Seymour Hersh called to say that He is looking/Ammo Dump

[truedelphi]

I got an early morning call from Hersh of the New Yorker who says that he is looking into the AMMO explosion of two weeks ago in Bagdad.

He will keep us posted as more info comes up

[spanone]

1. OOh this could get juicy.

[sabra]

2. wow, thanks for the update.

[acmavm]

3. Friggin' FANTASTIC. Hersh is on the job, now we'll get the

real story.

[wicket]

4. Holy crap!

Thanks for the update!

[Norquist Nemesis]

5. Any indications what peaked his interest? n/t

[elehhhhna]

44. The total news BLACKOUT, maybe?

[SaveOurDemocracy]

6. This should be interesting ...

What could be a legitimate reason for a 2 week news black-out?

Any ideas?

[Recursion]

18. Google news finds a lot

http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ned=us&q=forward+base...

[Subdivisions]

7. It's about f*cking time someone took this seriously...

I spent two whole days trying to assemble a compreshensive post on the incident and the net is literally scrubbed clean of everything except one article that several sources have.

There is other stuff, but DU has scrubbed both posts and links on the grounds that the sites cited were not credible.

[nashville_brook]

15. are there any DU threads left to link to?

[Holly_Hobby]

60. My posts about this were removed n/t

[fooj]

8. Excellent news...

He'll get some answers.

[saltpoint]

9. I don't have any idea what's going on with this story,

but I don't think you could do better than to have Si Hersh on the case.

[farmbo]

10. Forward Base Falcon was shelled last week... with disastrous consequences

Iraqi TV had live coverage of the secondary explosions which went on for the entire evening...including a rather nasty, ominous mushroom cloud (presumed to be conventional explosives).

It had all the makings of a military disaster, but the Pentagon states there were no casualties.

Some have suggested that casualties were in the hundreds, but are being suppressed owing to a certain event stateside on November 7.

[saltpoint]

12. Hi, farmbo. I was in the dark on this one. Thank you for

the update and summary.

On Hersh -- he's a real good man and a fine investigative reporter. If there's anything to be discovered, I think he'll find it.

Let's hope to get the truth on this one soon.

[wicket]

25. It was really weird

It was really weird, all the cable news networks were covering the explosion and then it was completely blacked out in the press as if it never happened.

[hwmnbn]

16. I've watched the video.....

and there were continuous explosions until BAM!! a humongous explosion.

The military said there were no casualties.

If it was such a large ammo depot in the middle of Baghdad, there must've been guards posted 24-7.

No way they could have survived those blasts. Somebody died!!

[buddysmellgood]

59. I'm not saying no one was killed, but doesn't it seem improbable that guards

would continue to hang around as pile of ammo burned? Wouldn't they pull back to a safe distance?

[TexasLawyer]

121. No "REPORTED" casualties

That's how it was worded in most of the MSM articles.

[krkaufman]

32. Hmmm..... Now you have me wondering if this event ....

... relates to Bush's willingness to reference the Tet Offensive. If the Falcon incident was as bad as described in your post, it would certainly have parallels to Tet.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

52. "Some have suggested.."???

That sounds a lot like the right-wing bullshit "Some people say..." that the talking heads are always spewing.

Military casualties don't go unnoticed. Military families of a given unit will be living together on whatever base is home to the unit in question. You can't hide military deaths, as has been explained many, many, many times by the very patient people from icasualties.org, who appear to have abandoned this forum due to being harassed for rubbishing the conspiracy theories of tens of thousands of US troops killed in Iraq.

[LynnTheDem]

127. Not abandoned.

Still here.

That any DUer would EVER read, let alone believe, the crap from TBR amazes me.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

135. Hey cool, I forgot you were with icasualties.

Explains why you're so level-headed. It's great work that you're doing.

[halobeam]

150. You can't hide the deaths, but you can hide the details of them.

just look up the HMT ROHNA.... forty years later, family members found out the ship was struck by German misile. Over ONE THOUSAND of our men died Nov. 23, 1946 and the families didn't get the specifics for DECADES, because we didn't want anyone to know the Germans had that particular misile.

Why would it be different now? We learned it was wrong to do that? NO WAY. Same sh** different war.

By the way, the survivors were threatened with court martial if they spoke up. They came home, and when some did tell their families of this TRAGEDY, some of the families labeled the survivors "nuts", just cause it would've been REPORTED IF IT REALLY HAPPENED.

Rohna has a survivors site, REALLY... go visit it. The first hand account stories are chilling. My great uncle died on the ROHNA. His mother, father and brother all died without knowing what really happened to him.

[LynnTheDem]

158. The families knew their loved ones hadn't been heard from.

Do you really think we would sit quiet and say nothing if our soldiers hadn't been heard from after 2 weeks? 2 months? 2 years?

Trust me, you'd have heard the screaming.

The world would hear the screaming.

TBR started this bullshit and TBR is even lower scum than that freeper site.

And wanting to believe the worst of bush is fine; I do, myself. But the fact is, bush cannot hide US troop deaths, as much as I am sure he would love to.

[truedelphi]

166. I am sorry to hear of the circumstances of your uncle's death

It's chilling.

I have never heard of this - it would make a great book! Have you thought about writing it out?
Do you need a co-writer?

PM if you want to discuss that.

[halobeam]

169. There is a book out... The Forgotten Tragedy by Carlton Jackson

The first edition is out of print and the publisher owned the name... so when more people wanted the book (after hearing about it so many years later), the second edition came out "Allied Secrets"..same author, with a note since the first edition was written.

I found a copy of the first edition ($$$).. and signed by the author and some survivors that attended the memorial that was finally put up in USA... (Alabama, I believe). There is a "Wall of the missing" in Tunesia, Africa.

I gave the books (both editions) to my Dad for his birthday. He was very close in age and in life, to his uncle.

[Nabia2004]

173. H.M.T. Rohna - Nov 26, 1943

Your numbers were jumbled.

Thank you for mentioning this.

http://www.rohna.org/

[aquart]

107. We were given a list of 300 names this morning.

Supposedly the names of the wounded.

[LunaC]

95. Here's the video of the ammo dump explosion

http://piglipstick.blogspot.com/2006/10/news-blackout-o...

About 4 minutes into the clip, the screen is filled with a jolting bright flash followed by a mushroom cloud. It was so stunning I had to watch it several times. With the media's love of dramatics and the total lack of coverage, there's obviously a pre-election news blackout on this event.

[saltpoint]

101. 'Appreciate the link. All I can say is that I'm embarrassed to be so

out of it. I read through the thread here, and there are many others right on top of this story.

[Delphinus]

103. Holy crap!

That was a massive explosion - but the reporter didn't seem to lose it at all! Generally, here in the states anyway, if reporters saw something like that, live on the air, you'd be able to hear something in their voice. I didn't hear his voice waver or get excited. Makes me even more curious.

[Zhade]

120. Woah. That was HUGE.

What are they hiding?

[TheWraith]

132. I wouldn't exactly call it a "news blackout."

Was I the only person who saw this footage on practically every news program for 36 hours after it happened? It doesn't strike me as that odd that the media has moved on. Without something to keep them there, they're always looking for new material, and the eye candy of the explosions doesn't do much to offset that.

[The Count]

11. So, was it a "national security event" then?

We know that the pentagon admitted it lost bagdad after that - but only because we read the Guardian

[solara]

13. I have seen a couple of posts with a list of 300 casualties n/t

[elehhhhna]

40. that list has been debunked...but who knows? I trust SY. Let's wait & see.

