There are more important issues than gay marriage

[omega minimo]

There are more important issues than gay marriage

IMHO

Those would be (in no particular order):

*An illegal, immoral, preemptive war of choice and profit that resulted in the destruction of a sovereign nation and its people, created a quagmire occupation, broke the military and destroyed countless American lives; that increased the terrorist threat for the entire planet and decreased the civil liberties of the American people.

*A twice appointed corporate power administration with no checks and balances and a rubber stamp Congress.

*An upcoming national election that has no guarantee of being free and fair, even after proof of fraud and disenfranchisement in the elections of 2000 and 2004.

*A toxic level of media consolidation that has supported, promoted and enabled the illegal, immoral, preemptive war of choice/profit, the twice appointed corporate power administration and the fraud and disenfranchisement in the elections of 2000 and 2004.

*A Constitutional crisis

However, if one is gay or lesbian, the marriage issue might eclipse other larger issues, if it is seen as another sort of disenfranchisement and a threat to one’s (and one’s family’s) very existence.

Comparisons are made to the civil rights movements of African Americans, who had to fight to abolish slavery, gain the right to vote and end segregation. Women too have had to fight for the right to vote and other equal rights under the law. The Equal Rights Amendment was passed by the Congress, but not enough states ratified it in time to make it law.

There was powerful cooperation between early “First Wave” feminists and the Abolitionists. What kind of coalition do we have now? Where is the cooperation between gays and lesbians who righteously challenge the gender status quo and the women who challenge it from a different angle? Would a successful Equal Rights Amendment lead to more equality for homosexuals? Would civil rights for gays and lesbians lead to more equality for women?

Gays and lesbians insist on equal treatment for civil rights and marriages; they insist that it is really very simple. But it isn’t simple at all. The supposed “protection” of marriage between a man and a woman is a mechanism to preserve a male/female gender (im)balance that underlies every aspect of our culture, our society, our religions, our politics and our economy.

So no-- it’s not simple. But by barging ahead as if it is, by skipping that step, gays and lesbians are demanding their right to simply exist. Some may look at the bigger picture. Some may not. They just want the right to live whatever’s left of The American Dream like everybody else.

So when the Republicans-- in their desperation-- trot out the Gay&Lesbian Frankenstein for Halloween, let’s not get too scared by their smoke and mirrors.

If some Democrats respond with concern that gay rights could hurt the outcome of the November election, let’s question the manipulative and skanky tactics of the Republicans rather than dispute the claim of homosexuals to equal treatment under the law. Let's question that compliant, complacent corporate media as it supports and broadcasts the hatemongers lies. Let's not buy into using "strategery" that we don't believe in but think is necessary anyway.

If some gays and lesbians appear frightened or angered by the attacks of the Republicans and the lack of support within their own party, let’s look for where we can build coalitions that will lead to success for the rights of all. So we can all use our time and energy to look at more “important” issues.

[Imagevision]

1. I agree, there's always the amendment needed to stop burning the ...flag??

or something...

[Bluebear]

2. Sorry, nonsense.

Specifically:

"Gays and lesbians insist on equal treatment for civil rights and marriages; they insist that it is really very simple. But it isn’t simple at all. The supposed “protection” of marriage between a man and a woman is a mechanism to preserve a male/female gender (im)balance that underlies every aspect of our culture, our society, our religions, our politics and our economy."

[omega minimo]

3. Maybe you need some time to think about it

"So no-- it’s not simple. But by barging ahead as if it is, by skipping that step, gays and lesbians are demanding their right to simply exist. Some may look at the bigger picture. Some may not. They just want the right to live whatever’s left of The American Dream like everybody else."

[Bluebear]

4. Skipping what 'step'? Could you elucidate?

[omega minimo]

5. Dear Bluebear, you just skipped that step by pronouncing it "Nonsense"!

"The supposed “protection” of marriage between a man and a woman is a mechanism to preserve a male/female gender (im)balance that underlies every aspect of our culture, our society, our religions, our politics and our economy."

[Bluebear]

6. OK sorry, ignore. This reasoning must be too sophisticated for me.

[omega minimo]

39. Gay marriage threatens the male dominant power structure

(that underlies society) enshrined in traditional male/female marriage. This is part of the resistance to it. Although it is never, AFAIK, discussed.

Women's rights and gay rights are related for that reason.

[spoony]

82. Marriage is about male dominance?

Well the married men I know are going to have a chuckle at that.

[benevolent dictator]

31. If someone's asking you

to explain something you said, probably the best way isn't repeating exactly what you already said word for word.

[omega minimo]

35. I pointed out the "step" so he wouldn't trip! He didn't even see it!

It's easy to overlook-- I repeated it because it was right there in plain sight -- "What step?" he asked as he sailed right past it.

It's easy to ignore because it involves women's power in this society, the gender power balance enshrined in traditional male/female marriage and the relevance of all that to the gay marriage issue.

I've never seen any such discussion, have you?

[Bluebear]

45. I saw the "step", it didn't make any sense to me. Still doesn't.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

48. You should just keep re-reading that step until it makes sense. Duh.

[omega minimo]

49. Did you read #39?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

9. Glad To See I'm Not The Only One Lost On These Concepts.

I read the OP, but it was a bit all over the place. At parts, it seemed almost contradictory. But in the end, I was kinda left with only the thought of "Huh?". I'm not really sure what the overall point or argument was supposed to be. I'm hoping others responses in the thread will help clarify it a bit more.

