Operation Pulpit Watch -- A call to action for DU'ers.

[Pab Sungenis]

I'm now asking DU'ers to do something that might seem odd to a few of them.

I want you to go to Church this Sunday.

With this, the final sermonizing day before the midterm elections, upon us, this is our best chance to protect the First Amendment's guarantee of Separation of Church and State. We need to ensure that the preachers who use their pulpits as political rostra are held to account.

Please pick a Church near you to go to Sunday. If you regularly to go a Church, please pick another one. Pick the most right-wing, frothing at the mouth, evangelical church you can locate, and attend at least one service tomorrow, preferably more than one.

Here's the trick. I want you to bring a recorder in with you. Either a microcassette or digital voice recorder would be best, since they're small enough to be convenient and inconspicuous. Be sure to tape the preacher's ENTIRE sermon, along with any other relevant portions. Get as much as you can.

Now, here's what to look for:

Blatant, unmistakable, polticking. I'm not talking about encouraging parishoners to "vote their conscience" or "vote pro-life" or similar statements. Those are fair game under free speech and freedom to worship. HOWEVER, if any part of the service crosses the line, and the flock is blatantly told to vote for a specific candidate, or "vote Republican," then they need to be called on it.

The handing out of "voter's guides" or other literature. Again, this would be a perfect example of a church stepping over the line, and telling its members to vote for specific candidates. If such literature is handed out, carefully save it.

Candidates speaking from the pulpit. This is the worst example I can imagine, and it happens way too often.

If any of these happen at the Church you visit (and this is the weekend they're most likely to, if they happen) then preserve all evidence. Make copies. Burn CD's. Make sure you have plenty of proof. Then call the IRS. File complaints immediately. Give them copies (NOT THE ORIGINALS) of your evidence.

This election is critical, and as a result we need to be especially vigilant in our defense of the Wall of Separation. We need to be the eyes and ears of democracy this weekend. Please be sure to play your part in defending our freedoms!

[Pab Sungenis]

1. Can I get a :kick:?

:kick:

[American Jesus]

2. Sunday before election 2004

Just about every right wing church out there had one message and one message only:

"Vote Democrat and you're going to Hell"

How do I know this to be true?

I'm Jesus, of course B-)

[Pab Sungenis]

3. They'll probably do it again.

This time we have to catch them in the act.

[Generic Other]

4. I don't have the stomach for it

I'd probably start yelling.

[Bigmack]

5. You're asking a lot...

of us, pabsungenis. It's like asking us to jump on a grenade to save our buddies. My gunny taught me to throw somebody else onto the grenade, so I've sent your post on to all my friends.

The small town where I winter is pretty blue, and certainly the three major religious denominations are. If I can work up the balls, I'll try to attend the local "Christian Center", which is the local fundie church.

[mediacenter]

6. Why

Would I want to do such a thing? Secretly record inside of a church? This sounds like something the Nazis would do. If we can't win in the arena of ideas then why are we wasting our time? I think this is a bad idea.

[Pab Sungenis]

8. We can win in the arena of ideas.

Unfortunately, they can win in two more important areas: money and organization. I have no problem with them using their power, but not if they're going to be tax exempt.

I believe in the words of George Carlin: "if these Churches want to take part in politics, let 'em pay their admission fee."

[Gelliebeans]

11. Nazis? Simply for wanting

a separation of church and state, no sorry not gonna buy that.

[Kerrytravelers]

13. Nazis. Hollywood Elite. Defining torture. <<see link below>>

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2574321&mesg_id=2577266

[Gelliebeans]

17. Verrrrry Interesting Reading.....

Kerrytravelers, oh the concern....:rofl:

[spoony]

20. Actually, the OP is only asking

people to target churches likely to say "vote Republican." I doubt very much that people would like it if it was reversed and a bunch of the churches in my area got in trouble for pushing Dem candidates. It isn't about separation of church and state, it's about the separation of THEIR church and state. And yes, it is pretty...brown shirty, let's say.

[Pab Sungenis]

22. The IRS is already going after Democrat-leaning churches.

We need to level the playing field.

[spoony]

25. Not the ones here

and I'd like to keep it that way. There's only one Dem-leaning church I'm aware of being targeted in the country, why should we start some religious war with people from the "other sides" sneaking around with bugs on to catch the "others" and get them in trouble? We get them, they get us back, nice cycle there. Shit, it's not only juvenile, it's creepy.

[Pab Sungenis]

26. Like I said, they're already doing it.

What the ---- is it with Democrats that we're afraid to get down and dirty with the Republicans? They use all these underhanded tricks against us and we end up taking the high road. Which of course, means we keep ending up dead in the gutters.

To paraphrase Sean Connery's character from The Untouchables, the Democrats keep bringing a knife to a gun fight. Sure, we might (MIGHT) take back Congress on Tuesday, but if we had been willing to fight the same way the Republicans do, we might have taken it back years ago, and we might have won the last two Presidential Elections.