[krkaufman]

33. I'm also wondering, as I just posted above, if this event ...

... was what led Bush to his acceptance of the Tet Offensive comparison.

[applegrove]

14. Let us hope it is not true.

[krkaufman]

34. Indeed. n/t

[Flirtus]

17. is the utube video of Foward Base Falcon?

view the file here (titled Baghdad Ammo Dump):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlM3BDojdLo&eurl=

the four minute mark - watch

[trumad]

19. It's like 5 MOABs going off at once...and no casualties? Yeah right.

[MnFats]

108. i believe the shock wave alone would have caused massive casualties

to anybody within a quarter mile.
plus there appeared to be debris raining down everywhere... after the huge explosion, you can see an object, maybe some concrete slab, that looks like its twice the size of a box car falling back to earth...

[seemslikeadream]

24. Two more videos

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ps0v1bIFup4

http://www.cyberspaceorbit.com/

[leftchick]

27. thanks

I had not seen the sencond link. That is pretty bad.

[eppur_se_muova]

28. Suggesting "tactical nuke" is irresponsible. Nonsense. Blather. nt

[jokerman93]

48. man-packable

Man-packable tactical nukes have been in the development pipeline for some years now. Given DOD's documented chronic use of experimental high-tech weaponry, why would it be irresponsible nonsense to consider the possibility that a cache of one or more test devices might be housed somewhere on the base? Lacking reliable information I don't have an opinion either way, but with this crowd nothing should be off the table.

J

[eppur_se_muova]

56. Because there's no evidence for it, and it was WAY TOO SMALL an explosion.

You can make the bomb as compact as you want, but there's still going to be the matter of critical mass. You can't make the explosion smaller than a critical mass explosion.

One person viewing the tape said it might be on the order of 30,000 pounds of HE. I won't assume any great accuracy to that, but that's only 15 TONS. Even a small nuke is in the multi-KILOTON (1,000 ton range) range, or several hundred times bigger. Even a backpack nuke would flatten most of a city.

As for the "mushroom cloud", any sufficient large explosion will do this. It's just hot gases boiling upward, carrying lots of dust. Nukes make a particularly impressive mushroom because the center of a nuke hits MILLIONS of degrees, vs only thousands for HE. Watch the video -- this "mushroom" dissipates in a hurry. A big bang, but nothing compared to a nuke. (Most of the comments on the video say the same thing, FWIW.)

(Backpack nukes "in the pipeline"? I don't doubt that they exist already. That's not the issue, it's the EVIDENCE.)

[jokerman93]

73. I agree there's no evidence

At this point it would probably be a simple matter of sending in an NBC team with a rad detector to make a determination if some kind of nuclear event has occurred. What I've read about the man-packables (and this was several years ago) is that the blast is more limited and wouldn't "flatten most of a city". On the other hand, I don't have the science you do, and what you're saying about critical mass sounds reasonable enough on the surface of it. Guess we'll just have to see what shakes out as time goes on.

J

[lovuian]

185. I have heard of Dirty Bombs Bombs with nuclear material

do they explode like any other bomb if with massive explosives
Anybody see a dirty bomb and its results???
We know of the Weapons builders infatuation with depleted uranium

wouldn't a packable or dirty bomb make sense next

uranium is a great penetrator and I bet that bomb was made for Iran just that the Insurgents knew beforehand...

Just theories

[BrotherBuzz]

189. Man-packable nukes have been DEPLOYED by the US since 1954

First the Davy Crockett (artillery warhead), than the MK54 (SADM), the mother of all tactical land mines. They are small (.1 to 1KT dial-a-blast) but thew world would know almost instantaneously of an above ground nuclear explosion.

[madokie]

30. both the same video

just different formats

[Imagevision]

20. Pentagon reported no casualties, which doesn't mean there was none?!!

[elehhhhna]

45. Let's remane it the Pentacle and fuckin get it over with

[goforit]

77. perfect for the group of psychopaths residing in it.

[Tom Joad]

21. I don't think there is much to this story, except that the Iraqi resistance hit

an ammo dump, and continues, despite extreme retaliation from u.s. military, to do everything in its power to end the illegal US occupation in Iraq.

The story that 650,000+ Iraqis have died in this war that was initially supported by most of Congress, including a good number of so-called Democrats, is the shame of the United States. The fact that the Democratic leadership refuses to end the funding for this crime against humanity... that should be the topic of a major post, not a single attack on an ammo dump.

[truedelphi]

114. Ah but PLEASE think about the repurcussions

Almost simultaneous with this event like a day or two later, the journalists and
photo journalists in Iraq underwent yet another bloody gauntlet, with reporters being
killed and kidnapped for several days running.

To shut them up perhaps?

Now Bush wants out of Iraq -because maybe we cannot stay where we don't have ammunition.

[democrank]

22. This is very good news.

Hersh is like a pit bull once he gets hold of a good story. Thanks for posting this.

[TexasLawyer]

122. Sy Hersh has a LOT of contacts

in the military and in intelligence.

He probably has heard a thing or two from people who think the world needs to be told about Camp Falcon (sooner rather than later, since what happened is bound to come out eventually).

[Atman]

23. Something HUGE happened

Not a single word about this massive explosion after it happened...except suddenly even the White House says maybe things aren't going so well, and maybe it's time to talk about leaving.

Something happened. Something serious. I've heard reports of up to 300 soldiers killed. They're doing everything possible to keep the lid on this until after the election.

.

[madokie]

31. I think that could be taken to the bank

[malaise]

42. I believe that also

I'll wait for Hersh's findings.

[theHandpuppet]

142. The longer the silence...

... the greater my skepticism. Even if no one was killed, how could a massive ammo dump explosion such as that -- located within a military encampment -- INJURE NO ONE? Was there no shrapnel? No phosphorous? No concussion injuries? Was no one even close enough to this massive explosion to receive a scratch? And let's not even bring the matter of depleted uranium into this -- a cloud of du must have settled on Camp Falcon like a smothering blanket.

So far I've avoided speculating about what really happened, but the silence on the part of our govt and military has become deafening.
You would think that if nothing else some member of the military based at Camp Falcon would have said something to a family member. Weird.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

57. Uh huh.

So... none of the families of these 300 soldiers who were supposedly killed bothered to notice that all communcation with their loved ones had suddenly ceased?

An ammo dump went up. Big explosion, BOOM! It happens. The military KNOWS it happens, which is why they design ammo dumps not to kill people if they go off. You keep talking about this "media blackout." Well, what exactly do you want them to report? An ammo dump got hit, it went boom as ammo dumps often do when they are shelled. The fact that ammo dumps go boom when they are shelled is well known to military planners, and thus they do everything in their power to KEEP EVERYONE THE FUCK AWAY FROM THEM so they don't die when they go boom.

[Name removed]

63. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

102. We may have a shortage of bushco apologists...

...but we have no shortage of paranoid dementia.

[LynnTheDem]

128. And am I, as a member of the Iraq Coalition Casualty Count, calling

the "300 casualties" list a pack of same ol same ol bullshit from TBR with my husband currently Iraqmired also a "bushCo apologist"?

And we laugh at how easliy the motherfucking rightwingnuts believe total trash...

[moodforaday]

76. How would we know what their families think?

So... none of the families of these 300 soldiers who were supposedly killed bothered to notice that all communcation with their loved ones had suddenly ceased?