[JeffR]

7. I can't help but think the whole notion of marriage in general is absurd

and the pious conservatives who tout its supposed "sanctity" have no understanding of marriage's roots in simple economic expedience in an era even more egregiously male-dominated than our own.

Having said that, the reality of the current situation is that marriage ensures legal protections and rights completely unavailable to the gay and lesbian community. So their demand for those equal rights and protections is completely reasonable, and shouldn't be a topic of debate in a nominally civilized society.

How we reach a point where our society is really advanced enough to accept this, I don't know. But it would seem to be self-evident that the party that has held up the banner of civil rights for over forty years has to expand its vision and realize that this issue is one of civil rights, and stop nibbling around the edges of it and confront it head on.

And thank you for mentioning the ERA, something else the party's wonks and candidates apparently prefer to ignore. Again on this issue, a nominally civilized society would have embraced the principles of the ERA without question or qualm.

I don't know about putting issues on a sliding scale. I know I have issues that I personally think are paramount right now, but I doubt if some of those would be as urgent for other people as they are for me. The issues that are ultimately important on a party - read, communal - level should be reached by consensus among us all, and should not be dictated from the top down by the likes of Bob Shrum and MaryBeth Cahill.

[omega minimo]

17. marriage fell out of fashion for a while there

and came back with a Big Business vengeance with the White Wedding in the Reagan Greed-Is-Good Era.

"...the pious conservatives who tout its supposed "sanctity" have no understanding of marriage's roots in simple economic expedience in an era even more egregiously male-dominated than our own."

The connection I drew is that this era is still "egregiously male-dominated" and the male/female marriage structure supports that. So if gay rights advocates can sidestep that reality and push through with a "it's so simple" approach, more power to 'em. The OP asks how gay/lesbian rights effect women's rights and vice versa.

"Having said that, the reality of the current situation is that marriage ensures legal protections and rights completely unavailable to the gay and lesbian community. So their demand for those equal rights and protections is completely reasonable, and shouldn't be a topic of debate in a nominally civilized society. How we reach a point where our society is really advanced enough to accept this, I don't know."

It may be necessary in this "nominally civilized society" to fight for gender rights for gays, lesbians and women all together. Or in different steps.

"I don't know about putting issues on a sliding scale. I know I have issues that I personally think are paramount right now, but I doubt if some of those would be as urgent for other people as they are for me. The issues that are ultimately important on a party - read, communal - level should be reached by consensus among us all, and should not be dictated from the top down by the likes of Bob Shrum and MaryBeth Cahill."

My list was "no particular order" and IMHO. It would seem we have an automatic communal level where it concerns fundamental structures of our government like the Constitution, the Congress, elections and media. All else flows from there.

[JeffR]

25. Your linkage of gay, lesbian and women's rights is the way to fight it all

And the way to package what progressives need to bring to the Democratic Party platform. Which is why I thought your mention of the ERA resonated so much.

Didn't mean to imply that your setting forth a list of priorities was meant to be absolutist. Only that it might be taken as an opening for people to do so in a thread I believed was targeted at more overarching concerns.

Didn't say it before, but: well said. I've deliberately avoided reading other responses in this thread only because I'm afraid people might avail themselves of the opportunity for more divisiveness at a time when we need a semblance of unity more than ever. Nonetheless, there will remain a thousand issues to be debated and a thousand compromises to be reached, even after one branch of the government is wrested from the hands of the barbarians. Onward and upward.

[upi402]

8. You forgot the most important issue of the times that superceeds all;

Missing white babes!


c'mon!

[eppur_se_muova]

10. Quick -- legalize it and GET IT OVER WITH! Lots of time then to focus on other things!

How hard is that to understand?

[Karenina]

15. THAT was Clinton's reasoning

when, early in his term, he proposed to dispatch the silliness of making a big deal about gay people in the military and got blind-sided by Sam Nunn. Clinton thought the whole thing was just stupid. What he DIDN'T REALIZE was the EXTENT of the "RoyCohn Culture" which we now see manifested in all the "sex" scandals (which really have to do with dominance and power). Had he succeeded in waving the taboo away, it would have taken a complicated, entrenched hierarchy out; cut it off at the knees. TPTB COULD NOT STOMACH THAT. SOOOO ironic that a hetero, consenting adult bj created such a hullabaloo...

[eppur_se_muova]

71. Thanks for that reminder, of another sad might-have-been. nt

[mondo joe]

11. Some people just beg to be ignored.

[Jamastiene]

98. So true, my friend. So true. n/t

[Zen]

12. Don't forget the ailing Supreme Court Justice

Can you imagine if Bush has a favorable Senate when he goes to appoint a third Supreme Court Justice?

[Mr_Spock]

19. This may be the biggest issue we are facing with a Repuke Senate

We are definitely in big trouble if the idiot twit in chief is allowed to appoint another Supreme Court Justice

[LeftCoast]

13. More important than being allowed to visit your partner in the hospital?

More important than being allowed to make or even offer an opinion on your partner's medical care? More important than facing the possibility of losing your home on top of losing your partner?