Besides, if you insist on occupying the high road, then what is so wrong with making sure that your opponents are playing by the rules?

[Midlodemocrat]

24. Nazis? To try and uphold the constitution and keep Church and State separate?

Methinks you are in the wrong place, dude.

[tinfoil tiaras]

7. Chip Pickering spoke at a church that was in the "Borat" movie

can the IRS find this church and revoke their tax-exempt status?

im totally serious. no :sarcasm: icon here. :)

[Mr_Spock]

9. This is a really good idea

The violation of the separation of church and state is rampant among these RWers and they need to be held accountable. I'd like to help but I am not a church goer and I feel sick when I have to sit through a service.

[mediacenter]

28. The seperation

of Church and State is about a state sponsered religion. This is more about IRS violations...

[ogsball]

10. You can see who uses this sermonspice.com

go vote promo. I love the words they use to tell people to go vote. . .

Click on the Vote November 7 video on the bottom for the subtle message.


http://www.sermonspice.com/listings/2/sermon-illustrations/


One note my congregation is quite diverse politically and I encourage everyone to vote.

[ContraBass Black]

12. So, when my pastor reminds us of the immorality of war by choice

And our moral duties as voting citizens, should I report him too?

Should I dispatch infiltrators to the local mosques and synagogues as well?

[Kerrytravelers]

15. If he tells you who to vote for and violates IRS laws, yes.

If he talks about social issues and reminds people to vote and to vote their conscious, no.

Big difference.



Edited to add this link to another DU discussion on the topic.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2574321

[Pab Sungenis]

19. No.

And if a preacher warns about resisting Islamic aggression, that doesn't warrant reporting either.

We're talking about explicit instructions about which candidates or parties to vote for. That is blatant electioneering, and is illegal for a non-profit organization.

General suggestions about voting your conscience, or supporting an ideology without specifically telling you who to vote for, is fine.

[spoony]

21. And the award for missing the point...

(which, if you care, is that "Republican churches" aren't the only ones involved in not-terribly-subtle political suggestions, and that opening this can of worms is going to fuck over a lot of good, progressive people too)

[Tellurian]

14. Wow, DU'ers really going underground..

I wish I had seen this thread earlier..
I don't have a recorder. I have my cell phone
that does video tape, though..

[tblue37]

16. Phill Kline,

Kansas Attorney General, regularly "preaches" in churches. There has been a sort of mini-scandal here about a memo he sent telling his handlers to arrange for fundraising through his church connections. Former Kansas Attorney general Bob Stephan, an honorable conservative Republican, well respected in Republican politics here in Kansas, quit his role as a special assistant to Kline's campaign and has called for an investigation of his fundraising in churches:

http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2006/oct/18/stephan_questions_kline_fundraising/?elections_2006

Topeka — Nearly three weeks ago, former Atty. Gen. Bob Stephan resigned as a special assistant to Atty. Gen. Phill Kline. At the time, Stephan wouldn’t say what caused him to leave, citing only “personal matters.”

Now he’s talking.

Stephan said Tuesday he resigned because he was upset by Kline’s strategy of using churches to raise campaign funds. And he’s particularly upset about an instance where a church made donations to a business owned by Kline’s wife, Deborah.

<snip>

In a memo Kline wrote to his campaign staff that was leaked then to the Journal-World, he told staff that after he spoke at a church, they needed to have church leaders line up contributors and organize volunteers.

Here's more, from another article:

http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2006/nov/02/stephan_seeks_kline_fundraising_probe/

Former Atty. Gen. Bob Stephan on Wednesday called for an investigation into the fundraising of current Atty. Gen. Phill Kline. Stephan requested that the Kansas Governmental Ethics Commission look into Kline’s fundraising at churches and $41,552 in unitemized contributions he reported on his campaign finance statement filed this week.

“It is very difficult to pin anything down, and that’s why I have asked for this investigation,” Stephan said in an interview with the Journal-World.

Kline’s campaign spokeswoman, Sherriene Jones, denied any impropriety. “Bob Stephan doesn’t have all the facts,” Jones said.

Stephan served as attorney general from 1979 to 1995. He later became a special assistant to Kline until he resigned several weeks ago, later saying it was because of Kline’s fundraising tactics. Both men are Republicans. . . .

[ecstatic]

18. Is anyone going to New Life church tomorrow?

I'd love to hear what will be said tomorrow.

As far as suffering through a right wing, evangelical type service---no thanks. I love my country but that's asking for too much (don't evangelical services last all day?)

[malaise]

37. I hope they have video

If not make sure you see CNN's video.

Sp.

[Midlodemocrat]

23. Well, I wish I could help with this, but my priest speaks

all the time about and against the war, so I have a pretty good idea who he will vote for Tuesday.

