Anybody Else Thinking That Rangel Is Pissed About The Treatment Of...

[WillyT]

the volunteer army???

I mean... I was extremely happy when we converted from a draft to a volunteer military. And I was so, in part, because I could not believe that ANY politician would be so bereft of morals, as to manipulate a volunteer military into a bullshit conflict like we had just experienced in Vietnam!

Not sure Rangel has all the answers, but I tend to understand where he's coming from.

Just a thought.

:shrug:

[Donnachaidh]

1. has anyone thought that instituting a draft just might wake up the country?

It just might get those morons driving the SUVs with the yellow ribbons to start PAYING ATTENTION if their children face the very real fact of a draft?

Let's face facts here - as long as the armed services are filled with kids who don't touch their lives in a big way, they will continue to ignore waht is going on, keep using those ribbons, and let the Bush Cabal continue with this insane war.

I don't want a draft -- but it will be one MASSIVE wake up call to both parents and children.

[Mythsaje]

2. Has anyone thought that the last election

might have indicated that the people ARE awake?

[MikeNearMcChord]

3. What we really need is to ban the president

from just sending troops to some hot spot, for more than 30 days to six months, in other words this is the job of the House of Represenatives, to declare war.

[Xipe Totec]

4. I do

I fully support Charlie Rangel's position on this.

He expressed it before we went into Iraq and I agreed with him then.

Spread the pain around. Let's see how hawkish the 'pugs really are, when it's their kid's in the line of fire.

[brer cat]

10. Unfortunately that will never happen. See George W Bush

escape into a safe unit in the states, and go awol even from that. Crashcart getting numerous differals, even Bill Clinton not serving. There will be a few but not many who will be drafted.

[Xipe Totec]

14. What you say is true

But that will only piss off the public more.

When your own child is put in harm's way, involuntarily, and a bunch of draft dodgers get a free pass, that's when you start asking the hard questions like:

"Why the f**k are we in Iraq, to begin with?"

[MichiganVote]

6. They just reversed the entire Congress those voters you have such contempt for

[Donnachaidh]

11. what contempt are you talking about?

The election was a start.

But the fact remains, we have kids coming home in coffins we *don't* see on the evening news. We have kids coming home with missing limbs. We DON'T see the full story on this war.

A draft would force people to really take a stand. It would force people to stop choosing *political* sides, and start making choices on personal sides -- the fate of all our kids.

[MichiganVote]

17. Oh come on. Read your own posts. I don't drive an SUV but I don't

catagorize people who do as unfeeling or without a conscience. The American public in or out of SUV's voted in favor of change re: Iraq. They made it plain, fix it or get it gone. If Democrats favor a draft they'll say 'what don't you understand about change?' Those chose a political side--ours. Now the plan is to endorse a bullship draft on top of a bullshit war?

Totally nonsensical and the GOP and Media will have a field day.

[Donnachaidh]

19. you just proved the point I was trying to make

We need to stop with worrying about what the other side would *do*, and take measures to be sure that everyone feels the *pain* of this war. NOT -just- the kids signing up for college money, only to come home with brain trauma or limbs missing.

Until that happens, we'll continue with the political p*ssing contests and our troops will continue to die.

[MichiganVote]

21. Madam I believe you are mistaken. We are and will all feel the pain of war.

[Donnachaidh]

22. your opinion

we don't have to agree on this. But I see exactly where Rangel is coming from.

[MichiganVote]

24. And I see exactly where this will go...nowhere.

[Donnachaidh]

25. again -- your opinion

do you have a problem with others voicing theirs?

[spanone]

40. Does anyone remember when we had a draft? We STILL went to war.

VietNam. 60 THOUSAND of our folks died. Love it or leave it. The yellow ribbons get bigger and the bullshit gets deeper but it won't stop a bush* from going to war and it won't stop people from supporting it.

