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Rumsfeld will be charged with war crimes in a lawsuit to be filed next week in Germany

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sabra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-09-06 08:47 AM
Original message
Rumsfeld will be charged with war crimes in a lawsuit to be filed next week in Germany

http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/2006/11/hes_out_but...

He's Out, But Some Still Want Rumsfeld to Face War Crimes Charges

Though he is now the former Secretary of Defense, Donald Rumsfeld will be charged with war crimes in a lawsuit to be filed next week in Germany.

The Center for Constitutional Rights will file the suit on behalf of a group of Iraqi detainees as well as the so-called 20th hijacker, who is currently being held at Guantanamo Bay.

"The former secretary actually authorized a series of interrogation techniques," said Michael Ratner, President of CCR. "They included the use of dogs, stripping, hooding, stressed positions, chaining to the floor, sexual humiliation and those types of activities."

...

The suit is being brought in Germany because a "universal jurisdiction" law there allows German courts to claim jurisdiction over war crimes even if they were committed outside that country's borders.

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Waya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-09-06 08:49 AM
Response to Original message
1. Great...but......
....don't think the US will extradite Rummy if it comes down to it. All that means is that Rummy can't go to Germany.......
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xiamiam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-09-06 08:53 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. its a beginning....nt
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chaska Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-09-06 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #4
24. Roberto Gonzales, et al, will also be charged. LINK BELOW
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HereSince1628 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-09-06 08:54 AM
Response to Reply #1
5. Or any country with an agreement for extradition with Germany.
That leaves where...Paraguay?
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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-09-06 09:00 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. Honest to God--Paraguay?
Where the Bushies bought their "retirement estates?"
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Egalitariat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-09-06 09:42 AM
Response to Reply #1
12. No extraditions for civil suits. And I don't see how Germany
would have jurisdiction anyways.
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conscious evolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-09-06 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #12
21. I don't think that war crimes are
considered as civilsuits in Germany.They have a clear understanding of what war crimes are and ,due to post war pressures from the Allies,their Constitution probable has clear guide lines for dealing with such accusations.
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Egalitariat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-09-06 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. If "The Center for Constitutional Rights" is the one doing the filing...
as the OP stated, then it is a civil suit. If the German government was doing the filing, I'd think otherwise.

But Germany wouldn't have jurisdiction, so the filing of a criminal action would likely be done at the Hague.
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Senator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-09-06 09:47 AM
Response to Reply #1
14. No buts ... We ARE "The US" ... (yes, really)
NOTE: It is not my intent to single you out personally, rather I think your post illustrates a pervasive attitude (perhaps near-total) that underlies much of what is wrong with our once-great nation in general and certainly with "the left" specifically. And I realize you're only speaking in the near term, but...

First, it is far more than a "denial of a German visa." If he is charged he can't go any nation party to the treaties. They are treaty-bound to arrest him and bind him over to prosecution at the Hague.

Beyond that, we have the affirmative responsiblilty under the treaties to deal with him here. Even then we may be treaty-bound to bind him over for international prosecution if he remains charged with offenses we failed to punish him for.

But the real objectionable part of your post is the personifying of "the US" as something with its own will and agenda. And the defeatism illuminated by that personification.

WE are the US. The American People.

The same ones who just took the sharp knives of the House and Senate away from the irresponsible neofascists. (Note from this that what I'm saying is neither theoretical nor idealistic.)

And by the same proces, WE decide who has committed war crimes, who has terrorized the nation into war, who has defrauded us - the only sovereign entity here, who has stolen elections, who has made or accepted illegitimate appointments and/or laws, etc...

We decide. We impeach. We remove. We prosecute. We punish.

All of "them" inside the beltway and OUR statehouses are OUR servants or agents if you prefer.

All we need do is demand specific action.

There is nothing "undoable" or that "ain't gonna happen."

Statements like that are just Self-Defeating Prophesies.

---
www.january6th.org



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Kolesar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-09-06 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #14
17. I think #1 was just being flip and sarcastic
Having a little fun without looking into it.
I like your prose about the "sharp knives".
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-09-06 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #14
26. As I've said so often to friends
on this side of the big pond, "Amis are just a little s-l-o-w on the uptake." Thanks for your post and your patience.
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jayfish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-09-06 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #1
20. Extradite!?
That's for unpatriotic terra sympathizers. Germany should sneak in some special operators and extraordinarily render his ass to the nearest third-world torture loving country.

Jay
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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-09-06 08:52 AM
Response to Original message
2. Excellent and deserving news!!!!
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wordpix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-09-06 08:53 AM
Response to Original message
3. we should indict him here, first.
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Senator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-09-06 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #3
16. We are treaty-bound to do so
That's actually how war crime prosection works. We have the duty to accuse, try, and punish our own war criminals.

Otherwise we are in violation of the treaties.

That's why the soldiers we are currently prosecuting for crime are not in jeopardy from international authority. Unless we fail to meet our obligations under the treaty.

This is also why any lawmaker who signed on to the "War Criminals Protection Act" that just passed may well be culpable for anything that happened after their willful act of "redefining" Geneva.

--
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-09-06 08:58 AM
Response to Original message
6. Yipee
Waterboarding anyone?
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-09-06 09:07 AM
Response to Reply #6
10. I'll volunteer to do that!
GLADLY. We'll see how much HE likes it.
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jmowreader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-09-06 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #10
25. You better not. You'd enjoy doing it too much.
Also, I read the instructions.

