GOD DAMN THEM ALL: THEY ARE STEALING IT NOW!

[berni_mccoy]

Democratic votes are flipping to the REPUKEs in AT LEAST FOUR STATES NOW:

Texas, Missouri and Arkansas…

http://www.bradblog.com/?p=3675

And now today in Florida:

http://www.bradblog.com/?p=3692

AND JUST NOW IN NEVADA!!!: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

"November 7th is going to be a good day for the republican party" -- George. W. Bush, Oct. 30th 2006

(edited to add Nevada)

[helderheid]

1. Just as I expected - at least NOW our eyes are wide open

[INdemo]

18. Relax..no they wont steal it

What will happen though.....Karl Rove will be planting all those push polls the Repukes have funded all over the MSM outlets to try and convince their base that showing up at the polls is worthwhile..The Repukes are desperate.

[helderheid]

26. why wouldn't they? n/t

[INdemo]

47. With all the media coverage lately about the voting machines

The public is more aware of the risk and I believe (especially Democratic voters) will double check before they leave the booth..And the DNC will have attorneys at the voting precincts to assist voters and make sure their vote is counted.Gov Dean has hired some and many attorneys have volunteered..This doesn't make it risk free but it is certainly better than it was in 2004..I know,I know there were lawyers present in 2004 but I think we're more organized now.. After all those safe guards
and it is stolen than say good bye to our Democracy and hello to a dictatorship because that is what we will have..

[helderheid]

62. What do you mean voters will double check? Double check what exactly?

The screen may say you voted D. The printout may say you voted D. But the vapor vote could say you voted R and there would be no way of knowing unless meaningful audits were in place (which they are not).

Now, I am hopeful that future elections will be as fair as possible now that the MSM is finally waking up to the horror that is electronic voting on private machines using secret software with political ties. Will it matter this election? I doubt it. That is why I hope the Dems vote in such incredible numbers that it will be obvious even to EVERYONE that the election was stolen by the Republican machines.

[INdemo]

72. meaning voters can look at the sample voting screen before they enter

the booth..If there is questions about casting their vote then they should ask.When they cast their vote make sure the correct vote confirmation is on the screen before vote is cast.

[helderheid]

73. Like I said - it can say that it is correct, print that it's correct, but that doesn't

mean that the vote will be counted correctly - Mark D, Print D, but the vote, with no way to see it, is cast as R. Without the printed receipts being meanifully audited, you'd never know.

[INdemo]

108. Well that's true I guess

so the ideal thing to do is trash the damn things and return to paper ballots..I dont care how many millions the states have invested..And did you know that a majority of these machines across the country are used(reconditioned)

[Zhade]

134. Now THAT'S the right attitude!

NT!

[nashville_brook]

188. apply that logic to the iraq war...

[bobbolink]

119. you're so trusting.

I'm afraid it's really gonna hurt on Nov 8.

[Laha]

173. The more it hurts...

The more obvious it will be to everyone that the election has been stolen.

As far as influencing the results of your elections, I am completely useless - being just an unknown Canuck observing the events from off the continent and across the ocean - but I've never stopped being a voice, trying to get others to understand that much of America is as angry at their government as is the rest of the world. I fear for the future of your country now, as much as I fear for the future of my own because I never delude myself into thinking what happens elsewhere cannot spill over the borders.

Good luck America

I've wanted to say that for a long time, I feel for your country and all people inside in very much the same way I would if I was watching an older sibling slide down the dark, painfull road of addiction or some other self-destructive path. It's difficult to cope with the idea that I can do nothing, but continue to wait and watch and hope.

The waiting is mind numbing to myself, I can't imagine what it must be like for all of you.

I wish I could think of something more usefull or productive to say.

At least, know that the entire world hasn't turned against your country, most simply fear what your government is capable of. If nothing else, I will continue to be at least one small voice trying to show others in the world that you are trying to shake off the horrors wresting for control of our home.

Good luck America.. You're going to need it..

[SmokingJacket]

180. Thank you.

It's hard to know how it looks from the outside. From inside the US, sometimes everything looks just the same as ever -- it's easy, especially if you don't watch TV or read the news, to think everything's fine. That's why there's no riots in the streets, I think.

But those of us who are paying attention are totally freaked out.

[bobbolink]

204. It can't hurt me much more than it already is... I'm homeless,

with not much hope for the future. Not that it matters to much of DU, but a Canadian might understand what I'm saying.

It's the rest of this nation that's going to have to hurt enough to get mobilized, and for those who are *already* "mobilized", it's going to have to hurt enough to be willing to drop a lot of silly diviseness and do some peacemaking with each other.

Thank you for your kind and understanding words. I have come to expect mostly lectures or flames from anything I post here (as have others come to expect the same), which is why I just don't bother with a lot of it. So, it's a pleasant surprise to get a reply that empathizes and expresses caring and understanding, rather than the usual .... well, you know...

I've done all I can, and without caring and supportive community behind me, I can do no more. Maybe someday "progressives" will hurt enough to "get" that.

Until then....

Thanks again, and I certainly wish you Canadians well. I've met a few who come through on vacation, and I know the agonizing going on there, also.

across the border...

[splat@14]

132. I voted in early voting yesterday in Texas....

You go through the ballot and at the end, theres a summary screen thats shows all the names you voted for and the races where you didn't make a selection (I don't waste time voting on uncontested races). That's the confirmation.

Didn't see a problem, would rather a paper ballot but, hell I don't know. There were no options in how I voted, You had to use the digital ballot.

[The Doctor.]

168. How hard is it to program a computer to show one thing on a screen...

While recording something else to memory?

Not even a little bit.

The glitch is that they couldn't keep the real log entries from displaying once in a while.

[Imagevision]

175. Broward Co., FL: Votes for Democrats are registering for Republicans

<snip>

Several South Florida voters say the choices they touched on the electronic screens were not the ones that appeared on the review screen -- the final voting step.
Election officials say they aren't aware of any serious voting issues. But in Broward County, for example, they don't know how widespread the machine problems are because there's no process for poll workers to quickly report minor issues and no central database of machine problems.

Debra A. Reed voted with her boss on Wednesday at African-American Research Library and Cultural Center near Fort Lauderdale. Her vote went smoothly, but boss Gary Rudolf called her over to look at what was happening on his machine. He touched the screen for gubernatorial candidate Jim Davis, a Democrat, but the review screen repeatedly registered the Republican, Charlie Crist.

It's 2004 all over again but on a much larger scale!

[truth2power]

185. Attorneys at the precincts?..

They were there in '04 and you see how well that worked.

[Mugsy]

186. The stage is being set to steal back DeLay's seat in Texas.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

[Bandit]

28. Most of the Republicans have already voted

The RNC mails out Absentee Ballots to virtually every single member of the Republican Party. It is the main secret of their GOTV they brag so much about. This time I believe it is going to bite them in the ass.

[Habibi]

30. Uh, what?

I never heard of this before. Can you give me more info?

[NMDemDist2]

113. just cuz they send out applications for ballots doesn't mean the voter

actually sends it in, or returns the ballots if they do

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cobalt Violet]

16. Bingo!

[HereSince1628]

3. Well, that insures THE numbers, don't cha know?

Rove polled all his guys to be sure the hack was installed in the software. They all said "Yezzer"

[peacetalksforall]

4. The word flip. Interesting. Who has made the bigger deal out

of calling Dem candidates flip-floppers? When did they do it - 2000 and 2004, heavily.

Interesting that the crime of stealing votes involves flipping.

[helderheid]

5. Hadn't thought of that! LOL! Well now we know where Rove gets THE math.

[Jcrowley]

6. Criminals

Karl Rove Announces Plans to Steal Election
Submitted by dswanson on Thu, 2006-10-26 19:54. Elections

By David Swanson

White House political head honcho Karl Rove was interviewed by National Public Radio yesterday. He effectively announced plans to steal the coming elections. The polls point decisively to a Democratic majority in the House, and possibly in the Senate. Yet Rove told NPR he was certain of Republican majorities in both houses, and gave laughable reasons for his claim. Rove had no actual evidence to point to.

Here's the transcript:

MR. SIEGEL OF NPR: We're in the home stretch, though. And many might consider you on the optimistic end of realism about --

MR. ROVE: Not that you would be exhibiting a bias or anything like that. You're just making a comment.

MR. SIEGEL: I'm looking at all the same polls that you're looking at every day.

MR. ROVE: No you're not. No you're not!

