Gunning down Gaeta: How Dems might execute those who helped

[IdesOfOctober]

http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/

Those who watched last night's episode most likely picked up on at least two themes that mirror our own time and space:

1. The civil war in Iraq, pitting Saddam loyalists against those who were repressed under that regime.

2. The potential for tit-for-tat retaliation and retribution against anyone even suspected of aiding BushCo.

But did you pick up on the third theme - The Gaida Meme?

3. There are those who quietly fed information from inside BushCo. to Waxman, Conyers, Kerry, Clinton, and others.

One such person was practically shouted down on here in a mobbish rage, when he suggested GOP/Dem bridge building after November: http://journals.democraticunderground.com/CorpGovActivist/1

At the last possible minute, Gaida's true role during the Cylon occupation came to light - but only after he'd been found "guilty until proven innocent" by a body akin to the Inquisition.

Last night's episode made me very fearful for people like David, should the Lord of the Flies faction of the DNC win out.

Ides

[Marr]

1. There was a fourth that I noticed.

The President (and former terrorist) Tom Zerek, argued that the President must be able to have people executed without a trial of their peers. That show makes alot of very clever political commentary.

[IdesOfOctober]

2. The question becomes...

... is there a Laura Roslin within the DNC wise enough to restrain the baser impulses?

Ides

[Occulus]

3. Pelosi? n/t

[IdesOfOctober]

4. Interesting thought...

... I wonder if she watches the show, and if so, if she identifies with Laura Roslin?

Ides

[nadinbrzezinski]

51. Glad I was not the only one who noticed that one

now here are the themes they covered

Collaborators, and what to do after a conflict, they reached wide and far, including France, circa 1945

And also a truth and reconciliation commission, which in fact may and will be needed in the USofA if we are to avoid the baser instincts.

Oh and Gaeta's role, came straight from the work some did during the Nazi regime inside the machine, as well as the oodles of whistle blowers that have come out in recent times.

[IdesOfOctober]

69. Good points, all...

... and just to be clear, I wasn't trying to be exhaustive in my OP. Rather, I was trying to point out a meme that some may not have projected into the future - the what if scenario of what the Dems could do with regained, restored power.

"Oh and Gaeta's role, came straight from the work some did during the Nazi regime inside the machine, as well as the oodles of whistle blowers that have come out in recent times."

That's what I was driving at, and Oskar Schindler is a good example of that.

Ides

[yurbud]

63. I noticed that, but missed the irony of the former 'terrorist'

being the one who thought of it.

That would also be a nod to half of the prime ministers of Israel.

[yurbud]

5. I think there's a difference between republicans who leaked and protested

from within, and Democrats who were so eager to help from without.

Also, the problem with the GOP is not unpleasant people but an ideology that benefits a very few at the expense of the rest of us. I don't think any ideas should be barred from public debate, but Democrats have been restrained about their opponents to the point of being dishonest.

[IdesOfOctober]

6. This will be a watershed...

... election, I think. I think this one goes down in the history books as one of those seismic shift elections.

[IdesOfOctober]

7. Ellen Tigh is a metaphor for...

... Daschle Dems.

Felix Gaeta is a metaphor for patriotic Republicans who helped from within.

Ides

[yurbud]

10. of course even Daschle was a bitter better than he appeared.

He begged the GOP to put off Iraq War vote until AFTER the 2002 election so it would be a relatively non-partisan vote. They wouldn't do it.

[CorpGovActivist]

11. Begged Being the Operative Word...

... Daschle was unfit to sit in that august body.

- Dave

[yurbud]

12. of course Ellen thought she was doing good in some sense

Dem collaborators know it's just about the money.

[CorpGovActivist]

13. Ellen Put Her Special Interests...

... ahead of humankind's interest.

Just like the Daschle Dems did.

- Dave

[Name removed]

61. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

68. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[johnfunk]

113. I'm about 90% sure Ellen was (is) a Cylon

Let's see what shakes out as the season goes on...

[IdesOfOctober]

114. Now there's a twist...

... I think the "who is; who isn't" aspect of the human lookalikes has many possible meanings today.

Ides

[meldroc]

120. Nah, she was too incompetent to be a cylon

I'd say that the biggest suspects would be:

Roslyn's aide (forgot her name, she replaced Billy after he got killed.)
I doubt it, but it's possible that Felix Gaeta's a sleeper agent, though the outed Cylons would have had to keep their cards very, very close to their chests on New Caprica because he was around them all the time.
Dualla (Dee) might also be a Cylon.

[CorpGovActivist]

8. The Yellow Dog Bowl...

"Last night's episode made me very fearful for people like David, should the Lord of the Flies faction of the DNC win out."

I trust the folks on Capitol Hill. They've been nothing but honest in their dealings with me.

- Dave

P.S. I have my "yellow dog bowl" to prove what I did: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2498181&mesg_id=2499076

[IdesOfOctober]

9. Art imitates life...

... in the strangest ways sometimes.

Ides

[Beetwasher]

14. You Are Reading WAAY To Much Into It, They Were Not Subtle About What They Were Talking About

And it seems you completely missed it. That episode was 100% about the Military Commisions Act and the violation of Habeus Corpus. It's all about the secret trials and imprisonment w/out charges of anyone deemed a suspect that Bush and Repubs just made law. The show is mixing and matching it's symbols a bit, but the show had nothing at all to w/ the Dems or Repub insiders or Saddam loyalists, it's a total slam against the criminality of Bushco and their violation of the bill of rights, except the "roles" of who represents Bushco. in the series is not always consistent, but the message is totally aimed at them. During the occupation of New Caprica, Bushco. was the Cylons and the insurgents were the Iraqi's. Afterwards, Zerrick played the role of Bushco. in issuing a secret order that legitimized secret trials of suspects w/out representation. This was totally and directly a comment about the Military Commisions act, not some warning about retribution against Repub insiders. It's amazing to me that some people would miss that. Since it's a TV show, they don't necessarily have to be consistent in who is representing what role regarding their comment about current events in the real world, they just do whatever works to make their point.

[IdesOfOctober]

15. Nope...you missed some of the message

They packed a lot into one hour.

Ides

[Beetwasher]

16. No, You Missed THE Message

It was all about the military commission act, 100%. It had nothing at all to do w/ Democrats or Saddam Loyalists. You are really reaching.

[IdesOfOctober]

17. Part of it, not 100%

It's not a binary choice, and I think you're selling the writers of BG short.

