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kpete Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 09:27 PM
Original message
Judge Orders Release of Abu Ghraib Child Rape Photos
Judge Orders Release of Abu Ghraib Child Rape Photos
Submitted by davidswanson on Mon, 2006-10-23 20:54. Evidence
By Greg Mitchell, http://www.editorandpublisher.com

NEW YORK A federal judge ruled today that graphic pictures of detainee abuse at Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison must be released over government claims that they could damage America's image. Last year a Republican senator conceded that they contained scenes of "rape and murder" and Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld said they included acts that were "blatantly sadistic."


............ Seymour Hersh, who helped uncover the scandal, said in a speech before an ACLU convention: "Some of the worse that happened that you don't know about, ok? Videos, there are women there. Some of you may have read they were passing letters, communications out to their men ... . The women were passing messages saying 'Please come and kill me, because of what's happened.'

"Basically what happened is that those women who were arrested with young boys/children in cases that have been recorded. The boys were sodomized with the cameras rolling. The worst about all of them is the soundtrack of the boys shrieking that your government has. They are in total terror it's going to come out."

Judge Hellerstein said today that publication of the photographs will help to answer questions not only about the unlawful conduct of American soldiers, but about the command structure that failed to exercise discipline over the troops, and the persons in that command structure whose failures in exercising supervision may make them culpable along with the soldiers who were court-martialed for perpetrating the wrongs.

more at:
http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/node/14864
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 09:29 PM
Response to Original message
1. Think we'll see them before Nov. 7?
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YDogg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. In a word, nope.
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bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 10:43 PM
Response to Reply #2
23. *** This article is from 2005 ***
This article is over a year old.

http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_di...

Judge Orders Release of Abu Ghraib Photos

By Greg Mitchell

Published: September 29, 2005 12:45 PM ET

NEW YORK A federal judge ruled today that graphic pictures of detainee abuse at Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison must be released over government claims that they could damage America's image. Last year a Republican senator conceded that they contained scenes of "rape and murder" and Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld said they included acts that were "blatantly sadistic."

U.S. District Judge Alvin K. Hellerstein ordered the release of certain pictures in a 50-page decision that said terrorists in Iraq and Afghanistan have proven they "do not need pretexts for their barbarism."

<snip>
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civildisoBDence Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 09:33 AM
Response to Reply #23
64. Oh God, my eyes...a photo of a statue's naked breast!
What kind of moral code covers up a piece of art, then covers up the rape of women and children?

Newsprism
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YDogg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #64
72. Let the Eagle Soar, Bay-bee!
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TroglodyteScholar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #64
91. Statue made unoffensive to the GOP
There's GOT to be something the GOP would prefer over the boring old curtain trick...

...

...

...

...

...

...

...

...

...

...

...

...

...

...

I've got it!

...

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SlavesandBulldozers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #91
99. well done
very republican now.
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Joanne98 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #23
93. It saz 10/03/06
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SPKrazy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 09:29 PM
Response to Original message
3. Release Them
show the criminals for what they are!
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 09:30 PM
Response to Original message
4. "Damn liberal activist judges...
Always on the side of the enemy, not America."

-Freeper X, Y, Z

I wonder if they will come out before the elections, because it might make Americans realize that yes Virginia America has been torturing detainees.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 09:31 PM
Response to Original message
5. We've been here before. But if they are really released... Katie
bar the door!

Thanks for keeping on top of this, kpete!

This could be DY-NO-MITE!
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bluestateguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 09:33 PM
Response to Original message
6. Were Americans the rapists?
The reason I ask is because if the rapists were Iraqi soldiers (under our command, of course), this will only be turned on it's head by the knuckle-dragging Right to yelp about how all Muslims are savages and barbarians.

Either way it's a horrendous crime against humanity that makes me want to vomit.
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wickerwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 04:21 AM
Response to Reply #6
39. I think I read it was an army translator.
He wasn't an Iraqi soldier (because the Iraqi army hadn't been formed yet) but he was from Iraq and working as a translator.

But who cares. It sounds pretty obvious that it was officially sanctioned, *filmed* by U.S. soldiers and then shown to other prisoners as a kind of psychological torture.
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WHAT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 09:34 PM
Response to Original message
7. There's a reason I have my images, here, disabled....
none the less, this should be available to the American public. It explains part of the Foley unconcern.

It's just wrong!

