" system that he knew as a youth, than in the BROKEN justice system run by the state, and he's looking for ways to IMPROVE the justice system. He did NOT say he APPROVES of flogging. He said it was better than going to jail!

"Whenever I did something wrong, I received punishment with a chicote , and always believed that the system our ancestors used was better than the system in the northern justice system. It's much more democratic," (Morales) said. (--the WT article).

The Incan justice system that he experienced is "better than" the state's justice system. "It's much more democratic."

This OP title--"Morales wants to bring back public whippings"--and the WT and BBC article titles and story focus really very seriously distort what he said and what he intends. The BBC title: "Bolivia goes back to the whip" is just plain wrong, and unfactual. "The whip" has always been there. It has been used for thousands of years as one sort of punishment for crime. Also, it's not a whip--it's a rope. (Big difference!) The WT title is a bit more fair: "Inca justice system eyed by Morales may use whipping." It's still a distortion, and sensationalist. He is recognizing INCAN JUSTICE, giving it proper attention in Bolivian culture and law. He did not say that it is always equitable and democratic--or right, or just. He said that it was MORE equitable and democratic, etc. "Much more." Also, this ancient system of justice was aimed at wisdom, fairness and community order--not at enriching the rich and oppressing and punishing the poor. It has many different ways to create justice and equity. And, since it forbids capital punishment, and never contemplated jails, one can presume that "the whip" (a rope) was/is a last resort, when all else fails. Morales says as much.

"'During the Inca empire,' Mr. Morales said with a broad smile, 'a community-based court system led by the village elders punished vandals and other criminals for their wrongdoings and determined how and when they would be punished. // It mostly ended in a few lashes, like the one I received when I was a kid. They did it for my own good. Look where I am today." (--the WT article)

I'm reminded, too, of the whip used in some schools of Buddhism, to keep students alert during meditation. I don't approve of it, personally--but it is not ill intended, as far as I know. It's not intentionally cruel, in other words. It's a reminder.

The BBC article (despite its wrongful title) is a bit better than the WT article, in quoting other Bolivian government figures concerning the problems in the justice system that they are struggling with. The notions of Incan justice, and trying to find the best justice system, and deal with the horrors of the state system, are on the minds of a number of people. It is something the government is working on. And those who are working on it are not unaware of these incidents of "mob rule" in urban Cochabamba. This is NOT some weird policy that Evo Morales invented--whipping people! That sounds so bizarre. Both articles in their titles try to personalize it as some strangeness of Morales'. But at least the BBC article makes clear that this is a government-wide effort to IMPROVE the justice system, not to create some new and cruel punishment.

As always, with the corporate news monopolies--and often with the BBC as well--you MUST ask what their motives are in their titling of stories, the focus of their stories, and their choice of stories. Slandering the South American leftist revolution is a favorite sport of northern/western news organizations. Billions and billions and billions of dollars are at stake--in Bolivian and South American oil, gas, minerals and other resources, including the vast resource of potential slave labor that the World Bank/IMF has created. The BBC may have some measure of independence--under assault, recently, by the way (by the corporatist Blairites)--but they know who's paying the bills, and British capitalists can be as predatory and as conscienceless as our own. This BBC article barely rises above the crap one reads in the WSJ, Washington Post and AP articles about Hugo Chavez. It does not speak well for the BBC. I'd say the Blairites have gotten to them. They are no longer the more or less objective source they once were.

The WT not only focuses on Morales, re: the "whipping" issue, rather than on Morales' government and the problems it is trying to deal with, it highlights the "whipping" issue, pushes the 5,000-person march for land into secondary position, and places the following item at the end of the article:

"Bolivian Energy Minister Carlos Villegas, in The Hague with Mr. Morales, declared that foreign investors are more than welcome in his country. // Asked by The Washington Times whether that applied to U.S. investors, Mr. Villegas said yes, 'as long as they play the game our way. That means a 15 percent profit for them and 85 percent for the state.' // The minister said his government was looking for heavy direct investment in the mining, construction and agriculture sectors."

85% for the people. 15% for the capitalists. Bolivia is open for business, as long as the terms are just. And if the terms HAD BEEN just, prior to the election of Evo Morales, Bolivia might have had some money to create a decent court and justice system.

But this point is never made, and barely rises to consciousness, as the reader's attention gets twisted into contortions by the matter of ancient Incan justice clashing with our modern sensibilities. You have to think hard to get it. And you also have to think hard and have some background in anthropology and a few other subjects to truly understand how these articles are playing you: Incan justice (no capital punishment, no jails) vs our modern sensibilities (which tolerate state murder--just or unjust, we don't seem to care--and truly horrendous modern jail conditions).




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