Ides

[Beetwasher]

18. No, I'm Not

They were not subtle about it. Now, you can take the story as some sort of moral lesson that some should be aware of, because it is one, but it's not a comment on what Dems MIGHT do at some point in the future. It's about what Bushco. has done and is doing right now.

[IdesOfOctober]

19. Who does Gaeta represent then, in your interpretation?

That's half the fun of going to museums with other people. Not everyone interprets the artwork the same way.

Ides

[Beetwasher]

20. He Doesn't HAVE To Represent Anyone

Not every single character in the show or every single thing that happens HAS to have a real life counterpart. Remember, it IS a TV show, w/ characters and plots of it's own that it is driving forward and developing, that have nothing to do w/ current events. It just so happens to ALSO weave meta-themes w/ real life commentary into it's plot sometimes (more often as of late). That's why they can shift their symbols around; i.e. Cylons represent Bushco. and then Zerrick did. It's the ACTIONS and EVENTS and the commentary on those actions and events that are most important, not necessarily which character at the time is performing or involved in the particular given action or event that is being commented upon.

[CorpGovActivist]

22. So Your Argument Is...

... that he was just "there," devoid of intended meaning on the writers' part?

- Dave

[Beetwasher]

23. No, My Argument Is It's The Action/Event That Is Being Commented On

And the specific characters involved are secondary and need not have specific real life counterparts. That's why the Cylons can represent Bushco. and the writers use their actions to make comments about current events (invasion of Iraq), and then Zerrick can represent Bushco. and the writers use HIM to make comments about current events (Military Commisions Act) and actions by Bushco.

Obviously his character has meaning and relevance in the show.

[CorpGovActivist]

24. So the Different Airlock Scenes...

... were just filling time?

- Dave

[Beetwasher]

25. Huh?

What does that have to do w/ anything? It's a TV show, there's a plot and things happening that are specific and meaningful from the perspective of the show itself and then there's larger, meta-messages and commentary that show is making about society and current events. Not everything in the show is about something outside the show, some of it is just the TV show, action, driving the plot of the series and developing characters.

[CorpGovActivist]

29. It Has Everything to Do...

... with teaching the intended lesson.

Airlock Scene #1: The zeal was still fresh. Even though the guy had exculpatory evidence weighing in favor of some form of leniency (letting the Chief's wife go before the planned massacre), they tossed him - and his potential future contributions to the Fleet - right out into the cold of space.

Airlock Scene #2: Gaeta. By now, the "Circle" has fractured, and they've had to bring in fresh new hatred to refuel the flames (Kara). Her bloodlust, like Tigh's, is so red hot that it blinds her to the introduction of new facts.

"It's a TV show, there's a plot and things happening that are specific and meaningful from the perspective of the show itself and then there's larger, meta-messages and commentary that show is making about society and current events. Not everything in the show is about something outside the show, some of it is just the TV show, action, driving the plot of the series and developing characters."

I bet the writers would be delighted to know that the audience drew different, but overlapping, lessons from the storyline.

- Dave

[Beetwasher]

32. Sure, Everyone Will Read Into It What They Will

But the meta-point was against secret trials w/out representation and it was unambiguous. And just who these days just imprisoning people without charges or access to lawyers and can now try them secretly? Just as the meta-point about invasion, occupation and resistance was unambiguous, and who these days is invading and occupying and repressing people?

[CorpGovActivist]

35. Maybe This Will Help...

... us to construct a common vocabulary.

1. What do you equate the restoration of the legitimate human government (Zarek) to?

2. What do you equate the subsequent restoration of Laura Roslin to?

- Dave

[Beetwasher]

41. Umm, The Plot Of The Show

There is one you know and it's not all based on real life events. You know, it's actually mostly based on a 70's TV show. :eyes:

[IdesOfOctober]

26. "Zarek" sounds like "zealot"...

... to me.

"the specific characters involved are secondary and need not have specific real life counterparts."

Need not, but could - and, if you ask the writers of Battlestar, probably do.

"That's why the Cylons can represent Bushco. and the writers use their actions to make comments about current events (invasion of Iraq),"

... with you so far.

"and then Zerrick can represent Bushco. and the writers use HIM to make comments about current events (Military Commisions Act)"

... but Gaeta doesn't represent anything or anybody in particular?

"Obviously his character has meaning and relevance in the show."

His = Zarek's character, but not Gaeta's?

I think you're also forgetting some important history from last season.

There was an ***election***, in which humankind voted for the "settle on New Caprica" candidate.

Baltar makes a fine Tom Daschle.

Ides

[Beetwasher]

34. Funny How You Read All The Points As Being Against Dems

When it is all so obviously slams against Bushco.

The meta-point was against secret trials w/out representation and it was unambiguous. And just who these days just imprisoning people without charges or access to lawyers and can now try them secretly? Just as the meta-point about invasion, occupation and resistance was unambiguous, and who these days is invading and occupying and repressing people?

If you don't get it, it's because you don't want to. For some reason you see this as slams and warnings agaisnt Dems. That's very interesting and you may be one of the very, very few who sees it that way, or tries to twist it that way. :eyes:

--snip--

"and then Zerrick can represent Bushco. and the writers use HIM to make comments about current events (Military Commisions Act)"

... but Gaeta doesn't represent anything or anybody in particular?

"Obviously his character has meaning and relevance in the show."

His = Zarek's character, but not Gaeta's?

--snip--

*sigh* His character AND Gaeta have meaning and relevance TO THE SHOW and the DRIVING of it's plot, NOT necessarily as symbols that consistently represent REAL PEOPLE in the REAL world. The show works on at least two levels; 1. as a tv show w/ it's own plot and characters etc. and 2. as making commentary about current events in the real world. In it's role as #2, the characters need not be consistent in their symboloc roles, and as a matter of fact, aren't consistent, that's why in their comment about Iraq, the Cyolons were Bushco., but in their commentary about secret trials, Zerrick was Bushco.

It is very unambiguous in this regard and you may be one of the very few who either don't get it, or try very hard to twist it as being against the Dems.

[CorpGovActivist]

36. Funny How You Miss the Cautionary Messages...

... that are there for Dems.

- Dave

[Beetwasher]

38. LOL! Einstein, YOU Miss The Biggest Cautionary Message

Invasion and occupations are BAD and so are secret trials. Who's doing that these days? Dems? :rofl:

Pretty unambiguous, but you continue w/ your pathetic mental gymnastics that you are trying to perform to make it about the Dems.

[IdesOfOctober]

44. Just to be clear...

... you don't think that there is any lesson at all for overzealous Democrats to draw from last night's episode?