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napi21 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 09:36 PM
Response to Original message
8. Haven't judges ordered this in the past?
What's to force them to comply this time?
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Bucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 09:48 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. What's to force them to comply this time? Why the Constitution of course!
:rofl: Good one!!
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EmperorHasNoClothes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 09:42 PM
Response to Original message
9. I don't think the Public needs to see children being raped/murdered.
I absolutely think this should be reviewed by the courts, but kept sealed from public viewing. Besides the fact that it's truly reprehensible, the fact that the victims are minors deserves their protection. Not only that, we just don't need pictures of sexual abuse of children running around the internet - some extremely sick F*cks would use it as child porn.
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Valid points
Edited on Mon Oct-23-06 09:55 PM by malaise
On second thoughts, they can release the audio so that people here what they did to the people of Iraq.
Add.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 09:48 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. Unfortunately for our nation, the truth must come out.
For some, this is the only thing that will open their eyes.

Sad, yes.
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IdaBriggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 09:51 PM
Response to Reply #9
15. Yeah, the Republicans would be getting off on it, but the reality is
that people need to know what is happening "in our name." There is a reason the Americans are hated in Iraq, and the child rape/murder photos are part of it. Those who don't want to see won't look; personally, I'll be printing them off and handing them out to every single God Damned Republican I know. Some may whack off to them; overall, I think the rest will throw up -- and that will make this a GOOD holiday!
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station agent Donating Member (290 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #15
68. Man that's harsh!
Good work, palie.
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Bucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 09:52 PM
Response to Reply #9
16. I feel the same way about photos of lynchings and the Holocaust. Yuck-o!
Wait, no I don't. I agree that a few marginal weirdos may get off to this. Oliver North, for one. But the rest of the world must see what this administration has led us to. As disgusting as the pictures may be, we must see them. You need to see where your tax dollars are going. The truth must come out. We've pretended to be blind for too long and the evil keeps getting worse.

We can't stop it until we know what it is.
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TroubleMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #9
18. Yes, they do need to see it OR IT WILL HAPPEN AGAIN.

If people don't see it with their own eyes, they'll never believe it happened, and those who commited such atrocities will get away with it. You can blank out the faces to protect the indentities of the victims.

This stuff should be required for everybody over 18 to watch to make sure we never let this happen again.
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Poll_Blind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 12:23 AM
Response to Reply #9
28. People would never have understood the real horror of the Holocaust if..
...the pictures had been deemed too horiffic to show. "Shindler's List" is shown in public schools, our public schools, without any sort of censoring of breasts or genitals.

  Why? Because sometimes words cannot truly do justice to the horror of an event. To understand what level of abyssal evil was perpetrated, people have to see what really happened with thier own eyes.

"During the Shoah, Jews, Gypsies, Homosexuals were rounded up, gassed in large numbers and then placed into giant ovens to burn the evidence."

That sentence does nothing to describe, nothing, the horror...the inhumanity that the photographs show. And those photographs have been used to teach generation after generation in America and all over the world what evil really means.

I believe the public should have access to these photographs, beyond a doubt.

"Some Iraqis were stacked naked in human pyramids while their guards smiled and waved."

"A female guard gives the thumbs-up signal while holding a prisoner on a leash like a dog on all-fours."


Do those two descriptive sentences above really impart what happened at Abu Ghraib? Do they really elicit the outrage which should greet these heinous acts?

I do not believe they do any more than the sentence describing the physical atrocities of the Holocaust does. If you don't want to view them because it will disturb you too greatly to do so, I certainly understand and respect absolutely your choice not to view them. Your reasoning that the public should be prevented from seeing this because "ome extremely sick F*cks would use it as child porn" is saddening. I'm sure some of those "sick F*cks" probably also use scenese of naked women and children being gassed in Schindler's List as child porn. Should those things be restricted as well? Of course not.

I think consideration on the utilization of this material by deranged individuals should be second to it's legitimate purpose and is below serious consideration as a reason to prevent this material's release.

PB

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nam78_two Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #28
67. What he said
Edited on Tue Oct-24-06 10:42 AM by nam78_two
People need to see whats being done in their name. That being said, I would probably not be able to stomach it myself, but I have always been against the war and think about this stuff a lot so I would probably be able to give myself an excuse for not looking...

Thats an attitude I normally think is wrong-if someone lived it, you should at least be able to look at a picture, but....yeah I don't think I would be able to look in this specific case... :(
At least not just yet....
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LeahMira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-25-06 09:39 AM
Response to Reply #28
109. Maybe you are right.
The film that was shown at the Nuremberg trials showed just some of what had happened but was more powerful than the testimony of the men on trial, even when those men were saying outright how they were thinking when they ordered the things they ordered. Maybe it is possible to show everything to some and just some of it to everyone, out of respect for those children who somehow survived.
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Ms. Clio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 01:40 AM
Response to Reply #9
33. yeah, we should never look at these photos of Wounded Knee, either
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civildisoBDence Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #33
88. Powerful images...wow
Sunlight is the best disinfectant. Let the videos out.