[MichiganVote]

5. Rangel is a big mouth idiot. Wrong idea, wrong timing

[Ethelk2044]

12. Draft

Rangle is correct. If the Senators and the House of Representatives knew their children would have to fight a war that they support they would think twice before going to war. He is right in making them think. If if was their sons and daughters we would not be in a war to date. They would have found reasons for not going to war. He realize the wealthy are not enlisting in the military. Therefore Rangle is only stating facts. When Chris Matthews held a town hall meeting he asked the students if they believe and supported the war. Just about everyone stood up. He then asked who will be volunteering to join the military. Just about all the students sat down except 5 students. This shows you Rangle is not wrong. It only proves the saying is " Sure as long it is not my son or daughter."

[MichiganVote]

20. So you want to say that Rangel is correct. That a few hundred

Congress people will have to fork over their kids to a draft. So have you checked to see how many actually have kids TO fork over? How many of the wealthy have them available? Will they be the grunts or the officers who command the grunts? See if they have a college degree, they'll be officers. The same deadbeat young people you decry will be in charge of the hapless poor and middle class kids. Dig it?

We did this. It was called Vietnam and it was a complete and total mess and contrary to popular opinion around here, the draft alone during Nam did not end the war.

[walldude]

18. Gotta disagree... while I'm not sure I support

bringing back the draft, I do know that when kids start seeing their friends go off to die they will get more involved in the anti-war efforts. There have been hundreds of threads berating this generation for not getting involved, while I think that's generalizing and many kids are involved, you can bet your ass that when those notices start showing up in the mail the rest of them will be out there yelling and screaming.

[MichiganVote]

23. When exactly were kids told to "get involved" in this war?

Was it when Democrats and Republicans united to vote to give * the powers he has? Was it when the president and his lackeys promised that shock and awe would bomb the WMD out of hiding in Iraq? Was it when the media reported that Saddam Hussein was a tyrant after our very government supported him for years? Was it after Mission Accomplished? Maybe it was when Cindy Sheehan camped out in Crawford? Oh that's right, 19 year olds don't exactly pay attention to middle aged women who piss off the secret service and make the back pages of the news.

Now that we're losing, suddenly they're supposed to "get involved". Sure, lived through this one before. It was called Vietnam and the same illogical reasonsing was used then.

[walldude]

26. Get involved in the war?

No what I said was a draft would get kids involved in the anti-war movement. I don't want to see a draft either but I see Rangles point.

[knowbody0]

7. that voluntary army

is mostly kids who cannot afford to get the heck out of dodge in any other way, poor kids mostly who believe the recruiter that sells them the concept (be all that you can be) Lyndie England comes to mind.

To abuse these kids with three combat tours is unspeakable, to abandon those who come home broken is unforgivable. IMHO, Rangel is attempting to wake up the sheep who do not think about things that do not touch them in a personal way. I think he is a wise man with the greater good as his compass.

[Art_from_Ark]

9. If that's his complaint, then he's going about it the wrong way

Calling for a draft is like daring the other side to open Pandora's box. There should be other ways to bring the plight of our troops to the public's attention.

[knowbody0]

33. that other way has NOT worked

in the mean time the war drums beat and the blood runs. sometimes, ya gotta shock people.

[Art_from_Ark]

38. And sometimes, someone calls your bluff

It is not worth the risk to go about it this way. We're going to have subpoena power in a month and a half-- we should use that to investigate the war and bring the public's attention to what is happening.

[gratuitous]

8. Who's going to object to a draft?

Except, of course, the folks who aren't volunteering right now. We've got a lot of poor and middle class folks joining up to "get money for college" and hoping they don't get their butts shot off if they get posted to Iraq. So that just leaves upper class and elite kids who aren't by and large sacrificing anything, and don't need to earn money for college.

Now, who do you suppose would be objecting most vociferously to a universal draft?

[Donnachaidh]

13. Exactly!

that's the whole point!