How would we know if their families did or didn't notice? Just askin', since I don't see how we could know that, until it breaks into MSM.

On the other hand, Google News doesn't have a whole lot, except for one article from a Turkish source, a few other Arabic outlets and Indymedia. Since I'm not ready to believe Google newsfeed gets manually scrubbed by the US government - yet! - it seems to me that maybe the story is a hoax, after all. I sure hope it is.

[onenote]

87. families of personnel stationed together are in pretty close communication

If a bunch of them suddenly weren't hearing anything, they'd be asking questions and word would get out.

[BelgianMadCow]

149. The proof is in the MASSIVE silence that ensued, indeed

[TheWraith]

26. Not this again.

With regard to the reports of 300 casualties--kindly remember people that that comes from one of those screwball websites like Jihad Unspun, where every day they claim that 20-something US troops have been killed. It's a completely unreliable number, like taking the Pentagon estimates of Iraqi civilian casualties.

Second, ammunition dumps are deliberately located well away from populated areas, and are designed such that in the event of a fire or explosion (be it accidental or intentional) the dump can blow up safely, without killing anyone.

As for guards--when you're standing guard over some thousands of pounds of ammunition and explosives, you'd better run like hell the split second that you hear incoming fire.

If Hersh is really looking into this--and I'm not terribly convinced--it's more likely about the bogus Pentagon claim that FOB Falcon's operations wouldn't be impeded by the loss of the ammo dump. (Other sources have suggested that the camp would be effectively out of operation for the 2-3 weeks it would take to replenish its stores.)

[NJCher]

29. did you see the film clip and read the story?

Just curious.




Cher

[TheWraith]

36. Yep.

Everything I said stands. They don't just haphazardly build an ammo dump, they put a LOT of thought into what happens if the sucker takes a hit. For instance, one of the articles that's been linked to refers to the attack as having "completely destroyed" FOB Falcon, leaving it a "wasteland with no buildings," which is clearly false given that photos showing the extent of the damage were taken the next day.

As for the speculations about a nuclear blast, that's just silly. There's a good rule of thumb about nuclear weapons: if there's any doubt at all that it's a nuclear blast, then it isn't. The mushroom cloud from the Hiroshima bomb was over 40 miles high, and that was a fairly small nuke by modern standards. More to the point, a nuclear bomb doesn't go supercritical by being burned.

[requiem99]

39. However you are incorrect about the mushroom cloud.

The mushroom cloud in the picture was consistent with a small tactical warhead (maybe 5kt or under, small tactical nukes barely leave any mushroom cloud at all), but was probably just a whole bunch of HE going up. Why the HELL would they keep nukes in an ammo dump in Iraq? Use your heads people.

[Dems Will Win]

53. I agree with the Wraith. This was not a tactical nuke

There are no reports of radiation, altho that could be covered up I guess in a war zone.

The point of this story is that $100 million worth of ammo was blown up by two Katyusha rockets totalling $300. The Iraqi Army of Islam can do this whenever they want.

No ammod dump is safe and it's a hell of a way to burn money.

I would not be surprised to hear that Hersch finds more than zero dead however.

[mhatrw]

35. So you think there were ZERO casualties?

Nothing to see here, folks?

[onenote]

41. that's what I think. You have any proof to the contrary?

Members of the US armed forces in iraq are in regular contact with their families via email, phone etc. Its completely different than anything we've ever experienced. If 300 members of the military -- dozens from the same unit stationed at the same stateside base -- had been killed nearly two weeks ago it wouldn't be a secret.

I don't even see any conspiracy in the alleged "news blackout" -- how long did it take the media to move on after the mess hall attack that killed nearly 2 dozen soldiers -- a day or two?

Here, the explosion was reported, the absence of casualties was reported. Its no big surprise that the media moved on.

Maybe there is more of a story, but for those that think there is some big cover up, do you really think that the media wouldn't be reporting that there is a story that they want to cover but they are being prevented from doing so? The same media that is being criticized for showing video of Iraqi snipers shooting at US service personnel? It just doesn't make sense to assume that they are lapdogs one minute and willing to stand up to the admin the next.

[requiem99]

43. Exactly. Its sad how many people here bought so easily into coverup

[qanda]

47. I'm usually the first to don my tinfoil hat

And I don't think there would be any way to conceal a large amount of casualities-- not in this current political climate. Someone would be asking what happened to their loved one. If I'm wrong, I'll be the first to admit it but I sincerely hope I'm right.

[Atman]

67. I've never been in the service. Is it unusual for...

...a soldier to go a couple of weeks without writing home? When guys are on the front lines, do they have access to e-mail? When they're sent out on a mission, do they really keep in close contact with Mom? Could't IP addresses give away positions? Are soldiers REALLY sitting in their bunkers waiting for a good wifi signal so they can write home? Just askin.

[LynnTheDem]

129. My husband emails me 3-4 times a week.

From Iraq.

Where he's Iraqmired for the 2nd time.

Yes they call and/or email at least weekly.

Yes we would know if we suddenly had no communication from them for 2 weeks.

Yes you'd have heard about it.

[TheWraith]

133. It would be noticible.

"...a soldier to go a couple of weeks without writing home?"

Maybe not unusual in the past, but these days with email, it's incredibly easy to stay in contact.

"When guys are on the front lines, do they have access to e-mail?"

With Forward Ops bases, there really aren't any "front lines." Obviously, they wouldn't be writing emails while they're out on patrol, but patrols don't usually last more than a day. Any any base of any significance would have at least a few computers, not to mention the ones that belong to the troops themselves.

"Could't IP addresses give away positions?"

No. An IP address can usually be localized to a city, but almost never any finer than that without network administrator access. And in any event, how would insurgents get ahold of IP addresses? And why would they care? There are easier ways to find out where the Americans are. Like, look for the big honking bases.

[Atman]

136. Thanks

To Lynn, too. Good info. I have to admit, though, I am very still very skeptical, only because I have been trained to be by the Liar In Chief. I'm trying to think of one major breaking story out of Iraq (or the US, for that matter) that didn't turn out to be a total crock of shit three weeks later. From the tumbling statue of Saddam to Pat Tillman to the plastic turkey...the truth is a foreign concept to these clowns. You have to admit, the virtual scrubbing of the story combined with some very large explosions -- the news video was from miles away yet still it blew out the exposure on the camera, and the guy in the home made video is clearly heard to be saying "it'd be a miracle if no one's been hurt" -- happening so close to the most pivitol and crucial election in our history, well. Common sense tells me this is NOT the time the Boys From BushCo do some soul searching and decide to come clean. And finally, I agree that an IP address is a pretty clumsy way to find a target, but hey...we almost sent Geraldo to Gitmo for scribbling in the sand!

Again, thanks to both of you Wraith and Lynn. I hope your so's come home safely and soon.

.

[Junkdrawer]

69. What caught my eye was the sharp rise in military casualties AFTER...

the incident.

I'm sure Hersh noticed that too...

[Atman]

71. They had to have SOMETHING to tell the families

Many of the other posters on this thread seem to think that mom and dad had a direct-connect to Sonny in the field. If Sonny didn't e-mail today, Mom and Dad would notice. Bull fucking shit. You get sent out on a mission, and they make sure your un-armored Humveee has wifi? So, you sit on it, keep it quiet, get the paperwork in order, and Mom and Dad's son can die a hero in any of a number of locations in Iraq. But certainly not as a result of the "enemy" actually surprising us. That NEVER happens in war. Nope. Never. We're the United States. Only good things happen to our soldiers, in heroic ways. Those evil doers could never surprise us like that, right?

