anti-tobacco people: If I promise to never seek or accept medical treatment

[RB TexLa]

for any disease or condition related to my tobacco use, will any of you shut up about it? If I make certain no disease related to my smoking does anything to your health insurance costs? If I just suffer and die without costing you anything?

And don't say, "but you owe it to (insert whoever here) to live longer." I would have to consider you as selfish a piece of shit as I would if whoever you said I owed it to had said it.

Just asking, that's all.

[ixion]

1. great post

I'll second that.

[Phredicles]

2. How about if you promise to stop whining about what a poor, oppressed,

miserable existence you lead?

[RB TexLa]

3. I have a great life

did you just make that lie up?

[Sapphire Blue]

18. Why do you get on an anonymous internet forum to insult someone...

... that you know nothing about? Just what kind of existence do you lead? (Better watch out... your eyes might get stuck up there.)

[maxsolomon]

4. as long as you smoke out of the range of my lungs

but i'm not even anti-tobacco so who cares what i think

[MercutioATC]

5. I'll make the same offer...

..as long as every overweight person agrees to do the same.

...and we're leaving out those who don't exercise, don't seek out healthy methods of stress relief, drive recklesly, etc.




Let he who is without sin....

[Warren DeMontague]

6. Did someone tell you not to smoke?

Because, personally, as long as you're not lighting up in an enclosed, public space around me or my family, I could care less. It's your body and your choice. Enjoy.

[bluerum]

7. Ok. But don't exhale near me - or smoke in front of children. nt

[Beaverhausen]

8. Just promise not to smoke in public places

What is the problem? It isn't the fact that you smoke that bothers people. It is when you make others breath in that smoke.

why is this concept so hard for some smokers to get?

[valerief]

9. Quitting is GRRRRRRRREAT! Just sayin'. nt

[mondo joe]

10. I don't care if you smoke or not. I only care about exposure to

others. So long as you aren't exposing others, I don't care if you smoke all day and all night.

[hedgehog]

11. Too many different disagreements arise whenever one of these threads surfaces

Discussion 1: What rights does an adult have to control his/her own body by choosing to ingest harmful substances or any substance in harmful amounts?

Discussion 2: What is the responsibility society in addressing any consequences of how a person treats his/her body?

Discussion 3: How harmful is smoking?

Discussion 4: How harmful is exposure to second-hand smoke?

Discussion 5: When can someone object to exposure to second hand smoke,i.e. at a public accommodation, at work, outside, at home(say if one apartment balcony is adjacent to another) etc.?

Discussion 6: What is the importance of the smoking/non-smoking debate in light of other issues; air pollution from other sources, global warming, torture, war in Iraq etc.

Discussion 7: What level of courtesy is required when addressing the above disagreements?

Have I missed anything? The confusion of multiple issues in single threads ends up with people figuratively shouting at each other without listening.

[Warren DeMontague]

15. Those are good questions. Here are my answers:

#1: Total. If your body doesn't belong to you, who does it belong to? The church? The State? Now, that's predicated upon you not endangering anyone else, neglecting your kids, driving under the influence, etc. But those are crimes in their own right. An individual should have total and final say as to what choices they want to make with their own body; even "bad" choices.

#2: I happen to think trying to split the difference on what is "bad" or "harmful" behavior is a slippery slope and a never-ending game for society. Cheapest and sanest road is to adopt a SPHC system, accept that people are going to make bad choices, offer education and treatment to help them make better ones, and perhaps tax things like alcohol, drugs, cigarettes, and high fat foods with a plowing of that money into the collective health fund.

#3: Ask my dad. Oh, wait, you can't ask him, since he died of lung cancer.

#4: Harmful enough so that it is legitimate, in my mind, for states and municipalities to restrict smoking in indoor, public environments. Also harmful enough that you really shouldn't smoke around your kids, but I personally don't think it's the government's job to make sure you don't.

#5: Indoors. Public Places. Fortunately, in my state, that's not an issue, since smokers need to go outside.

#6: Not very. I wonder why these threads keep popping up. Probably because we like to fight about the issue.

#7: Civility in discourse is always appropriate.

[hedgehog]

41. I wasn't really looking for an answer to my questions, just trying

to suggest that there are so many arguments going on simultaneously around this general topic that there is more smoke than light.

[durrrty libby]

12. People often say smoking calms them down and lowers

stress.

You just blew that theory to hell

[RB TexLa]

13. I have no stress

[SlipperySlope]

14. Someone has a flawed premise

I don't understand your assertion about smoking and insurance costs.

Medical care for Smokers costs less than non-smokers, because they die faster and younger.

Add to that the fact the they take in less social security and have lower nursing home costs, and the premise of your whole post just fails to make sense to me.