MR. SIEGEL: No, I'm not --

MR. ROVE: I'm looking at 68 polls a week. You may be looking at four or five public polls a week that talk about attitudes nationally, but that do not impact the outcome –

<snip>

MR. SIEGEL: Have you seen the DeWine race and the Santorum race and -- I don't want to –

MR. ROVE: Yeah. Look, I'm looking at all these Robert and adding them up. And I add up to a Republican Senate and a Republican House. You may end up with a different math, but you're entitled to your math. I'm entitled to "the" math.

http://www.davidswanson.org/?q=node/641

[SouthernBelle82]

7. And it's all out in the open

Don't forget the media "mistaking" candidate's party affiliation's on their programs. Last night they did it to Charlie Rangel and called him a republican after talking to Michael Steele. They've called Bob Corker a democrat too.

[TechBear_Seattle]

10. Do you really expect the courts to do anything?

Seriously. The GOP have been packing the judiciary for years, and we can't even depend on the Supreme Court to intervene. So why bother with secrecy?

[John Gauger]

94. That's supposedly the reason

That Kerry didn't challenge in 2004. Becuase Rehnquist was an old hand at voter fraud and he would excuse such behavior by his own beloved Republican Party.

[seafan]

8. Also in Florida! (October 28 thread here)

Broward Co., FL: Votes for Democrats are registering for Republicans

[jazzjunkysue]

9. This is going to break through the nation's denial.

And it never hops back to favor democrats.

I hope it's more than obvious. We have to get serious about voting fraud before we occupy any more countries.

[berni_mccoy]

12. Only if it gets reported in the MSM... which at this point it isn't

Our Democratic leaders need to step up and acknowledge this in order to get something done.

Individual voters can't organize an investigation on their own (otherwise, we'd have overturned the 2004 election).

[helderheid]

23. Lou Dobbs is ALL OVER it. I'm sure Keith Olbermann will be too.

[Supersedeas]

86. We shall see if the Corp Media buries another Fraud of an Election

[civildisoBDence]

87. Nothing is real until it appears on television

and then it's hyper-real.

Newsprism

[ChicagoRonin]

11. Take pictures (cell phone cameras)

There's no law against it (I assume), so I think everyone who has to use one of the touch-screen voting machines should have their cell phone cameras out (if they have one) and taking a picture of the screen as they cast their vote. Even better if your phone is one of those capable of taking short movies.

If something fishy happens, save the file, date them, and send them out. Take pictures of the election workers and officials at the polling place while you're at it.

[mom cat]

42. A picture is worth so very much. Good idea.

[AnneD]

82. damn...I wish I had thought about that when I voted

on Sat. Great idea. Even if it isn't 'legal' it proves the point.

[fasttense]

13. There is no rock slimy enough to prevent Rove from slithering under it.

They will lie, cheat and steal to stay in power. Once that stops working they will move on to murder and rape. I hope the Christian right likes how their "morals" and "values" are being twisted.

[Stand and Fight]

14. Possibly Nevada as well... See my post here:

Voter Fraud Alert in Nevada

[BootinUp]

15. Seems a poor job of "stealing" if it tells you it done it. n/t

just sayin.

[berni_mccoy]

19. No need to hide it when no one can do anything about it.

[BootinUp]

29. Well

that is just not true that nothing can be done when a voting machine malfunctions and the voter reports it. If that were true why even bother with this thread. Or with poll monitors, or with voting at all.

just my opinion of course.

[seabeyond]

77. it was happening early voting in texasand new mexico. straight dem

was a bush vote. people tried four fivetimes tocorrect before it would change over. that was IF they previewed vote. and then some people just gave up trying to correct. started early voting in 2004 and NO ONE did anything about it. heard massive reports of it election day. how many, every 3 or 4 or 8 staight dem vote goes to bush? that is significant

[AnneD]

83. I voted a straight dem ticket

and went back to preview. If a dem wasn't running, I voted libertarian. I previewed again and all was ok...but I wish I could get a ticket

[Skittles]

167. WOW ANNE!

I could have written your post WORD FOR WORD!!!

[RaleighNCDUer]

146. Unfortunately, it is true, and is the ultimate republican ideal.

Look at 2000, 2002, 2004. This is not the first stolen election, but could easily be the last.

[itsmesgd]

17. is everybody ready

Is everybody ready to strike or march? It looks like we are getting a full week's notice. Let's get things in place to act on Nov 7 and 8, 9, 10......

peace
sgd

[intheflow]

24. God, I hope so.

But this is a good reminder to me to store up some money for a Greyhound to DC in early November.

[KansDem]

27. Perhaps that's why Bush now has dictatorial powers to call out Nat'l Guard

Now he can quell public disturbances by calling out all 50 National Guards (if he wants to) to act as a domestic army in putting down irate voters. And the states' governors can't object!

[Name removed]

67. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[StraightDope]

79. I don't know if you read my post yesterday...

About my conversation with Iraq vets, but that there is one bunch of National Guardsmen who won't be fighting for * again, EVER. I suspect that they aren't the only ones, either.

[KansDem]

84. Didn't see your post...

I've always wondered if one group of Americans would take up arms against another group of Americans if told to do so by this CnC. I'm happy to hear that that may not be the case...

[StraightDope]

162. Thread from yeterday...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

[druidity33]

88. ala Mexico...

he could call them the "Preventive Police"...

[Joe Chi Minh]

179. Now, now. That's not the spirit, is it....? Not the Deomocratic spirit,

anyway. Why, you could be a Republican, saying something like that.

Do you post to this board to quench any courageous patriotism showed by DUers? Don't you think that the people who choose to anyway. demonstrate would consider that? Or that they would all be young hot-heads?

[bdamomma]

60. welcome to DU, I was wondering that myself, are people

going to be in the streets, that will be our other alternative. Enough is Enough!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Divine Discontent]

109. don't fret

I am with you. I don't care if I lose my disney job. That's all I can get in Otown anyhow. I used to work at 3 diff. places in the 90's that paid over 30K a year, I'm thankful I have work, but I make less than a guy asking for money on the corner, literally!

I've planned finding people who are fed up if we have congress stolen from us - because the Repubs are saying they're so confident, yet a vast majority of americans wants dems in charge and we're polling at a gain of 25+ seats, so to not even get 15, will tell me they're protecting their asses from prison. We should get 35-50 seats, and 7 senate seats, and somehow, I question if that will be even close...

so don't worry, I'm with you.


www.cafepress.com/warisprofitable <<-- antibush prodem stickers/shirts

[Brundle_Fly]

20. this is a really stupid way to think they'd do it.

openly showing the computational error, isn't a way to steal an election properly.

you'd think they'd use a little bit of discretion, and use something at the end of the tabulation software, and not openly show their suckage of votes.

Although, having no one questioning them in the past, maybe they like to have people see their scamming openly and hurtfully.

[berni_mccoy]

25. Man, people here aren't getting it...

What is ANYONE going to do about it if they steal it? Tip over the voting machines? Riot? March on D.C.? If you did any of those things you'll all be labeled violent criminals if not enemy combatants (at which point you'll be whisked away). And that isn't a way to do it at any rate. But the right way to do it is not working. The Republican party is IN POLITICAL SHAMBLES already. They HAVE NOTHING TO LOSE by OPENLY STEALING IT. Nobody has stopped them yet. And if they win, there will be no stopping them.

[BootinUp]

33. hey bernie

do you think all republicans, every single one, even if they were related to you, are willing to steal the election? That they have no desire to see the the process work as intended, you know will of the people and all that guff?

[berni_mccoy]

52. Well, we've had two stolen elections so far, and these people don't believe it

including my republican relatives. They will simply see any cries of foul play as sour grapes.

[BootinUp]

59. Unfortunately

There is undeniable evidence that the country was very evenly split in 2000 (by electoral votes) and neither candidate had much of a mandate, the battle over Florida could have gone either way. Basically we were outmaneuvered in the post election court battle. Right or wrong it went to the supreme court and we lost. Obviously I disagree with that SC decision. THere is strong evidence of a poorly run and partisanly run election system, go figure. Since they are politically appointed positions thats what you should expect. We need to do better in Florida than to win by the nip of our chinny chin chin.

In 2004 Kerry was pretty well creamed thats all there was to that.

[berni_mccoy]

64. Kerry was "creamed"?!? Did you not read ANY of the election fraud news coming

out of Ohio? That election was STOLEN.

Kerry had more than enough votes to take the win.