Right?

.

[Ms. Clio]

125. yes, exactly

just what I was thinking, but you said it ever so much better. I am reminded of all the lies the Pentagon spun about Jessica Lynch and her heroic resistance, firing her gun until it was empty and fighting to the bitter end, etc. And all of it complete and utter crap. I'm willing to wait for more info., but I certainly don't put anything past these inveterate, incurable liars.

[Canuckistanian]

105. Exactly. Notice that there are never precise details of times of death?

Of course, it's for "security purposes".

I would wager that there were about 20 deaths and they're only releasing about 2 per day.

[truedelphi]

167. Are they not releasing times of death?

When I was still reading ms media (SF ChroniclE) the daily death update would be something like PFC Larry Hendrin, 24, First Battalion, Memphis, killed on afternoon patrol in Tikrit when IED occurred.

Quite a few of these - Name Rank Company served with - reported dead when bunkmates failed to revive at dawn- What is that about - pesticide poisoniong - DU poisoning?

Their ages are always given - so why are 23 year olds failing to wake up in the morning? What was killing them?

[Joe Chi Minh]

139. One thing is for sure: there will be zero remains of a number of US

troops guarding the place. Vaporized.

[aquart]

109. Thank you for your concern.

Please list the number of things about which this administration has been truthful.

[mhatrw]

62. It's one of the biggest explosions in the history of the war in a

"safe" green zone encampment with over 5,000 troops.

Somebody at least got hurt. That would be the default expectation. The fact that nobody died would be a miracle. Do you believe in miracles?

[onenote]

68. I believe that the explosions occurred over a fairly long period of time

and that the military has plans in place to ensure that personnel evacuate to hardened facilities when munitions storage facilities are compromised and that large numbers of personnel are not generally in close proximity to such facilities at night (the hit on Camp Falcon occurred at approx 10:40 pm). So I don't think it would take a miracle for no one to be killed.

[mhatrw]

80. Suppose 300 people died there.

Do you really think we'd be hearing all about it?

Or would they simply try to hid the numbers in the 120+ deaths now projected for October?

If I were in military PR, I'd be trying my damnedest to keep the lid on any such event, no matter what caused it -- US mistake or lucky insurgent attack. And if I were a military commander, you can bet that nobody under my command would be leaking any such info without my direct approval.

[onenote]

86. how do you "hide" 300 in 120

Or in this case, 300 in around 30, since that's the number identified as KIA in and around Baghdad since October 11.

[mhatrw]

88. You tell any families in constant contact that their kid was one of the 30.

[aquart]

111. Because everything about this war has been planned well

with optimum concern for the safety of our soldiers. Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiigght.

[Atman]

64. POLLYANNA has entered the building!

LOL! Yes, the military is providing all the embedded Hotel Rashid dwellers complete and accurate information about what is going on in the rest of Iraq. Notice how your daily news briefings never tell you how many soldiers were killed in IRAQ today? Only how many were killed in BAGHDAD. We're Americans...intellectually lazy and sometimes downright stupid. Stupid when we believe anything at all that this fascist administration tells us.

WTF? Do you REALLY believe reporters have access to ANYTHING over there? You sound as if you belong in the fifties, when people genuinely believed the government always told us the truth, and always had our best interests at heart. Wake up, dude! This fucking administration can't even fess up to the size of Bush's perch...you think they're going to be forthcoming with you about a massive failure of their strategery three weeks before the most pivital election in our history? Ward, I think you need a talk with the Beaver.

.

[onenote]

70. Don't know what "daily news briefings" you read,

but the one's I see do not limit themselves to discussing how many soldiers were killed in Baghdad. For example, here's one from today: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/20...

It discusses both the KIA in and around Baghdad and KIA in Anbar.

So here's my question to you: do you think 300 soldiers were killed two weeks ago in a single event and its been kept a secret?

[Atman]

75. Oh! So we got Baghdad AND Anbar.

How many other areas of Iraq are we in?

Do the math. The number of casualties does not add up to the two or three a day casualties they're reporting. Go on, I'll wait...find a number for casualties in ALL OF IRAQ, not just Anbar Province or Baghdad. When was the last time you heard any news report about the "number of soldiers killed in Iraq today?" You don't. They know Americans are stupid, and will hear "Baghdad" and their minds will process "Iraq." But that ain't the case. Find me tallies of soldiers killed in IRAQ today, not just a province and a city. Iraq is a COUNTRY, and a pretty good sized one at that.

.

[onenote]

85. so you don't think this is accurate?

http://icasualties.org/oif/prdDetails.aspx?hndRef=10-20...


So you think that, for example, on October 21, in addition to the soldiers that are listed as KIA in Anbar and Salah ad Din provinces, that lots of additional soldiers were killed in other parts of Iraq and that none are being disclosed? The numbers on the linked website conform with the reports of the number KIA this month and identify where the casualities occurred. What exactly is being hidden?

[Atman]

91. What is being hidden...

...is the reason for your apparent desire to discount the Bush administration's horrendously failed invasion of Iraq. They've never told the truth about anything, including the reason for being there in the first place. But, oh...how many people the CIC has sent to their deaths (two weeks before the election)? Sure. They'll be honest about that one.

.

[onenote]

97. I'm not hiding a damn thing

This administration lied us into this war and has lied constantly ever since. But not ever single thing that they say is a lie. And when we start making ridiculous claims (like the claim that I recently saw here on DU that the actual number of US KIA in Iraq is really 15,000) we undermine the most important weapon we have: our credibility.

Y'know, back in July when the number of casualties dropped, a bunch of DUers were speculating that the number of casualties was declining because the military was being sequestered in their bunkers to avoid a spike in casualties before the elections and that it would staty that way through November. But in fact the number of casualties has increased every month since July -- and by a considerable margin. If the numbers are so easily manipulated, why is this happening?

And nice job avoiding my question; I expected nothing less.

[Atman]

116. Well, you didn't tell me the govt posted numbers on a web site!

Obviously, that changes everything. They didn't just REPORT the numbers, they POSTED THEM!

Your logic is so flawed, I don't know where to begin. Don't lump me into your group of "bunch of DUers." I'm not one of them. Why not just write "some say a brazillion people were killed!" I mean, SOME say it! I just did, or at least I typed it. So now you can accurately write that "SOME DUers SAY a brazillion DUers died!"

Or maybe you can start by reading the story on MY web site (linked below) regarding Bush scrapping Air Force One in favor of submarines. I mean, it's on the web. It must be true!

.

[onenote]

118. You're funny!

Really. I got a good chuckle from your post.

One thing, though. I didn't lump you in with the posters that suggest that there are thousands more casualties than are being reported, you did. BTW,the website I linked wasn't a government website, but since you're the allknowing one, I'm sure you'll tell me that it secretly is!

[truedelphi]

151. When the claim was made that the death rate

was five times as high -- was that stated as fact or speculation?
<<the claim that I recently saw here on DU that the actual number of US KIA in Iraq is really 15,000)
My understanding of the concern surrounding an *idea* that there have been fifteen thousand service men and women killed in Iraq is that *supposedly* a severely injured seviceperson is quickly shipped out of Iraq and into Germany where if they survive a week and then die, it is not reported.

I don't know of any information that supports this - it would seem that by now at least one angry family would be making a stink. BUt of course, if a family member is wounded in Iraq and then dies in Germany, would that family even know if the death is reported or not?

