I'm not prepared to tell other cultures how they should conduct themselves.

[Skidmore]

Dammit. Enough is enough, and we do it here on DU too. America has it down so well? Huh? We're such paragons? We have a rot at the center of our own culture. Like it or not we have our own share of lying, stealing, sexual crimes, drug cultures, oppression, and you name it going on. Our leaders have individually and collectively in recent history worked to strip rights from the people. We have waged war over lies and for profit, not higher moral principles. We worship youth, beauty, and mammon, and go to extremes to maintain and attain all. Yet, we can sit back and decide that the rest of the world's cultures--many millenia more ancient than our own--are somehow less deserving or must have norms or economic structures to mimic our own. Who are we to sit here and decide which culture is good or bad?

Edited to add that we do the things we do in regard to other nations and cultures out of sheer economic interest. Pretending nobility or moral superiority does not hide those motives. We would be better served to just acknowledge that and quit pretending that we are somehow superior to all the other peoples of the earth.

[cali]

1. Who are we?

Some of us are discerning, thoughtful people. We recognize that our society is deeply flawed, but don't see that as enough of a reason to seal our mouths about things we view as important- even if they happen half a world away. I am not going to shut up about rape or genocide. Although I'm not terribly interested in the great DU burqua wars, there are issues I have no trouble identifying as oppressive, such as female genital mutilation, or women being prosecuted when they're the rape victim, or the persecution of gays and lesbians. Recognizing our own society's flaws, does not dictate that we turn away from those suffering injustice and bigotry.

[Skidmore]

2. I do agree with you. I am just sick to the core of the

idea that we have as a nation a that we are somehow morally above the rest of humanity and that we have all the answers and should be prescriptive rather than respectful in our dealings with others. When we do not do more than recognize our flaws and refuse collectively to correct them in meaningful ways, it becomes hard to justify pointing to the flaws of others.

[jody]

3. The US is multicultural. Does your statement apply here? If so is that not

similar to the goals of libertarians?

National Platform of the Libertarian Party

Preamble

As Libertarians, we seek a world of liberty; a world in which all individuals are sovereign over their own lives, and no one is forced to sacrifice his or her values for the benefit of others.

We believe that respect for individual rights is the essential precondition for a free and prosperous world, that force and fraud must be banished from human relationships, and that only through freedom can peace and prosperity be realized.

Consequently, we defend each person's right to engage in any activity that is peaceful and honest, and welcome the diversity that freedom brings. The world we seek to build is one where individuals are free to follow their own dreams in their own ways, without interference from government or any authoritarian power.

[Selatius]

4. I am.

The notion of tolerance and equality becomes a meaningless notion if we are to have tolerance for intolerant views and tolerance for inequality. You either apply your principles consistently, or you give them up. If somebody came up to me in Paris in 1960 and said, "I believe in equality and tolerance, but I'm not going to tell South Africa what it should do about it's Apartheid or tell America what it should do about its segregation," I would say that he believes in neither.

If we're talking about the cultural tradition of female genital mutilation or forcing women to wear burqas or having a caste system centuries old like in India or a cultural tradition that holds women as inferior as in many parts of China to the point where people have had abortions for the fact that the fetus is of the "wrong sex," of course, I'm going to say the idea of equality, especially equality of the sexes, and tolerance is better to what they're offering.

If you ask me, it's OK to judge the values of human equality and tolerance against intolerance and inequality. It is like saying, "All men are created equal except Jews, Blacks, Catholics, Muslims, ..." and so on. It becomes hollow words.

[Skidmore]

6. I would argue that we don't apply those principles consistently

and that makes them meaningless in and of themselves. We do not do it within our own culture, which makes it impossible to apply outside of our culture. They are hollow words now. The only principles we apply consistently right now are economic ones--capitalism and free markets solve all ills.

[Selatius]

8. I am not talking about "we." I am talking about "you."

What are your principles with respect to apartheid or aborting fetuses because they are female, for instance? I am not interested in what the fucking government's stand on it is or what the people's stand on it is. I am interested in what you have to say as an individual.

Your principles are a very personal thing. They demand that you fight for them. Just because America has racists does not detract from your principle of human equality. You don't throw up your hands and say, "Oh, there's too many racists. Let's simply dump the idea of tolerance and equality and tell Oscar Schindler that he was better off not helping Jews live or tell Martin Luther King, Jr., to stop fighting against Jim Crow."

When you stand up for your principles, you may find that you may stand up alone. It may not be an easy thing to do, but that's what makes principles what they are. You may even die for having the gall to stand up as many have in the past. It only takes one to hold a principle, not a population and not necessary even a whole country. It just takes one.

It can be difficult. It can be so goddamn difficult to be the only one who stood up to be counted when the time came to be counted. It's hard, but it's the hard that makes them worth fighting for.

[Skidmore]

9. I have stood and fought alone...

many times for what I believe to be right and against some pretty extreme odds. But it is the collective "we" that seeks to remake the world right now, and from a very screwed up sense of what "we" stand for as a nation.

