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First Vietnam.. .then Iraq. Will there be a Third Time?

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baby_mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 06:34 PM
Original message
Poll question: First Vietnam.. .then Iraq. Will there be a Third Time?

I suppose I felt, growing up long after Vietnam was over and done with, that the lessons learned from it had sunk into the American psyche from the ground level up. I grew up in the 80s with the deep-seated feeling that we had DONE all that stuff with WWII and so on and it was time to grow up now, and for things to get better. What illusions can be sustained about warfare in front of that black wall?

Will it happen again? Will the US populace let some new reincarnation of Johnson or the Neocons wave flags at them, returning when the chips fall right to cast themselves as saviours of America?

Sorry, polls are turned off at Level 3.

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baby_mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 06:49 PM
Response to Original message
1. I'm suprised.

And disturbed.

I thought "Never again" would do quite well.
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drm604 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. People believed that after Vietnam
and they were wrong. It's hard not to be cynical.
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baby_mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. Perhaps agressive optimism would prove to be a self-fulfilling prophecy. nt
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drm604 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #6
15. Half the damned country didn't learn the lesson from Vietnam.
All the optimism in the world from the rest of us wouldn't have made a difference.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 06:53 PM
Response to Original message
3. Probably.
This is why I'm in favor of impeachment.

This talk of "revenge" is bullshit. Noooo, it's not revenge. It's so it doesn't happen again.
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HCE SuiGeneris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. Damn right it's not revenge! It is about
accountability for felony crimes.
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baby_mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 07:48 PM
Response to Reply #3
19. I get that. NT
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iamahaingttta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 06:53 PM
Response to Original message
4. This IS the "Third Time."
You're forgetting about Korea.
The "war" that keeps on giving.
It's been going on for over 50 years now, and is still not "over."

Of course, these things have been happening now for thousands of years, and will keep happening until the species becomes extinct.

Get used to it, kiddo...
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baby_mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. "get used to it"? nt



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iamahaingttta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #8
21. Yes, baby_mouse...
...get used to human beings doing utterly stupid, horrible, violent things to each other and themselves. It's one of the constants throughout history, and it's not going to stop in your lifetime. If you want to be a reasonably healthy, happy and well adjusted individual, you MUST accept the fact that this is true, and do what you can to keep you and yours from falling victim to, or perpetrating the stupid, horrible and violent things that we are ALL capable of doing.

Sorry...
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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. Fourth and fifth times...Spanish American war was based on lies itself...
And fueled the idea of "American Empire" post-Manifest Destiny. The Mexican-American war fueled Manifest Destiny itself. We seem to love fighting wars for Empire.
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Buck Rabbit Donating Member (999 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. Giving a pass on 1812?
That one seemed pretty elective to me..

Most of the "Indian Wars" ..

As for lies to make the case for War, Bush I and the babies thrown out of the incubators was a heart tugger...



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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Look at post 10. n/t
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Buck Rabbit Donating Member (999 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. Yes, I see that, Sorry it wasn't there when I started typing my post.
When you type with your nose it takes so long to respond, these things happen. Glad to see we agree.


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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. The post you responded to was my "quick response" so to speak...
I immediately thought of the War Lincoln voted against(and cost him re-election), and our second major overseas adventure(Hawaii was technically first, but the Federal Government wasn't COMPLETELY responsible for that till later).
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benddem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 06:54 PM
Response to Original message
5. hey they are still
ginning up for a war with Iran. Cheney can taste the blood.
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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 07:11 PM
Response to Original message
10. Vietnam wasn't first...
You could argue that the War of 1812 was first, both sides declared "victory" so to speak, during that conflict. Then there was the trumped up Mexican-American war, then the Constant "Indian wars" of the 19th century, then the Spanish-American War, which helped fuel the Modern Empire, then we fought many different, smaller wars, in Mexico and Central America, to keep our cash flow going. Next, skip over the World Wars, even Korea, straight to Vietnam, same shit, different excuse, and then onto Iraq, not once, but TWICE we fought a war there for BS reasons.
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baby_mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Indeed. I was thinking more "in living memory"...
Edited on Tue Nov-21-06 07:17 PM by baby_mouse
...assuming, perhaps naively, that living memory might prove useful for something.
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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. Not really, nothing really changed since soon after the country was founded...
We are extremely Jingoistic, and will go to war with pretty much anyone at the drop of a hat.
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Doctor_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 07:30 PM
Response to Original message
17. Read one of Michael Parenti's tomes
The Sword And The Dollar, or Against Empire. These are not accidents, or ill-conceived. They're nothing more than a way of moving money from working stiffs like us to the pockets of the ultra-rich. The American treasury is bankrupt, but Cheney's friends aren't.
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VOX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 08:00 PM
Response to Original message
20. As long as the military-industrial complex gets buddies in the White House, it'll happen...
Every now and then, these idiots get the idea that starting chaos somewhere in the world is obscenely profitable for them.

As long as that possibility is on the table, there will be additional quagmires, not to mention hundreds of thousands of lives lost. :grr:
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baldguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 09:20 PM
Response to Original message
22. As long as America is a military power with few rivals
We will have freepers - and their equivalents - that will itch to use that power, and try to impose their will on a small part of the world.

Sometimes they'll even get elected.
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Disturbed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. The Colonization of Afghanistan isn't going real well
either.
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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 09:22 PM
Response to Original message
23. It may be that the United States will not be strong enough to screw up in this way.
Generally great powers fall from hubris. When was the last time Japan invaded someone?

I think the damage to US capabilities resulting from the worst President ever is probably irreversible.
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