[BootinUp]

65. Put me down as someone

who prefers real law enforcement investigations and court decisions over the verdicts of internet activists. I know it sucks but this is my opinion.

[berni_mccoy]

92. Who, exactly, is going to investigate when the Sec. of State, Board of Elections

And law enforcement of the state are all controlled by those trying to stay in power?

That is the problem with Ohio. And DESPITE numerous LAW SUITS to DEMAND AN INVESTIGATION based on SOLID EVIDENCE of discrepencies that can not STATISTICALLY BE EXPLAINED AS MACHINE ERROR, no investigations were performed.

[BootinUp]

98. It seems like the Democrats

will have plenty of chances to correct some of the problems in Ohio after this next election. Hopefully they will uncover more evidence so the cases you are talking about can proceed.

Suggestion: be careful believing everything you read too.

[Rob H.]

99. Here's a book that's worth checking out

What Went Wrong in Ohio: The Conyers Report on the 2004 Presidential Election by John Conyers.

[BootinUp]

102. Heres a report online as well.

http://www.truthout.org/docs_05/010605Y.shtml

[Rob H.]

131. Nice! That might actually be the full text of the book!

I'm on dialup, but I'm going to download it to make sure.

I found another one at Amazon, too--What Happened in Ohio? by Bob Fitrakis, Steve Rosenfeld, and Harvey Wasserman that just came out 10 days ago. It would've been nice if they could've gotten it out sooner relative to the '06 midterm elections but I still might pick up a copy.

Edit: Oops, what I meant was, the PDF linked at the bottom of the page might contain the full text of the book.

[Marnieworld]

190. Then I'm sure the GAO report convinced you

Or the Conyers report?

[BootinUp]

203. Did they say

it was stolen? IOW, did either of those reports say Kerry should be President? I know the answer but maybe you need to review them.

[rg302200]

163. I live in Ohio and worked the polls in 2004

It's my opinion that Bush didn't steal the election, I know this is not what you want to hear but I have come to believe that. However, his little lap dog Ken Blackwell sure did enough to bend the rules in his favor, especially by not putting enough voting machines in heavy Democratic districts. When you add that with the Republicans GOTV effort you get their formula for success because they were able to swing the election 3 percentage points in a little under 72 hours. What we need to do is to match their GOTV efforts and motivate the Democratic base to get out and vote in droves!

Finally I have talked to fellow poll workers and work closely with my local BOE and they assure me that it would be very difficult for someone, anyone for that matter to steal an election.

That said I did vote a straight Dem absentee, even though we now have a paper trail with our new machines.

Trust me November 7th will be a very blue day indeed.

[RaleighNCDUer]

153. Bullcrap.

2000 was stolen, 2002 was stolen in select races, and 2004 was stolen. None of them were business as usual (though a case may be made that for republicans, fraud and theft are business as usual).

What will it take to convince you, after all the evidence that has come out over the past six years?

[BootinUp]

154. Define evidence.

Is anything that can be given a suspicious spin evidence? Are you also a LIHOPER or MIHOPER? Do you believe in UFO's?

I'm not trying to insult you, but I have looked at this "evidence" and have found it to be quite lacking.

[leftchick]

81. three

2000, 2002 GA for sure, 2004

[berni_mccoy]

91. You are right... I should have said "at least"

[nolabels]

164. I would say yes to that question

The break-off point would be between 10-25% but even a good fraction of that would fall back into the fold. If you can get 40 to 65% saying they are religious but most of them knowing it's all mostly just fairy tales then yea it might work if couched right. The operatives and their base will always lie and cheat because that is how they got there and that is all they have left. Expect it just like you expect a leopard to have spots

[Brundle_Fly]

34. sorry I "don't get it" Bernie.

I am in Canada, we use paper and pencils to vote. may sound quaint but it works.

[berni_mccoy]

53. I wish we did too. It's not rocket science and computers should not be required

to count.

[BootinUp]

63. I don't feel super strongly either way

In other words I am willing to accept other peoples judgement on whether electronic machines are a good idea or not. But I think a good case could be made either way based on the accuracy, security, and speed. Personally my opinion is that the machines development should be publically funded not private enterprises.

[w4rma]

120. There may be too many people who feel like you do for Democrats

to be able to do anything about this.

All the facts and figures are right there, but many folks just can't believe that there are people in the world who believe strongly in dictatorships over democracies. And who put their own selfish interests over their own country's well being.

[BootinUp]

124. And then

there are people who think tens of thousands of people in government and private businesses are orchestrating everything in secret for their fuhrer. They have no desires other than to please Bush and Dick. None of them have morals. Only we Democrats on the internet have morals and know the truth.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
..
.
.
.
.
.
.
.

[w4rma]

126. Don't hide behind sarcasm.

I do not believe that is how things work. Propaganda is more insidious.

Tens of thousands of people cannot keep secrets. There *will* be leaks. There, of course, *have* been leaks. Those leaks don't get much coverage and many people see this and don't bother leaking, instead protecting their own livelyhood instead of protecting everyones' livelyhoods, because either don't believe they can make enough of a difference or because they don't want to.

[BootinUp]

127. Bottom line

there is not one shred of evidence that voting machines were rigged on purpose to skew elections. Not one shred. People will point to problems and last minute changes to software etc. Guess what, the fuckin machines (especially earlier units) were/are buggy because the companies made them on the cheap! Because the testing processes are bullshit!

You can believe whatever you want, but don't expect me to swallow a conspiracy without some real evidence.

[Zhade]

138. Untrue. You are wrong.

Check out Bradblog, and educate yourself.

[RaleighNCDUer]

155. It doesn't take tens of thousands. A few dozens are easily sufficient

if placed correctly - such as SoS, board of elections, voting machine technicians, etc. And there have been leaks - such as the anonymous Diebold employee who leaked the code, which proved the machines are susceptible to tampering.

[BootinUp]

157. What machine (of any kind) is not susceptible to tampering?

What you need to show is that it WAS tampered with. That there was a conspiracy, with evidence connecting the conspirators.

[RaleighNCDUer]

161. No, we only have to show that it CAN be tampered with.

Our electoral process should not be held hostage to the rigors of absolute proof, particularly when those who benefit by the rigging are writing the laws that protect the machines from investigation. Do you really believe that Chuck Hagel won by a suprise upset, when the voting was done on machines made by the company he owned?

If there is a reasonable doubt as to the integrity of the machines - which there is, as substantiated by the leaked Diebold code, by the president of Diebold saying he would do "everything in (his) power" to see that Bush was elected - then we MUST abandon them to a cleaner, simpler verifiable paper ballot, such as is used around the world. We cannot trust republican officials counting votes on republican built voting machines and tabulators.

[BootinUp]

172. Different question altogether

I thought we were talking about stolen elections.

[Zhade]

137. Do you think voting machines with proprietary code we aren't allowed to see...

...are a good idea? Remember, we paid for that code to count our votes, yet it remains secret.

Australia instituted the use of voting machines, with a responsible twist: the code is open-source and viewable by the public.

Which do you think can be counted on to not be tampered with without our knowledge?

[BootinUp]

148. I already siad

I favored publically funded machines.

Open source? no.

Networked? no.

[Zhade]

158. You don't support open-source? Really?

Thank goodness the election activist experts think otherwise! With open-source code, EVERYONE can know how votes are counted, what the code does - it's basically the same as a clear ballot lockbox.

You may be thinking that open-source code would enable outside hacks; this is curbed by not networking the machines as you smartly suggest (we agree there).

I'm actually surprised you don't support the American taxpayers being allowed to know how the code they paid for counts their votes works.

[BootinUp]

160. The machines should be thoroughly tested

The code should not be open source. Any code can be hacked. Open sourcing it is making it a certainty that it will be hacked.

[w4rma]

170. Closed source doesn't protect them from hacking by insiders.

And it really doesn't protect them from hacking by regular voters either, with all the copies of the source code that have been leaked.

Let's also try a different tact. Let's also look at this from another point of view:
Electronic voting machines are bad because a very very large and growing number of people do not trust the integrity of their vote while using them. If people do not trust their vote is being counted then people will begin to look for non-democratic methods to change regimes (this is why the integrity of voting in democracies is so important).

Even if you don't understand the technical 'jibjab' about how computerized voting works (I am trained in this field. I do understand, btw.). Then surely you can understand the problems with this method of 'going through the motions to vote' enough to oppose these black box voting machines on the grounds that they undermine confidence in our democracy. Right?

