Who wants bush's border fence?

[panader0]

According to a CNN Poll, 83% of people are against it.
www.cnn.com
So why does he sign the bill?

[babylonsister]

1. Why else but to try to swing votes.

I imagine this too could/will backfire on him.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

2. gimme an "H A L I" and a "B U R T O N" What's that spell? PROFITS!

in the name of security

[HereSince1628]

9. That's my bet, too. Although it could be a couple other

contractors.

[HereSince1628]

10. Sorry, double posted...

[dkofos]

37. Boing got this one I think

At least they got the electronic surveilance part of it

[rpannier]

3. because

heshh...a lee-durr. he doesn't read polls (largely because he's an illiterate f**k).
he makesh his deshizuns on whuts besht for ammuricuh
he's a decidur.

most importantly

he probably has stock in the company that will get the no-bid contract

[Atman]

4. "So why does he sign the bill?"

Because 83% of Americans are against it.

Maybe if we had begged for a 700 mile fence, he would have hired boarder patrols instead. He's kinda pathological that way. We're kinda like the frogs of his childhood, and he takes great joy in sticking firecrackers up America's collective ass.

[gulfcoastliberal]

5. I want an end to "H1-B" visas and all other skilled work visas that corps.....

...lobby congress for more and more every year. We have plenty of well-educated Americans to fill those jobs. I want an end to this program that tells educated Americans they wasted their lives getting advanced engineering, software, hardware, etc degrees because our "American" companies want to pay an intelligent foreigner with an equivalent education far less money since they aren't American. That is economic sabotage and traitorous, too.

[dkofos]

38. I'm with you

[TahitiNut]

40. I want an end to an American work force that CAN'T VOTE.

It's not just H1-B visas ... there are about a dozen different visa categories that permit "non-immigrant" workers to take jobs in the U.S. ("Non-immigrant" means they're NOT, supposedly, intending to become permanent residents or citizens.) This includes the various "guest worker" programs. Furthermore, I'm adamantly opposed to depriving ex-convicts their voting rights.

This is nothing but a corrupt, autocratic ideology that affords "supercitizen" status to the wealthy and sharecropper status to workers. It's abominable.

[sutz12]

6. I believe 65% of Americans supported stem cell research....

Doesn't matter what most Americans think in our new American Theocracy. Apparently God wants us to build a fence.

BTW, I believe only about 50 miles of it is actually financed in the current budget. Typical. Pass the law, but don't spend the money. Another non-starter wedge issue.

[The Anti-Neo Con]

7. Big waste of money.

Why build a wall, which people can climb, burrow under, or break through, when the immigration problem can be solved through other legislation.

Pass legislation to punish employers that hire illegals harshly. Jail time and maybe a $20,000 fine per illegal hired would work to help deter employers from hiring them. If there are no jobs for them here, they have no reason to come.

[Avalux]

29. The wall will never be built.

There's no plan, and more importantly, there's no funding. The bill is an election stunt.

[Hangingon]

8. I'll take the fence

Another stolen pick up loaded with illegals stopped yesterday after a high speed chase. Driver, the coyote, got away. There have been a half dozen of these this month. How many are getting thru? A good friend was checking his lease in the country when he was jumped and beaten by several illegals. They stole his new pick up. It was later found in Dallas - the engine was burned out. The flood of illegal Mexican is one thing, but there are OTM coming over that are much more worrisome.

[Bridget Burke]

22. Well, since you've got lots of undocumented anecdotes about "illegals"....

Why don't you share some about "OTM's"?

The fence is an idiotic idea. It won't help you at all.

[bluethruandthru]

11. This fence is the dumbest thing I've ever heard!!

How about we also build a roof over the entire country to keep out space aliens?

[NaturalHigh]

12. Actually, the poll asks...

Will fencing out illegal immigrants crossing from Mexico solve the U.S. immigration problem?

If it had asked "Are you in favor of the fence?" or "Do you think it will HELP solve the illegal immigration problem?", I suspect the poll results would have been much different.

Personally, I'm for the fence AND a lot more border patrol agents.

[hughee99]

19. Bad poll question IMHO...

designed to get a desired response so that it can be portrayed as an overwhelmingly large number of people against the fence. This type of tactic is worthy of Faux news.

For the record, I'm still undecided on the fence itself (I just haven't looked into the proposal enough to make my decision yet) though I 100% support more boarder patrol agents.

[RebelOne]

13. The question wasn't who wants it, but will it solve the problem.

I'm sure many want it, but they don't think it will solve the illegal immigration problem.

[raccoon]

14. Can you say "boondoggle," boys and girls? nt

[catmandu57]

15. Pandering

To his base, pandering to the fearful, let's enforce the laws against hiring illegals drying up the source will work better than building a damn wall.