These are just a very very few things that marriage gives. If you want to see it as an agent of oppresion, so be it, but nobody's forcing you to get married.

[omega minimo]

20. I understand. I said so.

"However, if one is gay or lesbian, the marriage issue might eclipse other larger issues, if it is seen as another sort of disenfranchisement and a threat to one’s (and one’s family’s) very existence."



"If you want to see it as an agent of oppresion, so be it, but nobody's forcing you to get married."

I never said this. The point is that the resistance to gay marriage in the U.S. is influenced by the male dominance supported by male/female marriage and a society built upon it. Maybe (maybe not, I don't know) gay rights will inevitably and necessarily be won in solidarity with women's rights.

[LostinVA]

28. No, you don't understand

If you did, you would never have written the OP.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

30. Exactly. nt

[omega minimo]

34. The OP is long. Lemme break it down for those who didn't read or

understand it.

omega minimo (1000+ posts)  Sat Oct-28-06 08:09 PM
Original message

There are more important issues than gay marriage
IMHO
<>
However, if one is gay or lesbian, the marriage issue might eclipse other larger issues, if it is seen as another sort of disenfranchisement and a threat to one’s (and one’s family’s) very existence.
<>
Where is the cooperation between gays and lesbians who righteously challenge the gender status quo and the women who challenge it from a different angle? Would a successful Equal Rights Amendment lead to more equality for homosexuals? Would civil rights for gays and lesbians lead to more equality for women?
<>
Some may look at the bigger picture. Some may not. They just want the right to live whatever’s left of The American Dream like everybody else.
<>
(call for reconciliation between us on the same side, blah blah blah)
<>
let’s look for where we can build coalitions that will lead to success for the rights of all. So we can all use our time and energy to look at more “important” issues.



Yes I do understand and that is why I wrote the OP. Those who didn't bother to read or get the conciliatory message are going to stay pissed off.

If you read my OP and thought it through, LostInVa you wouldn't find it necessary to make personal attacks as you did below. This is not a divisive post. It points out past, present-- and calls for future-- common ground. I notice also that your excellent OP currently up in GD took quite a bit of inspiration from this one.

I am not going to alert on your personal attack post below, in case you want to come back and look someday at how intentionally you hurt someone who is pointing out we are on the same side and is trying to help.

[Book Lover]

95. I'm not a lesbian and this issue is top of my list

The reason I wed my spouse was in order to solidify my (at the time) 12-year relationship to that person legally - the *exact* reason many of our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters want this legal status. I Working to change the law re: marriage does not mean I can't fight against this illegal war.

I suggest that if recognizing marriages between same-sex couples is not at the top of your political action item list, it is at the top of mine and many others. We as liberals do not have to have the same agenda; it seems to me you are suggesting that we do so, however. Am I misinterpreting your OP?

[omega minimo]

100. It is a call for common ground

<>
Where is the cooperation between gays and lesbians who righteously challenge the gender status quo and the women who challenge it from a different angle? Would a successful Equal Rights Amendment lead to more equality for homosexuals? Would civil rights for gays and lesbians lead to more equality for women?
<>
So when the Republicans-- in their desperation-- trot out the Gay&Lesbian Frankenstein for Halloween, let’s not get too scared by their smoke and mirrors.

If some Democrats respond with concern that gay rights could hurt the outcome of the November election, let’s question the manipulative and skanky tactics of the Republicans rather than dispute the claim of homosexuals to equal treatment under the law.

Let's question that compliant, complacent corporate media as it supports and broadcasts the hatemongers lies. Let's not buy into using "strategery" that we don't believe in but think is necessary anyway.

If some gays and lesbians appear frightened or angered by the attacks of the Republicans and the lack of support within their own party, let’s look for where we can build coalitions that will lead to success for the rights of all. So we can all use our time and energy to look at more “important” issues.



Thank you for asking

[benevolent dictator]

32. It's so easy to dismiss threats

to OTHER PEOPLE's (and their family's) existence, isn't it?

For the record, most of the lesbians I know are also heavily involved in the struggle for women's equality, trans equality, race equality and class equality. Lesbians are women too, after all.

[breakaleg]

14. There may be more important issues, but this one is pretty easy to fix

and if it gives a portion of the population the legal rights they deserve, then why not pass the law, get if over with and then move on to the next thing?

[IndianaGreen]

16. Hetero rights of association are also impacted by the attack on LGBTs

BTW, if you think that equality under the law is not important, then you are clueless as to what is really important.

The following press release makes clear that those opposed to marriage rights for gays are also targeting heteros in relationships outside of marriage.

For Immediate Release:
October 27, 2006

Republicans use “Marriage” Amendment in last-ditch campaign effort
GOP leadership relying on divisive wedge issue in attempt to turn election tide.

Indianapolis – Thursday morning saw Indiana Republican leaders latching on to the New Jersey Supreme Court decision extending equal protections to same-sex couples. While ignoring that four of the seven New Jersey justices were appointed by a Republican governor, the State’s current House majority seized on the issue as a desperately-needed election opportunity.