However the CNN website that listed all the deaths occurring in Iraq (and coaliton people were listed as well as AMericans) seemed to detail many deaths wherein someone was alive for a short while in Germany but then succumbed.

[Marie26]

177. Did Hersh actually personally call you

w/this information?

[Marie26]

179. Guess not. nt

[Name removed]

138. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[halobeam]

152. please read post 150... Monumental cover ups EXIST.

[hedgehog]

49. Just to add some idle speculation

I was in agreement with you about the fact that the Army knows how to build an ammo dump and shelters around it. On the other hand, I'm remembering Israeli civilians who've died without a mark on them when they happened to be too close to a terrorist bomb. The impact of the pressure wave can cause fatal damage to internal organs. Given the size of some of those blasts, I wonder if even people in shelters were entirely protected. I hope Hersh is looking into this to settle it one way or another.

[Name removed]

117. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

112. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[requiem99]

37. TheWraith is correct. This is probably not a story.

[pwb]

38. what ammo dump?

more disinformation and diversion of the truth.

[elehhhhna]

46. huh...

"I have no horse. I have no carriage." Said the man with the horse and carriage in Kinski's Nosferatu

[stepnw1f]

89. "more disinformation and diversion of the truth."?

No shit? How do you know?

[orleans]

50. call him back and ask him to do some exploring on that fire at fort

meade. those "sensitive" materials that were destroyed....like what? more info on an upcoming "terror attack" before the election that now they won't be able to foresee?

[WinkyDink]

51. "No IMMEDIATE reports of casualties", emphasis mine.

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2006/10/10/africa/ME_GEN...

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

54. No, fucking shit, Mr. Spock.

You take a report that was filed on THE SAME DAY as the event in question, when the ammo dump was still burning/exploding/etc and wonder why they might chose to QUALIFY their statement? Gee, I sure hope you never become a journalist, as it'd be completely irresponsible to report "There were no casualties" when the event in question is ONGOING.

Tinfoil's good for more things than making hats. Ever try it for wrapping up leftovers?

[Junkdrawer]

66. Now, if you can't make your point with calm logic, you could always...

resort to infantile name calling...

Just a suggestion.

[Sequoia]

55. He called you!

I'm impressed. Do you ever hang out with him?

[Marie26]

58. Why did he call you?

Have you provided him w/a scoop on this or anything?

[davepc]

61. How many people were killed in the Cam Rahn Bay ammo dump attack in 71?

Or the Da Nang explosion in 1969?

[KittyWampus]

65. I don't know, do you? I never heard of either incident.

[davepc]

74. No idea how many, if any, casualties occurred

In late April, 1969 a brush fire spread to the Marine ammo dump at Da Nang, and set off explosions that lasted for the better part of 15 hours.

The Marine dump covered 332 acres, and the adjacent Air Force dump was roughly 1/3 the size.

About half the ordinance stored at the site was destroyed.

The clean up of unexploded munitions that had been flung out of their storage areas took half a year at least.




The attack at Cam Rahn Bay was a deliberate attack by VC intended to destroy fuel and ammo facilities.

They were successful, but accounts of that attack are more difficult to find.

[Marie26]

72. 36 altogether

"Ammo Dump Disasters"

At least three US ammunition storage areas were destroyed by fires and secondary explosions between 1965 and 1969. Thirty six people were killed, many more injured and tons of munitions were destroyed

Bien Hoa
One of the first ammo dumps destroyed in Vietnam was at the Bien Hoa air base in 1965. It did not get much attention from the Navy, it was more or less accepted as a fact of life that this could happen in a combat area.

Qui Nhon
The USS Enterprise accident was still fresh in people's minds when on March 23, 1969, a Viet Cong Sapper team attacked a US munitions storage area in Qui Nhon, Vietnam, causing a fire and secondary detonation of ammunition stacks.

Da Nang
April 1969- Secondary explosions destroyed the ammunition storage area at Da Nang, Vietnam.

http://www.ordnance.org/mishaps.htm

[davepc]

79. 36 casualties in 4 separate incidents, over a span of 4 years.

Some of them at the largest ammunition and fuel storage facilities in Vietnam.


Makes me think the 'reports' of hundreds of casualties in the attack in Iraq are overblown or outright fraudulent.

[Marie26]

81. I agree.

This seems like a non-issue. CNN covered it for awhile because they liked the cool pictures of explosions, and then moved on to real news. They do this on a regular basis. I don't see any evidence of major casualties & don't really understand why people think there were.

[sofa king]

90. Ammo dump explosions aren't usually that deadly, BUT....

Officially, there were very few casualties in either event.

Cam Ranh Bay caused "few casualties," according to that source.

Apparently the total number of deaths from the three dump explosions of Bien Hoa, Qui Nhan, and Da Nang was thirty-six, according to this site.

Ammo dumps are usually cordoned off by at least a one-thousand yard buffer on all sides. There are plenty of guards posted inside that buffer, but not necessarily inside the dump. That video shows that anyone nearby had at least four minutes to get away before the massive explosion went off--and I'm sure everyone nearby suddenly turned into a Roger Bannister when the explosions started.

As far as that big explosion goes, the last possible thing it could be is a nuke. No way. It's unlikely that nuclear weapons were stored with conventional weapons, especially not in a dangerous forward area, and even if you did it wouldn't detonate properly.

Far more likely, it could have been a "Daisy Cutter," the BLU-82B which is so big SAS soldiers in the first Gulf War mistook one for a nuclear blast. Camp Falcon is the former Rasheed Air Base, which means that the MC-130s which carry the Daisy Cutter can fly in and out of there.

What causes the casualties in dump explosions is the cleanup afterward, which may still be ongoing. The cleanup job is invariably overwhelming to the bomb disposal experts, and when untrained soldiers start lending a hand, they get killed.

So that may be one reason for the news blackout--the fact that this forward base (11 miles from downtown Baghdad--sad that it's a "forward base" but that's what they call it) is devoting most of its efforts to cleaning up hundreds of acres and is probably taking casualties doing it. The troops there are effectively off-line until the area is cleared. The explosion may also have closed the runways with UXO, as happened on the first day of the seige of Khe Sanh.

Another, more sinister reason may be that the US was storing dangerous chemicals or even WMDs inside the dump, which could include pesticides, chemical defoliants similar to Agent Orange, or crowd control gases. Americans also have a habit of carting along stuff they really shouldn't have in the first place, "just in case." The Bari, Italy mustard gas explosion was the only recorded use of chemical weapons in World War II, and it was American mustard gas.

Would it be hypocrytical for the Bush Administration to be storing WMDs in Iraq? Yes, and that's perfectly in keeping with everything else they've done there, which is why I'm worried.

[druidity33]

100. thank you...

for a reasoned and sane assessment of the situation. With carefully placed links too! Excellent job!

And yes, my first thought was that we probably just gassed our own troops and the green zone too...

[NJCher]

123. yes

Thanks for the time and trouble it took to write that post--and with the links. Very helpful,sofaking.

Same goes with AZDem's post downthread.




Cher

[Ms. Clio]

126. very informative, thanks

never heard of the World War 2 mustard gas incident before.

[Joe Chi Minh]

141. Guard duties are very routine and prone to lapses of vigilance.

Guarding a large depot doesn't sound like a very exact science to me, even with cameras.