[BootinUp]

174. see post #63

[w4rma]

214. That was the initial post I responded to.

Also, as an aside, if the "machines development should be publically funded not private enterprises" then I couldn't see there being any other choice except to use open source code.

[BootinUp]

215. There is plenty of programming code

that is bought by the government for instance in weapons systems, that is not open source. There is nothing wrong with that model that I can think of for this purpose. It should be the testing regimen that proves the system works, a gauntlet of tests, government auditing of the whole process, and a final approval and testing by some independent panel of experts and interested citizens. They could even challenge experts to hack it, they could use it to unofficialy count votes in a few elections. etc.

One propriety model, non networked.

Opened and inspected by State workers each election and then sealed with a special tamper proof indicating seal.

After the election any tampered with boxes are cause for a re running of the election shoud those boxes contain enough votes to change the election result.

Every election a partial audit to verify machine accuracy is performed by an independent auditing authority on random machines.

Something like that.

[Joe Chi Minh]

181. "The machines should be thoroughly tested"

Then thrown out with the trash.

Before they were ever introduced, the instigators should, themselves, have been obliged to prove their imperviousness to fraudulent interference.

With a paper trail and auditors of integrity, it could at least be proved whether or not the machines had, in fact, been fraudulently tampered with. But, in any event, in very principle, any automated system, because intrinsically unsound, and inferior to pen, paper, a ballot-box (preferably transparent in the US), a secure chain of handling up to public counting and publication of the result, iis a no-no.

Incidentally, Adam Smith, whom the corporatists claim as their Capitalist guru, was their sworn enemy, stating that businessmen should be kept out of government, as their perspective was entirely self-interested. His "Hidden Hand" was not the Market-Place, but Morality. Indeed, Smith was a moral philosopher, not an economist, at least formally.

[BootinUp]

183. wholeheartedly agree

with your disdain for the process of approving and aquiring the use of machines with obvious flaws. Similar to how I am shocked that paper punch machines like those that produced the hanging chads were ever bought and used.

But to make a case that paper ballots and manual counting is not fraught with problems as well is to ignore plenty of evidence to the contrary. There is no manual counting process without error. There is no reason to believe that paper ballot elections are not subject to willful fraud. There is little reason other than our side has lost several elections in a row to raise quite the ruckus that has been raised about election fraud.

[RaleighNCDUer]

201. Little reason, if you are willing to ignore all the fucking polls.

Which you are obviously doing.

Polls were invented as a business tool, to discover the public trends, to prevent costly mistakes in the marketplace. You don't create an idea, manufacture a product, mount an ad campaign, all at great expense, without knowing that there is a market for that product.

The republican business party knows how to poll - and they know that polls are accurate, withing easily determined margins of error. Chamblis defeating Cleland was so far outside the margin of error of the pre-election polls that it was a million to one chance that election was not fraudulant.

Voted and tabulated on those machines you seem to love so much.

But you obviously are dismissing the argument without examining the evidence - and don't ask again "what evidence" - just read the thread, there are plenty of links, or visit the election fraud forum here. The truth is out there, but there is none so blind as he who will not see.

[BootinUp]

202. polls

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/vote2002/races/ga_11-05-02....


You know, turnout in a midterm can make a hell of a difference and make a pollsters job of predicting very difficult. I think if you read the link above you will find that your version of events is greatly exaggerated. Why am I having this argument? Becuase I love the machines? No, because I do not agree with Democrats claiming we didn't lose, don't worry just get rid of these machines and everything will be ok. What a bunch of f'in bs.

[Joe Chi Minh]

206. With this little post, you've really disqualified yourself from

serious consideration on here. No ifs or buts. Bye.....

[BootinUp]

207. Sorry you can't disqualify me.

You can't refute my points very well either I guess.

[Joe Chi Minh]

211. Alas, I don't have to do either.

[Joe Chi Minh]

205. On the contrary. Yes, no system of balloting is fraud-proof, but

there is no comparison in the levels of susceptibility to fraud, given even a half law-abiding government. Surely, you realise that?

[melody]

101. It's not just a matter of rioting in the streets

In any nation without free elections, there is always a form of depression that settles over people. They don't work as hard. They don't buy as much. They don't hope as much. They don't invest at all. The GOP will have a lot worse things than simple riots on their hands if they steal this. And those things are entirely legal.

[RaleighNCDUer]

150. And what makes you think they're not doing both?

There's already repub rumors about Chavez owning part of a voting company, making our elections suspect - though repubs owning all the others never did. Every obvious error up front, reported and dealt with, shows they are coping with a glitchy system, but the system works. Then they ensure the results for themselves at the back end, where nobody's looking.

The problem is with the tabulators. It's the tabulators that tell us that 125% of the district's registered voters cast ballots, when we know a 60% turnout is extraordinary. By keeping us focused on the touchscreens, attention is deflected from the tabulators.

[intheflow]

21. I agree.

I've been watching this for a few days, now, and the media has been playing into it like the good little toadies they are. Again they will tout this amazing showing by Republican voters, "proving" once again that polls are inaccurate, or that they are conducted only by Democratic opertaives, or anthing, anything other than the obvious fact that the elections are being fixed. Then they'll bury stories over the next two years about how machines malfunctioned, ate voter data, switched votes from Dem or Repuke, about how whistleblowers come forward with sworn testimony about election fraud in favor of Repukes, about how election officials are being indicted all over the country for fixing votes for Repukes, about Jimmy Carter and the UN calling for fair, open, and publicly monitored elections in the US.

[Cleita]

22. I hope in the states where this has been documented that the

citizens demand a hand recount be done twice, once by each party.

[Occulus]

31. Yes, but can you hand recout 01101010011101010010100?

I can't.

[Hav]

38. .

Without paper trail, you have to trust the machines. I don't.
And even with a paper trail, we don't know how a machine records a vote.
The only thing that really shows the true intent of the voter is a paper ballot. Apparently, Repubs can't win elections when it's the voters who decide it. They need machines who "interpret" the will of the voter for them.

[Cleita]

41. So what are you guys going to do to demand a recall election

with paper ballots and a hand count if the numbers are suspiciously close in numbers or not close to the exit polls? You people are going to have to force your pols to do the right thing. Our country wasn't originally won with wimps who allowed the first King George to run roughshod over them. Neither should we.

[Hav]

49. .

I'm not an American but you are right, that's the point that makes me so sick. Your ancestors didn't get all these rights and freedoms as a present. They had to fight for them and it was a bloody battle with many lost lives.
And it's the same for most countries, for example France and Germany. Some of them even had America as a role model. They saw what is possible and they took it to the streets, risking everything. There were setbacks and brutal answers from those in power, but at least they fought for it and eventually they won.
People in the past fought for our rights. I value these rights, too many obviously don't and that's sad because their apathy will have negative consequences for all of us.

[Cleita]

39. In states that have scanners, you can count the paper ballots that

were scanned by hand. It's too bad that in states with no source document ballots, that provisions weren't made for a recall election with a paper ballot and a hand count. It's the only way I could think of to right a wrong.

If in those states with paperless votes and where the vote is really close, I hope the citizens take to the streets and demand a recall election with hand counted paper ballots. As long as you let them get away with this, they will keep doing it.

I'm sure they will try anything because they are really afraid of losing. It could mean them being investigated for treason and war crimes if the face of Congress changes.

[roamer65]

74. Yeah, exactly.

Michigan has scanned, paper ballots. We're very easily recountable and have fairly clean elections. Maybe this will be the start of the voters' revolt. I hope...

[Cleita]

43. See my post #39. It was meant for you but I accidentally posted

it there. I for one have been fooled in too many elections since 2000. I don't believe this election is going to be any different. So if you want two more years of Republican dictatorship let them cheat again. If you want to reclaim your country, you are going to have to put the pressure on with as many legal means as you can to catch them in the act.

I believe the courts can help here. I am not a lawyer but I'm sure there is some way of stopping the certification of an election to either count the vote again or insist on a recall election. I believe if the candidate who believes they have lost illegally, does take this to the courts, then we have the obligation to send them the money they need to accomplish this. If the candidate seems like he/she is going to concede too quickly don't let them. Make them drag this out until you achieve the real vote.

On edit: Sorry I did post it in the right place.

[elehhhhna]

71. The paperwork's been prepped.

No concessions this time.

No retreat. No surrender.

[magellan]

182. Hand recounts are banned in FL

And the machines are paperless in any case, except for the opti-scanners.

