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splat@14 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 06:52 PM
Original message
Israel admits using phosphorus bombs during war in Lebanon..
A little old but I didn't see it posted before and thought it important to know. Chemical weapons, like torture, are never acceptable!
Splat


By Meron Rappaport, Haaretz Correspondent


Israel has acknowledged for the first time that it attacked Hezbollah targets during the second Lebanon war with phosphorus shells. White phosphorus causes very painful and often lethal chemical burns to those hit by it, and until recently Israel maintained that it only uses such bombs to mark targets or territory.

<snip>

Some experts believe that phosphorus munitions should be termed Chemical Weapons (CW) because of the way the weapons burn and attack the respiratory system. As a CW, phosphorus would become a clearly illegal weapon.
The International Red Cross is of the opinion that there should be a complete ban on phosphorus being used against human beings and the third protocol of the Geneva Convention on Conventional Weapons restricts the use of "incendiary weapons," with phosphorus considered to be one such weapon.


Israel and the United States are not signatories to the Third Protocol.

In November 2004 the U.S. Army used phosphorus munitions during an offensive in Faluja, Iraq. Burned bodies of civilians hit by the phosphorus munitions were shown by the press, and an international outcry against the practice followed.

Initially the U.S. denied that it had used phosphorus bombs against humans, but then acknowledged that during the assault targets that were neither civilian nor population concentrations were hit with such munitions. Israel also says that the use of "incendiary munitions are not in themselves illegal."

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/777549.html







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zreosumgame Donating Member (862 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 06:53 PM
Response to Original message
1. then they are criminals, no two ways about it
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splat@14 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #1
8. Agreed, Then the Bush is also.
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liberalhistorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #1
11. Yep, no way around
that now! I can't wait to hear the Israel-can-do-no-wrong crowd and their propagandistic spin. This is truly sickening and far beyond what I would expect of Israel; this just shatters my last illusion of them.
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Imagevision Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 06:56 PM
Response to Original message
2. yep! the same kind Bush used in fallujah...
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Ms. Clio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 06:58 PM
Response to Original message
3. it was posted here, then moved to the I/P Dungeon, where the truth
Edited on Mon Oct-23-06 06:58 PM by Ms. Clio
will be buried forever, and never mind that it has nothing to do with Palestine.
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Blackthorn Donating Member (675 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. But it has everything to do with Israel.
And I think that's the point.
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Ms. Clio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. If you have a point, I fail to see it
Not every thread about Israel gets moved to the Dungeon -- when people die of flu vaccines there, that doesn't get moved.
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Blackthorn Donating Member (675 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #6
16. Fair point. Just seems to be a standard on this board.
9/11 conspiracy and anti-Israel topics tend to end up kicked under rug and ignored.
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Ms. Clio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 09:32 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. that's quite accurate, in my experience
I'm quite surprised this thread is even still here.
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Blackthorn Donating Member (675 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #19
33. Well, it's hard to argue with "Israel admits" n/t
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liberalhistorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 07:04 PM
Response to Original message
5. This would explain, then, the strange injuries that
Lebanese doctors were reporting during and after the Israeli bombardment of Lebanon. Israel swore up, down and sideways that it had no idea what the doctors were talking about and had no clue as to what was causing the injuries. It doesn't surprise me that they lied about it at first.

Waiting for the Israel-can-never-do-any-wrong-those-civilians-musta-all-been-terra-ists-crowd in 3, 2, 1..........................
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Ms. Clio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. nope, they are just alerting on this thread right this minute
demanding that it disappear from the view of 99% of DUers.
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splat@14 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. I'd be real disappointed
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liberalhistorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. And I'd be really pissed off!
This is major news and if they can't handle it, tough damn shit. Israel isn't perfect and all-holy, as much as they desperately wish it were so. I'm very, very disappointed in them, frankly.
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Ms. Clio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. I'm afraid you will be
sorry :-(
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liberalhistorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. I see that our
Israel-is-always-right friends are still deafeningly silent. Maybe because there's really nothing left to defend?
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Ms. Clio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #13
21. oh, I've seen a couple of them trying to claim that it wasn't used
Edited on Mon Oct-23-06 09:35 PM by Ms. Clio
in civilian areas. Of course, all the civilians with WP burns tend to strongly indicate otherwise. But then, for those people, none of the Lebanese were really "civilians," anyway.
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liberalhistorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. Exactly, every time you tried to point
out that Israel was bombing and destroying civilian areas, you'd get that meme tossed back at you. They're all Hezbollah or Hez supporters or they didn't do anything to stop Hezbollah or they voted for the leaders who support Hezbollah, etc., etc., etc., blahblahblahblahblah. Never mind that individual civilians usually don't have that kind of control over things. Then there were the geniuses that said that everyone should have evacuated beforehand and it was their fault if they didn't. Yeah, right.
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Ms. Clio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. case in point
post #22
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 10:04 PM
Response to Reply #23
30. We bombed half
of france in ww2. Because thee were germans there. Killed civilians by the tens of thousands.