House Speaker Brian Bosma took the opportunity to claim, “Today is a very timely day” to address the issue of Indiana’s proposed constitutional amendment, referring to the New Jersey court decision. Bosma did not address Indiana’s 1997 Defense of Marriage Act defining marriage in Indiana as one man and one woman – a law never similarly passed in New Jersey.

“I guess no one should be surprised,” observed Walter Botich, President of Stop The Amendment. “It is election season and politicians with their feet to the fire feel the need to divert attention away from more serious issues facing Hoosiers.”

Bosma also expressed ignorance over problems with the wording of the proposed marriage amendment, disputing looming problems with inheritance rights, insurance, medical visitation rights and other benefits – claiming that other laws would not be impacted by the amendment. But leaders of lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender-rights organizations such as Indiana Equality President Kathy Sarris expressed puzzlement over Bosma’s limiting language.

“The Speaker continually refers to the amendment in terms of ‘same-sex’ couples,” Sarris stated, “but a simple reading shows that the phrase ‘same-sex’ never shows up. It’s the term ‘unmarried couples’ that the legislature chose to use. It’s pretty simple to point out that unmarried couples means anybody that’s not married – which in Indiana would mean mostly heterosexuals.”

Robb Minich, an Indianapolis civil rights and constitutional law attorney, responded to Bosma’s statements as “deliberately missing the point.” Minich stated, “As a politician, Speaker Bosma wants to pigeonhole the problems with the amendment as affecting only the gay community. As an attorney, he knows that the rushed passage of the wording was a mistake and affects everyone. We’ve watched growing problems in neighboring states such as Ohio and Michigan as they try to cope with unintended problems growing out of their own ‘marriage’ amendments. Ohio’s courts, for example, have been forced to strip away domestic violence protections from their unmarried heterosexual couples due to their own 2004 amendment – and I know that the Speaker is aware of this because we’ve given him the case law directly.”

In possible acknowledgment to growing public discontent with problems in the proposed amendment, Bosma this week added to his campaign speeches a warning that altering the amendment would increase the timetable for ultimate passage. Stop The Amendment President Botich responded, “Bosma’s ‘stick your head in the sand’ approach to pushing this measure through ‘as-is’ is ludicrous. Passing this amendment as it is written now is going to get Indiana into a world of hurt. In the crafting of law, words do matter.”

“This amendment hurts every Hoosier no matter their orientation or political leanings,” Minich declared. “Attorneys from various areas of law have researched the matter exhaustively. I have a stack of printed materials that’s two feet tall,” quipped Minich grimly, “and there are days that I daydream about lighting a match to it all hoping that all these problems disappear in a puff of smoke. Unfortunately I’m not a magician; and unless Bosma can conjure us out of the mess he’s trying to get Indiana into, he’d better work on fixing the wording of that amendment.”

Stop The Amendment, Inc. is a group of concerned Hoosiers dedicated to educating the citizens of the State of Indiana on how the proposed amendment threatens basic rights and legal protections of all Hoosiers, and to empower and motivate these citizens to take positive action against this discriminatory legislation. For more information on Stop The Amendment visit www.stoptheamendment.org .

--
Walter Botich
President

Stop The Amendment, Inc.
P.O. Box 441375
Indianapolis, IN 46244-1375

www.stoptheamendment.org

[omega minimo]

21. Let's get the wedge out

"BTW, if you think that equality under the law is not important, then you are clueless as to what is really important."

BTW, if you think I think that, you didn't read the OP!!

[Bluebear]

26. !

[mondo joe]

18. Are there more important issues than... abortion?

More important than racism?

More important than smoking in bars?

After enough time, you have to wonder if some here think there's anything less important than equal rights for gays.

[Warren DeMontague]

22. And even Frankenstein was allowed to get married!

[omega minimo]

23. "Aaaaaaahhhhrrrrr rrrraaaahhhhr rrrrrrrggggggggggaarr"

[Sapphocrat]

38. And don't forget Richard Ramirez!

And Susan Atkins...




And Tex Watson...




And both Lyle & Erik...



And...

On the bright side, at least I know where I stand on the pecking order in this country -- somewhere below serial killers, mass murderers, and mommy-and-daddy killers.

[donco6]

44. Those are even better examples than what I usually use.

Convicted, jailed mass murderers have marriage rights and upstanding gay citizens don't.

That's just f-ing pathetic.

[dsc]

77. frankenstein was unmarried

the bride pictured married frankenstein's monster, who is otherwise unnamed.

[Warren DeMontague]

81. Gee-zus. You and your pesky "facts".

Frankenstein has become cultural shorthand for the monster. Facts be damnned!

[savemefromdumbya]

24. I guess the voters think the economy is the more important?

[LostinVA]

27. Tell you what, let's replace "gay" with "women," and then we'll see

what you think about it. I'm betting you'd be banging a different drum, then... huh? If you answer I'm wrong, I know you're not being truthful.

What a bullshit post. WTF has happened to you, Omega? You used to write such wonderful Progressive posts on everyone's rights... but the last few months, you have been doing nothing of the sort, have been starting divisie threads, and plus, you've become quite insulting to posters.

[omega minimo]

53. Shocking

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

If you read my OP and thought it through, LostInVa you wouldn't find it necessary to make personal attacks. This is not a divisive post. It points out past, present-- and calls for future-- common ground. I notice also that your excellent OP currently up in GD took quite a bit of inspiration from this one.

