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whosinpower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-30-06 10:24 AM
Original message
I have a question
Sorry--said I'd be offline for a bit--but there was a very interesting radio talk this AM about impeachment...pros and cons.

The pro camp basically stated that it is the responsibility and DUTY of Congress to impeach the president and vice president for the invading Iraq, undermining the constitution, violating a variety of international treaties....etc.

The con camp agreed that Bush did all those things but basically stated that if democrats do this--they will definately lose the 2008 elections, because impeachment is a political process, and will take up allot of resources and time to do. And they will not get their minimum wage increase as they want.

They had snippets of Nancy Pelosi etc.

So--here is my question.....is impeachment the ONLY way for George W. Bush and company to face accountability???? Is there no other way??

And finally my own opinion on impeachment....I don't think the democrats have any choice really. They MUST impeach him if it is found that he deliberately misled congress into going along with invading Iraq. They must do this to uphold their responsibilities to the nation. This isn't just mere politics kiddies--this is much bigger than that. This is about the very foundation of America.....and if a president cannot be held accountable for what is a very grave war crime, upon which hundreds of thousands of people have died, and countless millions of taxpayer dollars wasted--because a bill for minimum wage will not pass.....well then the entire process is a joke, a lie, and the constitution itself a worthless shred of history....wasted by powermongering idiots.

Rant off now. Sorry.
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rurallib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-30-06 10:37 AM
Response to Original message
1. I am no expert
but from what I have heard I believe on Thom Hartmann there is precedent that criminal charges could be brought. I would imagine this would set off a never ending fireworks display by the right.
If Dems control at least one house we could begin at least with investigations which could at least have a chilling effect.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-30-06 10:38 AM
Response to Original message
2. History will hold bushco
accountable. Impeachment won't. Even if the dems have a slim majority, there are far too many dinos, for impeachment to stand a chance, and he certainly wouldn't be convicted in the Senate. He has less than 2 years in office left, and investigations don't exactly happen at lightening speed. That said, investigations absolutely should be held, and if it sugars off that there is an iron clad case against bushco, dems would have no choice but to institute impeachment.

But theres's so much that needs to be done should we gain the majority. I really want to see a focus on a positive agenda- raising the min wage, windfall taxes on big oil, making sure the tax cuts for the rich aren't permanent, keeping the estate tax from being repealed, opposing and investigating bushco's Iraq policies, and trying to extricate us from that fucked up war, expanding health care, and the list goes on and on. Impeachment is a pretty consuming task, and the dems wouldn't be able to accomplish any of the above if they zealously pursue it.
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jwirr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-30-06 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #2
10. We need to remember that Nixon resigned when it became clear
that he was guilty of at least one criminal offense: tax evasion. Investigations can go a long way in stifling the GOP. I think that 2008 will be a lot easier if the target is to replace *ss than if we are trying to replace an untried regime that has just taken over for *ss.

I would like to see *ss arrested for war crimes the minute he steps off the inauguration stand in 2009. Handing the reigns over to a Dem and not one to pardon him?
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napi21 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-30-06 10:40 AM
Response to Original message
3. Yes, impeachment is the ONLY way to hold the President accountable.
I happen to come down in the middle of this discussion.

I think the Dems hove no choice but to hold hearings on several infractions of this President.
Iraq
Bypassing the FISA Court
Illegal torture
Secret energy bill
etc.

With subpoena power, they should be able to get close to the truth in each situation.

IF impeachable offencesare discovered during these hearings, the new Congress will have no choice but to file a bill of impeachment.

I believe to commit to anything right now, before hearings would be a serious mistake on the part of the Dems, and it appears they know that.

There is another benefit to Impeachment that I haven't heard. I believe it would greatly improve our position in the view of the rest of the World. I keep hearing that MOSTforeign countries don't hate the American people, but they hate our government leaders. If WE THE PEOPLE punish those leaaders the only way we can, that would be a big step toward improvingthe image of the USA!


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marions ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-30-06 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #3
12. Agreed
it seems to me that the Democrats have no choice.

People will expect accountability if they control Congress. It will be hard, but therapy is always hard.
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Auggie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-30-06 10:43 AM
Response to Original message
4. What happens after he leaves office?
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The Deacon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-30-06 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. I'm Thinking...
..."Extraordinary Rendition" to the War Crimes Tribunal in The Hague?
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Auggie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-30-06 10:50 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. Yeah, I like it
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-30-06 10:45 AM
Response to Original message
5. I don't think there's a choice either. What is impeachment for?
Has this 'prez' and his cabal earned the shame that would ensue? If impeachment isn't applicable with this bunch, when would it be? And, once facts are exposed and the truth is known, I think even rethugs might jump on board, hoping their role as accomplices wouldn't be exposed. With any luck, he'd resign, sparing us all the lengthy process.
I just want this country and the world to know what has been done in our name and without our blessing.
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sutz12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-30-06 10:48 AM
Response to Original message
7. I don't think they can impeach on the invasion....
They covered their asses with the War Powers Vote. That's why Pelosi is talking that down. Bitch to the Dems who aupported that fiasco.

What they really need are investigations. The money scandals are where the impeachable crimes are.

The thing is, if investigations lead to impeachable crimes, Pelosi is off the hook on her "pledge not to impeach." Then she won't be bringing it, but can "reluctantly" move on it because a senior committee chairman brought it up.

The danger here is the perception that Pelosi will try to engineer her way into the Oval Office, a very real possibility if Shrub and Darth Vader can be ousted. She is the next in line.

One thing that might work is the Nixon/Ford strategy. Impeach and bring down Cheney first, then try to strong arm Shrub into appointing an "acceptable" replacement. That would be easier if we win the Senate. Then go after Bush. There probably isn't enough time, but that would raise fewer questions about Pelosi's motives.

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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-30-06 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. Operation Iraqi 'Freedom'
Who voted to authorize a war for the purpose of liberating Iraq? Nobody.

John Dean has already laid out the case that Bush's determination didn't meet the standards of the IWR. If people would quit calling that vote a vote for war, it'd be a whole lot easier to prove Bush did nothing but manipulate the people to go to war.
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Homer Wells Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-30-06 11:16 AM
Response to Original message
11. Seems strange that they did not mind
expending a lot of time and a hell of a lot of taxpayer $$$$ when it came to impeaching Clinton, and all they could get him on was lying about an extramarital sex act.

These asshats have absolutely NO SHAME.

:wtf:
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