That's what this boils down to: you take the view that there is only one interpretation, and that last night was concerned solely with the Military Commissions issue (which, undeniably, was one of the central memes). Others take the view that there is also a yellow light for those Dems who would like to - and indeed have issued calls to - engage in destructive scorched earth policies, should the Democratic Party regain one or both houses.

If you steadfastly stick to the viewpoint that last night's episode cannot, under any circumstances, possibly hold a cautionary lesson for Dems on the brink of a "restored" government, that's your right.

But why the need to enforce your worldview on others, and tell them that their interpretations are wrong, and that your interpretation is 100% right?

[Beetwasher]

49. (which, undeniably, was one of the central memes).

Good, I'm glad you got it since it didn't seem like you understood that at ALL from your OP since there was not a single sentence about the "undeniable central meme" and ONLY commentary about how the show was somehow about Dems. To me it seemed you went out of your way to miss the "central meme" and instead make it about Dems.

"If you steadfastly stick to the viewpoint that last night's episode cannot, under any circumstances, possibly hold a cautionary lesson for Dems on the brink of a "restored" government, that's your right."

That's not my veiwpoint. That's why I wrote the following:

"Now, you can take the story as some sort of moral lesson that some should be aware of, because it is one,..."

Yes, it's a moral lesson for EVERYONE, that includes Dems. But since they haven't done anything like this yet, I think it's a stretch to say that the writers meant it as something aimed directly at the Dems. If you think so, fine, but I doubt it. What I AM certain of is the undeniable and unambiguous central theme that IS directed squarely at the actions of Bushco. and their secret prisons and secret trials and invasion, occupation and represseion

[IdesOfOctober]

52. OP: "at least two" ...

... read more carefully.

Ides

[Beetwasher]

54. And You Listed 3

And failed to mention the central theme and pushed interpretations (stretched one's at that) that slammed Dems.

And now all you do is slam Tom Daschle and fail to comment on exactly who is RIGHT NOW imprisoning and trying people secretly, which is what the show was about. Is Daschle doing that RIGHT NOW? Who IS doing that right now? Why won't you answer? Interesting, that.

[Name removed]

56. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[IdesOfOctober]

58. Daschle Dems, 2006...

"And now all you do is slam Tom Daschle and fail to comment on exactly who is RIGHT NOW imprisoning and trying people secretly, which is what the show was about. Is Daschle doing that RIGHT NOW? Who IS doing that right now? Why won't you answer? Interesting, that."

Since you asked:

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=109&session=2&vote=00259

Where was the filibuster?

Ides

[Beetwasher]

64. Here's An Article You Might Identify With

http://www.prospect.org/web/page.ww?section=root&name=ViewWeb&articleId=12172

:rofl:

How's that denial working out for you?

[IdesOfOctober]

66. More reliably than the Daschle Dems...

... during the cloture motion on authorizing force in Iraq:

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=107&session=2&vote=00230

95 to 1, with 4 not voting.

How are those facts working out for ya?

Ides

[Beetwasher]

71. Jonah, Is That You?

http://www.prospect.org/web/page.ww?section=root&name=ViewWeb&articleId=12172

"Fellow Corner writer John Podheretz shared Goldberg’s assessment, and chided conservative fans of the show who were still in denial about its sudden leftward drift. “Message to BSG fans on the Right,” wrote Podheretz sternly. “You cannot … come up with some cockamamie explanation whereby it’s not about how we Americans are the Cylons and the humans are the ‘insurgents’ fighting an ‘imperialist’ power.” "

:rofl:

[IdesOfOctober]

78. From where I sit...

... it is consistent with progressive thinking to question the votes of those who sided with Bush on military commissions and using force in Iraq.

From where I sit, your knee-jerk defense of the likes of Daschle is not a solution, or even the beginnings of one.

Notably, you keep dodging the Senate votes I cite. They're not made up. They're taken straight from the public record, and provide a neutral beginning point. When you're ready to have an adult discussion - based on how it is that we're in Iraq, and how it is that we now have "legal" military commissions, just let me know.

Ides

[Name removed]

81. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[IdesOfOctober]

84. Military commissions were THE POINT of last night's show...

... according to you.

So, let's examine the vote authorizing the creation of your brand new democratic institution: http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=109&session=2&vote=00259

Lots of those same Dems rolled over and played dead on the Iraq vote under Daschle, too: http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=107&session=2&vote=00237

You take me to task for having the honesty to say that there are Democratic Senators who share the blame for creating these commissions, and you take me to task for having the honesty to say that many of those are the same subset of Democratic Senators who voted to authorize sending troops to Iraq.

You concur that BG is a metaphor for the Iraq occupation (occupied New Caprica) and for the creation of military commissions (The Circle).

I am willing to examine the votes that got us into Iraq, and into the military commissions business.

Are you?

Ides

[Beetwasher]

85. No, I Take You To Task For Trying To Twist The Theme Of The Show

As somehow being a slam against Dems and being in complete denial about who the target is.

"You concur that BG is a metaphor for the Iraq occupation (occupied New Caprica) and for the creation of military commissions (The Circle).

I am willing to examine the votes that got us into Iraq, and into the military commissions business."

No, you are merely trying to slam Dems and somehow twist the theme of the show as to be somehow against the Dems.

The title from your OP:

"Gunning down Gaeta: How Dems might execute those who helped"

The show had nothing to do w/ Dems voting for the Iraq war or the MCA and neither did your OP. Nothing. It is Bushco. who invaded and Bushco. who is ultimately responsible for the MCA since his admin. wrote and pushed it and Repubs control Congress and passed it. Period. And it is pathetic that you are somehow trying to make this about the Dems and trying to slam Dems and only Dems and it's pathetic even more so because you're OP had nothing to do w/ the MCA or the invasion of Iraq, but was bout how the show was somehow, ridiculously, actually about the Dems and Saddam loyalists. It's absurd, pathetic and ridiculous and practically no one agrees w/ you, not even Conservative fans of the show.

http://www.prospect.org/web/page.ww?section=root&name=ViewWeb&articleId=12172

"But alas, this love affair between Galactica and the right was not to last: in its third season, the show has morphed into a stinging allegorical critique of America’s three-year occupation of Iraq. The trouble started at the end of the second season, when humanity briefly escaped the Cylons and settled down on the tiny planet of New Caprica. The Cylons soon returned and quickly conquered the defenseless humans. But instead of slaughtering everyone, the Cylons decided to take a more enlightened path by “benevolently occupying” the planet and imposing their preferred way of life by gunpoint. The humans were predictably not enthused about their allegedly altruistic rulers, and they immediately launched an insurgency against them using improvised explosive devices and suicide bombers. Needless to say, this did not go over very well in the Galacticon camp. "

You sound like one of those pathetic, lost souls in the Galacticon camp, desperately trying to rationalize how they can still watch the show without being reminded of how their ideology is a total and abject failure.