[goforit]

78. Did anyone see the post by proud2blib "Did a nuke go off in Iraq?"

OMG!!!!
YOU all have to see his video he picked up from Youtube.
His post is right here on GD.

[Junkdrawer]

82. A MOAB, maybe...but a nuke wouldn't be stored in an ammo dump in Iraq....

I don't think the Army is THAT stupid...yet.

[davepc]

83. mushroom clouds do not equal nuclear explosion

This explosion took place well after dawn of the morning after the attack on the ammo dump. As far as anyone could tell, it was a bunker which contained 26 500 pound bombs that cooked off and exploded together. It was quite an impressive show, collapsing the roof of the movie theater, blowing in many doors and windows, and causing sand to rain down for several hours. This picture was taken from my hooch area, about a mile from ground zero.

http://www.petester.com/html/CRB008.html


Stacked ammunition makes a hell of an bang and cloud in its own right.

In this case 26 500lb bombs.

Picture was taken in 1971 in Vietnam. (not by me, I wasn't born yet)

[Marie26]

84. OMG!!! A NUKE??

Because a war-torn country in the midst of a civil war is the best place to store a nuclear bomb. I wish there was a special "ignore stupid posts" feature.

[lovuian]

93. Was there a Electromagnetic blackout

doesn't that happen with Nukes or is this another new weapon that the Army didn't know about...

[Marie26]

94. Maybe it was just an ammo dump fire.

Also, was this a hit-and-run OP, or what?

[stepnw1f]

92. You Know Why We Have So Much Speculation as to What Happened There?

Because the media is either not allowed to do it's job or is too damned tied to Bushco to give a shit and try!

I don't blame people here for considering the WORST case senario.... this administration is pure evil (forgive the figure of speech, but I consider "evil" a highly appropriate adjective)

[kimmerspixelated]

96. Your avatar

is oddly disturbing and pleasing at the same time. What's it from?

[stepnw1f]

98. My Brother Found it Online...

I have no idea where it's from... one of the funniest pics I've seen in a long time.

[Duppers]

99. even blah3, Stranger is skeptical of the reports of 300 dead

http://www.blah3.com/article.php?story=2006102120432355...

[americanstranger]

106. I'm skeptical of the 'no casualties' claim, too.

I think that there were probably a number of deaths - maybe not 300, but even 50 or 60 dead Americans at one time would shock the conscience of this country and possibly turn even more people against Bush's War.

And that's why I believe the story is being blacked out. There may not have been 300 killed - but there were probably enough people killed that Team Thug is terrified of the true story coming out.

I look forward to what Mr. Hersch finds out. If anyone can get to the bottom of it, he can.

- as

[aquart]

113. Does casualties only mean "dead"? I'm confused.

I thought it included wounded but I'm used to being wrong.

[americanstranger]

163. That definition has changed over time.

I'm used to it meaning dead and wounded, too - but more and more, the term 'casualties' is applied to dead people.

Wounded people are now commonly referred to as 'wounded.' Damned if I know why.

- as

[NMDemDist2]

104. my DH worked in high security guarding big MOABs and other high

explosives during most of his tour in the Army. I had him watch this video and he says it's highly unlikely it was a nuke. First of all, nukes don't go off from blasts around them, they have to be carefully exploded. he says that looks like a 2000 lb bomb going off.

he also said the chance of no casualties is also pretty high. the Army constructs their ammo dumps especially to minimize any outward explosion of the ordinances. He said SOP is to dig a big hole and surround it with 10 foot (usually) earthen berms so all the explosives go UP and not OUT. He also said they wouldn't be anywhere near where the guys live for that very reason (to minimize injuries and damage)

While I don't doubt the Administration put the brakes on the news orgs showing the tapes, my DH says the tape would look like all hell was breaking loose while on the ground it is loud and scary as hell but he says it looks like the dump exploded just like it was supposed to as all the explosives went UP

He knows this from personal experience when his base's dump went up to the tune of 126K pounds of explosives including Daisy Cutters. It shredded double thick steel doors. He said a couple guys got hit with some shrapnel but nobody died and most injuries were minimal.

I figured since I am sitting next to someone who has actually witnessed such an event, I'd share what he had to say.

We both are interested to see what Sy comes up with though.

[aquart]

115. I saw most of it go up in that video.

But the big blast went out as well as up.

[onenote]

119. uh-oh, someone posting information based on actual knowledge

rather than baseless speculation. The nerve of some people.

[NMDemDist2]

137. ROFL, yup. Shame on me for asking for facts instead of truthiness

[TheWraith]

134. 26 count of 500 pound bombs, from what I've heard.

That's reportedly the biggest single chunk of what they lost, causing the big boom that everybody here is so concerned about. A big rack of 500 pound bombs, and 26 of them cooked off almost simultaneously.

[Festivito]

147. ((-- This looks like the MUST READ post. Thanks. /nt

[Marie26]

148. Thank you! nt

[Imagevision]

110. Pentagon didn't say no-one was killed, they stated; "no casuaties were being reported"

cute catch phrase...

[sce56]

124. Ok first off I sure hope there were NO CASUALTIES. As for the names

posted on jihadunspun I personally looked through the Army Knowledge Online site and looked to see if any of those names yielded a real army email address I found one out of about 15-20 I looked up. I tried the officers first as they would undoubtedly have the email address not so positive for lower enlisted ranks. The one name I found that matched the list an SFC, was assigned to a different type of unit than the list. This does not mean there were no casualties just that the list is most likely a fake. Secondly I do hope that this finally opened the eyes of the warmongers in the white house to see they were steering the wrong course hence the Tet comment! Lastly I'm going to give a salute to the soldiers who have taken up a redress to congress. God Bless them and I wish them nothing but the best of luck in their endeavor it takes real Colbert's, Brass ones, to take that route and real leadership to question bad leadership at the highest levels! http://www.appealforredress.org/index.php




October 17, 2006,Will be remembered as the Enabling day of the 21st Century!
"The government will make use of these powers only insofar as they are essential for carrying out vitally necessary measures..."
~Adolf Hitler, March 23, 1933, before the German Parliament (Reichstag) as he urged them to pass his "Enabling Act"

Got Fascism Yet?

[LynnTheDem]

131. TBR; full of shit then. Full of shit now.

Michael at Lunaville (who maintains the fantastic Iraq Coalition Casualties site) has also commented on this nonsense from TBR News, providing counter-evidence and adding that:

TBRNews is run by a "Walter Storch" a pseudonym for Peter Stahl, a.k.a. Gregory Douglas. Google the name and find the trail of bullshit the man leaves behind wherever he walks, or read more about Gregory Douglas in this diary at Daily Kos. The man is a crackpot, not worthy of mention even on this the lowliest of blogs.

Let me say that even if you did not know who TBR News is run by, some of the statements in the relevant TBR News post (bold text is my emphasis) alone should raise a big warning flag that TBR News should not be believed:

http://www.theleftcoaster.com/archives/004673.php

[halobeam]

154. Lynn, I've seen you tirelessly try to explain

time and time...thread and thread again regarding the accuracy of the deaths of our soldiers. I commend you, and I absolutely agree with you almost all of the time. I know you have a great knowledge in researching facts and people/groups who report on the internet. I will take everything you are saying into serious account, but for reasons I put on my post 150 on this thread, I am torn as to what lengths this/ and for that matter ANY administration will go to, to SHUT people up/and twist facts until they are just bold faced lies.. especially at wartime.