I am not going to alert on your personal attack, in case you want to come back and look someday at how intentionally you hurt someone who is pointing out we are on the same side and is trying to help.

I've been shocked at how you've been treating people on this issue.

[FreeStateDemocrat]

29. War, national health care, education, poverty,energy, immigration, many more. nt

[Jed Dilligan]

33. Are there issues more important than my right

to my chosen living arrangement? Which is living with my heterosexual partner to whom I'm not married. That right is only forty-some years legal. Would you give that up for other parts of the Democratic agenda?

[omega minimo]

47. Politically?

"So when the Republicans-- in their desperation-- trot out the Gay&Lesbian Frankenstein for Halloween, let’s not get too scared by their smoke and mirrors.

"If some Democrats respond with concern that gay rights could hurt the outcome of the November election, let’s question the manipulative and skanky tactics of the Republicans rather than dispute the claim of homosexuals to equal treatment under the law. Let's question that compliant, complacent corporate media as it supports and broadcasts the hatemongers lies. Let's not buy into using "strategery" that we don't believe in but think is necessary anyway.

"If some gays and lesbians appear frightened or angered by the attacks of the Republicans and the lack of support within their own party, let’s look for where we can build coalitions that will lead to success for the rights of all. So we can all use our time and energy to look at more “important” issues."

[Jed Dilligan]

54. I think we could bring a lot of people to the polls

by getting truly serious about individual rights.

Until we do we will be fighting the repukes over a few soccer moms.

Remember, the nonvoters "win" every election. They'll win this one by a landslide.

[omega minimo]

56. Interesting. Are you saying you think some people may NOT vote

because of this issue? (or other "individual rights" issues?)

What sort of getting "truly serious about individual rights" will cause non-voters to vote?

[Jed Dilligan]

61. Well, I can relate my own experience

I didn't vote until 2000 because I thought Democrats wanted me in prison, just as much as Republicans did. Almost everyone I knew in my generation/peer group feels the same way. In California the Party is seen as a puppet of the prison guards' union. The rush to embrace "traditional values" and Nixon-style "law and order" politics made Dems seem like "the Man," someone opposed to youth and freedom in general.

Sexual rights of all kinds, drug law reform, and prison reform as serious commitments would drag a lot of people like me to the polls. I would count myself in, because once shrub and this congress are gone my continuing support of the Democratic party is far from guaranteed.

I don't expect much from my government, what I don't want is that banging on the door in the middle of the night. The squeak of boots on my floor, a bullet in my dog, some government thugs arms groping my girlfriend. This has been a reality of life in America for three decades now, and I'll be damned if I spend my whole life supporting the slightly lesser perpetrator.

[Lars39]

36. Some of the biggest supporters I've seen

of a ban for gay marriages are patriarchs and their submissive wives.
They are wanting to maintain the status quo for the men.
Sometimes the submissive wives are even more vehement in their arguments than the men.
Gotta have somebody to kick I guess.

[Hidden Stillness]

37. Number 1 Issue: Poverty and the Economy

Wonderful post, omega minimo. I support gay rights, civil unions, anti-discrimination legislation, hate crimes legislation, partners covered by insurance, etc., but I also consider "gay marriage" to be an incredibly trivial issue, when there is deathly poverty in this country, and you never read about it on DU from all the "internet revolutionaries going to the big meeting at the Hyatt-Regency this weekend." The Bankruptcy Bill, "Medicare" Part D, the threat to Socail Security, Medicaid, Section 8 Housing and unavailability of low-income housing, the cuts to food stamps, a permanently poverty-level mandated minimum wage--these are life-and-death threats.

[Sapphocrat]

40. Thanks.

Yep, it's "incredibly trivial" that I haven't seen my life partner in one year, two weeks, and one day because I don't have the right to marry her.

Not a "life-and-death threat," you say? As I watch my life ebb away day by day, hour by hour... and post by post.

Incredibly trivial, indeed.

[Hidden Stillness]

41. Try Being Poor

[Lars39]

43. A person can be gay *and* poor.

[Sapphocrat]

70. I _am_ poor.

Unemployed since December 27, 2000. No health insurance, either. I haven't seen a doctor or even a dentist in years. I'm a 45-year-old woman who's never had a mammogram, and worries about an inflamed thyroid. My last visit to the optometrist was more than three years ago, because my glasses just wouldn't work anymore -- so my 85-year-old mom, who's on a fixed income, paid for the eye exam and the new progressive lenses, which I'm wearing right now.

No car of my own, since I can't afford to have mine fixed. No savings, burned through two Roth IRAs in four months just to pay the bills, and owe over $13,000 (technically, to myself) from borrowing against my life insurance -- the only plan I have outside Social Security to see me into old age.

See my donor star? Somebody else paid for that, too.

Oh, I do own four shares of eBay stock. Which I could cash in for all of about a hundred bucks right now.

And before you ask how I get to Australia every so often, I'll tell you: Someone else pays for it. All of it.

Your turn.

[Jamastiene]

94. I'm poor AND gay. I think marriage equality is an important

issue. All equal rights issues are important. Otherwise, why bother with the rule of law at all? I pay my damn taxes too. Time to cough up some damn delivery on those promises of civil rights.

