The post impeachment administration: Powell-Gore?

[HamdenRice]

I believe that if the Democrats take the House after the mid term congressional elections, there will be an impeachment. Moreover, the Democratic majority will give cover to disgruntled Republicans to join the impeachment effort.

However, we have to keep in mind that it is almost a certainty that impeachment will not change Republican party control of the executive branch. This is because the outgoing president will control the appointment of a vice president.

As during the Nixon administration, once Congress decides that impeachment is a real possibility, they will first have to force out a corrupt vice president -- then Agnew, today Cheney. It is inconceivable that Congress would impeach Bush, but allow the author and instigator of most of his crimes, Cheney, to assume the presidency.

This raises an important question for Democrats: Who will be the post impeachment president and vice president?

Almost all the Republicans in the administration and the Senate are simply too tainted either by the crimes of the administration or corruption in Congress. Both parties' leaders will be trying to clean house, signal a move by the Republicans from the extreme fringe right policy positions and send a message to the international community that the US is ready to return to the "reality based" international community -- all in the same appointment.

Frankly, the only viable Republicans are John McCain and Colin Powell, and given the international crisis that Bush has created, Powell is the far more likely candidate.

At this point, however, because of the unprecedented fiscal, military and international challenges the federal government will face, Democrats need to insist on some kind of "government of national unity" -- in other words, the appointment of a Democratic vice president. The only Democrat with the stature to be vice president under those circumstances is Al Gore, both because of his experience as vice president and because he actually won the popular vote in 2000.

You may disagree with this analysis and proposed administration, but I hope you'll agree that it's time for progressive Democrats to look ahead and begin planning for the post-Bush administration.

[flordehinojos]

1. powell is an asshole solidly in the bush pocket and the world knows he is

a liar who likes to advance his own interests ... existing patriotic feelings in powell? NONE! so, why get rid of an asshole to put in place another asshole? sorry for the foul language. i have no other way to express my utter contempt for powell.

[HamdenRice]

2. I don't disagree at all ...

but the point is, that the Republicans will control the successor to Bush-Cheney.

Powell lied about the war, but he has bee furiously apologizing and leaking his embarrassment ever since he left office.

Surely you can see he is positioning himself for the succession?

[flordehinojos]

4. republicans would never vote for GORE and on principle GORE should not

stand with any republican in a ticket nor take second place to it. he would be another asshole if he, for a second time, would willingly accommodate the assholes.

[HamdenRice]

7. After all this national trauma, would you prefer ....

Powell-McCain? Or Powell-Santorum? If we are going to control a post-Bush administration, I think we need someone in at a very high level.

[flordehinojos]

8. i am not dreamin' republicans are not going to let go of power and control

and without the bush machine to act as their backbone...neither sanctoroom nor mackane have the charisma to do what bush has done...unless they are using diebold machines, i have the feeling that even with those two running the country, much of democracy would return to these shores. although, i may be totally wrong.

[Tesla]

3. He isn't named Colin for nothin!!!

He needs to SING like a bird if he wants any reputation!!!

I would love it if these 2 ran, WE WOULD FOR SURE WIN!!!

[seemslikeadream]

5. WHILE I SIT HERE TRYING TO THINK OF THINGS TO SAY

HamdenRice this is what I think of Colin, if you wish not to have these pictures in your thread I will respect your wishes and edit and delete. Let me know.

WHILE I SIT HERE TRYING TO THINK OF THINGS TO SAY

SOMEONE LIES BLEEDING IN A FIELD SOMEWHERE

SO IT WOULD SEEM WE'VE STILL GOT A LONG LONG WAY TO GO

I'VE SEEN ALL I WANNA SEE TODAY

WHILE I SIT HERE TRYING TO MOVE YOU ANYWAY I CAN


SOMEONE'S SON LIES DEAD IN A GUTTER SOMEWHERE

AND IT WOULD SEEM THAT WE'VE GOT A LONG LONG WAY TO GO

BUT I CAN'T TAKE IT ANYMORE

SWITCH IT OFF IT WILL GO AWAY

TURN IT OFF IF YOU WANT TO

SWITCH IT OFF OR LOOK AWAY

WHILE I SIT AND WE TALK AND TALK AND WE TALK SOME MORE

SOMEONE'S LOVED ONE'S HEART STOPS BEATING IN A STREET SOMEWHERE

SO IT WOULD SEEM WE'VE STILL GOT A LONG LONG WAY TO GO, I KNOW

I'VE HEARD ALL I WANNA HEAR TODAY

TURN IT OFF IF YOU WANT TO (TURN IT OFF IF YOU WANT TO)

SWITCH IT OFF IT WILL GO AWAY (SWITCH IT OFF IT WILL GO AWAY)

TURN IT OFF IF YOU WANT TO (TURN IT OFF IF YOU WANT TO)

SWITCH IT OFF OR LOOK AWAY (SWITCH IT OFF OR LOOK AWAY)

SWITCH IT OFF

SWITCH IT OFF

SWITCH IT OFF

SWITCH IT OFF

SWITCH IT OFF

TURN IT OFF


thanks phil collins for the words
my heart to the people of Haiti

[HereSince1628]

6. The succession to the presidency is defined...I don't think your scenario

accounts for the fact that the Constitution was amended to provide a clearly defined succession of the Presidency.