This whole thing just sucks. OUT LOUD. Knowing we don't REALLY know the truth, and may not for a very long time. It's happened before, it could be happening now, and it may very well likely happen again.

WTF did these politicians learn in their homes/ and in kindergarten... what values? My God, it's truly unforgivable.

[LynnTheDem]

155. I agree, BUSH would cover up deaths IF he could.

the US military leadership WOULD cover up deaths IF they could.

We the families WOULD NOT.

It's that simple.

To cover up hundreds of US deaths owuld be impossible; the result when the truth came out would mean war in the streets of America. Even bush isn't stupid enough to try forcing a cover-up of a handful of US troop deaths and even that handful WOULD come out & fast.

Americans too often seem to be under the impression that We the Family Members are under US military orders to STFU as the soldiers are.

We are not.

[autorank]

130. Well, I'm behind the times. Stay away from this place and you (KR)

miss the good stuff. Seymour Hersh is our best reporter, period. The man has ice in his veins when he needs to but the motivation of a warrior. He's been telling the truth so long it's beginningto be the story of my generation.

Thanks for posting this. Messges fo Hersh are a treasure.

[Marie26]

146. Hersh

I don't think Hersh is involved in this at all. This whole thing is only based on the say-so of a OP who hasn't posted again in this whole thread. Why would Seymour Hersh call some internet poster? Why would he bother? I could maybe see an email, but reporters are cautious about contacting strangers on the phone in the age of caller ID. And also, he's just a busy man & couldn't personally contact everyone who emails him w/a potential story. The supposed "Hersh connection" lends an aura of creditability to what is essentially baseless Internet speculation.

[autorank]

159. I just like Hersh. I'll let the rest sort itself out. The guy has been there.

I remember reading his book on Henry Kissinger...what a landmark piece of journalism.

[Marie26]

160. Oh, me too.

He's probabably one of the most courageous journalists out there.

[Rockholm]

140. Morning Kick.

[stellanoir]

143. 46th rec

This is so interesting.

I only learned of this earlier today from an "iffy" site and then I pondered whether something this huge could be blackedout and then I thought about the blackout on election fraud and then I noticed how the administration had changed its tone about Iraq since the 11th and then I wondered if the truth would ever be known and then I flashed on Sy Hersh and then I stopped thinking.

[HamdenRice]

144. Please STOP calling it an "Ammo Dump" -- There were 3 battalions

stationed at that base. Whatever the truth is, I find it amazing that one of the biggest forward operating bases, which served 3 battalions, has been morphed by the media into an ammo dump.

Recognizing that there were probably some 2,000 soldiers there when the first explosions went off, makes the report of zero casualties not credible.

Just google Camp Falcon with a date BEFORE 2006, and you get a sense of the size of this complex.

[paparush]

145. How Long B4 Big Brother Starts Cracking down on Google..??

America's Regime cannot continue to allow the sheeple unfettered access to the TRUTH.

[halobeam]

153. I believe the worst first with this administration and media.

They EARNED it.

[LynnTheDem]

157. You're also -unintentionally I am sure- believing the worst of the families

of our troops. Myself included.

I am sure IF the US govt could stop releasing any death notices at all, they would.

They can't. So they continue to release notices (although they don't "count"; we at IIRC and other count sites do that)

But WE the FAMILY MEMBERS of our US forces DO NOT, WILL NOT, cover up nor allow a covering up of our soldiers' deaths.

YES most US forces' families ARE aware of the many casualty count sites around. YES they do notify us instantly whenever we've not posted the deaths of their loved ones quickly enough. YES they do notify us instantly when we post any incorrect personal info about their loved one. HELL YES.

YES we've had MAYORS contact us regarding info on the deaths of soldiers from thier cities or towns. YES we've had PRIESTS contact us regarding info on the deaths of soldiers from thier cities or towns. YES we've had reporters contact us regarding info on the deaths of soldiers from thier cities or towns.

YES the families are in close contact via email and phone with their loved ones Iraqmired. YES they'd raise bloody holy hell if they'd not heard anything for 2 weeks or more. That's why the US informs the families so quickly about their loved ones' deaths; they KNOW they can't hide it, they KNOW if they don't move fast people will start screaming loudly.

I know you mean well, but I am offended, as a family member of a soldier mired in Iraq, that you would for one second think I would not scream to the entire bloody WORLD if I didn't hear from my husband for 2 weeks, or if the military told me to keep quiet about it if God forbid my loved one were killed.

bush has no ability to cover up our soldiers' deaths; I am sure he would IF HE COULD. He CAN'T. I won't let him. My fellow military family members won't let him. OUR SOLDIERS WON'T LET HIM.

[truedelphi]

168. LynnTD - Thank you for the work

you and your colleagues are pursuing.

To be at the cyber morgue day in and day out - not a pleasant duty. But a totally honorable one.

My hat is off to you and those with you.

[halobeam]

172. I couldn't possibly have thought

there would ever be something negative taken out of what I wrote, but you've managed to find it. How can you at the same time say "you know I mean well" yet then state you are offended and state also what for one second I think about you or any other military family? I wrote about an incident that happened long ago, and it's so startling to me, that administrations are as powerful and beyond comprehension at times, leaving no wiggle room for Bush administration in that statement. NOT the milary families now. Never said that, never implied that, it takes a creative person to read what you did between my lines.







I know you meant well, too, however I'm offended that you are offended when you "know I meant well".

[truedelphi]

170. From a google of Camp Falcon

Partial identity of those who were at least sometimes on this base (see triple stars)

From a WEBSITE called GlobalSecurity.org
2nd Battalion - 82nd Field Artillery Regiment
"Black Dragons
Most of the soldiers of 2-82 FA are located on Camp Steel Dragon in the Green Zone. Many of the fire supporters are located in different camps. The 2-82 FA fire supporters attached within the Grey Wolf Brigade Combat Team are serving at 3d Brigade HQs, with TF 3-8 Cav, and with TF 1-9 Cav. TF 2-7 Cav and their fire supporters are serving with the 39th Brigade Combat Team at Camp Cooke in Taji. ***The soldiers of C Battery and our COLT Platoon are attached to COL Lanza's 5th BCT and are located on Camp Falcon on the south side of Baghdad. The rest of the 2-82 FA soldiers, along with nearly 100 soldiers of B Company, 1-160 IN, belong to TF Steel Dragon

[truedelphi]

156. Just read Riverbend's latest post

She has been off the net for about two months. Found out last night she is back
on the net and blogging. For all of her readers, this is a huge relief.

I am posting about her return because here is the last sentence of her newest essay (an essay regarding the 600K figure of Iraq deaths)

"This latest report (THAT IS 600K - CJS) is probably closer to the truth than anything that's been published yet. And what about American military deaths? When will someone do a study on the actual number of those? If the Bush administration is lying so vehemently about the number of dead Iraqis, one can only imagine the extent of lying about dead Americans…"

I think when all is said and done the longest lasting effect of the BUSH years will be the ridiculous amount of cynicism that this Administration has created. I only watch the mainstream media to allow myself to know what will happen - which I can pretty much figure out by inverting every sttement that B* makes.Every so often, I imagine I am misled by this inversion process.

And I still think that even if there were no casualties - none, nada, at the ammo dump that night, something shifted the moment that place quit burning. Within twenty four hours journalists reporters were being abducted disappeared killed at an alarming rate. (I think there was nine in a thirty six hour period.)