People forget, war is shitty and dirty. The purpose is to kill people.

That is not advocacy, both sides are killers, so pick yours or pick to abstain.
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Solo_in_MD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 10:39 PM
Response to Reply #5
36. No it does not
The injuries discussed and viewed (there were some pictures published at the time) were totally inconsistent with WP. The cause is still unknown and has lead to speculation about other weapons, some of it realistic, some for the tin foil hat crowd.
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The Stranger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 08:00 PM
Response to Original message
14. It was posted before but it was improperly moved to the I/P forum.
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liberalhistorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Hopefully, that won't happen
with THIS thread!
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Jcrowley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 08:50 PM
Response to Original message
17. Who were the companies
that supplied the weaponry? Were the weapons supplied by the same group who supplied those used by the US in Falluja? Where they the same weapons?

These are grave violations of the Geneva Convention. There's no getting around that. What one admits by refusing to sign on to a convention agreed to by the rest of the world is that you are above the rule of law.
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liberalhistorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 09:22 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. That's what is so upsetting,
that a country that claims to be so democratic and humane would do something like this and have no problem with it. And that there are actually people on here who would defend them.
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 09:39 PM
Response to Reply #17
22. WP
Is used to mark targets. If those targets happen to be enemy positions at high noon that is the way it is. Just like 25mm cannons are fired at the vehicles behind personnel.

Same as firing unguided rockets into Israel.

Just fyi..Not like this is an odd thing. War sucks, but using wp and gunship fire to kill soft targets is part of it. It is not cricket.

Better there was no war but it is silly to claim a chemical weapons use on a common occurrence.
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liberalhistorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. Oh, for Christ's sake, give me
a fucking break! Is there NO LIMIT to what Israel can do and get away with with you people? I don't recall such horrendous bombs being used against Israel. I don't recall Israeli victims with horrible chemical burns. I don't recall anywhere near the casualties and level of destruction in Israel as opposed to what they did to Lebanon. And "soft targets?" Is that what you people call residential areas, apartment buildings, downtown shopping centers, etc.? Fuck the civilians, they're all just "soft targets" anyway? And I can just imagine your reaction if WP had been dropped on Israel! According to you people, all Lebanese are Hezbollah or supporters, but all Israelis are innocent civilians. Please.
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Ms. Clio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. and do you know that in Israel, they count those suffering from "shock"
among the casualties?

How many more Lebanese casualties would be counted under those circumstances, I wonder?
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 09:52 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. Dead is dead
they blow up buses with suicide bombers, israel blows up civilians with 155mm. Put your emotions aside and think..

Bleeding out, suffocating, or being burned to death all suck, the end result is the same. Dead.

A soft target is a term used for people. Vehicles, tanks, etc hard targets. AH-64 apaches are designed to kill hard targets. WP kills soft targets. 155 comes in all types HE, cluster, chemical dispersing, etc.

If the enemy chooses to launch rockets from a civilian area it ceases to be civilian. Radar counter battery does not make that distinction.

There are no good guys in a war. Civilians die, been that way for thousands of years. Pick your side and back it.
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Ms. Clio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 09:56 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. Hezbollah is a militia and does not use suicide bombers
Edited on Mon Oct-23-06 09:58 PM by Ms. Clio
put your own emotions aside and do a little research.

On edit, using your reasoning, there are no civilians in Israel, either.
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. Unguided
rockets. They fired blindly, didn;t even try to hit military targets. Hezbolla was responsible for the death of 200+ marines (as well as french troops). With a FUCKING suicide mission.

The french bombed the Iranian republican guard.

No emotions. They chose to fight a war with a superior force, then complain when they got bombed.

Emotions, they are terrorist fucks , paid for by iran, who have it coming. Can't have it both ways, whine while getting bombed, then claim victory when bombing stops.. No territory gained. Victory.