[omega minimo]

46. Thank you HS, although I wouldn't call it trivial..................

or trivialize the concerns of those for whom it is Life or Death or even just Everyday Life.

The comment in the OP may have been too calm or subtle (it's being missed by some)

"However, if one is gay or lesbian, the marriage issue might eclipse other larger issues, if it is seen as another sort of disenfranchisement and a threat to one’s (and one’s family’s) very existence."

Sometimes it is Life or Death as Sapphocrat is speaking to. Sometimes its just Daily Life and folks want the right to have it -- with legal rights afforded to marrieds.

We all have our own lives to lead and we have a Commons that has been disassembled and sold off while we were leading them.

All these issues are intertwined. Some of us are just focused on our dots without connecting them.

Divided We Fall.

[mondo joe]

75. Equal civil rights is now an INCREDIBLY TRIVIAL issue?

Thanks loads.

[Bluebear]

76. "I also consider "gay marriage" to be an incredibly trivial issue"

We appreciate your support there.

[Annces]

42. I don't think there is one "more important" issue

Spiritual health is wholistic, everything being inter-related. Plus some of us choose specific issues to give some real work to. You can't put work into "all issues".

[WhollyHeretic]

50. We're talking people's civil rights.

Plus some of us actually have enough brain power to work on several issues

[omega minimo]

52. Enuff to work on how women's rights affect gay rights & vice versa?

"Plus some of us actually have enough brain power to work on several issues"

[enigmatic]

51. I'm a straight guy

that stands with my Gay and Lesbian friends in fighting for the same rights that I as a straight person enjoys in society, and I don't give a damn if it's not "the right time" or isn't important enough for others in this election.

Civil rights and social upheaval moves in it's own time regardless of elections or anything else; to some, it's never "the right time" to pursue equal rights for those who don't have it. I'm not waiting for those come around; they either will or won't.

Building coalition between all genders, races, and sexual orientations to fight for (and ensure) civil rights for everyone is not something that should ever be put on the back burner, or be shooed away when it happens on it own volition though the courts or by social justice. It's a basic (and profound)right that everybody should have.

And you know what I want to see here more than anything else? Those who wish to pit different groups here against each other by claiming one groups struggle is "easier" or harder than their own struggle realize that we need EVERYBODY in this fight. And yes, that includes straight white guys, too.

I'm a humanist; I fight for the rights of human beings for equal rights under the law regardless of what gender, religion, sexual orientation, and race they are; I don't pick and choose. And I don't for everybody know in that struggle, then I don't fight for anybody, even if it's "the wrong time".

[WindRavenX]

55. yessah, Ah'll jus git back to tha back of da bus

Ah'll jus let them mo' 'portant folks work on their mo' portant issues...

[beam me up scottie]

57. Nope, sorry, you have to get off the bus.

Again.

And if you resist, we'll throw you under the wheels.

Again.

And if we lose, it will be your fault.

Again.

Maybe we'll let you ride it all the way next election.

[WindRavenX]

58. oh masah, you so kind!!!!!

How the fuck can people possibly rationalize that continued state of inequality for a portion of our own citizens ???

What the hell is DU smoking????

[Jamastiene]

97. I've been wondering what some have been drinking.

I think some people on here have been drinking the ool-Kay Aid-A, if ya know what I mean.

[omega minimo]

62. Hi Beam

from OP:

Comparisons are made to the civil rights movements of African Americans, who had to fight to abolish slavery, gain the right to vote and end segregation. Women too have had to fight for the right to vote and other equal rights under the law. The Equal Rights Amendment was passed by the Congress, but not enough states ratified it in time to make it law.

There was powerful cooperation between early “First Wave” feminists and the Abolitionists. What kind of coalition do we have now? Where is the cooperation between gays and lesbians who righteously challenge the gender status quo and the women who challenge it from a different angle?

Would a successful Equal Rights Amendment lead to more equality for homosexuals? Would civil rights for gays and lesbians lead to more equality for women?



Another question: Are Progressive issues IN GENERAL being "thrown under the bus" by whatever Democratic strategists that gays/lesbians feel are doing that to them in particular?

[beam me up scottie]

63. How would I know?

I was thrown off months ago.

[WindRavenX]

66. snap

[donco6]

86. Actually, we all have to PUSH the bus.

Next time, we might be allowed inside.

[omega minimo]

59. The American Dream is being disassembled while gay/lesbians want the right

to claim it.




We're all on the same bus. Don't forget to look out da winda.

[WindRavenX]

60. bullshit

My GLBT brothers and sisters desparately want to be part of the American Dream. You are part of the force that is denying them their dream by claiming they are political pawns to be used when it is convenient to the political parties.
Fuck that noise.
Shame on you.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

64. WindRaven, I know I've pointed out in the past, but I haven't done it today.

[WindRavenX]

65. right back atcha

I am NOT going to stand for this bullshit EVER.

People's hopes and dreams are not just political babble.

[omega minimo]

68. nonsense

That is a true statement. There is no judgement in that statement, although you must have projected some, or you would not be so hostile and dismissive, having decided I am now your generic punching bag for whatever hatred you have for your (true) enemies.