[IdesOfOctober]

92. Wow...

... are you sure you know how to operate the voting machine you'll be using next week?

"No, I Take You To Task For Trying To Twist The Theme Of The Show As somehow being a slam against Dems and being in complete denial about who the target is."

You really, honestly can't see that it wasn't just the Bush Administration that the BG writers were criticizing last season and this? You really, honestly can't see that the writers were also issuing a warning about the potential overzealous excesses that could accompany a "restored" government?

"No, you are merely trying to slam Dems and somehow twist the theme of the show as to be somehow against the Dems."

You were the one who jumped all over me, saying that THE point of last night's show was military commissions. But there would be no military commissions today - October 28, 2006 - absent this vote one month ago: http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=109&session=2&vote=00259

I am not trying to "twist" anything. If the point of last night's show was that military commissions are wrong, and contrary to our values, then that begs the question: what should the Senate Dems have done last month, when the bill came up for a vote? That's not "slamming" Dems. Next week, we go to the polls. Elections are about holding our public officials to account for their votes. This was a critical vote. It called into existence the commissions that Bush is now using. No vote, no commissions.

"The show had nothing to do w/ Dems voting for the Iraq war"

Last season, the voters in the Fleet voted to abandon their quest to find Earth, and to "settle" for New Caprica.

Some might argue that that vote symbolized one or more of the votes that the Congress has taken to abandon our quest to be a more perfect Union.

"or the MCA"

Actually, Zarek didn't act alone. There were 6 people willing to carry out his vision. Maybe the writers of the show meant the 6 members of The Circle to represent those who went along with Zarek's vision? http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=109&session=2&vote=00259

"and neither did your OP."

My OP was meant to call attention to the role Gaeta might have meant to play in the writers' framework. My OP also - by its terms - acknowledged that there were other memes. If you wanted to create a "Captain Obvious" thread that said, "I think that they were commenting on military commissions," you should have played Captain Obvious, and started that thread.

When you develop the telekinetic powers necessary to animate my fingertips to express your thoughts, then my fingers will obey. But not until.

"It is Bushco. who invaded and Bushco. who is ultimately responsible for the MCA since his admin. wrote and pushed it and Repubs control Congress and passed it. Period."

OK. We get it. In your opinion, the Democrats in control of the Senate in October 2002 share 0% of the blame for us being in Iraq. In your opinion, the Democrats who held a cloture-proof minority in the Senate in September 2006 are absolved of all responsibility for allowing the military commissions to be created.

Thank you for expressing this viewpoint. It's useful for thinking progressives to see the challenge that lies ahead.

"And it is pathetic that you are somehow trying to make this about the Dems and trying to slam Dems and only Dems and it's pathetic"

Why are you so violently opposed to looking at the actual votes of the actual Democratic officeholders? Do you think historians won't look at those votes, and say, "Oh, but wait. The Democrats controlled the Senate in 2002. And wait. Look: they had a cloture-proof minority in September 2006. In both cases, enough Dems crossed over and collaborated to hand the Administration the victory."?

"and it's pathetic even more so because you're OP had nothing to do w/ the MCA or the invasion of Iraq,"

Want to be Captain Obvious? Be my guest. But my OP sought to make the point that - should the "restored" government come into existence on November 8th (as I hope it does) - there were lessons from last night's episode for the newly-empowered Dems to draw.

"but was bout how the show was somehow, ridiculously, actually about the Dems and Saddam loyalists. It's absurd, pathetic and ridiculous and practically no one agrees w/ you, not even Conservative fans of the show."

If spouting adjectives and invective constituted an argument, that might be one. It doesn't, and isn't.

"You sound like one of those pathetic, lost souls in the Galacticon camp, desperately trying to rationalize how they can still watch the show without being reminded of how their ideology is a total and abject failure."

Actually, I'm beginning to realize that I'm probably appreciating the show on more levels than you.

I appreciate it for its critique of the Bush Administration.

But I also appreciate it for its examination of the motives, decision-making processes, and impulses of different characters.

And I also am able to see that the writers may well have been issuing a warning to the "restored" government we may get on November 8th: don't Zarek things up even further. The Fleet - er, country - has already been through enough.

Ides

[Beetwasher]

93. the writers were also issuing a warning about the potential overzealous excesses that could accompan

"..the writers were also issuing a warning about the potential overzealous excesses that could accompany a "restored" government?"

:rofl:

If that's what get's you through the night. Wow the mental gymnastics some will go through to deal w/ the cognitive dissonance of their abjectly failed ideology being thrust in their face.

[IdesOfOctober]

97. Said the poster who won't face up to the actual Senate votes...

"Wow the mental gymnastics some will go through to deal w/ the cognitive dissonance of their abjectly failed ideology being thrust in their face."

Daschle Dawdling worked as an ideology for us, right?

When can we expect to hear your apologist explanation for the Democratic votes that authorized the military commissions you so hate?

Ides

[Beetwasher]

98. You're Dem Trashing Is Transparent

and noted and pathetic.

"Daschle Dawdling worked as an ideology for us, right?"

:rofl: Umm, you realize Daschle is no longer in the Senate, right Einstein? Yes, I know you'd rather discuss anything BUT how your OP was idiotic on it's face, but hey, that's your problem.

Your idiotic OP just for the record, that had nothing to do w/ Daschle:


"Gunning down Gaeta: How Dems might execute those who helped"

[IdesOfOctober]

100. Since you don't understand...

... the rudiments of discussion or debate, let's stick with the vote to authorize the military commissions you're so fond of:

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=109&session=2&vote=00259

All the Democrats on that list are still sitting Senators.

Please treat this post as a new thread, as its own OP.

Now, do you agree or disagree that the Dems had the numbers necessary to postpone this vote until after next Tuesday?

If you dodge this one, I'm done with you.

Ides

[Beetwasher]

103. I Understand Quite Well That You'd Like To Change The Subject To

Anything BUT how your OP was and idiotic and ridiculous attempt to twist the theme of the show into some bizarre bash of Dems so that you don't have to deal w/ the reality that the show was bashing Bush and the Repubs abjectly failed ideology.