[MichiganVote]

15. Me. I pay for this government too and I don't like it.

You don't like the values of the rich and not so famous,fine. You want them to change, ok. You want the war in Iraq over? Well a draft is not an exit strategy. Its a draft, its conscription. Its expensive, unnecessary and it won't fly. All it will do is alienate voters.

[gratuitous]

35. Being in the Church of the Brethren

It hurts my heart to contemplate that we're spending over a billion dollars a day on defense when we have people without adequate food, clothing and shelter in our own country, not to mention the grinding poverty a large portion of the world's population lives in. It's immoral.

But we blithely continue to squander billions each week, thinking that our military might protects us in ways that acting out our principles doesn't. We clearly rely far too heavily on military power and too little on our belief in freedom, liberty and rule of law. Under this criminal regime currently running our country, and the current state of our society, we're way overdue for a national conversation on how best to relate to the rest of the world. And perhaps the place to start is with a draft; if our military strength is so integral to our national security, then people from all social and economic strata of our society should be compelled to support it with their tax dollars and their children.

If that's not savory, then let's continue the conversation: Is our country more secure when we're bristling with armaments, or when we secure the blessings of liberty not just for ourselves and our posterity, but for other countries as well?

[MichiganVote]

36. So your question is if our country is more secure when we are bristling

with armaments or if we are more secure when we espouse and exhibit liberty for ourselves and other countries? Correct? Good.

Then you won't mind my pointing out that in your equation of who pays for these armaments, that's you,me, and the very young draftees you endorse, some are not exactly enjoying equal liberty.By your logic I understand that you have no problem denying liberty and posterity to the youth of THIS country for the sake of the hungry and the homeless in other countries who pose NO risk to you or me. Not only that, for the sake of some fantasy that the "draft" is going to magicaly transform this war, future wars and even the world as whole, you are willing to endorse this scheme. Plus, you propose that a draft will compel a mere dialogue on the idea that the rich and famous youth are not fulfiling this mission on earth that you have given them. You're certain of that even though you probably have no idea what the income levels of anyone who has served are, families included.

Sure. And to think I thought the neocons overindulged in science fiction. Dare I point out there is a simpler solution to this predicament. We pack up and leave. They don't want us there.

[gratuitous]

39. I probably said that inelegantly

The point of bringing up the draft is to have us take a look at the society we've constructed. Right now, we're spending over $400 billion a year on defense, and yet we don't appear to be any safer. But are these decisions that we have consciously made, or have we been stampeded into the chimera that more armaments equals more security? Do we even evaluate that equation? What might cause folks to take a look at that idea? The possibility that our insane foreign policy decisions -- based on an overweaning confidence in our destructive capabilities -- might be re-evaluated if there was a more direct connection between those decisions and citizens' every day lives.

Now, we don't fill our vehicles with the actual blood and bones of the people that have been massacred for our rapacious appetites. But the prospect of a draft might bring about a more rational national conversation. I'm not sure of very much, except that our current policies aren't accomplishing their stated ends. Either we need to change those policies or at least be honest about what those ends are.

[BrotherBuzz]

16. Willie T, a volunteer Army is more susceptible to abuse than a citizens' army

Historically draftees have kept the military on the straight and narrow. By calling a spade a spade, they keep it clean. Without their "careers" to think about, they can't be easily bullied or intimidated as Regulars; their presence prevents the elitism that otherwise might allow a Regular army to become isolated from the values of the country it serves. Draftees are not concerned for the reputation of their employer, the Army (in Vietnam they happily blew the whistle an everything from phony valor awards to the secret bombings of Laos and Cambodia); a draftee, citizens' army, so much a part of the history of America, is an essential part of a healthy democracy, one in which everyone pays the price Of admission." - Colonel Hackworth

That being said, I do agree that Rangel is pissed about the treatment of our fine people serving in the military.

[Strelnikov_]

31. I Think Ambrose Also Wrote About This Effect

In WW II of course.

