Does it worry anyone else that this failed president....

[last1standing]

is now taking his guidance from another previously failed president? I remember the first bush presidency and it was horrible. It just amazes me that his son has done such a bad job that everyone's fawning over bush the elder and his ability to pull the lesser out of the muck. These are strange days indeed.

[NOLADEM]

1. Bush Sr. did a great job with Gulf War I

He had international consensus, we spent almost no money on it, got billions from the rest of the world to pay for it, lost very few lives, achieved the mission, and didn't get involved in an occupation or provoke a civil war or terrorist haven.

Say what you want about Sr, but these are the facts on Gulf War I, which is why I welcome the influence, when compared with our current path.

[misternormal]

2. Bush Sr. had a great commander in the field in Gulf War I...

... I think the credit for that belongs there.

[Catch22Dem]

3. He had a good group advising him on what to do...

and more importantly what NOT to do regarding Iraq in '91. And he LISTENED!

[WinkyDink]

6. AND we attacked a nation, Iraq, that was JUSTIFIED in ITS attack

on oil-thieving KUWAIT.

IOW, praising Poppy for attacking Saddam, our friend at the time (cf: "Handshake: Rumsfeld, Donald"), for his legitimate defense of his economic security and sovereignty, strikes me as off-base.

[Jade Fox]

9. delete

[conscious evolution]

13. I wish more people knew about Kuwait stealing Iraqi oil. nt

[last1standing]

7. There's also the fact that bush sr. is the reason for the war to begin with.

He told his ambassador to let saddam know that we wouldn't help Kuwait if he attacked. That's what gave him the green light from the start. Then there's the pesky fact that we entered a war to protect one dictator from another. Oh, and for some reason I seem to remember the oil companies making record profits then as well.

I agree bush the elder did a great job with Gulf War I, but only if by "great job" you mean he was able to enrich his sponsors at the expense of poor people's wallets and lives.

[reichstag911]

14. That would be April Glaspie...

...who informed Saddam that the US had no position on the Iraq-Kuwait border dispute (see http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/ARTICLE5/april.html ). If memory serves, Kuwait was also slant-drilling across that already disputed border.

Kudos to #6 & 7 for not succumbing to the line that Poppy did a grand job in Iraq I.

[tbyg52]

16. Exactly

I am glad this is coming back to light. There were several years when a search for "April Glaspie" on the internet got NOTHING. (I know because I kept doing it, just out of morbid curiosity.)

[Cha]

33. Right...I can it was put on war

to boost ol' poop head's ratings..too bad he lost.

[Bad Penny]

15. amen

it's also been documented that cheney fabricated alot of the 'evidence' leading up to gulf war 1.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDkLqyiUCys&mode=related&search=

I'd trust a gorge full of crocodiles before I'll ever trust ANYTHING Bush 41/Cheney/Dubya tell us

[TahitiNut]

29. Yep. "Wrong-footed" his ally Saddam and wedged Middle East even more.

Middle East destabilization and propping up autocrats is a long-time corporatist strategy.

[Odin2005]

43. Poppy CAUSED Gulf War 1 to scare Saudi Arabia to accept US bases.

Poppy basically gave Saddam the green light to invade Kuwait and then created forged spy photos that made the Saudis think they were going to be invaded.

[NOLADEM]

45. Can you help me with a link on the forged photos?

I would love to see them. I love learning new things. I haven't heard of this before.

Thanks in advance.

I wouldn't doubt Bushco on anything diabolical. I know we gave the green light for Saddam to invade in order to justify our involvement. And I know that Kuwait was provoking Saddam with slant drilling into Iraq. Just had never heard of the forged spy photos.

Make no mistake. I don't like Pappy. Compared to the current occupant of the WH though, he is an educated realist who has success in the region fighting wars without getting bogged down. As to all else that makes up who George Sr. is, yes he is a war criminal, Iran/Contra conspirator, war provocateur, and silver spoon asshole who can't tell you within 200% what a head of lettuce costs.

[symbolman]

46. Ever heard of the Highway of DEATH?

When the war was over and the Iraqis were LEAVING, having surrendered, they moved along a single highway on their way to disperse. Bush Senior gave the order to SHUT down that Highway and strafe, bomb and Burn every last man on the road.

It was so bad, and so very a War Crime that even Powell BEGGED him to stop it, but Bush wouldn't.

If you poke around on the web you can see some of the damage done, HORRIFIC and there was NO REASON at ALL to do it. Sheer Blood Lust.

Pictures of men burned beyond recognition in jeeps, still screaming in death are available, someone even created a pic book about it all.