[SpreadItAround]

16. Why build a 700 mile fence for a 1,300 mile border?

All other arguments aside, I think that is how long the actual border is, someone correct me if I'm wrong.

[Gruenemann]

26. Because that cheap labor has to get in SOMEWHERE!

The ruling classes and captains of industry are the recipients of deeply discounted labor coming across the border; they have absolutely NO intention of stopping the supply.

[BlooInBloo]

31. Good try - 2000 miles. Makes your question even more sharp.

Google knows all.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=united+states+mexico+border+length&btnG=Google+Search

[dkofos]

42. They only plan to build it near population centers

and use electronic surveilance for the rest.

Most of the border area is desert. Not a friendly environment.
Many people have died and more will die trying to cross this inhospitable land.

The fence has cut down the number of illegal crossings in areas where it is
already in place. (or so says the border patrol), but it doesn't stop them all.
It just gives them a longer more dangerous walk.

[XemaSab]

59. They're not going to be able to built it

along the Rio Grande, which is 1000 miles, or half the length of the border.

[Felix Mala]

17. Pat Buchanan

I have to laugh at that idiot. If you could get into a time machine and go back 140 years, you'd hear people tirading against the "immigrant" threat, except they'd be talking about Irish families like Buchanan's instead of Mexican families.

[Bridget Burke]

25. Pat claims to be "Irish"....

Pat is one-half German, one-quarter Scots Irish, and one-quarter Irish. He received a Roman Catholic baptism and has remained in the church throughout his life.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pat_buchanan

Descendants of Ulster Protestants invented "Scotch Irish" to distance themselves from the hordes of hungry Catholics who followed. (I'm got blood from that ornery clan, myself, along with the bog-trotter blood.)

However, most of his ancestors DID face opposition from the "real" Americans.

[hughee99]

30. Sounds like most of his ancestors also came here legally. n/t

[Bridget Burke]

41. Well, it was easy to be legal back then.

You showed up at Ellis Island (or whatever) & passed a physical. Welcome to the USA!

But we don't have PROOF that they were legal. Perhaps he can provide documentation?

[hughee99]

44. The biggest issue I always see in the "immigration" argument here

is that for the most part, those against "immigration" oppose ILLEGAL immigration, while those who support "immigration" like to bolster the argument by not drawing any distinctions between the two. Sure, there are also those who oppose any immigration of any kind, but you don't see to many of those on DU.

[Bridget Burke]

45. The biggest question I always have:

Is why do you guys always put "illegal" in upper case?

I repeat: It was much easier to be legal in the old days. But xenophobia is an old American tradition.

[hughee99]

47. The reason people put ILLEGAL in upper case

is because they are usually responding to an argument where someone make no distinction between legal and illegal immigration, while the the poster wants to make clear that they are not against immigration in general, but against ILLEGAL immigration.

Often times it seems like those in support of "immigration" use the argument tactic that there's no difference between legal and illegal immigration since many years ago, there were almost no immigration laws. They tend to imply that the person who is against ILLEGAL immigration is a hypocrite, because their ancestors came here at a time when you really couldn't violate immigration laws (since there were almost none), and now their seeking to impose or enforce them because "they've got theirs" or even worse, because they "hate brown people".

I wonder if those who see no difference between legal and illegal immigration feel we should get rid of all immigration laws, and make it easier for anyone who wants to come here to actually get here?

[Bridget Burke]

48. I'm not going to IMPLY that those whose folks came over....

When there were few immigration laws but support the stringent & expensive system we now have are hypocrites.

I'm saying out loud that they are HYPOCRITES.

[hughee99]

51. Do you believe that the US should get rid of all immigration laws

and do what it can to make it easier and safer for anyone who wants to come here to get here?

[Bridget Burke]

52. The laws could be greatly simplified.

Back to the Good Old Days, perhaps?

If it was good enough for my Grandma & Grandpa from East Galway, why not? I guarantee they would not have qualified by today's rules.

By the way, what's your opinion of the large number of ILLEGAL Irish in the USA?

[hughee99]

56. Which good old days?

1607, 1776, 1840's, 1920's?

Would you suggest any limits on the number of people allowed in per year?

[hughee99]

61. I'm not a fan of ILLEGAL immigration

(in case I haven't said so). It doesn't matter to me what their country of origin is.

Because "it was good enough for Grandma and Grandpa" isn't really any sort of justification for why the immigration laws back then were good, or why the laws now are bad.