[Cleita]

189. You guys better go to court, preferably the Florida Supreme

Court to have that law declared unconstitutional and undemocratic, which I would think it is. I'm not a lawyer, but making any methods to achieve honest and transparent elections illegal seems to me to be against any states' constitutions.

[hpot]

32. F U Jeb Bush for Screwing up early voting

Florida has made it more difficult to vote on paper for early voters. I had to drive across town to get an absentee paper ballot since they are not available in our local polling place before election day.

[spanone]

35. So when this happens when this occurs, do they reverse your vote????

Or are you just SCREWED.

[radfringe]

36. has anyone asked why only DEM votes are being flipped?

any complaints being mentioned about it flipping repub votes to dem votes?

the "official" excuse is that it's a computer programming "glitch"...

I'm no big computer programmer, but I have had a few classes in computer programming and other software which "writes" programs - so I understand the basic logic that is used in writing programs

essentially the program should be a straight forward "counting" program. there would be 2 main variable types - the variable which allows someone to set up the machine with candidate's names, and the variable that recognizes a vote and counts it for "x" candidate. (you could set up a program in MS-ACCESS,or even write a simple one using BASIC - this type of program is not that complicated)

so if it's a "glitch" - the frequency of the glitch would be the same for flipping a dem vote for a repub or flipping a repub vote for a dem...

meanwhile - if it were just a "glitch" - it should have been discovered during testing and quality control procedures before the software/machines even left the factory.

[Hav]

37. .

Exactly my thoughts.
When will more and more in the media finally make this point and discuss why "glitches" (wink wink) pretty much always favour Repubs? It makes me sick! It can't be a coincidence, yet the large majority just doesn't care and looks the other way. This is America and not a third world banana republic. The Media should be all over this and hammer it.
When a "mistake" concerning this subject always favours one party, then it's not a mistake anymore. It is time for Americans to finally do something about it. It is about their rights and their future.

I hope that at least people like Olberman make it a topic.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

75. Good Lord!

Did you just suggest running our elections on MS Access?!?!?

[B3Nut]

78. Isn't that what Diebold was using last go-around?

I seem to recall part of the discussion re: Diebold's flakiness being their use of an Access backend, which I thought was rather silly...Access can't be trusted for much more than storing Aunt Gertrude's cookie recipes...

Todd in Beerbratistan

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

80. The Jet DB engine is fine.

It's just everything that Access puts on top of it that's horribly, horribly wrong.

[radfringe]

171. no - I'm just saying

this type of program is not that complicated to create. The "logic" and "coding" is not rocket science.

It's a simple enough type of program that GLITCHES should have been caught during initial testing.

[Marnieworld]

191. uh yah, what did you think they used?

I'm pretty sure diebold uses MS Access as the foundation of their program with very little security or a universal database password. Hence why people have been screaming about this.

[greeneyedboy]

40. if our margins are big enough, it's not stealable. and...

if we don't win fair and square, it's not stolen.

so why not focus on doing what we can do to build the margin of victory?

yes, monitor the elections and fight like hell against dirty tricks. but the tone of these posts *discourages* participation and encourages passivity. how does that help our cause?

[HardRocker05]

44. Uh, why not? The margin would have to be 2:1 dem before anybody

would do anything. I say address the real problem, which is election theft, rather than expect dems to win every election by landslide margins. Btw, no one is saying that people shouldn't vote.

[greeneyedboy]

48. because of the number of precincts involved. think about it.

[Zhade]

139. Master tabulators. Think about THAT.

Easy. As. Pie.

[Warren DeMontague]

45. The second this happens, it should be treated as a crime scene.

Cordon off the machine, impound it, and examine it forensically to see what's going on with the software.

[donsu]

51. agree with you 100 percent!

nt

[slackmaster]

54. Absolutely right

If I ever experience anything like that, I won't leave until the FBI is on scene and the machine is red-tagged.

[leftchick]

58. they can't until a law is changed

they all have private code and the companies won't let anyone view it except a person from the Vote Machine company. Pretty slick, eh?

[Warren DeMontague]

100. You can get a search warrant for anything.

I'd have to believe that if there is reasonable suspicion a felony is being committed (and isn't vote fraud a felony?) they could get a warrant.

Not that I have a ton of hope for any of that to happen, but that's what should.

[hpot]

61. F.B.I. , WHERE ARE YOU!!????

I know many agents still have honesty and integrity. These crimes are crossing state lines!! Please contact the FBI for an investigation and examine the machines + source code!!

Has anyone called them yet??

[file83]

66. They are here at the DU, reading your post, laughing...

because they are wondering, "What makes you think we wouldn't want the party in power that has given us SO MUCH POWER?"

The day the FBI investigates election fraud is the day election fraud swings the votes towards DEMOCRATS.

Until then, they are looking the other direction.

[pushycat]

70. Would they really look the other way, or is there another stand

down order? It is so obvious the vote is suspect most people would no longer argue about that. Can't wait to see Gonzo answer to the people when the Dems start their investigations!!!! That creep and Mr. Mueller have a lot of splainin to do..

[AzDar]

46. Send this to Lou Dobbs and Keith Olbermann..... n/t

[coco77]

50. The main thing is to vote...

some of them are posting here daily, trying to stifle are vote because they are DESEPERATE!

[porphyrian]

55. They want us to give up.

Vote, dammit. We can beat them with numbers.

[greeneyedboy]

68. exactly. passivity & fatalism are our enemies.

[caligirl]

56. Isent this to Keith Olberman, the Nev. dem party, Missouri dem part

Reid, Pelosi, demvote. basically trying to get attention on this now well before election day. take your video cameras with you to vote get photographic proof.

[New Earth]

57. oops

didn't realize this was in GD, in case you saw my original post..

So all those positive thinking people can just stop now. It's not worth the pain again, guys.

[AspenRose]

69. I hope Bobby (Kennedy) and (Mike) Papantonio are watching closely too

eom

[AntiFascist]

76. Why did we expect anything different?

If there is a corrupt opportunity to be taken advantage of, they will take advantage of it.

[AnneD]

85. Where is Bush going....

that is where the votes will be flipped. Already today on of the news channels was talking about how the last minute WRITE IN, yes I said WRITE in candidate in DeLay's district had gained on Lampson and it was a dead heat. He has been double digits until this week and Bush came out her today to campaign for her. I am starting to smell a stink in Sugarland!

[AntiFascist]

89. I've always said, election fraud works hand in hand with media polls

The media makes it appear like there's some sort of a comeback, the polls become biased, and the people are conditioned to expect the results of the election fraud. Exit polls are then made to appear faulty. This has happened prior to every previous election where Bush has made his magical appearances.

[bobbie]

178. Are they even doing election polls this time?

After all, they were *so inaccurate* in 2004...or so the propaganda will go.

[AntiFascist]

208. Velvet Revolution is organizing its own independent exit polls....

as part of its "Election Protection Strike Force". Here's more info:

http://www.velvetrevolution.us/electionstrikeforce/2006...

Working in conjunction with Election Integrity.org's Vote Count Protection Project, Velvet Revolution is commissioning exit polls in key jurisdictions across the country, providing a crucial check on voting systems. We've hired an internationally-renowned exit polling firm to conduct the polls so that we can make them immediately available to analysts and the public.

[bobbie]

212. Wow, thank you for that info AntiFascist

I hope they're trustworthy ('scuse me for my flaming paranoia, but hey...).
They do have some good people on their media list, so that's encouraging.

[greeneyedboy]

93. that is B.S.. it was actually 36-22 or 36-19 but the headline distorted the facts.

see the other threads on TX-22.

Lampson (D) gets 36%. the same percentage said they would vote for "a write-in".
of those, 79% said they would vote for the Republican. only 2/3 of those know how to vote write-in.

so really, the D is way ahead of the R, in Tom Delay's district.

and some on DU are trying to turn this into bad news.

[AnneD]

95. Did you HEAR the way they reported it

this morning on Channel 11. They all but crowned Sukula Gibbs.

[greeneyedboy]

96. in the media biz, they need an exciting horse race. Dem landslide is exciting for one day only.

so they need to come up with new "angles" every day.

as soon as one wears thin, they come up with another one. they've got to fill up their pages and minutes, and they're too cowardly and cheap to pay for actual reporting, so this is what we get.

[MasonJar]

90. We need to advertise to warn people. Now. Every incident must

be documented. I am going to the streets this time, if we have proof.