Newsprism
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Cronus Protagonist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 04:16 AM
Response to Reply #9
38. Yeah, what would the wierdos do?
Edited on Tue Oct-24-06 04:17 AM by Cronus Protagonist
We can't allow the truth to come out in case some wierdos might like it? Might that be people with "San Francisco" morals? Are you working for Karl?

:evilgrin:
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wickerwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 04:27 AM
Response to Reply #9
40. You have to weigh the aspects...
I remember the night we invaded Iraq, the guys in the house across the street threw a keg party with fireworks like it was the Fourth of frickin* July. You know they were getting off on all the bombs and carnage. I think (or at least fervently hope) a few pictures of kids being raped would cure their hard-on for war and for me that's well worth a few sickos getting off on the images.

For me, it's far more obscene to be a war-cheerleader from the porch in your house in the U.S.

That final 30% needs to be slapped in the face with reality over and over and over again every single day until Bush is out of office.
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philosophie_en_rose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 08:25 AM
Response to Reply #9
47. Absolutely. It adds to the crime.
I sincerely hope that those children that survived are able to find some sense of healing. Plastering pictures of rape and exploitation (especially without their consent) is simply disgusting.

The fact that the crimes happened are everyone's business, but the pictures are not. We don't even publish the names of child victims in this country. How dare we even think about publishing actual pictures?

If anyone has a compelling reason to see the pictures, they can petition the court or access court records. Public distribution is not only distasteful. It's wrong.
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #47
76. glad you're in the minority here -- TRUTH will out
don't look if it offends you.
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TechBear_Seattle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 08:38 AM
Response to Reply #9
50. Germany, 1944. Would you release photos taken in concentration camps?
Or would you think the public doesn't need to see children being starved and exterminated?
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Jacobin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 08:45 AM
Response to Reply #9
52. And we don't need to see the horrors of Auschwitz
Because it was just too uncomfortable.
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 08:49 AM
Response to Reply #9
53. bull. Release the photos. We can take it. THEY can't.
The "victums" are long past "protection".

And the repukes have ALREADY used these pics as "child porn"...
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WHAT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #53
73. People can choose to look at the pics, or not...
but they must be made available. Pictures tend to enlarge the import of a story and some people can't understand things emotionally without a picture.

I can get it without a picture but some people can't. I've had an aversion for "live" video ever since I was a little kid and Evil Kenieval missed the Snake River canyon jump...never-the-less, graphic documentation is necessary for a lot of people for emotional truth.

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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 08:52 AM
Response to Reply #9
56. Yes, the public absolutely SHOULD see all the images. Forced.
Edited on Tue Oct-24-06 08:52 AM by TahitiNut
Why? Because the "public" is in charge ... and it's in our name and with our tax dollars that such abominations are enacted. I'm a big believer in having those responsible for such abominations being required to repeatedly witness the despicable acts undertaken under their authority. If I had my druthers, it'd be an essential part of the imprisonment of the members of this regime. I'd require that they undergo "aversion therapy" - forced to witness such abominations repeatedly.

Just as the citizens of Germany in neighboring towns were REQUIRED to view the atrocities of the concentration camps post-WW2, such viewing should be required here.

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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 08:59 AM
Response to Reply #9
58. That seems to be a very odd position.
Given your username.
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dave420 Donating Member (141 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #9
65. errr
If it's released to the public, no-one's going to force you to look at it. Sure, some sick fuck might "use" it, but then sick fucks use anything with kids on - should we ban any and all kids and representations of kids from public, or just try to tackle the problem of paedophilia? Blur the faces/genitals/whatever out, of course, as a courtesy to everyone involved and watching, but the pictures MUST see the light of day, as democracy relies on the populace being informed. Leaving shit up to the judge to decide is not a good way to run a country.

I thought we were all adults and capable of choosing what we look at... my bad :)
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ponthedge Donating Member (32 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #9
70. This is US...
We are the ones to blame. Do we really need to see the pics to 'know' what is on them? Do we think that will sway the crowd that truly believes in what we are doing? Will it really turn the truly sadistic? No.

This happened on our watch because we were not willing to do more than sit at a computer and type out our fear and disgust. Me? Give my life for justice? Give my life for peace? We know the answer...most of us, me included are not willing to put down the mouse and pick up the sword. We are satisfied with reading about it.

And that shall be our undoing...

When will it be time to take to the streets and lay down our lives for freedom from this tyranny? As long as we got McD's and the lattes from Starbucks and the latest CD from 'whoever' to help curb our twisted sense of what is important, I fear...NEVER.

We are to comfortable to fight, and they know it...we can squabble all we want about the pics and how they are going to change things and we will be continuing down the path of delusion. It will never change. We will always eat cake, before mud. Once we start eating mud, consistently and incessantly, then maybe, we will fight. Until then, sit back, type and let the fear and disgust overcome us...then read and type some more and let us vent our fears...