In fact, there was a seminar of sorts recently to discuss 'righteous voting' and even though some folks wanted to co-opt it and turn it into an anti-gay, pro-life deal, he kept re-focusing everyone on the horror that is Iraq.

I really like this guy. He speaks from his heart. His sermon the Sunday after Katrina moved me to tears. He spoke about poverty being the real issue and it was really inspiring.

But, I know what you are saying. I just wanted to tell you that there are some religious folks who are on our side.


:hi:

[Jo March]

46. That is not what the OP was referring to

It's the "Vote for XX because he is <insert reason here>" or "Vote Republican or you will go to hell" or instances where the pastor/preacher/minister/priest/rabbi tells the flock to vote for a specific person or party.

Generalities are not in violation of the IRS code.

[Midlodemocrat]

54. Actually, the OP wasn't specifying when he asked people to

camcorder their churches.

And, I think the last sentence I wrote is enough of a disclaimer, thank you very much.

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Kerrytravelers]

29. Always comes back to Clinton, doesn't it?

:eyes:

Making friends all over the board, aren't you?

A quick search will show plenty of fine examples of defending torture by who is defining it, suggesting that it's Nazi-like behavior to monitor wight-wing churches for endorsing candidates, saying that churches endorsing candidates doesn't really matter and, of course, the famous "Hollywood Elite."

[mediacenter]

33. Wrong

It isn't about President Clinton, it is about spying and reporting fellow citizens. I have read hundreds of threads on DU accusing the Repugs of the same thing. I just don't get it.

[Kerrytravelers]

43. Are you still here?

Commence meltdown in T-minus 5...4...3...2...1...

[kath]

50. Thanks, Kerrytravelers, for your timely use of the oh-so-useful "search" function.

Looks like this troll finally got tombstoned.

[Richard Steele]

30. Personally, I'm hitting "alert" right now. Happy?

[Kerrytravelers]

32. Glad to know I'm not the only one!

Ran a quick search again. Now, we're suddenly playing "nice." :eyes:

[Sydnie]

35. I smelled it days ago myself

and my nose is usually always correct.

[mediacenter]

34. Why

Because I have pointed out that spying on others is wrong? Many on this forum agree. Have you forgotten all of the legislation that the Repugs have passed? Spying on Americans, Patriot act???I thought we were against that?

[Sydnie]

38. When they play by the rules, we will

but when they single out churches that are "more liberal" while letting the Ralph Reeds and the Ted Haggards get away with it, we have to push back. Either everyone is held to the same standard or you chuck the standard and let anarchy reign.

Pay close attention to Haggard's statement, beginning at 1:40 into this video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqvjpyvt9dA They ARE manipulating their flocks for their own hypocritical gain.

[Richard Steele]

39. Your CONCERNS are duly noted. nm

[Kerrytravelers]

41. Bwwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Kerrytravelers]

40. Why? Because I've read several of your posts.

It's not because you think spying is wrong. :eyes:

But, I guess I'm just one of those typical Hollywood Elitist - I do live in Los Angeles- who have some crazy definition of torture. Yep. Read your other posts.


*yawn* Yep- always right before an election when this starts. *yawn*

[Richard Steele]

42. I think you've read them ALL now.....

[Kerrytravelers]

45. Did I call it or what!?!?

I'm just some elitist with a crazy notion that torture is wrong and that churches shouldn't hang political signs endorsing candidates on their property.

[kath]

51. Good freep detector, kt. Did you also notice that It had the typical Freeper

spelling ability?

"seperation", "sponsered", probably others.

[seabeyond]

31. for what? singing. worshipping? bush isnt allowed to go to church

either?

i dont get your post. a picture of clinton singing is suppose to move all the way to reporting clinton for what? or are you really syaing the church needs to be reported for clinton singing? clarify please

[Hubert Flottz]

36. I would but...

I'm afraid of snakes and speed freaks.

[bigwillq]

44. I don't go to church.

Period.

Sorry I just can't do it.

[Dorian Gray]

47. My church stays out of politics all together.

It doesn't talk about voting, and the elections didn't come up at all during Mass today.

[seriousstan]

48. Should I report stuff like this???

or this?



or this??



At least this??

[Kerrytravelers]

49. So long as republican politicians are allowed in, no.

And no direct endorsing is allowed, such as "vote for me or go to hell" or "the devil is working for so-and-so" or "this church says you are to vote this way on the upcoming election."

Personally, I don't like any politician in a church, but so long as they stay on the legal side of the fine line, then no IRS codes are broken.


(And, just so you know, that picture of Clinton was part of a post that was deleted and the writer banned as a disruptor. Not that you are a disruptor, but so so you know.)

[Critters2]

53. Report that last one nt

[Critters2]

52. I preached in favor of same sex marriage today

Anyone need a pastor?