Then BushCo comes out in the last twenty four hours to say that we need a change in course.Maybe he isn't as dumb as we suppose. You can't have a fight if your powder is wet - even worse if you ain't got any powder at all.

[Name removed]

161. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[truedelphi]

162. I do believe that in attempting to vet this list

Someone somewhere has proven it is a hoax.

I'll have some time later this week to see if I can check out some of the names through a local
"Contact a soldier in Iraq" program

[sce56]

164. Having access to he army data base for email addresses I did look

a bunch up as I posted up at #154 I could not find any names that matched official e,mails especially the officers! And like I said it does not meant there were no casualties just that the list is fake which I believe and is disinformation thrown out by people for whatever reason be it a cruel hoax or information warfare! The list is in my opinion false!

October 17, 2006,Will be remembered as the Enabling day of the 21st Century!
"The government will make use of these powers only insofar as they are essential for carrying out vitally necessary measures..."
~Adolf Hitler, March 23, 1933, before the German Parliament (Reichstag) as he urged them to pass his "Enabling Act"

Got Fascism Yet?

[Monkey see Monkey Do]

175. Source (tbrnews) is run by a nazi called Walter Storch (aka Gregory Douglas)

who has a history of forgery & general making shit up (google 'Regicide' or "Voice of the White House") & is very close to arch nazi Willis Carto.

If I was a betting man I'd say that Brian Harring is another alias (Storch literally has dozens) but it's always possible TBRNews (which stands for 'The Barnes Review' News, after Carto's Holocaust denial rag) has a second employee.

[lies and propaganda]

165. kick*

theres got to be way more to this story..

[dipsydoodle]

171. The event occured on the 10th

The TBR posting wasn't until the 20th - that's the one which everyone is dissing.

However - a completely different source posted this on the 12th : http://www.jihadunspun.com/intheatre_internal.php?artic...

I appreciate that's not exactly MSM but then for the sake of consisitency do we either use what we can find or use MSM only ?

[Jcrowley]

174. CAMP FALCON: WHAT REALLY HAPPENED?

CAMP FALCON: WHAT REALLY HAPPENED?
by Sarah Meyer



Iraqis and Americans must read the information below. They must watch the two videos. And then they, and people over the world, must ask the U.S. government for a full and open explanation of what happened at Camp Falcon, Baghdad, on the 10th of October 2006.

<snip>


Iraqi Resistance rockets blast into biggest American arsenal in Iraq
10.10.06. Iraqi Resistance Report. "The source admitted that dozens of Americans had been killed or wounded in the blasts that were still ripping the American arsenal apart. The source said that the US forces were unable to do anything to stop the massive inferno of flame and explosions that was lighting up the Baghdad sky like fireworks. Reuters reported the puppet regime's "Iraqiyah" television network as showing pictures of a huge fire lighting up the night sky."

Iraqi Resistance rockets blast into biggest American arsenal in Iraq setting off unprecedented explosions, illuminating Baghdad sky just before midnight Tuesday
11.10.06. Iraqi Resistance Report.

Nine huge American transport planes unload casualties from devastating Resistance strike on US Falcon Base in Baghdad just before midnight Tuesday, indicating heavy American losses
11.10.06. Iraqi Resistance Report. "In a bulletin posted at 2am Makkah time before dawn Wednesday morning, Mafkarat al-Islam reported its correspondent in al-Habbaniyah as saying that the US military hospital at the massive American-occupied air base there had begun to receive dead and wounded personnel from the devastating Resistance rocket assault on the US Falcon arsenal in the southern Baghdad suburb of ad-Durah. Just before midnight Tuesday, the Iraqi Resistance fired barrages of Katyusha and Grad rockets into the arsenal, the largest such facility in occupied Iraq, causing the ordnance to begin to explode."

Many links here:
http://indexresearch.blogspot.com /

[Marie26]

176. Will this thread ever end?

Two-plus weeks with no news - because there is NO NEWS. It's a fire at an ammo dump, and as more knowledgeable people have explained, it is highly unlikely that there were siginificant casualties or WMD's at the site.

[populistdriven]

183. there will be lots of news about this - after the elections

[Marie26]

187. I doubt that very much.

It's been 3 weeks. Hersh is not investigating this, & there's been no reports of major casualties. As numerous people have pointed out, ammo dump fires are not uncommon & usually don't result in large numbers of deaths due to their location. But people keep going w/a conspiracy theory made up whole-cloth on the Internet. It's a non-story.

[Index Research]

178. Camp Falcon

Dai Williams, Depleted Uranium researcher, wrote a response to the Index Research / BRussels Tribunal. Two videos showing similar explosions to those used at Camp Falcon are given as evidence. She gives further evidence. Please see (again): <http://indexresearch.blogspot.com/2006/10/camp-falcon-w... > Camp Falcon: What Really Happened?

[truedelphi]

180. Thankx and I'm horrified by this:

"The bad news is that in my reports these are suspected undepleted uranium warheads. They are not fission weapons. But they burn with an intense flash and fireball sometimes leaving a shower of burning shrapnel as white stars. These have been confused with white phosphorus. They are not. Phosphorus has too low density for the shrapnel trajectories seen in TV and camera shots. Also burning phosphorus leaves a massive trail of white smoke. Uranium burns with black smoke, almost invisible in night pictures."

So even though the "nukes" end of the story is not played out in full (The explosion that is so massive is not a nuke - after all they only go off during certain protocols for detonation) what has been worrying at me is now a possibility: depleted uranium (DU)

In Vietnam, when you had a munitions fire - there was no DU hardening of weaponry. But both Iraq wars are a battleground wherein Depleted Uranium is used in the hardening of the US tanks and in the tips of the US missiles

Depleted Uranium is a tricky thing to understand. Should the US Army for whatever reason leave a DU hardened tank in my back yard, a simple covering with a few heavy duty quilts would stop the rays of the DU from affecting anyone in the back yard.

This is why so many scientists go on record to say that DU is safe. Even if there is no covering of quilts in that backyard tank, there is not an obvious health risk to anyone who is, for instance, sitting their butt on that tank for twelve hours at a time.

But once the DU hardened areas of the tank come under fire, and experience fission, DU is dangerous. Suspended and airborne, the particles are now able to adversely affect humans in the area (and those who receive fallout from the explosion hours or days later)

[Jcrowley]

181. Something dangerous

[dipsydoodle]

182. Just keeping this alive

as should be done. Will be interesting to see what Hersh comes up with - preposition ha ha !

[Marie26]

188. Please explain

to me why you think Hersh is investigating this.

[kpominville]

184. For all the Doubters

There are three telltale signs of a nuclear explosion vs that of regular ordinance.

1. A very bright flash
2. A rising column of fire
3. a mushroom cloud.

To anyone who is interested I suggest renting the movie "Trinity and beyond".

Someone posted earlier that a mushroom cloud alone does not mean it was nuclear. That is correct.
HOWEVER, all three together is almost certainly a sign of a nuclear explosion. This one was probobly about 1 kiloton, maybe less. It looked almost exactly like the footage of the 1kt bomb tested at Able Ranger in Nevada back in the 1950s.

I am not convined there were actually 300 casualties. If there were that would be huge, but that base is in a relatively isolated and unpopulated area of baghdad.
Even if there were not casualties, this is still a big story, especially before the elections. The Republicans know this and it lends motive to the idea of a coverup.

[lovuian]

186. Its going to be interesting as time goes on the geiger counter

readings of Lebanon and Iraq
Uranium doesn't poof go away