I cry for my own inability to fight this terror in our country the way it truly needs to be fought...I cry for my 6 year old boy who has to see the fact that his Father is not man enough to stand up to the tyranny that has befallen us all...I cry for all of us that will never know what it means to die for what is right and just...I cry because...I HATE CAKE!!!

I cry because I am an American and I forgot what cost freedom has...

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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #70
78. i hate cake too...
i feel you. all your points/fears here are valid. keyboard activism is appropriate in cultures that RESPOND to the words we type...

so ask yourself... what examples are there of the blogosphere actually changing things? are there any examples? are we any better off today than in the late 80s before the keyboard brigades? does our work here empower? do words have the ability to move history?

i think deep down inside YOU believe they do or else this wouldn't have been your first post. i think this might even be a CORE belief.

it's not just venting. we are a nation of laws. laws are words. right now the law is being hijacked -- so time to pull out the big guns -- PICTURES.

you're doing what you can. you have a mortgage to pay and a son to raise. we ELECT people to office to do THIS GRUNT WORK. it's not our job. OUR JOB is to apply pressure, and DU does that in spades.

so welcome. please stay a while, and don't lose hope.
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walldude Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #9
74. It has been reviewed by the courts, and Congress
and the Senate. Nothing has been done about it. While I have no desire to see these pictures I also have no desire to spend 2 more years under this administration.
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #9
75. you're wrong... these children need justice and they ain't
getting it from closed hearings and coverups.

and WE need justice. we need TRUTH. we need to see what's really being done in our name.

so i disagree in the strongest possible way.
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endarkenment Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #9
83. Wrong.
I recall a scene at the end of the wonderful 'Band of Brothers'. The 'good Germans' were taken to their local concentration camp and made to clean up the mess they claimed to know nothing about. We do not need to be shielded from our crimes we need to be confronted with the absolute irrefutable truth of what we have done.
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951-Riverside Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #9
92. We show pictures and video of people getting their heads sawed off
...so why not this?

I want them released and I don't give a damn what flawed argument some of you apologists, government stooges and conservatives throw out there. If you don't like what you see turn off your computer but dictate what myself and other see. I guess photos of dead children burned and mutilated up by bombs and bullets are A.O.K. :eyes:


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Gwerlain Donating Member (516 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #92
104. There are people who think...
that picture was the beginning of the end of the Viet Nam War. And some of them are well-qualified historians.

I think that establishes the point I wish to make with regard to pictures of the abuse at Abu Ghraib.

I heard a German speak about what had happened, after I had gained his trust enough that he believed I would hear him. He said, "Never again." We need to regret Abu Ghraib that much. Because it's just as atrocious.
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rpannier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #9
97. I might agree with you, but...
the only way to convince some members of the public that this really happened is to show them the proof.
After WW II most Germans denied that their government had set up concentration camps and murdered millions of people.
It was only after forcing them to walk through the camps and see the grisly remains that many people accepted what had happened.
Even then, some still continued to deny it.
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The Backlash Cometh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 09:45 PM
Response to Original message
10. !
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Subdivisions Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. .
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rubberducky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 09:52 PM
Response to Original message
17. IMHO this country should see these..............
Edited on Mon Oct-23-06 09:53 PM by rubberducky
pictures, if for no other reason, than to SEE the price the Iraqi people paid for this "war". Many sleeping people need to wake up to see what is going on in thier name. edit..... k&r
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Imagevision Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 10:00 PM
Response to Original message
19. These were the pics/video's Senators went into see and all came out with long
faces and no comments whatsoevr? those pics/video's?? - the ones they claimed were being done by Iraqi soldiers? those?
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 10:07 PM
Response to Original message
20. the nightmare that is Iraq...
will not be contained forever. What has been done, has ruined a country, destroyed a culture, and has permanently scarred the psyche's of millions. But lets not see any of those disturbing pictures. America has no soul.
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 10:16 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. But, America DOES have a soul. That's why the junta wants a gag
on news like this and definitely wants the proof of the horrors kept from America's view!

They claim releasing the photos would harm America's image? Fuck that! THEY ARE NOT AMERICA! They are only worried about their own image and trips to the Hague!

If they were really concerned with 'America's image' they wouldn't have started a war based on lies and more lies. They wouldn't have allowed rendition and torture, they wouldn't call Geneva 'quaint' and then go about a unilateral breaking with the tenants of that Convention.