This man is a MONSTER and there are no two ways about it, a thief, crook, war criminal, traitor, liar, pardoned KNOWN Drug runners, and all his pals, the same guys we're NOW seeing resurface, those INDICTED and then FREED by this creature.

Do some homework and don't be fooled. THe cockroaches have been replaced by RATS as one person here put it so well.

He ALSO ARMED Saddam Hussein with phoney agriculural loans.. they DID have WMD, because BUSH SENIOR and his pals ARMED HIM WITH THEM.. that's why the 12,000 page document was taken from the United Nation, that listed ALL the weapons Saddam had, by the US and they returned only about 4000 pages - they'd stripped out all references to Bush the First so we wouldn't KNOW.

[MuseRider]

4. Yes it bothers me a lot.

We got rid of Poppy because he was awful and now we not only have him and his group back but we also have to deal with his petulant son.

[tblue]

5. That's the best they've got. Who'd you think he'd turn to, Clinton? Nevah in a million years.

[shadowknows69]

8. These are men who work in shadows

only to further their own nefarious ends. I am not at all comforted. If we save our soldiers lives, I'm willing to dance witht the devil for a time but we need to keep a close eye on them.

[stellanoir]

10. five awful little words

"Gulf War Syndrome" & "Depleted Uranium"

[Phredicles]

11. Bush I didn't fail quite as overwhelmingly as his idiot son.

But yeah, it does bother me a little.

But a failure is still better than a friggin' monster. I mean, when Shrub took office, I thought he'd be another crappy president like his dad. Now I think, if we'd only been so lucky...:scared:

[Time for change]

12. No - What worries me is the George W. Bush is pResident, period

It's hard for me to conceive that anyone's influence on him could make his administration worse than it already is. Anyhow, his father is more moderate than he is, so to the extent that he has any influence on his son's administration it will be a moderating one IMO. (Not that I don't agree that he presided over a failed presidency.)

[Johnyawl]

17. Bush I was a failure domestically, not in foreign policy

I know a lot of DUers will argue with that, but that's the perception of the vast majority of the American people. When confronted with Saddam's aggression (justified or not, provoked or not, the world saw it as blatant aggression) he put together a world wide coalition, put a smart man in charge, won the war handily at little cost to the coalition, and caged Saddam, diplomatically and militarily. In other words, he did everything his idiot son could not.

Would I prefer to have someone else running things? Absolutely!
Do I prefer Bush I running things over Bush II! ABSOLUTELY!!

Bush Sr's principle failure was in being completely clueless about how Reagans economic policies were effecting the middle class.

[pretzel4gore]

18. when i first heard of bush, in the early 70's

he was thought of as a technocrat, a bureaucratic thug who served the corporate interests....he was on the fringes of the rockefeller/nixon republican crowd; not a potential president by any measure (bob dole was called nixon's pitbull, charles colson feared bob dole! shows you how the media has redrawn all these guys, the big lie in action)

[Johnyawl]

19. My early impression of Bush was a bit different

I didn't know anyone at the time describing him as a "thug". (And ALL republicans serve the corporate interests first) I thought of him as pretty much a party hack, of the high level kind. Congressman/Party Chair/Ambassador/Cabinet appointee kind of person. A 'Country Club' republican of the Nelson Rockefeller/Henry Cabot Lodge type, rather than a self-made 'clothe coat' republican like Nixon.

I agree, though, that NOBODY thought of him as a potential President. It was pretty much understood that Reagan took him as VP to balance the ticket (moderate, New England Country Club republican, teamed with the West Coast, conservative 'populist'). GHWB also brought a good deal of foreign policy credentials that RR lacked.

A party hack that worked hard to position himself, and then became president, thanks to Gary Hart.

[pretzel4gore]

22. maybe later historical knowlege

has coloured my memory of bush and the times...you're right. but back then, noone mentioned that oldbush 'couldn't recall' where he was on nov22/63....noone mentioned, or at least i never heard, that the goof had bailed outta doomed a/c while injured crewmates still inside (as witnessed by a nearby a/f plane)....regan hadn't been shot (by bush family acquaintance john hinckley) and kal 007/iran contra etc were still far in the future.... and of course that ghastly child of his, the mediawhore boytoy from hell, haadn't wondered onto the political stage. your description does better justice to the actuality of bush's reputation then, though....
re: gary hart. it's strange that hart's private sinfulness could be made known to all/sundry, whilst bush's secrets never even mentioned until many years later...his father was a hitler financial adviser who got in trouble with the US government, ferchrissakes! yet gary hart sees his career destroyed while bush family cruised to power....

[Johnyawl]

24. It is amazing isn't it...

...that adultry can derail a political career, but a life time of the dirtiest dealings possible go undocumented, and no matter how much whispering there is, it does nothing to damage that persons career. <sigh> I guess nothing sells like sex!