"Fellow Corner writer John Podheretz shared Goldberg’s assessment, and chided conservative fans of the show who were still in denial about its sudden leftward drift. “Message to BSG fans on the Right,” wrote Podheretz sternly. “You cannot … come up with some cockamamie explanation whereby it’s not about how we Americans are the Cylons and the humans are the ‘insurgents’ fighting an ‘imperialist’ power.” "

http://www.prospect.org/web/page.ww?section=root&name=ViewWeb&articleId=12172

You can't deal with the above because all you have is some "cockamamie explanation" about how the show is bashing Dems. If you want to start another OP on a different topic, fine, go ahead, but that's not what I'm discussing. I'm discussing the OP of this thread and that had nothing to do w/ Dems voting for the MCA. It's a red herring and irrelevant.

"If you dodge this one, I'm done with you."

:rofl: Yes, run away little boy!

[IdesOfOctober]

106. I concede defeat...

... you have bested me. When you first showed up to point out the error of my ways, I should have thrown in the towel right there, and conceded that the main point of last night's show was military commissions.

Now that I have bowed before your greatness, can we now discuss the main point of last night's show?

Namely, the military commissions, and why we have them?

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=109&session=2&vote=00259

Or does your copy of the Senate Rules not explain how cloture motions/filibusters work?

Here, you can borrow mine: http://www.senate.gov/reference/reference_index_subjects/Rules_and_Procedure_vrd.htm

[Beetwasher]

124. If That's What You'd Like To Discuss

Start a thread about it. I'm not in a Dem bashing mood. If you are, that's you're problem. We've got bigger things to worry about than bashing other Dems.

[IdesOfOctober]

55. Where do the Daschle Dems..

... fit into your worldview on why we're in Iraq?

Or are the October 2002 Senate votes "just there" - like Gaeta was "just there" in last night's episode?

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/vote_menu_107_2.htm

Are the Daschle Dems collaborators with BushCo.?

Ides

[Beetwasher]

57. Irrelevant

Since the show was not obviously about any "Daschle Dems" and they are in turn merely a figment of your imagination since Daschle is a non-entity these days.

Who is running secret trials these days? Why won't you answer that question? Since THAT is what the show was about, it's the only relevant point.

[IdesOfOctober]

59. The military, acting under a law passed with many Dems

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=109&session=2&vote=00259

I can keep posting the votes. You can keep ignoring them if you choose.

Ides

[Beetwasher]

65. ROFL

Aww, poor you, having to perform such ridiculous mental gymnastics to keep watching you favorite show. Man, that must suck. :rofl:

http://www.prospect.org/web/page.ww?section=root&name=ViewWeb&articleId=12172

[IdesOfOctober]

67. Ridicule, absent the facts to back up your position...

... is what's funny.

True or false: the military commissions were created with only GOP votes?

Ides

[Beetwasher]

74. This Is For You!

"Fellow Corner writer John Podheretz shared Goldberg’s assessment, and chided conservative fans of the show who were still in denial about its sudden leftward drift. “Message to BSG fans on the Right,” wrote Podheretz sternly. “You cannot … come up with some cockamamie explanation whereby it’s not about how we Americans are the Cylons and the humans are the ‘insurgents’ fighting an ‘imperialist’ power.” "

It's ok, just try to enjoy the show on the level of it just being a TV show and ignore the political message, it's easier that way than performing ridiculous mental gymnastics. :rofl:

[GCP]

77. It's a message about overzealousness regardless of circumstance

You've really stretched in this thread, Beetwasher's right.

[IdesOfOctober]

102. Thanks for agreeing...

"It's a message about overzealousness regardless of circumstance"

I agree. On November 8th, we may have a "circumstance" in which the pent-up passions of one group of Dems give way to overzealousness.

Ides

[Beetwasher]

104. "Beetwasher's right."

:rofl:

Umm, that's agreeing w/ ME, Einstein. :rofl:

Yeesh, you're cognitive dissonance is really something to behold.

[IdesOfOctober]

108. Overzealousness ...

... in any given circumstance.

That would include, would it not, the prospect of such overzealousness on the part of the victorious Dems on November 8th?

I pray for a Democratic victory in both houses. That's the first part of my prayer.

The second part is that the zealots don't win out over the rationals.

Ides

[Beetwasher]

123. Uh Huh

"I pray for a Democratic victory..."

Ha! Why don't you try doing something effective? :rofl:

[TheWraith]

125. I would argue that there's no one single interpretation.

Ronald D. Moore, the creator of the new Galactica, regularly and openly talks about the creative process that's gone into the show. One of the things he discussed in talking about the first two episodes of the new season, Occupation and Precipice, is that they're drawing on a lot of different sources: not just the current day, but also World War II, Algiers, the West Bank, Angola, other places, even the American Revolution.

The idea is to create a story that rings true, so what it has to say is universally applicable, and it rings particularly true today because all these issues are hot in the public consciousness. The Military Commissions Act isn't unique to the moment. After World War II, Churchill wanted to order that any Nazi leaders who were found be shot on sight. Stalin wanted show trials followed by a quick execution. To that end, you could argue that Tom Zarek is Churchill, Roslin is Truman, and Adama is Eisenhower. But I don't think that Moore would let it devolve to the point of there being a specific analogy of one thing to another, but rather a broader portrait of real-world issues.

[IdesOfOctober]

42. I read these Daschle Dems' votes...

... as more than enough of a cautionary tale, without needing Battlestar Gallactica to remind me how we got to this point: http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/vote_menu_107_2.htm

Ides

[Beetwasher]

43. LOL!

Yes, keep slamming Dems, it gives you a lot of legitimacy around here. :eyes:

Pathetic.

What's your view on invasion, occupation and repression and secret trials? Who's doing that these days?

[IdesOfOctober]

45. The American troops, acting under Daschle's gavels...

... and whether it gives me popularity here to say it or not, the facts don't lie: the Daschle Dems had the gavels, and didn't use them, in 2002.

Ides

[Beetwasher]

53. Pathetic

Gee, so far I only see you slamming Dems in this thread. You realize Daschle is no longer a Senator, don't you?

How do you feel about secret prisons & secret trials, which is what the show is about? Who's doing that these day? Care to comment or would you rather slam Dems? :eyes:

[IdesOfOctober]

62. Daschle deserved to get dumped...

... that's one of the points I'm trying to make.

But - at a critical juncture - he wasn't just "a" Senator; he was the Majority Leader: http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/vote_menu_107_2.htm

If you cross-reference the vote to authorize the use of force in Iraq: http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=107&session=2&vote=00237

With the vote this month to authorize the creation of military commissions: http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=109&session=2&vote=00259

... you'll find that in both instances, the Dems had the numbers necessary to stand their ground.