[quickesst]

34. Can I jump in...

I'm a smoker who gets a complete checkup every year starting app. 15 years ago. On my first checkup, the doctor asked if I smoked. I told him yes, for the last forty years.(I'm 55 now) He then stated that my lungs were clear, and that my breathing tests were "phenomenol". Since that first checkup, my doctor has not mentioned my smoking, and the last fifteen years of checkups, including lung x-rays, have resulted in "Your bad cholesterol is a little high". Other than that, I'm in excellent shape. Now my question. Why do some people who smoke never die of cancer, live long, healthy lives, and why do people who have never smoked a day in their life get lung cancer? My long held belief is, if you are going to get cancer, nothing you do will change it. Some things may accelerate the process, but if you're susceptible, your just susceptible. If not, why haven't they performed studies of those who never get cancer, even smokers, and try to isolate what protects some and not others? These questions do not have anything to do with what I refer to as "good manners", such as not smoking in a situation that could be offensive to anyone else. I also believe you would have to spend about 250 solid hours in a smoke filled bar to absorb the equivalent of one cigarette by second-hand smoke. Not being proven wrong on my assertions, I continue to believe them. Thanks.
quickesst

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[RB TexLa]

17. No tantrum, just asking

[Beaverhausen]

19. I don't see you answering some of the posts here

that are answering you by saying go ahead and smoke, just don't smoke around other people.

Do you have any response to that?

[RB TexLa]

23. What is there to answer

I asked a question, some can answer yes or no, most people answer with more than that.

[Beaverhausen]

25. but you are only reponding to some

you obviously have no response when people point out that your entire premise is wrong.

[RB TexLa]

26. pretty common thing on DU

go through the threads

[Beaverhausen]

27. just as I thought

you are totally clueless about the issue.

[RB TexLa]

28. Hey, I made my promise

[Beaverhausen]

29. clueless

lets see you try to answer posts 4,6,7,8,10,21 and 22.

[RB TexLa]

31. What is there to answer, they were answering the question I asked

[gratuitous]

20. And how would you guarantee those things?

Just asking, that's all.

But of course you know that one person doesn't make all that much of a difference in an enormous health care cost like that associated with smoking. Tell you what, you guarantee me that neither you nor any other smoker will just die quietly and without medical attention, you got a deal.

Otherwise, as I've seen on other threads, I guess you'll just have to deal with it. Bummer, dude.

[RB TexLa]

24. By simply not doing them

[gratuitous]

30. Well, if you can't guarantee it for every smoker

I guess you'll just have to put up with it. Sorry.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

21. You can smoke crack for all I care.

Just don't smoke it around me.

[survivor999]

22. No, you can die whenever you want. Ok with me.

I just don't believe you'll refuse treatment when the cancer pops up: Like every living organism, you'll cling to whatever ray of hope you have to live another day.

[Swamp Rat]

32. And those who want to criminalize cigarette smokers should have to PAY

for smoker's prison maintenance AND court costs AND child support while tens of millions of parents are incarcerated.

Criminalizing cigarette smokers is FUCKING INSANE!!!!

[Rex]

33. I can't understand what all the hubbub is about.

I've smoked and now I don't smoke, but it doesn't bother me anymore then the exhaust I smell from the car or factory or whatever is in the air that day. Sometimes the dog farts. I can't get mad, I fart too. It's just a part of society; smoke, drink, belch, puke, what have you.

Smoking is as much a part of our society as drinking and we all know that ain't ever going away. Smoke away!

Don't bother me a bit.

[stepnw1f]

35. What is With all These "I'm a persecuted Smoker" Threads?

Seriously... smoke away already!

on Edit: Ahhhh.... I see:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Other news..... the World is falling apart today.....

[The Straight Story]

36. It's a control issue, so a hot button here

control of adults and how they choose to live their lives, especially when more than one agree to something. Ala - a bar owner wants to allow smoking, so do the patrons, but other adults tell em no.

[stepnw1f]

38. I'm Against Smoking Being Banned BTW

Adults can make up their own minds. I have just been witnessing a flurry of these threads in th last couple days. This issue has been beatin to a pulp.

[quinnox]

37. go ahead

make my day. lol

[Crunchy Frog]

39. Are people still on this smoking/non-smoking flamewar?

I don't care how long you live or how you choose to die, but I don't want to breathe your secondhand smoke.

[marions ghost]

40. actually it does bother me that

so many people will likely die from smoking, whether or not they choose to have the limited medical help that is available. I don't only just think of whether second-hand smoke affects me or not. I care that people often die from addictive substances. True, there's not much you can do about addictions, except give encouragement to those who have made the choice to try to quit. But I do still care about those who struggle with it and lose the game of roulette.

I watched my mother die a truly agonizing death from emphysema not long ago, which I knew she would do, when I was as young as 12. I knew she would die of it because I saw how addicted she was, how nobody got between her and her cigarettes. When she was dying she was so pathetically sorry she had not quit at 40, when her doctor told her she had emphysema. She was at the height of her career and full of life in every sense when her lungs began to freeze up. Even though she did quit smoking the condition was progressive. Knowing she was losing the battle, she wanted forgiveness from her children. I told her, "Mom, you were the victim of a legal substance that is as addictive as heroin. It's not a matter of forgiveness of you...it's whether we should forgive those who peddle these coffin nails."

I don't get in the way of smokers or give you any more problems or guilt because I know you don't need it. But I do feel sorry, I do grieve for those who die from it and will continue to die from it in large numbers. I grieve for all those who will die the agonizing way my mother did, choking on lung fluids and straining for every breath. As much as Mom loved to smoke, when she died she said it wasn't worth it. But I know that she couldn't have done it any differently. She was powerless against it. I accept that an alarming percentage of us will die from addictions. I don't care about what it does to insurance costs. I care about what it does to victims and their families.

[boolean]

42. Yeah, right.

I'd like to see you keep that promise.

I promise you'll break it.

[pinto]

43. Locking.

This topic's been run into the ground of late, from a number of angles. We need to limit it somewhat. Thanks.