[Selatius]

13. Then don't speak for the nation, speak for yourself only.

If they won't listen, that's not your problem. The fact that you speak out alone satisfies what your principles demand of you because it is likely somebody heeded your message, even if it was only one other person. That's not much, but take it from somebody who lives in the Mississippi countryside and has experienced hate, it's sometimes all you get for your effort, but if I died tomorrow, I'd be at peace that I at least did something, even if nobody listened at the time. I'd be saying the same thing I'm saying now if this was 1964 in Mississippi instead of today.

I am not sure, but I would say the more a person learns about the world, the less happy he becomes about his world. It seems to be true of a lot of activists I know. Otherwise, they wouldn't have become activists to set right what they feel is wrong, and that journey, by nature, tends to be a lonely one. I know that must sound profoundly painful to hear, but when you stand up, you only have your body to command. If you find others happened to stand up with you, that's fine. If you find you were the only one, just as well. As long as you do what you felt was best, that should be all.

[malaise]

12. Sadly you are 100% correct

How can any country that has been responsible for the slaughter of so many people and the violation of basic workers' rights at home and abroad even use the words human rights in a sentence. How can a country with so many of its own citizens locked up in prisons speak of freedom.

It is the utter hypocrisy that has led to the shattering of myths about the US' so called moral higher ground. it is US foreign policy and the atrocities of its corporations that have led the rest of the planet to throw out the baby with the bathwater. And yes there are positives about Western societies but until US governments and their transnational corporations begin to practice what they preach, most of the world will conclude, as they already have, that as long as the US controls our resources at minimum cost, they do not care about the level of cruelty they, or their corrupt cronies (aka governments in more than a few developing countries) inflict on others. All this rubbish about freedom and democracy is being ridiculed because the words are wonderful but deeds are what affect the lives of millions on this planet and when words are the direct opposite of deeds, people eventually see through the charade.

For the global sheeple, the only good thing about the Bush regime is that he and his goons were and are brazen enough to practice this naked aggression, bullying and theft of resources overtly and not covertly like his predecessors.

[pnwmom]

5. What do you think about multi-cultural issues within

our own borders? For example, the immigrant from Egypt who cut off his daughter's clitoris with a scissors. Now they're demonstrating in Egypt for him to be retried.

Or the case of the doctors here from the Phillipines, who held a woman enslaved for 19 years -- then argued (fruitlessly) that it was acceptable in their culture.

We certainly stand on shaky ground when we try to argue moral superiority to other cultures. But don't you think we have the right within the US to make laws that apply to ALL people here, regardless of the customs or laws of their country of origin?

[Skidmore]

7. We have much to do within our borders. Let us clean this

house first. We have not yet learned how to apply equality and justice in a manner that doesn't involve who can afford to buy them.

[pnwmom]

34. That's certainly true. But not always in the way you mean.

For example, the Duke students who are being prosecuted only because their parents are wealthy. Nifong must have thought he had hit pay dirt with three rich white kids to indict right before his primary.

[WinkyDink]

10. In general, I agree. Example: Iraq. In certain speciific cases, I disagree.

Example: the inhumane treatment of females in too many nations; slavery; killing endangered species for "cures"; etc.

[malaise]

14. But aren't the most endangered species

our basic food supply which is being destroyed by Montsano et al.
And who have depleted our planet of water, fish, etc.
Certainly not the poor folks of the earth.
So who decides which treatment of women is inhumane? The Free Zone companies tied to US corporations who won't allow women to have bathroom breaks or lunch breaks; The IMF and World Bank who deny our governments the right to pump money into health care, childhood medicine or education? Is humane or inhumane merely a matter of what is done to the female parts or does the survival of the majority of these women's children actually matter.

Truthfuly, the entire planet is fugged up, but I certainly will ignore advice from those countries on the planet who have fugged it up the most.

[WinkyDink]

15. I think you know full well that "female circumcision" as a "cultural

thang" is something to be reviled and campaigned against, because it is sadistic TORTURE.
But then, your describing this as "merely a matter of what is done to the female parts" might indicate you don't.

Yes, there is the MUCH larger picture, which the looking at too often, IMHO, results in nothing done, paralysis, talk, talk, talk.

[malaise]

31. There are many inhumane acts towards

women that should be reviled and female mutilation is one of them. When the majority of their kids don't survive beyond age five, when AIDS is killing millions, you tell me which of them the victims would rather have as priority. Should we not start with what offends them and not us.

[sam sarrha]

11. the end of Iraq war is a done deal, Killinger rang the death nell. it will end soon

see the post above at 6:19 am, and the Colon Pal being fired over criticizing the war... it is a done deal, they just have to figure out how to spin the stink of shit off the republican party having started it

[Skinner]

16. As long as there is tyranny and oppression anywhere on this planet ...

...whether it is in our culture or in other cultures, I am prepared to tell other cultures how they should conduct themselves.

I am a big supporter of tolerance and multiculturalism and respect. The world could use a lot more of it. But I absolutely refuse to accept the notion that oppression should be accepted or respected simply because it exists in someone else's culture. Or in my own culture.