They don't give a damn about America. They only wanna keep the robbery going as long as they can still carry money out the Treasury door. And the wanna cover their own ugly asses.
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. all too true...
but it's the ambivalent attitudes of posters here, towards these pictures that bothers me more than what the government does at this point. I expect no less from this government, but expect way more from my fellow human beings. With no media coverage, especially in Iraq, it seems to me anyone would want horrible things done to and by human beings ,to be not only shown, but plastered on every open space. Everyone involved in this horror, including the tax-payers who financed it, needs to see, understand, and learn from it. This is what war does.
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Straight Shooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 10:49 PM
Response to Original message
24. My tax $$, like all U.S. citizens', pay the enablers of these atrocities.
Edited on Mon Oct-23-06 10:49 PM by Straight Shooter
Release the photos and let the chips fall where they may. We didn't create this monstrosity, bush did.

The article is a year old, and it serves to remind us that justice delayed is justice denied.
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razors edge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 10:58 PM
Response to Original message
25. Wont they argue it a breach of national security
to release the office hard drive of Tom Foley?
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Disturbed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. Has anyone ever been named in an indicetment regarding
these rapes?
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razors edge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 11:50 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. Not that I'm aware, and from what i recall
any contractor of the US, is immune from prosecution anyway.
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Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #27
85. They're immune from prosecution in the Iraqi court system.
The agreement is that they'd be arrested, arraigned, and tried in US courts.

So yes, they're immune from prosecution; but no, they're not immune from prosecution.
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G Hawes Donating Member (440 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 01:10 AM
Response to Original message
29. That was a year ago or so, wasn't it?
Edited on Tue Oct-24-06 01:12 AM by G Hawes
I seem to remember reading about this a long time ago.

Not that that makes it any less reprehensible, of course, but I don't quite get how it's supposedly current.
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OneBlueSky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 01:25 AM
Response to Original message
30. I, for one, have absolutely no desire to see these photos . . .
but I know that I must . . . for the victims, for the perpetrators, for my country . . . and for myself . . .
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 01:26 AM
Response to Original message
31. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
wiley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 02:14 AM
Response to Reply #31
36. Just fucking grief. Nothing good about hiding this.
I agree. This is really mind boggling. Doesn't surprise me that Republicans would have a whole child rape and molestation ring cover-up in Congress.

How does a human being actually vote for a Republican. Do they believe that if you sodomize and torture children over there, that Republicans won't sodomize and torture them here. Maybe some Republican Congressperson ordered copies of these tapes made? At this point, with the unbelievable trash and hate slinging that Republicans are doing throughout the US, I have a very hard time seeing any Republican as a human being. I thought I would never say such a thing in my life, and I have to believe that it is because these people are unaware of the outrageous crimes being committed in their names.
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philosophie_en_rose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 08:37 AM
Response to Reply #31
49. Because it's not about us! It's about the victims.
Edited on Tue Oct-24-06 08:38 AM by philosophie_en_rose
If the victims want to share the photos (and I think it's fair to believe that they don't), then that is one thing. But it is entirely another thing to post pictures of a child's brutal rape for all the world to see.

We already know that the Bush administration is scum committing crimes in our name. We don't need to see pictures of children being raped to realize that it happened. And those that don't question Bush will not be swayed by the pictures.

This IS about the further exploitation of these children. Child 'pornography' is a separate crime from child rape. Anyone that publishes the photos is complicit in distributing it.

And digitally altering the original Abu Ghraib pictures hardly did anything to protect the identity of the victims. If these pictures are released, they damned well need to be blurred better than that.

You're assumptions are simplistic. I don't support Bush, his administration, his actions, or his illegal war. I couldn't give a rats ass about the effects of these photos upon America's reputation.

But you're forgetting that there are real children and real victims that are alive at this moment. You are ignoring the effects of these photos upon them. And they are so much more important than our reputation, the titillation of perverts, enquiring minds, or you.
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 08:56 AM
Response to Reply #49
57. Again, BULL.
The world NEEDS to see them precicesly BECAUSE of the reasons you stated.

The world NEEDS to see how corrupt and vile these REPUKES (not Democrats) are for their ILLEGAL REPUKE WAR OF CHOICE BASED ON LIES.

We need to make the word "republican" synonimous with "NAZI", like they are...
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19jet54 Donating Member (737 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #49
89. Good point but...
I agree with your compassion for the children and that distribution of those pictures is a crime, not to mention that the children will relive this over & over, but: If you require the alteration of the pictures, you leave the scum sucking criminals (CIA & DOD spooks) a way out. They will alter every photo to protect themselves, and destroy the originals using the law corruptly just like before. Therefore, if they photos are to be released, they must be unaltered with restriction on distribution of the pictures containing children somehow. The world need to know how evil these criminals are. German Jewish death camps showed the truth, and somehow gave the victims some measure of closure that the world knew that truth. It is brutal either way?
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Castleman Donating Member (166 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 01:28 AM
Response to Original message
32. They don't want us to see them because...
of the possibility of Mark Foley being in them....
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 02:03 AM
Response to Original message
34. I think oblivious people need to see them
Comfortable people,comfy in denial.