Duct-taping Rummy's arms and legs, sticking him head-first in a 55-gallon drum full of water, and leaving him there until he bloats up and floats to the surface like you were planning to do, DON'T COUNT.

I'm sorry. We can't allow this. Let's just stick him in jail and leave him there.
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raccoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-09-06 09:00 AM
Response to Original message
7. K & R --this is great news.
Edited on Thu Nov-09-06 09:02 AM by raccoon
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katinmn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-09-06 09:07 AM
Response to Original message
9. Richly deserved. Watch out Cheney!
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progressoid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-09-06 09:26 AM
Response to Original message
11. Rummy can hang around with Kissinger and swap indictment stories
There are a few dozen countries that Henry can't set foot in or he'll be arrested.
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Bush_MUST_Go Donating Member (378 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-09-06 09:44 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. I hear they're waiting to greet him with flowers & chocolate in Baghdad.
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City Lights Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-09-06 09:51 AM
Response to Original message
15. Bring it on! eom
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liberal N proud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-09-06 11:25 AM
Response to Original message
18. Let's all pitch in and buy him a one way ticket to Nuremberg
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Selatius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-09-06 11:28 AM
Response to Original message
19. Doesn't the executive branch decide if somebody will be extradited to Germany?
Or any country for that matter?
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Xenotime Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-09-06 02:53 PM
Response to Original message
23. He will look good in international orange.
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file83 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-09-06 08:35 PM
Response to Original message
27. Just because he's "retired" doesn't mean he is no longer guilty. TRY HIM!!!!
Edited on Thu Nov-09-06 08:36 PM by file83
I would love nothing more than to watch Rummy get read the sentence: "Guilty. You will be executed by..." fill in the blank. And then watch him realize what a horrible, terrible, evil man he is. A man as arrogant as Rummy (i.e. Saddam) will only be forced to face the reality of his actions by punishment of death.

The higher they are, the harder they should fall.
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pberq Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-10-06 03:20 PM
Response to Original message
28. Democracy Now - report on this yesterday with Michael Ratner interview
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/11/09/144...

Thursday, November 9th, 2006
War Crimes Suit Prepared against Rumsfeld

. . .
Germany's laws on torture and war crimes permits the prosecution of suspected war criminals wherever they may be found. Now, the president of the Center for Constitutional Rights, Michael Ratner, is returning to Germany to file a new complaint. Michael Ratner joins us in our firehouse studio.

AMY GOODMAN: Michael Ratner joins us in our studio here in New York. Former CIA analyst Mel Goodman and journalist Bob Parry are still in Washington. Michael, why are you headed to Germany in the next few days?

MICHAEL RATNER: Thank you for having me on this issue, Amy. One of the shocking things really so far about the coverage of Rumsfelds resignation, there's not a word in any of it about torture. And here, Rumsfeld is one of the architects of the torture program of the United States. I mean, we have those sheets of paper that went to Guantanamo that talk about using dogs and stripping people and hooding people. We have one of our clients, al-Qahtani, who was in Guantanamo. Rumsfeld essentially supervised that entire interrogation, one of the worst interrogations that happened at Guantanamo. He actually authorized a rendition, a fake rendition of al-Qahtani, where flew him -- put a -- blindfolded him, sedated him, put him on an airplane and flew him back to Guantanamo, so he thought he would be in some torture country. So here you have Rumsfeld, one of the architects, not a word about it.

AMY GOODMAN: How do you know that he personally supervised it?

MICHAEL RATNER: Theres actually documents out there, that theres part of the log that comes out. The log was published of his interrogation. And then theres a report called the Schmidt Report, which was an internal investigation, in which there are statements in there about Rumsfeld being directly involved in the interrogation of al-Qahtani. So this guy has committed -- without any question, this guy has committed war crimes, violations of the Geneva Conventions.

Now, what do we do now? Well, we went to Germany before. Germany dismissed the earlier case on Rumsfeld, partly for political reasons, obviously. Rumsfeld said, Im not going back to Germany as long as this case is pending in Germany. He had to go to the Munich Security Conference. They dismissed the case two days before. What they said when they dismissed it, what they said was, we think the United States is still looking into going up the chain of command, essentially, and looking into what the conduct of our officials are.

In fact, now, two years later, look where we are. One, he has resigned, so any kind of immunity he might have as a vice president from prosecution is out the window. Secondly, of course, as, you know, a little gift package to these guys, you know, our congress with the President has now given immunity to US officials for war crimes. They basically said you cant be prosecuted for war crimes. Thats in the Military Commission Act. Now, that immunity, like the immunities in Argentina and Chile during the Dirty Wars, does not apply overseas.

So, now you have Germany sitting there with -- theres no longer an argument the US can possibly prosecute him, because within the US, hes out. So you have Germany sitting there with a former Secretary of Defense and basically in an immunity situation in the United States. So the chances in Germany have been raised tremendously, I think, and the stakes for Rumsfeld, not only in Germany, but anywhere that guy travels, he is going to be like the Henry Kissinger of the next period.

JUAN GONZALEZ: But then, what would you have to do? You would have to re-file the case before -- is it before an international court in Germany or in German courts?

MICHAEL RATNER: Were actually going on Tuesday. Were re-filing it in German courts under their law, which is universal jurisdiction, which basically says a torturer is essentially an enemy of all humankind and can be brought to justice wherever theyre found. So we are going to Germany to try and get them to begin an investigation of Rumsfeld for really a left-out part of this picture, which is the United States has essentially been on the page of torture now for five years.
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