The fact that my own culture is imperfect does not mean that I am required to accept the injustices of any culture.

[matcom]

20. we then should have been invaded during slavery

violently, by every country who could pull it off. and probably again during the civil rights movement.

i'm for POLITICAL and HUMAN intervention in other nations. that (by my definition) eliminates Tanks but that is just me

[AZCat]

22. Yes - two wrongs don't make a right.

Just like Saddam's evil deeds were worth condemnation, but that did not give us the authority to go kill a bunch of people (both ours and theirs).

[Skinner]

26. I did not say that I supported invading other countries to do so.

The topic of this thread is "I'm not prepared to tell other cultures how they should conduct themselves." The operative word being "tell." The fact that I am prepared to tell other countries how they should conduct themselves does not mean that I support invading them to try to force my will upon them. I wouldn't completely rule it out in the most extreme circumstances, but as a general rule I do not support doing so.

[Crim_n al]

28. Where does invasion come into this argument?

A group of English Quakers fought long and hard in the battle against slavery.
Not with guns, but with information, persuasion and demonstrations.

Were they wrong to do this because England was not a perfect society either?

[KittyWampus]

17. You can mutilate a woman's self just as violently as her genitals

[Rosemary2205]

18. Oh bullfeathers.

The very idea that one has be perfect before one has a right to call attention to injustice is just silly. If any culture, including my own, becomes well known for honor killings, throwing acid on women, raping women and then doing even more horrifying things to them in the name of "war", rapes babies as a cure for HIV, or as in own own culture, routinely beats up and locks up masses of one particular ethnicity (blacks) then I'm going to raise hell. And you better believe I am far from absolute perfection myself.

[Crim_n al]

19. How tolerant should we be, in your opinion?

If you walk past a man bashing a woman, will you ask if this is his cultural tradition
before deciding whether or not to do something about it?

If girls are being kept imprisoned in their family home, as two Muslim girls I know locally were,
would you be understanding, because this was traditional in the country their parents came from?

If a father spreads the legs of his 2 year old daughter, manages to somehow find her tiny infant clitoris, and chop it off with scissors, thus ensuring a major source of enjoyment is gone for the rest of her life, should we be understanding because some people believe this is a worthwhile tradition or religious obligation?

Or should we be ready perceive injustice and defend the weak from assault whenever we encounter them, whatever excuses are given?

[Skidmore]

21. You really miss the point.

Go back and read #12. Malaise got it.

[Crim_n al]

27. That's hardly an answer, so I'll ask again ...

How tolerant should we be?

[VelmaD]

23. Tell you what...you sit and wring your hands...

over how awful our culture is. I'll work on changing not only our culture to be more egalitarian, but the rest of the world as well.

[Skidmore]

24. Who are you to say

that I am also not working on these issues. I'm saying that we have no room to hold ourselves up as "the" model for any of this and we should stop pretending that we hold the solutions to all of humanities problems.

[VelmaD]

25. Well that's not what your OP implied

You may just have worded your thread title badly, but it implied that we shouldn't be working to stop utterly abhorent practices in other cultures just because our own isn't perfect.

[Pavulon]

29. When in rome,

do not cut your kids genitals with scissors. Do not refuse service to someone who has a guide dog. Do not impose your values (any person) on me. I will do the same.

As for world politics, genocide, mass murder I think the us should be proactive.

We killed people in yugoslavia to prevent more killing. We should be in darfur, should have been in Rwanda.

[Pavulon]

30. "you are not even niggers, you are just africans" Hotel Rwanda

America does not give a shit about the congo, darfur, or other places where they should.

Western values promote freedom of expression. dissent, even when unpopular.

My buddy wore a a shirt on 11/1/2001 that said "I still hate george bush" in rural nc to go dove hunting. Lots of dirty looks.

No agents hauled him off.

Do not underestimate the value of the system we have here.

[dogday]

32. Should other countries interfere with us....

We are one of a handful of countries that put people to death... Should other countries interfere with us and our government because they disapprove of that?

[etherealtruth]

35. Yes, there should be sanctions, formal objections ...

Worldwide condemnation and political pressure should be applied.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

33. “In matters of conscience, the law of majority has no place.” Gandhi

The American track record on human rights is abysmal. So is that of Britain, France, China, Vietnam, Iran, Congo, Belgium, etc, etc, etc.

Just because the "culture" accepts, and endorses, such things as the oppression of women, torture, racism, greed, etc, doesn't make it right for those who suffer.

That Bush and his cronies and apologists are evil doesn't mean that the likes of Saddam or Mugabe or the Sharia laws in Suadi Arabia, or the guy who beats his wife in Sudan with "cultural" approval, aren't.

All injustice by the powerful against the weak, no matter where, should be opposed.

[treestar]

36. You are right, there are individuals who are exceptions, but as

a culture, due to our fearless leader and those who elected him, we have been acting like pompous asses to the world since 911.

[lumpy]

37. The question : what is the solution for changing

abhorant cultural practices against women and children, physical torture of human beings, imprisonment without charge or trial or, last but not least, the 'collateral' killing of humans during warfare?