But for me, hell no. I ain't looking at those pictures because I was a child rape victim myself. I know the horror of that personally,and because I survived it and I am not in denial about it, or blaming myself for a bad adults choices,I do really feel awful about Iraq and I have no need of being retraumatized to feel compassion twords those tortured kids and hate twords the chain of command that thinks child rape is OK,in war or any other time.

All the perpretrators of crimes of torture NEED to have the mask of "national security" and"normalcy" ripped away from them,all the way up the "chain of command". They all need to be exposed,made accountable for the crimes, shamed, and locked up/killed.

But likewise there's alot of survivors who may not want to look at such pictures because of their own psychological injuries.Some might see them but not be ready to deal with the issues it stirs up and they could freakout from seeing it. I dunno. It can expose some heavy issues in people.

I myself,don't want to deal with a trigger that HUGE any time soon.. I think I might not be able to handle it psychologically either,and I suspect if those pictures wind up on TV alot of people's therapists would be really busy, and the ER psych admissions might get an influx of people..PSTD can do that to ya.

And you'd be surprised how many people in this country have faced all sorts of harrowing sadism in thier own homes ,domestic violence, rape, and child abuse and many people to survive,suppress it,deny it,bury it, or try to numb it all out of mind with addiction or distractions or are in therapy already and trying to cope.

These pictures will rip the scab off festering wounds that alot of people in this society be they a survivor, an enabler or bystanders ..They all want so desperately to believe trauma scars are not lurking inside them. These pictures could have a psychological impact and cause unpredictable reactions in many people. Just sayin'.
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wiley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 02:04 AM
Response to Original message
35. So those videotapes aren't already available on the Internet?
Who the fuck was taking them? Why? To share with their buddies? To sell them? To keep an official record of these acts? Why were boys being sodomized? People don't want the public to see them? I don't want anyone involved in these brutal acts to ever be near a child of any nationality.
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elehhhhna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 08:11 AM
Response to Reply #35
46. Video was probably commissioned by Foley. et. al.
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patrick t. cakes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 02:32 AM
Response to Original message
37. whats happening to us as a nation....
...torture, sodomizing children, rape and murder??
and people barely bat an eye.
it makes me sick, sad and ashamed.







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Daphne08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 04:59 AM
Response to Reply #37
41. I agree, and I am also very, very saddened. n/t
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dave420 Donating Member (141 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #37
66. Ummm
The US has been doing that since it started to exist - doing what suits the US without a second thought for the victims. It's not like it started to happen in '03, and before the US was a shining beacon of good...
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Joanne98 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #37
94. It's the Republican way!
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Hubert Flottz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 05:22 AM
Response to Original message
42. " The boys were sodomized with the cameras rolling."
I'll bet Foley and Denny boy loved that shit...and Rash Lamebowel prolly can't get enough of those "Frat Pranks"

I hope they come out before the election.

Foley can't hold a god damned candle to Rummy!
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magellan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 06:08 AM
Response to Original message
43. I'm sure Rummy said recently that only 5-6 women were detained
...at Abu Ghraib, and that no rapes had occurred. I wonder if he said that so adamantly in the belief that these photos and videos would never come out?

Whadda shame. And they were doing such a swell job of ignoring the court's initial ruling of a year ago, being the upstanding, law-abiding bunch they are....
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Joanne98 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #43
95. Red Cross said 50
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progressoid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 07:55 AM
Response to Original message
44. Well if a judge said so, we should see them in...oh...8 or 9 years.
if ever.
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elehhhhna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 08:11 AM
Response to Original message
45. Never before has a post on DU nauseated me. Until this one.
Engulfed by an overwhelming wave of shame.
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whistle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 08:27 AM
Response to Original message
48. Great idea since the Pentagon and Donald Rumsfeld have been
...sitting on these for over two years! Bastards :wtf:
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hedgehog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 08:42 AM
Response to Original message
51. Prison rape is an old American custom. We were just introducing
Iraq to all aspects of American democracy. No politician is brave enough to demand that we reform our prisons to ensure the safety of those we incarcerate, so on it goes. There are a lot of people here on DU who cheer prison rape on if they think the victim committed a sexual attack himself.
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Julius Civitatus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 09:01 AM
Response to Reply #51
59. A country is only as good as it treats its lowest members
That's an old saying that often comes to my mind. Any society is only as good as it behaves towards their least protected or disfavored, no matter how rich or prosperous that society could be.

By that standard, America has been going down the tubes for quite a while now, and I am afraid it will never be the same again.