[JBear]

97. OK, I've had it!

This is so amazing to me. I had a revelation while sitting on my test machine at work today clicking away on my touch screen laptop. I make thousands of selections on a touch screen a day and NEVER have a problem with selecting the wrong item. Simple things keep this from being a problem. You have buttons that are large enough that there is a fair amount of space to aim at. You have separation from button to button so that there are deadzones between selections. You have clearly ledgible fonts against contrasting backgrounds....HOW HARD IS THIS????

When are the American people going to wake up and see that when ALL of the errors favor one party, and the errors are not bloody likely to begin with that someone is hacking our democracy!

*grumble*

[cyberpj]

110. Even better - Diebold makes ATMs. If you can get a receipt there.......

you can get a recepit from a voting machine AND - somehow they manage to keep all those bank accounts TABULATED CORRECTLY!!!

[stepnw1f]

103. We Have a GREAT CASE BUILDING Already right before the Election

I see this as a positive...

[berni_mccoy]

105. PLEASE, tell me how to see this as a positive...

[stepnw1f]

106. Enough Proof is Coming Out to Pin Point That This Election

has been compromised by the equipment we are voting on. We have an excellent chance to challenge any results that appear to be "rigged"....

Keep fighting and don't give up...

[berni_mccoy]

107. Then no one gets elected

As that kind of battle will not be resolved quickly. We'll be stuck with the dipshits we have.

Maybe this is why the MSM has been reporting on "voting issues" and we've recently seen the stories claiming to tie Sequoia Voting machines to Chavez. If the repukes can make any complaints as well, the courts may decide to invalidate *any* contested election...

[babsbunny]

104. Anyone know how to send this out to Keith Olbermann

And Lou Dobbs? Quick?

[kskiska]

111. Ohio

Could this be a r/w paper?

Will a shocking new GOP court victory and Karl Rove's attack on Ohio 2006 doom the Democrats nationwide?

by Bob Fitrakis & Harvey Wasserman
October 30, 2006

COLUMBUS---With a major GOP federal court victory, the Ohio 2006 election has descended into the calculated chaos that has become the trademark of a Karl Rove election theft, and that could help keep the Congress in Republican hands nationwide.

Through a complex series of legal maneuvers, and now a shocking new decision from the 6th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals, the GOP has thrown Ohio's entire process of voting and vote counting into serious disarray. The mess is perfectly designed to suppress voter turnout, make election monitoring and a recount impossible, and allow the Republican Party to emerge with a victory despite overwhelming evidence the electorate wants exactly the opposite.

The disaster in Ohio began immediately after the theft of the presidential election here in 2004. Though the majority of Ohioans are registered Democrats, the gerrymandered state legislature is overwhelmingly Republican. Soon after John Kerry conceded, it passed House Bill 3, a draconian assault on voter registration drives, voting rights and the ability to secure reliable recounts of federal-level elections.

In brief, HB3 stacked a virtually impossible set of requirements onto the voter registration process. As elsewhere nationwide, voting has traditionally involved citizens coming to the polls and signing a poll book. Upon a signature check from a poll worker, a ballot has been given. A similar process has been in effect for absentee ballots. There is no recent evidence this method has encouraged significant voter fraud.


more…
http://www.freepress.org/departments/display/19/2006/22...

[New Earth]

117. are you asking if freepress is RW?

if so, NO NOT AT ALL. they are great.

[lovuian]

112. Crooks steal votes steal money steal our futures

calle them republicans

[Mr_Spock]

114. I feel like I'm in high school

This is a ridiculous thread.

[greeneyedboy]

115. me too. "concerned" folks: go out and get some fresh air--maybe volunteer or something.

[berni_mccoy]

116. So why post in it then? You're only perpetuating it by doing so.

[New Earth]

118. um

you feel like you're in high school because someone is pointing out that there is already fraud going on in the elections?

[Mr_Spock]

121. lol - they're stealing votes that haven't even been cast yet!

Do people here lose their minds during election time?

This is taking away from what we should be doing here!

[berni_mccoy]

123. People are so clueless here

The EARLY VOTING is going on now. Some states/districts have them. The ones that do are showing DEFINITIVE signs of fraud. If the "glitches" were consistently for both sides, I don't think this would be a story, BUT THEY ARE CONSISTENTLY CHANGING DEM VOTES TO REPUB.

I'm amazed I even have to explain that on DU.

[greeneyedboy]

128. yes, dirty tricks have an effect on close races. not on landslides.

i am with you that fraud has occurred, and don't doubt for a second that the GOP will get away with whatever it can, but fortunately, if you have a basic awareness of how elections work, you know that there is a limit to what they can get away with.

meanwhile, all this concern is a big energy suck, when what is most important in the home stretch is building up safer margins in the close races.

[berni_mccoy]

129. I'm not concerned, I'm pissed that they are STEALING it

You admit that election fraud is being comitted. And you elude to the fact that the damage is limited in scope. Well, we are within 1-2 seats of the senate. And in the days before election machines, certainly, election fraud could be limited.

The problem is, voting machines make it possible to fraud an entire election. That's what we are seeing here. 4-5 STATES are having problems now. How many more are we going to accept?!?!

[greeneyedboy]

130. no one machine can generate a victory margin for an entire state

or congressional district. do you understand how elections work, and the fact that many many many different precincts are involved?

yes, the Senate will be close. so what is more helpful: moan about how it's already stolen, or work to tip it to the Democrats?

[berni_mccoy]

135. I know how computers and software work

And I know these machines can be compromised in just a few seconds.

And SPREADING THE WORD on it is what MANY OF US have been doing since 2004 and before. BUT NO ONE CARES.

These guys play dirty, and they will play dirty ALL THE WAY, FOR KEEPS.

If you have any doubt, you have not been looking hard enough.

[New Earth]

136. moaning?

again

people need to know what's happening and of course it won't be covered on the news.
no one is saying to stay home and not vote. but that doesn't mean all shouldn't be informed of what's happening.

[Zhade]

142. Yes, they can. They're called master tabulators. Look it up.

They're in use, and they can indeed do what you think the can't, quite easily.

[magellan]

184. Ha ha ha, landslides!

How do you prove there was a landslide when you only know for certain how YOU voted? How do you prove a landslide when exit polls and public opinion polls were effectively dismissed by the GOP in '04 as unreliable?

How do you prove landslides with vapor votes and in states where hand recounts are against the law?

Is any of this getting through?

[Zhade]

141. Uh, you DO know early voting is going on, right?

Maybe you shouldn't be so quick to laugh at people who, you know, actually know what they're talking about.

[Zen]

152. There are people here that have had votes stolen?

I haven't heard of a single person who has stated such - only rumors. Not saying it isn't happening, but this isn't like documenting a miracle - it should be easy enough to document.

[Zhade]

159. Er, where did I say that?

Did you reply to the wrong post...?

[Marnieworld]

192. So we are crazy and immature

But you clearly aren't even aware of early voting.

[Up2Late]

122. Welcome to my world, this has been happening in Georgia since 2002...

...but nobody ever believes us or ever investigates it. Plus, they won't let you vote here if you have a camera or even a cell phone on.

This is exactly why I was worried about what KKKarl said to Robert Segal on NPR the other day!

Here's the link below:

Rove Sees No GOP Fall in the 2006 Election

Listen to this story...(at link)

All Things Considered, October 24, 2006 · Karl Rove, President Bush's top political strategist, says he doesn't believe the polls -- at least the public polls that claim the Republicans are likely to lose the House of Representatives and possibly even the Senate on Election Day.

"I see several things," Rove says. "I'm allowed to see the polls on the individual races. And after all, this does come down to individual contests between individual candidates."

In addition to polls not generally available to the public, Rove says the Republicans have a huge financial advantage in the home stretch.

Citing spending and contribution reports, Rove said, "at the end of August, in 30 of the most competitive races in the country -- the House races -- the Republicans had $33 million cash on hand and Democrats had just over $14 million."

(more and audio at link) <http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=63... >

[BootinUp]

125. What makes you think

Cleland didn't just get his clock cleaned in the great repuke state of georgia? The ads run against him, the war mongering and all, CLeland was against the Patriot act, bla bla bla. The fundies rose up and smote him.

[Zhade]

143. You clearly don't know about the machine issues in that race.

Stunning, considering how that's been covered here ever since it happened in real-time.

[BootinUp]

149. Prove the charge.

I'll be glad to read your summary of the evidence.