How is your scenario going to get around the 25 amendment?

[HamdenRice]

10. This IS the procedure under the 25th Amendment

Presidential succession tells us what happens when the president dies or is impeached, or more remotely, if the president and vice president die, or what happens under ever more remotely possible scenarios. Presidential succession does not govern who becomes vice president during this kind of impeachment crisis; the 25th Amendment is more likely to govern what happens.

Before the 25th Amendment, if the president died, the vice president succeeded him and the vice presidency remained vacant. The 25th Amendment specifies that if the vice presidency is vacant (for example, because the vice president has become president) a new vice president is appointed.

This was the procedure used to appoint Gerald Ford as vice president to Nixon. What was unique about the Nixon impeachment and uniquely similar to the situation today, is that it is inconceivable that Congress would impeach Bush and allow Cheney to take office, just as it was inconceivable that Congress would impeach Nixon and allow Agnew to take office.

So Agnew was forced to resign first, just as Cheney will be forced to resign first. The president will then appoint a vice president with the consent of Congress. After the removal of the president, the appointed vice president becomes president.

The relevant part of Amendment XXV:

Section 2



Whenever there is a vacancy in the office of the Vice President, the President shall nominate a Vice President who shall take office upon confirmation by a majority vote of both Houses of Congress.

[HereSince1628]

12. Here it is, pls show me where it provides for a Presidential appointment?

Please note Sec. 1 Specifically says in case of _REMOVAL_.


25th Amendment to the Constitution (1967)

Passed by Congress July 6, 1965.
Ratified February 10, 1967.

Replaced part of Article II, section 1 of the Constitution, originally written in 1783.

Section 1.

In case of the removal of the President from office or of his death or resignation, the Vice President shall become President.

Section 2.

Whenever there is a vacancy in the office of the Vice President, the President shall nominate a Vice President who shall take office upon confirmation by a majority vote of both Houses of Congress.

Section 3.

Whenever the President transmits to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives his written declaration that he is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, and until he transmits to them a written declaration to the contrary, such powers and duties shall be discharged by the Vice President as Acting President.

Section 4.

Whenever the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmits to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall immediately assume the powers and duties of the office as Acting President.
Thereafter, when the President transmits to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives his written declaration that no inability exists, he shall resume the powers and duties of his office unless the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive department or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit within four days to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office. Thereupon Congress shall decide the issue, assembling within forty-eight hours for that purpose if not in session. If the Congress, within twenty-one days after receipt of the latter written declaration, or, if Congress is not in session, within twenty-one days after Congress is required to assemble, determines by two-thirds vote of both Houses that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall continue to discharge the same as Acting President; otherwise, the President shall resume the powers and duties of his office.

[HereSince1628]

13. Here is the accepted order of succession

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0101032.html

The Presidential Succession Act of 1947, signed by President Harry Truman, changed the order again to what it is today. The cabinet members are ordered in the line of succession according to the date their offices were established.

Prior to the ratification of the 25th Amendment in 1967, there was no provision for filling a vacancy in the vice presidency. When a president died in office, the vice president succeeded him, and the vice presidency then remained vacant. The first vice president to take office under the new procedure was Gerald Ford, who was nominated by Nixon on Oct. 12, 1973, and confirmed by Congress the following Dec. 6.

The Vice President Richard Cheney
Speaker of the House John Dennis Hastert
President pro tempore of the Senate1 Ted Stevens
Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice
Secretary of the Treasury John Snow
Secretary of Defense Donald H. Rumsfeld
Attorney General Alberto Gonzales
Secretary of the Interior Gale A. Norton
Secretary of Agriculture Mike Johanns
Secretary of Commerce Carlos Gutierrez2
Secretary of Labor Elaine Chao3
Secretary of Health and Human Services Mike Leavitt
Secretary of Housing and Urban Development Alphonso Jackson
Secretary of Transportation Norman Yoshio Mineta
Secretary of Energy Samuel Bodman
Secretary of Education Margaret Spellings
Secretary of Veterans Affairs Jim Nicholson
Secretary of Homeland Security4 Michael Chertoff

NOTE: An official cannot succeed to the Presidency unless that person meets the Constitutional requirements.
1. The president pro tempore presides over the Senate when the vice president is absent. By tradition the position is held by the senior member of the majority party.
2. Carlos Gutierrez was born in Cuba and is ineligible.
3. Elaine Chao was born in Taiwan and is ineligible.
4. In late July 2005, the Senate passed a bill moving the Homeland Security secretary to number 8 on the list. The bill is awaiting House approval.