There were many brave Dems who voted their conscience in both instances - many more than there were GOP Senators.

But - plugging this back into the Battlestar analogy - how to categorize and deal with those Dems who were complicit in handing Bush the power to: (1) invade Iraq; and (2) suspend habeas corpus?

How can you solve a problem, if you don't first confront its scope?

Ides

[Beetwasher]

72. John Podhertz Has A Message for You!

"Fellow Corner writer John Podheretz shared Goldberg’s assessment, and chided conservative fans of the show who were still in denial about its sudden leftward drift. “Message to BSG fans on the Right,” wrote Podheretz sternly. “You cannot … come up with some cockamamie explanation whereby it’s not about how we Americans are the Cylons and the humans are the ‘insurgents’ fighting an ‘imperialist’ power.” "

:rofl:

[IdesOfOctober]

79. Daschle has a message for you, too...

... "I blew it, by caving to KKKarl."

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/vote_menu_107_2.htm

"Because I was a 'super nice guy,' the nation now has two new benchwarmers on the Supreme Court."

Finally, Daschle says to tell you, "You're welcome. No thanks necessary."

Ides

[Beetwasher]

82. BSG has many good points to make about barbarism, imperialism, and resistance, and the show's braver

"BSG has many good points to make about barbarism, imperialism, and resistance, and the show's bravery is praiseworthy. But this season, it's charting a course far out into space, and its viewers may not be able to follow."

http://www.slate.com/id/2151425

You've been left behind, Chester. :rofl:

[IdesOfOctober]

86. And you can't seem to find an explanation for...

... the votes that authorized the creation of military commissions.

So, you dwell out there in a galaxy far, far away from the realities of how we got into Iraq, and into the military commissions business.

When you decide you'd like to have an honest and respectful discussion about the votes authorizing force in Iraq, and the creation of the military commissions vote, let me know.

Ides

[Beetwasher]

87. I Don't Need An Explanation Since It's Irrelevant

In the context of the OP (which is an absurdly ridiculous twisting of the theme of the show):

"Gunning down Gaeta: How Dems might execute those who helped"

and in the context of the show:

"But alas, this love affair between Galactica and the right was not to last: in its third season, the show has morphed into a stinging allegorical critique of America’s three-year occupation of Iraq. The trouble started at the end of the second season, when humanity briefly escaped the Cylons and settled down on the tiny planet of New Caprica. The Cylons soon returned and quickly conquered the defenseless humans. But instead of slaughtering everyone, the Cylons decided to take a more enlightened path by “benevolently occupying” the planet and imposing their preferred way of life by gunpoint. The humans were predictably not enthused about their allegedly altruistic rulers, and they immediately launched an insurgency against them using improvised explosive devices and suicide bombers. Needless to say, this did not go over very well in the Galacticon camp."

http://www.prospect.org/web/page.ww?section=root&name=ViewWeb&articleId=12172

You sound like one of those pathetic, lost souls in the Galacticon camp, desperately trying to rationalize how they can still watch the show without being reminded of how their ideology is a total and abject failure.

[CorpGovActivist]

73. My Loyalties Lie with the Republic and the Constitution...

... not with whoever happens to be the DNC Chair, or the Senate Dem leader, or the House Dem leader, at any given moment in history.

As for criticizing Daschle and the other spineless Dems who did not stand their ground in 2002 (or again just last month), I think Ides is being an honest critic.

And as Benjamin Franklin pointed out: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=critic+friend+benjamin+franklin

- Dave

[Beetwasher]

76. Sure

Uh huh, and honest critic. Okey dokey! :eyes:

Sounds like someone trying to rationalize something by twisting it beyond comprehension.

"Fellow Corner writer John Podheretz shared Goldberg’s assessment, and chided conservative fans of the show who were still in denial about its sudden leftward drift. “Message to BSG fans on the Right,” wrote Podheretz sternly. “You cannot … come up with some cockamamie explanation whereby it’s not about how we Americans are the Cylons and the humans are the ‘insurgents’ fighting an ‘imperialist’ power.” "

http://www.prospect.org/web/page.ww?section=root&name=ViewWeb&articleId=12172

[IdesOfOctober]

80. Military commissions vote

... how many Dems voted for your favorite new democratic institution?

Ides

[Beetwasher]

83. Who's In Charge of the Country Again?

Hmm. How pathetic. You are so transparent.

Yes, it's all the Dems fault. :eyes:

Good grief you are pathetic.

[IdesOfOctober]

89. Bush doesn't have a vote in the Senate...

... but the Senate Dems who voted to create the military commissions do: http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=109&session=2&vote=00259

"Who's In Charge of the Country Again?"

Your lack of understanding of the tools available to the minority party is staggering.

"Hmm. How pathetic. You are so transparent."

As what? Someone who will speak up and say, "Hey, why are there *any* Dems on this list authorizing the creation of military commissions?!?"

Is it heretical in your book for any "good" Dem to ask that sort of uncomfortable question?

"Yes, it's all the Dems fault."

Nope. But when history judges who authorized force in Iraq and who authorized the creation of the military commissions, it won't fail to note that the Dems could have at least filibustered in both instances.

"Good grief you are pathetic."

If you have no fact-based, vote-based argument, you're welcome to hurl adjectives.

Ides

[Beetwasher]

90. LOL!

"Fellow Corner writer John Podheretz shared Goldberg’s assessment, and chided conservative fans of the show who were still in denial about its sudden leftward drift. “Message to BSG fans on the Right,” wrote Podheretz sternly. “You cannot … come up with some cockamamie explanation whereby it’s not about how we Americans are the Cylons and the humans are the ‘insurgents’ fighting an ‘imperialist’ power.”

I know it must suck when a favorite show becomes a constant reminder of the abject failure of your ideology. But there it is.

Amazing how all you want to do is slam Dems on a Democratic site and how you hold only them responsible for the Republican agenda. Funny that. :eyes:

[CorpGovActivist]

21. "I Cordially Dislike Allegory..."

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=tolkien+i+cordially+dislike+allegory+in+all+its+manifestations

: )

Lots of people tried to project their interpretations onto Tolkien's work.

Maybe Battlestar's writers would appreciate it if we all agreed that different interpretations may be found in their writing, too?