Hart brought it on himself, unfortuneatly. It's bad enough to be brazenly engaged in an extramarital affair (having her come to his house!?) while you're ramping up a run at the Presidency, but then DARE the press to follow him around. jesus. He crushed me, I had such high hopes for him.

[pretzel4gore]

25. too true....

still, the media has always played the fool, ratting on one while ignoring the vastly more terrible one - and it's not as if the dynamic isn't known far/wide; it's mentioned in the bible! even 'humpty dumpty' is a child's view of the proclivity of the supposed wise guys who wield power to lie themselves into corners, to screw up everything

[leftofthedial]

20. yup. it's absurd

they're all the same.

criminally greedy conmen; utterly indifferent to the duties of the office, they just use power to line their pockets.

it's a crime family.

[BlooInBloo]

21. Way to go American voter.

[leftofthedial]

23. Nixon (twice), Reagan (twice), various bushes (three times*)

I'd say the American voter (if, indeed, election results actually are based on votes) is pretty damned stupid.

But whether it's junior's crew or poppy's crew doesn't matter--they're all members of the same criminal enterprise.

[Jacobin]

27. I don't understand

How we fail to differentiate between neocons and paleocons.

The difference is what caused IraqNam.

Perle, Wolfowitz, Rumsfeld, Cheney, the idiots who have brouht us Viet Nam, redux.

Poppy's crowd does not truck with the neocons. I think we need to appreciate the difference, at least in that regard

[leftofthedial]

30. Rummie is one of poppy's guys

so is cheney

they are all rotten apples from the same tree

[bdamomma]

32. all of them obsessed with power, remember poppy bush ran for

a second term and was blown out of water with Clinton, these guys have a vendetta.

[Jacobin]

38. That is utterly incorrect

Rummie and Poppy hated one another. They were lifelong enemies and had utterly different foreign policy goals.

Please see here:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2092-2449573,00.html

Its a good article on the blood feud between them.

cheers

[leftofthedial]

44. they were rival lieutenants in the same crime family

the one that the bushes took nominal control of, first when poppy helped to get rid of Nixon (the last actual paleoconservative who mattered) and then when he filled the power vacuum after raygun was shot by the bush's friend and began sliding rapidly into senile dementia. this crime family serve as the enforcers for the "owners" of America, whoever the hell they all are.

paleoconservative? neoconservative? neoliberal? poppy and rummie don't give a shit as long as all the rackets get their payments in on time. they put rummie in charge of the big Iraq shakedown and he did fine for them for a long time. but when the doltish public finally started to see that something wasn't quite right about Iraq, a changed needed to be made. they decided on a superficial change and big PR campaign to sell it as a substantive shakeup.

rivals? yeah, okay. hate each other? could be. does it matter? not much. they serve the same masters and pursue the same criminal aims.

[bdamomma]

35. your last comment says it all.

we are not out of the woods yet. we have alot of work to do.

[Jacobin]

26. Nope. Not in the least

NEO CONS are the problem.

Poppy is a Paleocon. They tend to be realistic in foreign policy matters.

Neocons as we have found out, are delusional nutbags

[roamer65]

28. Daddy Bush is a neoliberal...

just like Bill Clinton. That's why there was almost no difference between the two in foreign policy and why the two get along so well nowadays. :puke:

[Jacobin]

36. I'd be fine with Clinton

at the helm. This wouldn't have happened with Clinton at the helm.
It only happened because of the neocons.

Poppy is NOT a neocon and what ever name you want to give his foreign policy is okay by me

[roamer65]

39. I hear ya...and...

Poppy called Cheney, Wolfie and the bunch "the crazies in the basement". Gates is a known "Bush Crime Family" confidant and was rumored to have had dealings with the Iranians (i.e Iran/Contra). Could this the beginning of "back door negotiations" with the Iranians? I smell some kind of Kissinger thing going on...

[bdamomma]

31. again Bush needs his daddy and his daddy' s friends to bail

him out of his messes, the Iran Contra Group this time.

[MoonRiver]

34. Smells of desperation. n/t

[bdamomma]

37. you know what's really sad george has no friends and

he has to count on his daddy's friends now that is sad.

[MoonRiver]

40. Why is that sad?

It's the result of his own sociopathic behavior. He brought this all on himself.

[bdamomma]

41. yes, he has brought this on by himself, but his mother and father

have always bailed him out of his troubles, and shielded him. Sad because as powerful as he thinks he is, he isn't.

[porphyrian]

42. Not any more than when he was taking his guidance from voices in his head. -n/t