[HamdenRice]

20. You are confusing presidential succession with the 25th Amendment

Again, look at section 2 of the Amendment. It specifies how a vice president is appointed.

Presidential succession applies only to the presidency. If the vice presidency is vacant (or for that matter, Speaker of the House or any of those other offices) it does not mean that each person moves up the line of succession; they are simply appointed.

If you don't understand still, just remember how Ford became president. Agnew was already shown to be a low life crook, so he was forced to resign. Nixon appointed Ford in accordance with the 25th Amendment. Nixon resigned. Ford became president. Ford appointed Rockefeller as his VP.

The appointment of VP in these circumstances is pretty much political.

[HereSince1628]

22. A VP appointment must be approved by congress see my post below

[iamjoy]

11. Appointments

Say the President steps down. The VP becomes President and APPOINTS a new VP.
The Order of Succession only kicks in if there is no time to appoint a new VP.

I guess the OP thinks it would go like this: Dubya is impeached and removed from office. Cheney becomes President :scared: and appoints a VP, say, Powell :puke: Cheney is then impeached and removed from office. Powell becomes President and appoints a new VP.

Yeah, Powell is great. Wasn't he defending Dubya's spying?

[HamdenRice]

16. Yes, that's more or less it, except ...

As I mentioned, the exact scenario has already happened once -- with Nixon and Agnew.

I seriously doubt that Congress would trust Cheney to be president even for one minute. If there is an impeachment, Cheney will be removed first, just as Agnew was removed.

At this point, just as Nixon appointed Ford, because he was acceptable to Congress, which by then had tremendous leverage over the president, Bush will be forced to appoint a VP acceptable to Congress.

At that point, McCain or Powell are about the only Republicans I can imagine Congress approving.

It's not that I'm saying it's a great outcome -- but it's what I think is going to happen if there is impeachment.

[HereSince1628]

21. The president can only appoint with Congressional ratification

If Bush is impeached, I doubt very much if Cheney is elevated he'll ever get a cooperation in nominating a VP.

I don't think anyone ever anticipated the need to remove a Junta from the Executive Branch. So this would plow some new ground.

But consider that if Bush is impeachable so is the VP (and many of the top officials would be guilty of the same crimes and misdemeanors). It seems under this circumstance the House would try to remove Cheney first, since the VP's position was historically considered OK to go unfilled--there was no provision to fill it for over 150 years.

Under a credible impeachment threat to both Cheney and Bush one must wonder if Bush himself would even have enough Republican support to get approval for a VP thru the Congress.

It seems rather more likely to me that any nomination to the VP would be forced to to wait until the end of the crisis in the executive.

[HamdenRice]

23. That's my point -- this is exactly what happened to Nixon

They would indeed remove Cheney first, just as they removed Agnew first. It would be easy for Bush to get his appointment through Congress because, as with Nixon, it would be Congress telling the president who they believe is acceptable. That's why the appointment of a VP under these circumstances is essentially political; it is Congress taking power from the president and ruling until one of their own is firmly in place.

In impeachment, Congress wants to clean house, but they don't want a succession crisis with no president or vice president.

If impeachment happens, it will have to be by these steps: Cheney will be forced out; Bush will appoint as VP someone nominally chosen by him, but acceptable to Congress, and then approved by Congress; then Bush will be impeached and removed.

[Kahuna]

9. GTFOH!

:puke:

[liberal N proud]

14. Powell would have one hell of a lot of explaining to do to re-gain

even the slightest bit of respect from me.
When he joined the bu$h regime then helped them go to war he lost any respect I did have for him.

[Silverhair]

15. The constitution lists the line of succession. Congress doesn't get to ..

...choose.

However, Bush will not be removed by the impeachment process. That is just a pipe dream.

[HamdenRice]

17. Presidential succession doesn't apply: remember Nixon? see posts above nt

[Silverhair]

19. OK. My bad. I stand corrected about the succession. NT

[KG]

18. impeachment is just not going to happen.

[Lost4words]

24. I can see powell as pres of the karioki manufacturers association.

but thats about it. as far as reliable republicans,I dont believe there are any.

[HamdenRice]

25. So who will be the post-Bush prez if not Powell?

My OP was not an endorsement of what I hope happens, but a prediction. If you want impeachment, you have to think about the end game.

So what are the alternatives? Bush will not appoint a Democrat as president.