[entanglement]

62. OTOH, people who supposedly oppose only 'illegal' immigration

invariably oppose ALL immigration, in effect. This is because they look upon all immigrants as economic competitors or a threat to their way of life. Probe deep enough, and these people will tell you

(1) They don't want more immigrants in their neighborhood (they certainly don't care to qualify their opposition with 'legal' or 'illegal' in this matter)

(2) They don't want legal immigrants competing for jobs with Americans (which is almost ALL jobs, when you think about it). I am YET to get a reply other than 'ethnic restaurants' to the question "So what jobs are ok for (legal) immigrants to do?"

I would like such people to be honest enough to say: "I don't want any more immigrants, period, because I view them as an economic and cultural threat". Distasteful, but honest.

[hughee99]

63. I actually work with

several LEGAL immigrants, my brother-in-law came here from Jamaica LEGALLY and is currently going through the process of becoming a permanent resident. I don't have any personal or professional issues with any immigrants of any kind (the ones I have met, both legal and illegal have been nice people), though I think it is not a good idea to completely open up the boarders to as many people as can get here.

My issue is that the government should have some policy as to how immigration should be handled, and it should be enforced. Those who break the rules should not be rewarded. This seems to me to be a normal Democratic position on most issues, but for some reason that's not the position many take on immigration. While almost no one seems to complain about the currently laws, everyone speaks up about the enforcement. I'd like to see someone who is honest enough to say, "I think anyone who can get to the US should be considered a legal resident, and the government should not put up any obstacles to make it more difficult for them to get here."

[RB TexLa]

50. And Harper's other classic

We were coming for their children.

[Bridget Burke]

54. When JFK was elected President...

He reportedly told LBJ, "Now we can build that tunnel to the Vatican!"

LBJ replied: "That's OK, as long as Brown & Root gets the contract."

(Brown & Root is a subsidiary of Halliburton. And, yes, if this conversation ever took place, I'm pretty sure that JFK was joking.)

[RB TexLa]

58. The other funny JFK joke

Letter from JFK to John XXIII after the election "pack your bags"

Letter from John XXIII after JFK didn't push for federal money for Catholic schools "pack your bags"

[Hubert Flottz]

18. Mr. GorbaChimp...tear down your wall.

Iron Curtains are not nice things...I've been there and seen one and it sucked.

[hughee99]

21. They had to build the Berlin Wall

to stop the flow of immigrants from coming into East Berlin, though if I recall correctly, it was pretty effective, because I've never seen or heard any stories of people sneaking right over the wall to get in.

[Giant Robot]

34. You also forgot the guards

and machine gun nests that shot people.

[Hubert Flottz]

35. The wall didn't stop in Berlin.

The inner German border

The border between the two German states was long regarded as the most likely invasion route from either east or west. Accordingly, it was the most heavily guarded section of the Iron Curtain, and was arguably the most militarised border anywhere in the world.

The route of the border between the three Western occupation zones and the Soviet Zone was laid down by the victorious powers after the Second World War, and did not change when the two German states were founded after 1949. It roughly matched the old state borders between Hanover and Prussia, Hesse and Anhalt, Hesse and Thuringia, and Bavaria. Continuing south, the border between Bavaria and Czechoslovakia was similarly fortified on the Czech side.

The GDR's official name for the border was the "state border between the GDR and the Federal Republic of Germany and West Berlin". In the FRG, the term Zonengrenze (zone border) was also used. The Berlin Wall was officially termed the "anti-fascist protection rampart" in the GDR, but was widely known simply as "die Mauer" ("the Wall") on both sides of the border.

The status of the GDR borders with Poland and Czechoslovakia was nominally open, these countries being "fraternal socialist allies" and fellow Warsaw Pact members. In practice, however, residents leaving the GDR and Eastern bloc residents visiting it often faced tough controls. MORE...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GDR_border_system

More on the "wall"...(photos)

http://www.brianrose.com/lostborder/curtain1.htm

http://www.brianrose.com/lostborder.htm

Photo gallery for the documentation of the former German-German border of Marco Bertram

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.deutsch-deutsche-grenze.de/&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=4&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3DGrenze%2B%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DG

[izzie]

20. I think it is silly. England could not keep them out and it is an Island

Guess it will be good in the long run. Some day people will come and look at the Great Wall. It will be sort of fun. You can see old walled places all over. Quebec City plays their up. You look for the gates and all that. Sort of like the neo-Middle Ages from our own pretend royals.

[Bridget Burke]

27. Except the parts that have already been built are damned ugly....

They'll be rusting ruins before the century is out.

[porphyrian]

23. Since when has he listened to the will of the people? - n/t

[Norquist Nemesis]

24. I want a Bush Border Fence

Preferably within the confines of the Hague!