- Dave

[sendero]

28. I think that like a good song lyric...

.. different people can read different meanings into it. I've read more than one interview with songwriters where an interpretation of the song was offered and the artist said flatly that they were not thinking along those lines when they wrote it.

[CorpGovActivist]

30. Agreed...

... and that's what makes art, art.

- Dave

[sendero]

33. Precisely..

... - and everyone's interpretation is as "real" to them as any other. We don't have to all agree on it to all get something from it.

[CorpGovActivist]

37. Amen!

And "orthodox interpretations" make me break out in hives.

I like hearing others' interpretations, because they may help me to appreciate a finer point or a nuance I may have missed on the first take. I just don't like others saying, "Nope, this is it. These are the only approved takeaway messages from this particular piece of art. Any unapproved views are heresy, punishable by - dare I say it? - The Circle."

; )

- Dave

[yurbud]

75. it's better if it can be read more than one way and one side isn't consistently

bad guys.

a good example was the subplot about Roslin stealing the election. the viewer is actually hoping she would, the exact opposite of how people here feel in real life.

[IdesOfOctober]

101. That was a tough one...

... it really forced a hard examination of whether the ends justify the means, huh?

Ides

[MissB]

27. Chief Tyrol talks about the real message in Season 3

http://forums.scifi.com/index.php?s=00884d96a7c8007199dca6eacc9cbbb2&showtopic=2215298

I have been reading what people are saying about season 3, the insurgency on New Caprica, the suicide bombings, the analogy to today, WW2, Israel, etc... and for the most part so many people are completely missing the point.
The mentality of 'us vs. them' is so prevalent that it obscures any message that may be there to be gleaned.
Know thy enemy. It is not enough to label them as 'evil', 'terroists', 'freedom fighters' or whatever you wish to call 'the other side'.

Understanding brings a road to peace. It does not bring agreement but it can set the table to a true and meaningful dialogue.

Seek first to understand then to be understood.

(way more, minus the paragraph breaks, at the link)

[CorpGovActivist]

31. Those Wares Don't Sell Well in These Parts...

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/CorpGovActivist/1

- Dave

[tlsmith1963]

39. Here is What I Thought

I love BSG & watch it every week. I immediately thought about when Democrats would finally get the upper hand, & what we would do to collaborators who helped the Republicans. I really don't know what I would do, but I know I have a lot of anger against the Republicans & the Democrats who have tried to appease them. I like BSG because it is in your face & doesn't have easy answers to anything. I think it will be remembered as one of the best Science Fiction series in years, right up there with Babylon 5.

[IdesOfOctober]

47. I concur...

... and I still stick to my guns about Gaeta representing those who worked from within BushCo., to help fell it.

Ides

[WillyT]

40. It's Still A Bridge To Nowhere...

I don't make nice with Nazis!

:shrug:

[yorgatron]

46. they have no respect for those who "play nice"

they think anyone who shows compassion is soft,which is why i say convict and imprison as many as possible,and all their co-conspirators.

[IdesOfOctober]

50. But last night's message clearly shows...

... to be sure you define who "we" and "they" are with a finer instrument than The Circle was using.

Gaeta went from being a "they" to a "we" in the mention of a dog bowl.

Ides

[IdesOfOctober]

48. What about Oskar Schindler?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oskar_Schindler

Ides

[Opusnone]

60. Will a MOD please move this thread to the lounge?

I feel like I'm at a comic book convention.

[IdesOfOctober]

70. You're welcome to join in if you watch the show...

... but if you don't like the discussion, why not just ignore the thread?

Ides

[windbreeze]

88. I don't watch the show...hell, I had a time figuring out

what everyone was talking about....but what I do like to watch, is the interaction between real live people taking place in this thread...it's been interesting...and entertaining...
windbreeze

(ps: I prefer to think there was more than one meaning...and that every person will see their own points according to what they know about the real world...live/let live...if I interpret it differently than you...I can accept that...and so should others...I don't like it when someone says I am wrong just because I don't agree with them...that's too much like, "you're either with us, or against us")

[IdesOfOctober]

94. Rovite orthodoxy...

... has no place in how art is interpreted.

: )

Ides

[Garbo 2004]

91. Dramatic hyperbole aside ("Lord of the Flies faction of the DNC," are you referring to

the actual members of the Democratic National Committee?), what precisely are you "fearful" would befall whistleblowers like David? What do you mean by "How Dems might execute those who helped?"

[IdesOfOctober]

95. There are Dems with outright bloodlust...

... and I would term them, "Lord of the Flies Democrats," who would - left to their own devices - seize the gavels and take the country into a sort of retributionist Reign of Terror. Yes, some of them are right there in the DNC.

"what precisely are you 'fearful' would befall whistleblowers like David?"

There are thoughtful, rational, liberal/progressive Dems who - if they prevail - will do the country a great service, by readily giving credit to those who (at great personal risk) helped build the case against BushCo.

And then there are those frothing-at-the-mouth Dems who - if they prevail - would like to airbrush the history of who helped.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reign_of_terror

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tale_of_two_cities

If you remember your Tale of Two Cities, "heroes" of the French Revolution were later executed by the radicals. I don't think we have to worry about literal executions, but I do think that there are some in the DNC who wouldn't bat an eyelash at airbrushing history, without regard to the personal or professional toll it might take on those whistleblowers.

Not everyone on Capitol Hill is scrupulous about giving credit (or air cover) where it's due. I think David and the other whistleblowers have found a good group of lawmakers to work with, and I am cautiously optimistic that those whistleblowers will emerge OK.

But sometimes, politicians have a way of taking all the useful information, and then taking all the credit, to boot.

"What do you mean by 'How Dems might execute those who helped?'"

What's described above - leaving these whistleblowers vulnerable to personal or professional retribution later on down the road.

Ides

[CorpGovActivist]

105. For the Record, I Think the HAL Whistleblowers Will Be Fine...

... I really do.

I think that both the House and the Senate bodies who have been looking into these matters are dealing with the whistleblowers in good faith.

- Dave

P.S. I do, however, see some evidence on The Hill that there is a Madame Defarge wannabe or two (speaking of Tale of Two Cities): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madame_Defarge.

But I see far, far more evidence of those who just want to put things right.

[Rex]

96. It was interesting to see in last weeks episode how Tigh

walks away the unsung hero and Adama gets all the credit. The dirty tactics used by Tigh and then he poisons his own wife, a collaborator. Really powerful scene with Tigh walking away after landing (mixing into the crowd) on BG and Adama being hoisted up on peoples shoulders, the hero.