[Up2Late]

169. Because it did happen with Diebold counting the votes, and I never saw...

...that commercial that everyone always talks about, not once! That commercial didn't do it, Diebold and the Rethugs did.

Another part of that election that nobody ever seems to remember is, this was the same election that flipped the Georgia Senate from D to R and almost flipped the House, that happened in 2004, giving the Republicans Full control of the Georgia State House for the first time since 1871!

It's really hard to find any news reports about the 2002 election for Georgia State Government now, so here are the result, you can count up the results if you want: <http://www.sos.state.ga.us/ELECTIONS/election_results/d... >

And it was also the election that the incumbent Democratic Governor, who all the polls showed him (Barnes) ahead 48 to 39 percent the last month before the election, but then Perdue "winning" by a margin of 52 to 45 percent, a 13 POINT Switch!

And the U.S. Senate race was a 8 point switch from what the polls were saying. Pretty normal stuff, huh?

<http://www.alternet.org/story/16474 >

...USA Today reported on Nov. 3, 2002, "In Georgia, an Atlanta Journal-Constitution poll shows Democratic Sen. Max Cleland with a 49%-to-44% lead over Republican Rep. Saxby Chambliss." Cox News Service, based in Atlanta, reported just after the election (Nov. 7) that, "Pollsters may have goofed" because "Republican Rep. Saxby Chambliss defeated incumbent Democratic Sen. Max Cleland by a margin of 53 to 46 percent. The Hotline, a political news service, recalled a series of polls Wednesday showing that Chambliss had been ahead in none of them."

Just as amazing was the Georgia governor's race. "Similarly," the Zogby polling organization reported on Nov. 7, "no polls predicted the upset victory in Georgia of Republican Sonny Perdue over incumbent Democratic Gov. Roy Barnes. Perdue won by a margin of 52 to 45 percent. The most recent Mason Dixon Poll had shown Barnes ahead 48 to 39 percent last month with a margin of error of plus or minus 4 points."

Almost all of the votes in Georgia were recorded on the new touchscreen computerized voting machines, which produced no paper trail whatsoever. And nobody thought to ask for a new chip, although it was noted on Nov. 8 by the Atlanta Constitution-Journal that in downtown Atlanta's predominantly Democratic Fulton County "election officials said Thursday that memory cards from 67 electronic voting machines had been misplaced, so ballots cast on those machines were left out of previously announced vote totals." Officials added that all but 11 of the memory cards were subsequently found and recorded.

Similarly, as the San Jose Mercury News reported in a Jan. 23, 2003 editorial titled "Gee Whiz, Voter Fraud?" "In one Florida precinct last November, votes that were intended for the Democratic candidate for governor ended up for Gov. Jeb Bush, because of a misaligned touchscreen. How many votes were miscast before the mistake was found will never be known, because there was no paper audit." ("Misaligned" touchscreens also caused 18 known machines in Dallas to register Republican votes when Democratic screen-buttons were pushed: it's unknown how many others weren't noticed.)...

(Much more at link) <http://www.alternet.org/story/16474 >

Then there was all this:

<http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0928-31.htm >

Published on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 by the Huffington Post

America's Next Election Nightmare

by Andrew Gumbel


In the 2000 presidential election we had Katherine Harris. In 2004 it was Kenneth Blackwell. And now a new horror show is about to play out in the troubled landscape of America’s dysfunctional democracy – yet another top state election official who also happens to be openly cheer leading for one side in a race for high office.

The new poster-child for how not to run elections is Cathy Cox, the Secretary of State of Georgia. Only she comes with an added twist. She won’t merely be helping to run someone else’s campaign in next year’s mid-terms; she will be running for office herself.

Cox, a Democrat, was the first Secretary of State to champion and purchase an all-electronic touch screen voting system for her state. She persuaded Georgia to spend an initial $54 million on a hitherto untried Diebold system in 2002, and has tried ever since to parlay the e-voting revolution she helped launch into a bid for the Georgia governorship in November 2006. “Advancing the e-government revolution,” is the slogan on her website.

Contrary to the fine rhetoric, however, a raft of official documents obtained exclusively by the Huffington Post – including the original contract signed with Diebold and a flurry of six amendments that followed between July 2002 and December 2004, as well as official correspondence and legal papers – show that Cox’s management of Georgia elections has been little short of a disaster. The documents were obtained by way of multiple public records requests, most of them coordinated by the Georgia voting rights activist Roxanne Jekot and her organization, Count The Vote.

The documentary record shows that elections were run on software that was not only untested but also uncertified, that key components broke down during live elections, that county officials were left clueless on how to operate the new machines because of a breakdown in the training schedule, and that the cost of installing the electronic touch-screen system jumped dramatically beyond the advertised $54 million, without proper legislative oversight or approval. None of this has previously been made public.

Among the most shocking findings:

(More at link) <http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0928-31.htm >

Here's one more: <http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0131-01.htm >

I know what happened here, I LIVE HERE!

[BootinUp]

187. Im farther north

There aren't even any signs that a Democratic Party exists here.

What I think you overlook, is that the Bush administration and the Republican party and their allies in the Protestant churches really made hay on their strategy of divide and conquer by 2002.

[Up2Late]

195. What I think you overlook is that you're living in a Fantasy World up there...

... in the North, but down here in the real world, we know this is happening.

Don't think I didn't read your reply to that other DU Member about "Prove the charge." Sorry, that's just not how it works in Elections. The burden of proof is on the people running the election, not on the voters, and the people running the elections with these e-voting machine have always refused to prove they are counting the votes fairly.

Read the articles I gave you links to, or find your own where they didn't oppose the fair and unbiased investigations of these machines.

Prove the charge, let me ask you something, when you buy a car or truck, do you expect the car manufacturer to have tested the car and it's safety systems to prove that the car is safe to drive, or does the manufacturer sell you the car and tell you, "Go on, prove to us that the Car is Un-safe."??

"Prove the charge" is a ridiculous argument.

[BootinUp]

197. ok, then

it must have been stolen.

What is it you don't get about challenging an election result? The candidate has that ability if he thinks there was massive fraud. Fuck it, I 've had enough of this thread.

[mirandapriestly]

133. There is nothing to stop them

Why do people think that "positive thinking" is going stop the GOP from stealing it? They have figured out which ones to steal and have the appropriate machines and methods in place. They will get just enough to prevent the dems from getting a majority and they will just squeak over 50% , like they did the last two times and in the Mexican election. Then they will say that the democrats were too confident and that the GOP have been working quietly to get every single voter out or something like that. In a local race I have already heard that one from a confident, but behind in the polls Gop candidate. There is no way they are going to let democrats win a majority there is too much at stake for them and they are totally corrupt and want total power, not what is best for the country. What do people think, that they are going to decide to be ethical just this once? Why on earth would they not do it? There are enough hackable machines and there are enough voters who "won't notice" being purged and will fill out a provisional and think they have voted.

[brentspeak]

194. Oh my gosh! There's nothing we can do!!!!!

(Good grief)

[Azathoth]

140. Enough of this bullshit anecdotal evidence

Everybody and their grandmother has a cell phone that can record short videos. Why has it not occurred to anyone to document such a "glitch"? The instant a short video clip appears on YouTube or CNN showing a Diebold machine actually switching a vote from Democrat to Republican, this issue will garner immediate mainstream attention. Until then, this is nothing but a bunch of partisans trying to come up with an excuse for why they lost the election.

[Zhade]

145. Hope you carry a cellphone.

And I agree, videos should be posted on YouTube or whatever, because this HAS happened to people.

[Zen]

151. Sad to say but you are one of the few making sense here

This is tiring

[RaleighNCDUer]

196. The flips that really matter don't show up on any touchscreen.

They happen in the tabulators - you know, the ones that compile the total votes to find that precinct X enjoyed a 120% turnout.

How can any precinct or district or whatever get a turnout of more than 100% of the registered voters? And, I'm inclined to doubt even the 90-100% in a country where a 60% turnout is spectacular. From whence the vapor vote?

From the Diebold/ES&S/Sequoia tabulators.

[Jack Rabbit]

144. When the votes are counted, they had better meet expectations

Kiev, 2005
Photo: Ukrainian Embassy, Belgium

[Zhade]

147. Watch this video.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=MNYA5ggwG84

[Azathoth]

156. That's nice, but all it proves is that the machines are vulnerable

Which everyone knows, and which most people figure is just another example of a politically-motivated government contract resulting in a poor, substandard, and/or defective product or service.