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Ms. Clio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 10:04 PM
Response to Reply #29
32. And using WP on civilian targets is no different
Edited on Mon Oct-23-06 10:05 PM by Ms. Clio
no matter how you try to squirm and wriggle.

Hezbollah does not use suicide bombers in Israel. This is a fact. Deal with it.

Israel chose to invade Lebanon, then complained when they got rocketed. Unguided, guided, it would make no difference to the die-hard supporters, anyway.

They can't have it both ways, either.
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 10:28 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. Selective memory
whose cross border raid and kidnap started a war. Were are the soldiers, dead.

Hezbolla is iran, they are terrorists and have killed americans.

What difference would it make to you if israel ran a real war there. I mean 100% use of air power and arty? You would notice and care.

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Ms. Clio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 10:43 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. According to the first accounts, the soldiers were on Lebanese soil
Typical propaganda -- Hezbollah is not Iran, it's an indigenous militia that drove the Israelis out once before. They are not fighting for Iran, they are fighting for themselves.

Yes, I guess all those dead civilians should be grateful it wasn't a "real war."
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 10:52 PM
Response to Reply #37
40. Hizb'allah attacked first!
It is now trying to be rewritten, but even Hizb'allah admitted that they crossed into Israel and nabbed the soldiers! They are in fact backed by Iran and Syria. So, for someone who loves to claim that Israel is fighting for the US, I find it odd you'd now make the distinction that Hizb'allah is not fighting for Iran and Syria, by proxy.
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Jcrowley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 11:13 PM
Response to Reply #35
45. Indeed
Selective memory

The two soldiers were captured in Lebanese territory, in the area of Ata Al-Chaab close to the border.It all started, this latest conflict anyways, on July 12 when Israel troops were ambushed on Lebanon's side of the border with Israel. Hezbollah, which commands the Lebanese south, immediately seized on their crossing. They arrested two Israeli soldiers, killed eight Israelis and wounded over 20 in attacks inside Israeli territory.

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Solo_in_MD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 10:52 PM
Response to Reply #32
41. The rocket attacks had been going on for some time
and the Lebanese government did not stop them. Then there was the kidnappings. then Israel attacked. The chronology does matter (slightly).
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Ms. Clio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #41
43. No, the rocket attacks had not been going on for some time
Please provide a credible source -- not Wiki -- for that allegation.
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Solo_in_MD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. How about the BBC from June 2006?
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Solo_in_MD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 10:48 PM
Response to Reply #28
39. Wikipedia (and others) disagree with you
They are after all..."The Party of God"


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_bomb
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Ms. Clio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #39
42. Wikipedia is not a valid source, certainly not for topics like this
As Stephen Colbert noted, it's called "Wikiality," and no professional historian -- which I am -- would ever cite it.
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Jcrowley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 10:04 PM
Response to Reply #27
31. Well one certainly
wouldn't chose the side of the oppressor if one were of a liberal mindset. Nor would one condone or rationalize the use of whitey pete or cluster munitions. Would they?

Pretty tidy to launch those missiles from 10,000 feet.

It's less about "sides" (Us vs. Them?) than it is about water.
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #31
34. Like I said
one mans oppressor is another mans home. 10000 ft with a bomb or 100m with a rifle. Same effect. Life stops. Dead.

Nothing changed. It was about a cross border raid, that started a war. remember?

It is about the elections that brought palestinians into power that the world choose not to pay for (psst cold war is over, we dont give a fuck about you((europe)))

Cluster munitions, wp, lasers or a 308 round kill. Being blown into six pieces, burned to death, or having my chest punctured with a rifle round all suck. Both sides used cluster munitions.

Dead is dead.
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Solo_in_MD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 10:44 PM
Response to Reply #17
38. Manufacture of WP shells is fairly easy (by munitions standards)
Israel certainly has that ability in country.

WP use not inherently a war crime or violation of the Geneva Accords. The IDF claims it was within the rules but without more details a definitive conclusion is not possible, pro or con. Irregardless people can and will jump to any conclusion on it that fits their world view.

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 09:33 PM
Response to Original message
20. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
pinto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 11:17 PM
Response to Original message
46. Locking.
Much of this thread's has been hijacked with complaints about our policy of providing two specific forums - Israel/Palestine and September 11 - for discussion of some Middle East issues and speculative discussions about 9/11 and other current events that are subject to broad speculation, respectively.

We don't feel either of these forums are "dungeons". They're established for focused discussion among members interested in these issues.

As always, questions, comments and complaints can be sent privately to one of our Administrators:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/contact.html

Thanks.



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