It is a true statement. There is irony in it, there is tragedy in it. Perhaps you missed the reply to you where I said we're on the same bus.

In fact, the vitriol you have now focused on me, a big firehose of misguided hatred, shows that you haven't read the OP or anything else I said here:

"You are part of the force that is denying them their dream by claiming they are political pawns to be used when it is convenient to the political parties."

No, I'm not. I haven't said anything of the sort. Take the mote out of your own eye.

"Fuck that noise. Shame on you."

Back atcha.

The only potentially judgemental thing I would say (and I haven't) about the blunt force, demanding, In Yer Face, You're With Us Or Against Us, Get On The Damn Bandwagon Or We're Throwing You Under The Wheels gay marriage campaign as evidenced here is that it is short-sighted. And you have just proven that point.

Now that a tag team has shown up to reduce this to a flamefest, I guess I'm done.

Thank you and good luck. To all of us.

[WindRavenX]

69. You ARE either FOR equality or you aren't-- there isn't an half-ass effort to it

Or "waiting" until "more important" issues are settled before moving onto the matter of equality.

You have suggested all of the above. You have suggested bowing out of the way for more important issues, waiting until the political environment is better-- all of which are incredibly painful to be told by people with PRIVILEGE that we do NOT have. It's condescending, it's hurtful, and it's damn clear you don't get it.

I hope one day you'll experience the pain of being told to wait for something when everyone else has the right but you.

because when you sprout crap like this "if it is seen as another sort of disenfranchisement and a threat to one’s (and one’s family’s) very existence" you reveal just how much you don't get this.

[omega minimo]

73. You are pissed off because you misunderstand what I said

Please read #34 if not the whole OP (with an open mind) for a better understanding of the OP meaning and reconsider your attitude toward me as well.

"You have suggested bowing out of the way for more important issues, waiting until the political environment is better--"

No. I didn't. If you read it with an open mind, instead of assuming that's what I'm saying because you've been duking this out with OTHERS who are saying this, you might get it.

"I hope one day you'll experience the pain of being told to wait for something when everyone else has the right but you."

How does attacking people with hateful curses help the cause you are for?

I'm sorry you don't understand, I'm sorry if I stated it too calmly or clearly but the (empathetic) fact is that gays and lesbians are saying that this is:

"...another sort of disenfranchisement and a threat to one’s (and one’s family’s) very existence."

If you insist that is "crap" it shows "it's damn clear YOU don't get it."

Try not hating the people who are on your side. Take a breath. Slow down. R-E-A-D.

[Bluebear]

74. I think you tried to write an artsy fartsy essay that backfired, frankly.

No offense, but everyone who has taken exception to your screed has been met with the instruction to just reread the thing, as if the Oracle will come down and all of a sudden we will see the light.

[libnnc]

78. I love you.

[Bluebear]

79. And I love you back.

[omega minimo]

83. Could be. On the other hand

if mad people are seeing red, it makes it harder for them to see clearly. "Artsy Fartsy" if you say so, but if you consider the OP a "screed" then I don't think you had an open mind when (and if) you read it. Bluebear, I don't apologize for being literate here because I try to be clear. I know I threw a lot of (new) ideas into the mix, but the "reasoning is not too sophisticated" to an open mind. And only people who are so mad they can't see straight are going to be offended by the statements:

*There are more important issues than gay marriage. IMHO. However, if one is gay or lesbian, the marriage issue might eclipse other larger issues, if it is seen as another sort of disenfranchisement and a threat to one’s (and one’s family’s) very existence.

*The American Dream is being disassembled while gay/lesbians want the right to claim it.

*Let’s look for where we can build coalitions that will lead to success for the rights of all. So we can all use our time and energy to look at more “important” issues.

The rabid responses to the first two clearly had their assumptions and anger ready to project on what was actually written. (the third was ignored, although it was the point of the whole OP)


The Cliff Notes Version of Artsy Fartsy Coalition Building Concept:

Original message

There are more important issues than gay marriage
IMHO
<>
However, if one is gay or lesbian, the marriage issue might eclipse other larger issues, if it is seen as another sort of disenfranchisement and a threat to one’s (and one’s family’s) very existence.
<>
Where is the cooperation between gays and lesbians who righteously challenge the gender status quo and the women who challenge it from a different angle? Would a successful Equal Rights Amendment lead to more equality for homosexuals? Would civil rights for gays and lesbians lead to more equality for women?
<>
Some may look at the bigger picture. Some may not. They just want the right to live whatever’s left of The American Dream like everybody else.
<>
(call for reconciliation between us on the same side, blah blah blah)
<>
let’s look for where we can build coalitions that will lead to success for the rights of all. So we can all use our time and energy to look at more “important” issues.

[Bluebear]

85. Screed in this instance means long essay, nothing more. I'm literate too.

[madfloridian]

89. Time for you to read Skinner's post on the subject.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

He didn't mention women, but the same ones who want to subjugate the gay community also want to do it to the women of the country regarding birth control and abortion....medical choices that are none of their business.

I am appalled.