If anything, this video disproves the accounts of vote-switching, because the purpose of the video is to demonstrate how electronic vote-stealing would ACTUALLY be accomplished. The whole point the Princeton group was trying to make is that it would be done quietly and undetectably. Do you honestly think that if someone was going to hack the machines in order to steal votes, they would use software that would alert the voter to the fact that their vote was being switched? If they did that to hundreds or thousands of people, the law of averages states that some young, intrepid voter is gonna get pissed and pull out his/her cell phone to document it...which hasn't happened.

I'm not saying that some of the machines haven't been compromised, but I'm inherently skeptical of the anecdotal Bigfoot sightings that come in from "loyal Democrats" who claim that their voting machine told them "Ha ha, you're voting for a Republican whether you like it or not!"

[slackmaster]

213. Princeton researchers who made the video had this to say about it

Have the vote-stealing methods you discuss ever been used in real elections?

Probably not, but we don't know for sure. We haven't seen evidence that these attacks have been used, but one lesson of our report is that the design of these voting technologies makes attacks relatively easy to cover up.

Do you think any recent major U.S. elections were stolen?

No. We know some people are claiming this happened, but we don't find their evidence convincing.

See http://itpolicy.princeton.edu/voting/faq.html

[Kablooie]

165. VIDEO YOUR VOTE!!! Everyone, Video the screen AS YOU VOTE!

If there is fraud there HAS to be proof or else they've suceeded.
If you video AFTER you've voted there is no proof.

We have to have people anticipating a problem BEFORE it occurs!

We only need a few actual videos to get MSM attention.

[BlooInBloo]

166. Betcha just one would suffice.

[Imagevision]

176. Get your "Blue" coats and get ready just like they did in the Ukraine

Rove/Bush expect Dems to wither away after announcing; "the polls got it all wrong? ... again?!! sad day for americans when your votes are being stolen.

[PATRICK]

177. The logic of VISIBLE vote flipping

and the impunity of the fact it is always in GOP favor. It accomplishes ALL of the following things on behalf of the GOP. It shows what they can get away with. It establishes fixable "glitches" as an excuse when more secret manipulations are not on the public radar. It delays the voting, piling up confused voters and poll workers, shutting down the process in those "special" precincts. It discourages the Democrats who see the impunity the GOP intimidation. It catches the unwary who don't catch the flipping, providing a further excuse for odd results that NEVER receive any satisfaction or media call for satisfaction. ALL these things swirl and spin into "chaos" and finger pointing. Regardless that all fingers point in some way at the GOP, the chaos itself causes a cloud in which accountability escapes along with pre-lost verification and pre-lost voters. Chaos itself becomes THE theme and thieves who aren't elected in truth have no shame or regrets from their entrenched power.

It won't be enough this time unless the fraud is very daring but the party should be most concerned about the margins(in most races) and specific close races they(the GOP) choose to steel. Those targets should be obvious even in all the chaos, because in a nationwide race they can't be everywhere. They should stick out like sore thumbs with only the closeness itself of some races being a cloak added to invisible digital ballots. Logical factors include the relationship to statewide races that can't be
saved by cheating, the variety of available fraud, the clustering of like cases to en masse rescue the GOP majority. They won't settle for simply diminishing losses. They won't settle in their planning for diminishing GOP losses and losing the majority narrowly.

There will be some unpleasant surprises for democrats. THOSE should be obvious and targeted as well. The Bush cronies have no special friends in Congress, only raw numbers to formulate their meaningless rubber stamp. That should have been obvious with the fall of several otherwise valuable big shots before the elections. GOP mavericks, if any, will receive less benefit from fraud except as the Bush team is desperate for numbers.

Cheating will vary depending on the location. In my state it is severely limited by the absence of e-voting and heavy-handed voter suppression techniques. The discipline required is to take no ballot box or lever machine for granted, not one. Other than that it is the usual media, money ad blitz and GOTV staffed by GOP apparatchiks instead of local enthusiasts. In other states, unfortunately, the dangers multiply and are real and have to be accounted for and reduced- across the board if possible- one by one. The volunteers required and the brains and the techniques required to receive a full and accurate vote are staggering and up against the impunity which politicians of both parties have somewhat granted themselves and the "contest".

The effects will be there. The opposition will not be adequate. There will not be satisfaction for all wrongs done. And volunteers are needed more, in this reasoning, for the inescapable human wave of GOTV anti-GOP voters. The national party and the exit polls must be 100% more aggressive on the voting issue.

In particular, all the evidence must be gathered, not dissipated in chaotic outrage. In every instance where the machine shows a human face and a cheating hand it must be photographed, identified and promulgated in a relentless, disciplined fashion that law enforcement cannot deny. ALL the apparatchiks sent in violation of the spirit of the Hatch Act caught out in the open should be identified and put on notice. Let there not be just a call for "machine fixing" and cries of rage, but a call for justice and accountability commensurate with the crime against the nation. With the perps identified by name not as a faceless generic hiding behind their crooked machines.

[brentspeak]

193. First of all, quit panicking.

It's embarrasing. Children have more composure than what's been written by some posters on this thread.

Second of all, if vote flipping is actually occuring, document it with some proof, and bring it to the attention of the authorities. Anonymous "reports" cited on Bradblog are not evidence of anything.

[berni_mccoy]

198. Wow, how wrong can someone be! You may want to READ

the articles first.

Here's how wrong you are:
1. I am not panicking... I'm raising a red flag on FACTUAL REPORTS.
2. Brad-blog is reporting what's happening IN OTHER NEWS PAPERS
3. If you read the Miami Herald report, THREE NAMED people complained and the election staff ACKNOWLEDGED a) problems and b) that they weren't doing anything to solve them
4. What's really embarrassing is when critics like you can't be bothered to actually find out what's going on instead of buying into RW propaganda like 'glitches' and 'conspiracy theorists'

[brentspeak]

209. Where did I say that there are "glitches" or that election fraud can't happen?

I don't trust Diebold, nor any of the computer-programmed touchscreen machines. I did go to Bradblog to check out your links; none of them were reports from newspapers, and the Missouri one was anonymous -- a redacted email that Bradblog posted.

[Jcrowley]

216. Florida ballot terminals favor Republicans

Florida ballot terminals favor Republicans
Even when voters don't
By Thomas C Greene in Dublin ? More by this author
Published Tuesday 31st October 2006 13:15 GMT

Florida voters using electronic ballot machines are having persistent problems choosing Democrats in early elections, the Miami Herald reports.

The touch-screen gizmos seem strangely attracted to Republican candidates. One voter needed assistance from an election official, and even then, needed three tries to convince the machine that he wanted to vote for Democrat Jim Davis in the gubernatorial race, not his Republican opponent Charlie Crist.

Democrat across the board kept finding Republicans listed in the summary screen. He made repeated attempts until, finally, the machine registered his votes correctly, and he cast his ballot.
Yet another frustrated voter who complained of difficulties selecting a Democrat was told that the machine she was using had been troublesome. Poll workers fiddled with it for a bit, and then it seemed to work properly.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/10/31/florida_termina... /

Watch Ohio.

[RaleighNCDUer]

200. How do you document what you do not see?

The visible stuff on the touchscreens is just there to cause confusuion. The real theft is in the tabulators, which have the same sort of proprietory software as the vote machines, and if they are hacked they can flip not dozens or hundreds of votes, but thousands.

Are you willing to see the results do a 15 point flip from the polls, and just say "But there's no proof, so nevermind"? The proof, anywhere else in the world, is that there is a 15 point flip from the polls! That is how vote fraud is recognised everywhere, and has been for decades, except here and now.

"The polls are unreliable" the corporate party says. Yet it was the corporations that party represents that invented the polling/marketing techniques. If they don't know what the public wants, they lose millions. They know how to poll. To believe that the political polls, only, are unreliable requires the same level of gullibility that it takes to believe that the company that makes ATMs 99.99% flawless, because their money depends on it, cannot make vote machines that can 1)provide a paper trail, and 2)are prone to weird glitches in election after election after election.

There will always be vote fraud, but we don't have to make it easy for them. Hand counted paper ballots are the simplest, least fraud prone system we've ever devised. We MUST return to it.

[brentspeak]

210. The most important is to eliminate any software-based

vote counting system. Touchscreen, buttons -- doesn't matter; anything capable of being programmed in advance or hacked should be outlawed throughout the nation.

[Xenotime]

199. The don't know how to win...only steal