[Marr]

27. We have a volunteer force now because our government doesn't want

the general population to pay attention. When there's a Draft, people tend to ask questions about potential military actions. They tend to actually give a shit. People don't right now.

Is it a good idea to institute a Draft right now? I don't know. It'd certainly wake people up, but it might enable the Bush Administration on some level as well. And you know the draft would end the moment the occupation ended. The ideal situation would be to end this occupation and then re-institute the Draft. We wouldn't have anymore moronic, ideological wars for awhile, I guarantee you.

[man4allcats]

28. Charlie's been running this scam for awhile.

I first heard about it some months ago and posted about it here on DU. Some folks who knew his game plan explained it to me in their replies. Rangel's district includes Harlem. He has no intention of getting his constituents' collective asses shot off. Further, he knows that upper income families will be beating their senators' and representatives' doors down to oppose this legislation. It's not a question only of rich senators and representatives not voting for it to keep their own kids from getting sucked into the whirlpool. They won't vote for it because their constituents will crucify them if they do. So why propose it? Simply to point out the hypocrisy of support for this war.

You want an exit strategy? Rangel's got one. If you support this war, send your kid to fight it. Send your kid; not just poor black kids from Harlem and other members of the disenfranchised but your kid. That's right, the one who's currently working on a graduate degree (there are no college deferments with Charlie's bill - see SEC. 7. INDUCTION EXEMPTIONS). Rangel knows full well this bill will not be supported, and the timing of this announcement couldn't be more appropriate. McCain is now igniting his 2008 presidential bid and yet he claims we need to send more troops to Iraq? Let's see how he fields Charlie's challenge. He will cut and run in the face of the voters, and when he does Charlie will say, "Well then, if the American people - all the American people - aren't willing to pay for this war with the lives of their sons and daughters, then maybe we should just get out." Charlie's no dummie. It's a smart move.

[Old and In the Way]

29. You want to get the youth of America to pay attention?

Get a draft bill in Congress. Every kid in America will suddenly learn where Iraq is on a map. Seriously, I hate this war and I have 2 kids of prime draft age. I never hear them or their friends discussing the war. I don't hear much from the parents, either. When I was 16-18....there was a lot of discussion about the war.

Get a draft bill in Congress, and suddenly everyone has a vested interest in bringing this immoral and unjust war to a close.

[Jed Dilligan]

34. And they will vote against the party that introduced it nt

[Strelnikov_]

30. Make Wars Of Choice A Third Rail Issue By Attaching A Third Rail, The Draft

The volunteer military should be maintained at such a level to maintain a viable peacetime defense. Any authorization to deploy the military at a wartime footing shall include an authorization to draft the required number of troops to replace the peacetime contingent going to war. Upon cessation of the wartime footing, the draft will end.

Think there would have been all the flag waving enthusiasm about going to Iraq if there was a risk of little Preston or Ashley being one of the 140,000 drafted for the war?

Unless there is a built-in mechanism for immediate sacrifice, there will be politicians willing to beat the war drums and place the cost on the national credit card and the manpower burden on the economically disadvantaged, immigrants and mercenary armies.

[badgerpup]

32. Rangel is saying "Put up or Shut Up."

...and not just to the chickenhawks in Congress.

I remember seeing quite a few threads here where certain basement-living, orange-genitaled members of the 101st Flying Keyboarders were recommended to put their money where their mouths were.

It won't pass. But it will force a lot of people to take a stand one way or another.

"You want 20,000 more troops? Fine. But this is the ONLY way you're going to get them, because we're outta people.
So...you still want to 'stay the course', or shall we pick up our marbles and come home?"

[greenbriar]

37. here

"There's no question in my mind that this president and this administration would never have invaded Iraq, especially on the flimsy evidence that was presented to the Congress, if indeed we had a draft, and members of Congress and the administration thought that their kids from their communities would be placed in harm's way," Rangel said.