Over the last 30 years or so (basically since the Republican hegemony that started with Reagan), America has become a country that does not care so much about the least within its realm: the poor, the disadvantaged, no national health insurance, no safety net, inhumane prison conditions akin to third-world countries, the way we treat the homeless, the elderly, the sick...

I said it a million times, and I'll say it again, but we are becoming like Brazil.
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 08:49 AM
Response to Original message
54. They do not need to be released for American soldiers to be
experiencing what they are already experiencing. People already know what happened. Proof in the pics may still make things worse over there, but they should be released.
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dogday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 08:51 AM
Response to Original message
55. What do you call U. S. rape rooms?
Rape rooms.....
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 09:11 AM
Response to Original message
60. Well, it's about time! 2 weeks before the election?
How convenient for the repukes. These will NOT come out before the election and by the time 2008 rolls around, it will all be forgotten.

Maybe KO will pick up on this story and at least get the information out there that there are Abu Ghraib CHILD RAPE tapes yet to be seen? AFTER the election, of course. :grr:
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brainshrub Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 09:12 AM
Response to Original message
61. These photos were supposed to be released years ago.
My guess is now they will have a date with a shredder - by accident of course.
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 09:16 AM
Response to Original message
62. Although the article is a year old, as bananas points out in post #23
(David Swanson has for some reason posted it on afterdowningstreet now), the question is why aren't the photos and recordings being use to prosecute people for rape and torture? Even Rumsfeld's comments seem to show that everyone agrees that they show crimes. But these incidents didn't come up in the prosecution of Graner and the others.

Salon did publish 279 photographs and 19 video clips in March 2006, and while they show abuse, they do nto appear to be the worst of the things described in the Editor and Publisher article. Maybe we don't need to see the actual photos ourselves; but they need to be publicly acknowledged as real, with the people concerned tried for the crimes. They shouldn't be some 'theoretical' photos that are just argued about in freedom of information cases; like the photos taken of a murder victim's body, you may not publish them, but the reality behind them must be confronted, publicly.
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kpete Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 09:19 AM
Response to Reply #62
63. Thank you
I was going to try to say the same thing - you did better than I could have...
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gulfbreeze Donating Member (128 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #62
69. I remember the judgement from a year ago
as well as new photos being released. But as you stated, none of the photos involving Seymore's claims ever appeared. Do you know if those were released? I understood the government was not going to appeal again.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #69
71. DOD is in the process of appealing a "new" June 20 order
to release remaining photographs.
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #71
77. Thanks - that's presumably the appeal mentioned
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gulfbreeze Donating Member (128 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #71
80. Thanks
I thought we had heard the last of it. Like the Foley emails, photos of reality should shock the unbelievers to the core of their being.
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AikidoSoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #62
87. "...they need to be publicly acknowledged as real,..."
THAT is the point -- and an excellent one at that.

If this is reported properly it means that these vague assertions that a few people heard about a year or so ago, will become VIVIDLY REAL to the public. At this point it is a vague item, a news snippet that appeared and disappeared as quickly. Most importantly, these crimes will put it in the forefront of public discussion at the same time of the Foley scandal, and the elections.

Look, the Repugs and their hypocritical followers only have so much deniability. Raping women with young children, and especially raping their young boy children, has the effect of putting the word "hypocrisy" into the word Republican. Outrage fatigue is overridden by such horrors -- there's plenty of room for outrage here.

The new agencies don't have to show the face of those raped (they can be redacted as another DU poster suggested), and neither does the full audio of the sounds (screams)need to be aired... but certainly enough of all of it to MAKE THIS INCIDENT REAL in the public mind. It must be accompanied by a true VERBAL description of what happened.

AND... maybe it would renew the focus on the alleged pedophile rings that were reported to operate under a protective shield in the capitol in Republican circles. Reports went on for about a week on this several months ago, and then abruptly shut down. If the light is focused on rape and torture of children, it might well trigger what is happening in Repug circles here in the U.S.

It's ugly -- but showing the face of evil is necessary. The victims names do not have to be known to the public, but their role in this might be viewed with a component of pragmatism -- their suffering will serve to shine a light on the crimes being committed so we can DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.