[omega minimo]

92. Good Post

from Skinner:
"If DU had existed back during the civil rights movement, I hope that we would all agree that this was not the place to discuss whether blacks deserve civil rights."

from this OP:
"If some Democrats respond with concern that gay rights could hurt the outcome of the November election, let’s question the manipulative and skanky tactics of the Republicans rather than dispute the claim of homosexuals to equal treatment under the law."

THAT's what I'm "doing."

And this:

"Let's question that compliant, complacent corporate media as it supports and broadcasts the hatemongers lies.
Let's not buy into using "strategery" that we don't believe in but think is necessary anyway.
If some gays and lesbians appear frightened or angered by the attacks of the Republicans and the lack of support within their own party, let’s look for where we can build coalitions that will lead to success for the rights of all.
So we can all use our time and energy to look at more “important” issues."


Thank you.

[madfloridian]

93. This.

"Keep the following guidelines in mind:

1. We expect all of our members to support equal rights for all people, regardless of sexual orientation. That includes the right to marry.

2. If you want to discuss this issue, you need to do so in a manner that is sensitive to the values of this diverse community. Be as clear and as non-inflammatory as possible in everything you say.

3. If you are opposed to gay rights, you are a homophobe. Don't share that particular point of view here or else you're going to get banned. You've been warned."

I have noticed a rash of candidates in Southern states lately being especially outspoken about gay rights and women's rights. I find this very wrong.

I took up for some of our politicisns before but I won't anymore.

[Jamastiene]

96. Oh, cry me a damn river.

'Phobes feeling sorry for themselves give me no pause whatsoever. You feel nothing for my kind. I feel nothing for yours. You get what you give.

[omega minimo]

99. The tears are fo all who suffer the consequences, including

gays and lesbians who want to reach for that dream.

Your hatred is misplaced and the venom begs the question of who are the real "phobes" here.

Others objected to the statement -- they must assume that the sentence blames the loss of the American Dream ON gays, which is absurd. I have already stated here that there is NO BLAME in the statement, although there is irony and tragedy.

Don't apologize. Please just consider reading next time with an open mind. Less "phobic."

[Fleshdancer]

67. United we stand or divided we fall

I can not in good conscience sideline any battle for equality. Yes there are hundreds of important issues to consider but there are always hundreds of important issues to consider. There were hundreds of issues to deal with when also fighting against slavery or giving women the right to vote. There was always the fear that supporting the equality battles in the past would amount to political suicide.

From my selfish perspective, thank goodness there were people around to not sideline the fight for women's rights. I owe so much to the Americans who put their political lives on the line in the short term so that my daughter and I (and my future great great great great granddaughters for that matter) can be a full participating member of society. The responsibility to continue this American spirit of progression is now in my hands and the decisions that I make today will benefit future generations. That alone makes it just as important (if not more) than any other issue we can list.

[omega minimo]

72. This is not a call to sideline any battle for equality.

You are touching on the questions raised in the OP about the interdependence of civil rights issues. You are eloquently preaching to the converted.

"The responsibility to continue this American spirit of progression is now in my hands and the decisions that I make today will benefit future generations."

The OP suggest there are other Unity aspects to this "spirit of progression" that it may be worth looking at.

FWIW

[pinto]

80. "Wedge issues" are just that. Pieces of a bigger picture.

I recall a recent spate of discussions in health care about the amount of funding going to AIDS research and treatment *at the expense* of funding for other fatal diseases. It was highly divisive and emotional, as you can imagine. After a while, though, the cross benefits of basic viral disease research, accessibility to medications, the approval process and trials standards for new medications, delivery of health care to disenfranchised populations and the whole structure of the patient/health care relationship blurred that divide.

It was a straw man to begin with, imo.

I've come to the point that I value the edges in such discussions, the apparent divisions, but look to the long term recognition that we're all talking about the whole picture, not the disparate pieces.

Thanks.

[omega minimo]

84. Thanks pinto. Wise words.

" "Wedge issues" are just that. Pieces of a bigger picture."

And look how many wedge issues involve, sex/uality. They're all interrelated. I honestly think we can connect the dots. Sooner rather than later.

"I've come to the point that I value the edges in such discussions, the apparent divisions, but look to the long term recognition that we're all talking about the whole picture, not the disparate pieces."

[madfloridian]

87. Ok, well then.....so what if we win big...

and then not support those rights. The rights of gays are usually opposed by the same people who oppose the rights of women to choose to have an abortion or choose take contraceptive pills or other forms of birth control.

So we win, then what? We have "used" these two groups of people...we have climbed over their backs to win.

I am appalled at this post.

[omega minimo]

88. What's most appalling?

The suggestion that the issues are connected?
Bringing up women's rights in the same breath and gay/lesbian rights?
The call for coalition building?
The concept that someone can have a different view of the Big Picture and also have compassion and concern for the rights of gays and lesbians?
The suggestions for how we on DU (and in the Democratic party) can communicate better?

[madfloridian]

90. What you are doing is appalling.

And when our politicians do it, it is appalling.

[omega minimo]

91. I am not doing whatever it is you think I am doing

And since you were not anymore specific about what is so "appalling" shall I assume you didn't read the OP either?

[NMMNG]

101. Yep

There are other important issues in the world today, and your rights are such a hot-button issue, so you gays get under the bus because we can't deal with you right now.


How many more times are we going to hear this tripe over the next 50 years?