[Avalux]

28. For the far right - the GOP needs their base to vote.

The GOP has abandoned moderate Republicans and other sane people of this country; they know they can't win if the fundies don't vote on November 7th, and there's a very real possibility they may decide to stay home. Yesterday's speech and today's bill signing were both meant for that group of people. Look for a lot more in the in the next week and a half.

[originalpckelly]

32. Bush himself...they are putting up a "virtual fence"

in other words it will be another virtually pointless waste of our tax dollars.

[emdee]

33. Every time I hear about The Fence...

I hear Reagan saying "Tear down that wall!"

Am I very naive or wouldn't punishing those who hire illegals *basically* solve the problem? Not entirely but for the most part?

I know that under the Bush administration very few business owners have been fined for hiring illegals - this IS the administration who wants cheap labor and no benefits after all. And, it has been under this administration that the problem has grown to the size that it is. OR, has it? I also wonder if it is an issue thrown out there to, once again, be a smoke bomb hiding other issues such as the deficit, health care losses, and on and on.

The very people who complain about having to school these illegal children and care for them when they are sick ---- want the cheap labor!

It is so frustrating these days, is it not? If this election doesn't solve even a few problems, I think I'll become one of those people who know NOTHING about the world around her. It might be a happier existence.

emdee

[NaturalHigh]

46. Punishing employers who hire illegals would go a long way...

toward solving the problem, IF our government would actually do it. It would have to be a stiff punishment, though, no slap on the hand. The way it is now, they can basically pay a fine and still make a profit from exploiting cheap labor.

[emdee]

49. I remember hearing some numbers....

Clinton's administration fined something like 650 corporations, which still seems low. But, this group has only fined about 30 or less. I think that one of the PNAC goals is to have two classes - super poor and super rich. Our wages have remained stagnant - jobs shipped overseas - illegals are really encouraged for the cheap labor - and the corporation makes more and more profit for the suits. My husband's wages have remained on an even keel (considering that every 'raise' is more than taken by insurance coverage raises AND inflation continues to rise at unheard-of rates) for at least seven years. I think that the illegal labor force actually helps the agenda of these creeps (hello, Agent Mike - I don't think you are a creep!). :hi:

emdee

[Vidar]

36. border fence = 2 sections of barbed wire, 10 hummers, a light show,

and a "machine that goes ping", Surely a bargain at $1.2 billion.

[NotGivingUp]

39. because he's the freaking idiot decider (dictator)!!! and his

buddies stand to make some more money!!! that's all that matters.

[bif]

43. Not unless they use it to enclose the Pig Farm

I don't want that fucker roaming free after the 2008 election.

[Bridget Burke]

57. Bush will sell the pig farm the minute he leaves DC.

I hear he's going to move to a gated commmunity in the Metroplex. With a golf course.

I predict that Laura will begin spending more time "away"--perhaps in Austin. One afternoon, she & her daughters will have a few margaritas & decide to write a book....

[Hong Kong Cavalier]

53. Because he doesn't want to go after the illegal businessess

You know, the ones who hire these people.
He's never wanted to go after the businesses. 'cause that'd also piss off the real money donors to the 'Pubican party.
The rich businesses who make obscene profits exploiting these people would pull their money.



It's funny...I have a brother-in-law who was laid off from his job in the last year as an airline pilot and
somehow he's blamed his employment woes on illegal immigration.
I'm still trying to figure that one out.

[bdamomma]

55. now what about the Northern border of the US, or is he not

concerned because there are no "brown people" up there, that's how * would think wouldn't it?

[XemaSab]

60. I've never even been asked for ID at the Canadian border

At least a car full of Mexicans might raise a red flag, but a car full of white, English-speaking Canadians who are essentially like 85% of the American public in appearance and speech?

It's way too easy to get into the US from Canada illegally.

[pwb]

64. McCain wants the jobs for his state.

4 states get all that money, the other 46 get the finger.

[porphyrian]

65. Terrorists do.

If people are stupid enough to think that wall is going to stop them and it costs us an enormous amount of money to implement, they're all for it.

[Blackhatjack]

66. It was all show, no funding ... No Fence Will Be Built. End of Story.

THis was deception at the highest level. Pass bill to build the fence and gain political cover, but pass another bill that saps any funds to build the fence --which means it will never be built.

Typical D.C. deception. No Fence.

[Initech]

67. If the repukes are so concerned about keeping jobs in America...

can we fucking eliminate outsourcing? They want to build a fence around the Mexican border because of the "DEY TOOK UR JOBS!!!!" defense, but they want to give our jobs to other countries because of cheaper labor (all in the name of the almighty dollar). This reeks of hypocrisy.