Besides throw up. :puke: :puke: :puke:
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Joanne98 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #62
96. Tuesday, October 24, 2006 IT IS NOT A YEAR OLD!
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #96
98. That's the date "davidswanson" submitted it to afterdowningstreet
but post #23 clearly shows the article dates from Sept 29th, 2005. He gave the link. It's just that afterdowningstreet has now put it up on their website, a year later. Note the 'copyright 2005' message at the bottom of the reproduction on afterdowningstreet. Look at post #71 and you'll see there was further movement in June of this year - after, in March 2006, Salon published some photos and video that we hadn't seen before, there were still at least 20 unpublished. The DoD appealed another decision telling them to release them, in June 2006.
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buddysmellgood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 12:06 PM
Response to Original message
79. Rapublicans. The party of child predators, rapists and torturers. They made
this happen.
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endarkenment Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 01:03 PM
Response to Original message
81. The ongoing stonewalling of the torture photos continues.
Edited on Tue Oct-24-06 01:03 PM by endarkenment
We rape children. This answers the question posed to those who use the 'ticking bomb' rationalization for torture; 'would you extend your sanction of torture to include torture or killing of innocents in order to coerce evidence?' with 'yes'.
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Der Blaue Engel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 01:04 PM
Response to Original message
82. I am ashamed to be an American
I'm so sickened by the atrocities of this administration, done in our name. I used to be proud to be an American.

Well, I AM proud to be a REAL American, and not a neo-Con fascist traitor like the scum in the White House. But the distinction around the world will not be visible. We are now all torturers, child rapists, and murderers.

Thanks, BushCo.

My heart is just sick over this. :cry:
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Joey Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 01:27 PM
Response to Original message
84. Limbaugh cant wait to see the tapes
Rush will take some oxycontin and have himself a real good time..................
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IWantAChange Donating Member (974 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 02:17 PM
Response to Original message
86. This will be in cement until after the mid-term elections......
or else the Repugs will lose control of both houses for sure.
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StrictlyRockers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #86
90. I am very ashamed to call myself an Amerikan. When my countrymen...
Edited on Tue Oct-24-06 04:49 PM by StrictlyRockers
advocate torture, rape, horrific abuses...what is left to me? Do I stay and fight for the political future of my country? Ot is it time to high tail it to Switzerland and fight for what is right from there? How bad does it have to get before I cannot conscionably live in a country which has sunk to such vile depths?

SR
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snot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 08:25 PM
Response to Original message
100. The victims' faces can be blurred out. nt
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snot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 08:27 PM
Response to Original message
101. "20 days to appeal"--I take it, 20 days to file an appeal and
who knows how much longer before all appeals have been exhausted and any order becomes final?
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Festivito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 08:52 PM
Response to Original message
102. Yawn. Wake me when the defiers are put in jail. /nt
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illinoisprogressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 09:05 PM
Response to Original message
103. It makes me sick
I wish these would come out before Nov. 7 and let the dumb americans who support this administration and it's torture policies, know just what kind of torture the US supports.
They think it's not really that bad, but, if they knew how could they justify supporting this? Personally, there is no excuse for any torture.
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meowomon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 11:17 PM
Response to Original message
105. The Psychopathy begins at the top...
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ms liberty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 11:23 PM
Response to Original message
106. Is this an updated article, or a reprint?
Edited on Tue Oct-24-06 11:29 PM by ms liberty
I wish this would get some publicity now, it might have some traction since the teflon's starting to wear off. It's an important story, and one we are going to have to face squarely. The whole world knows about this, except us, the stupid americans...the only way for us to wash the stains away is to accept it and vow never to let it happen again. Some upthread have said we shouldn't see these videos and photos, but I believe we must look and see what has been done in our names as Americans.

In WWII the American soldiers needed people to help cart and bury the bodies of dead Jews in the concentration camps, so they commandeered the local citizens - people who had turned a blind eye to what was going on. There is film of it, and the looks on the faces of the 'good german citizens' as they carry the emaciated remains is telling. Their denial stripped away, their certainty in their own unique superiority as a nation and people gone; their faces are portraits of guilt and remorse, and a sick horror, captured forever on celluloid for all of history to learn from. It was one way the german people faced what they had allowed to happen right under their own noses as they had gone about their lives blinded by an ideology not unlike what we have today.

Some of us didn't learn our history. Some of us voted them into office, or selected them for office.

The American people never would have signed on to torturing, raping, or sodomizing women and/or children. This administration took office promising to restore honor and integrity. Instead they have shamed and humiliated us, and caused substantial harm to us as a nation and a people. If shown these tapes and photographs, Americans everywhere, even diehard bushbots, would be horrified and outraged. No amount of lipstick - or high heels, or lace and perfume could dress up that pig.

They are the responsible parties and We the People have to make sure they're held responsible for what they've done. We have to pursue justice. Justice. If we don't, we're just as guilty as the torturers themselves.

edited: grammatical error
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mkb Donating Member (124 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-25-06 12:04 AM
Response to Original message
107. What Happens If You Go Away
    People looking for a colean kill will get no reward in
this life.  When people go to marry a policy with torture,
then they will get what they deserve.  Please do.
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Ezekiel in Exile Donating Member (34 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-25-06 03:41 AM
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108. They've unleashed a Monster.
The NeoCons have used 9/11 to unleash a Monster in America.
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