This weeks episode was good, not their best, but very to the point. They nearly killed the man who was responsible for their escape. It's all about perceptions on that show. The best show on TV IMO.

[IdesOfOctober]

99. Tigh led a mob...

... and gave into its demands. As his "leadership" of the Fleet during Adama's incapacitation showed, his "leadership" skills are limited, at best.

I thought last night there was a moment when Tigh may even have begun to realize that he could have avoided sacrificing Ellen, after all, as The Circle had the Gaeta Epiphany.

Had Adama been on the planet, and had Apollo made a Faustian bargain with the Cylon to get him out (as Ellen did for Tigh), would Adama have given in to the demands that Apollo be put to death, as Tigh did with Ellen?

I think Adama would have found a way to thread the needle, by cooling the passions of the angry junior officers in the insurgency.

George Washington had to do this after the Revolutionary War, when the soldiers were angry at not being paid:

"The War for Independence was essentially won in 1781 after George pulled off a stunning surprise attack at Yorktown. But his army couldn’t be disbanded until a treaty was signed. His men were furious; they couldn’t return to plant crops and care for their families. Worse yet, most of them hadn’t been paid for two years.

It is hard to believe, but as late as March of 1783 they were still marooned in a dirty, crowded camp in Newburgh, New York. Congress continued to turn a deaf ear to George’s pleas that the men be paid or discharged. It wasn’t just the enlisted men who were grumbling about this shameful ill-treatment. Scores of officers were circulating anonymous pamphlets calling for mutiny. The rag-tag army had won the war, but now it stood to lose the peace. It looked as though the American experiment would be over before it had really begun, and the nation would be plunged into bloody civil war.

Then George performed one last desperate act. He showed up unexpectedly at a secret meeting that was designed to launch the mutiny. He asked if he could speak and was reluctantly given the floor. He called for his officers to be patient just a little while longer. He reminded them that the army could not be a law unto itself. He also pointed out that they had fought together to institute democracy, not a new kind of tyranny. And he concluded by saying, "I have a letter here from a congressman that will prove the good faith of our government." He drew the parchment from his pocket and unfolded it.

But the light in the tavern was too dim for him to make out the words. With a trembling hand, he fumbled for his glasses. He hated them and had never worn them in public before. In a deeply mortified tone, he apologized, "Gentlemen, you will permit me to put on my spectacles, for I have not only grown gray but almost blind in the service of my country."

He started to read the letter, but he couldn’t speak. His voice, as well as his composure, deserted him. He stalked out of the room without uttering another word.

The officers were all hardened soldiers who had witnessed terrible sights without flinching. But, seeing their beloved commander reduced to such a state, they began to weep openly. They immediately pledged to follow orders and quell all attempts at mutiny. Once again, George Washington had saved the new nation from destruction."

http://www.stewardsoftherange.org/libertymatters/wint97-98/lmj-wint97-98-4.htm

*************************

I hope that the Adama faction of the DNC wins out after November 8th, not the Tigh faction.

Ides

[Rex]

116. George also turned down his armies offer of Emperor.

Finally, somebody learned the mistake of the late Roman Empire. If Democracy is to work, it must be run by the people. The irony here is Iraq and what a Democratic (America) has done with it.

I see Tigh as the classic anti-hero of the story, at first I thought it was just Sharon but it seems the story can hold a few. What really gets me is Tighs character is the one we read about in the bitter colonel or general that writes a tell-all book after retirement. An all too real character and victim of war. He left his eye down on New Caprica and his dead wife. That really is some heavy shit no matter what the plotline.

George Washington rode a thin line between The General and The Emperor. The amount of money Congress promised to pay whatever was needed to beat the British was all a bluff. We didn't have anything to trade, just some farmers that some how beat the 'worlds best military' (gee, that sounds familiar). Washington didn't want to rule America, what a shit task under those circumstances. To rule over an army and a few provinces in a country already in debt to well established nations. The British thought so too and came back in 1812. We still prevailed, which is what you see in BG. The human race (all 41,000) prevailing against a foreign entity. The fight for an identity, our fight against the British.

BG is the first sci-fi show I've watched without caring about the sci-fi part. The characters are multi-dimensional and expose a new character flaw every session. Nothing quite compares to this show IMO.

[IdesOfOctober]

117. Great observations...

... I think they've got amazing writers.

One thing though: we started the War of 1812.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_1812

Thought we'd get Canada while Britain was distracted with Napoleon.

See also the provisions of the Articles of Confederation that allowed Canada to join, pre-approved:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Articles_of_confederation

See also Benjamin Franklin's aspirations for Canada (describing the tail of the rattlesnake - the 14th rattle - as Canada joining the other 13 colonies): http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=benjamin+franklin+rattlesnake+%22an+american+guesser%22+canada


Ides

[Rex]

118. Don't rely too heavily on wiki

The British wanted us back and planned on taking over by military force in 1812. I'm surprised America had its shit together that fast.

Good thing we never took Canada, what would we do with it?

[IdesOfOctober]

119. Where are you getting that we didn't start it?

Here's one version taught at West Point: http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/books/amh/amh-06.htm

Ides

[Rex]

121. Oh I'm not, just pointing out how fast Britian tried to get us

back into the Empire.

[yurbud]

107. I was surprised they didn't play out the occupation longer before rescue

that could have been a whole season or even a couple.

[IdesOfOctober]

109. I think they had a shorter timetable, boxed in by...

... Election Day, to make their points.

They get 1 more stab at this before the election. I wonder what they'll devote that episode to addressing?

Ides

[yurbud]

110. sounds like it's more on the cylons next time...

[IdesOfOctober]

111. If last night's episode taught me anything...

... it's not to underestimate the BG writers' ability to pack a dense meme cluster into roughly 45 minutes.

Even when examining "the other," they manage to force us to take a good hard look at ourselves.

Ides

[yurbud]

112. yep--we're doing you a FAVOR by occupying you, and trying to teach you

about the one true god.

[IdesOfOctober]

115. Shifting viewer loyalties...

... to the characters, as a metaphor for the fickle electorate?

; )

Ides

[yurbud]

122. now that would be funny if some freeper was watching and suddenly

realized the Cylons were the GOOD guys.

[CorpGovActivist]

126. I Think It's Gonna Be OK

"Last night's episode made me very fearful for people like David, should the Lord of the Flies faction of the DNC win out."

As I said before, I think the cooler heads up on Capitol Hill are gonna prevail.

After all, they're the ones with all the data.

- Dave

[IdesOfOctober]

127. I'm beginning to think so too...

... based on my latest contacts with the MSM.

Ides