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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 01:16 AM
Original message
Iraqi, arrested by US, relates an amazing dialogue with one Marine
Edited on Mon Oct-23-06 01:20 AM by BurtWorm
This dialogue is reported by Qaasem, a 20-year-old correspondent for Alive in Baghdad as he relates his arrest on September 26, when his neighborhood was the site of a number of sniper attacks on US forces. Below, he's just been taken on foot to a house next to the neighborhood mosque (Qasem is blindfolded, but he can tell where he is by the sounds and following the map in his head). The whole story makes for fascinating, if disturbing reading. One on ones like this can't be helping the US's position with the people of Iraq:



http://aliveinbaghdad.org/2006/10/18/qasems-first-day-o... /

it is about 3:30 am I was sitting on the ground .and hearing sound of big generator ..very noisy

One marine talked to me

You speak English right ??

Yes I said .after he made me notice that he talking with me by putting his finger on my head

I like to talk with you it is the first time for me to meet a prisoner who can speak English he said I kept silent.

Why are your people killing Americans we came here to make Iraq a good civilized country? he said.

I did not see any civilized thing happened in Iraq made by Americans ..tell me why you came to Iraq sure you have a reason to fight in Iraq and risk your life and use your guns?? I asked him.

Your people started the killing when they helped the terrorists to attack the twin towers in New York on 9 /11 ..many civilian Americans were killed because of that .we were scared ..so that we have to stop those bad terrorists before they do it again he answered.

But Iraq had no relation with this at all I said

No ..youre wrong Iraqis helped the terrorists .we know this ..so then we came here

Sorry ..I have to say that youre wrong your Congress made sure that you have wrong information ..and Iraq has no bonds with Terrorists crimes .. I said

Well .my job is a soldier ..I am not a politician my job is killing and arresting terrorists that are hiding in your town he said

Do you think I am terrorist ?? I asked him

Well military intelligence will make sure .I do not know he said

Why Americans wasting Billions in Iraq to make enemies .they can use them to make friends and peace ?? I asked him

No we have friends in Iraq .our friends are giving us the needed information that help to arrest the bad people such as you he said

Me ??!! .You just said now that you are not sure if I bad or not but you seems sure now I said with surprise

I am sure that you are here for a real reason he said

I will tell the main reason .it is because marines found a computer in my house and because I write blogs in english for peaceful Americans I said

So ..you have ability to make websites for terrorists that makes you more suspected he said

What is your job?? he asked me

I was engineer now I am jobless I said

Wow .what kind of engineering work ?? he asked

Basically I am a mechanical engineer I answered

That means you can make bombs and improve guns for terrorists yes ..sure you did so he said

Hey hey wait.you judge me because I am mechanical engineer ?? what you will think if you knew that I worked in construction field ..and I have good experience in civil engineering and buildings ?? I said

Thats more worse .you can make maps of the streets and the places and give it to the terrorists he said

So engineer is very suspected person for marines ?? I asked him

Mostly yes .they can do many things that help terrorists he said

Ok I have friend whom arrested few months ago he is doctor..do suspect doctors too I asked him

For sure.terrorists could be injured during fighting us ..and sure there are doctors who take care of them and provide them with medical help he said

Let me tell you this ..you suspect educated people .and arrest them because they are doctors or engineers so, shall I believe that you will help Iraq to be civilized country ???!! I said

You should believe this ..in your city there are terrorists .and we are here to kill them ..yesterday, my friend was injured when we got mortar attacks here in this house .and he lost his hand ..for sure there is a fucking Iraqi engineer drawing a map for terrorists and help them to attack us and cut my friends hand he said ..he seems getting upset

Now stop talking .. he said to me .
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 01:23 AM
Response to Original message
1. Ugly diatribe. I hate it . I believe it. nt
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BuyingThyme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 01:23 AM
Response to Original message
2. "Our troops" are our least informed demographic.
Less informed than Fox News viewers.
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Lasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 01:27 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. Misinformed is more like it.
Uninformed would be an improvement.
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progressivebydesign Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 02:00 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. Uninformed becomes the misinformed far too quickly. n/t
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #2
15. what an embarrassment
he sounds like my nephew marine. A totally ignorant gun happy little warrior. :puke:
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Beacho Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-27-06 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #2
46. That is one of the most untrue generalizations
You'll find the same 'demographics' that you'll find in the civilian population.

That's an insult to all veterans, including me.
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progressivebydesign Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 01:59 AM
Response to Original message
4. Can we require college degrees to enlist in the military?
It's far tooooo easy to manipulate the unitelligent and uneducated. They buy everything they're told. Scary shit.
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krkaufman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 09:04 PM
Response to Reply #4
31. Well, sure. It's called The Draft.
Edited on Mon Oct-23-06 09:06 PM by krkaufman
I sometimes wonder if our strict adherence to a "volunteer" military (ahem) is an effort to insure a lesser educated soldier.
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StellaBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 09:22 PM
Response to Reply #4
36. * has a degree from Yale AND Harvard.
:eyes:
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elocs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 02:45 AM
Response to Original message
6. Universal Soldier by Buffie Sainte-Marie:
Edited on Mon Oct-23-06 02:45 AM by elocs
"He's five feet two and he's six feet four
He fights with missiles and with spears
He's all of 31 and he's only 17
He's been a soldier for a thousand years

He's a Catholic, a Hindu, an atheist, a Jain,
a Buddhist and a Baptist and a Jew
and he knows he shouldn't kill
and he knows he always will
kill you for me my friend and me for you

And he's fighting for Canada,
he's fighting for France,
he's fighting for the USA,
and he's fighting for the Russians
and he's fighting for Japan,
and he thinks we'll put an end to war this way

And he's fighting for Democracy
and fighting for the Reds
He says it's for the peace of all
He's the one who must decide
who's to live and who's to die
and he never sees the writing on the walls

But without him how would Hitler have
condemned him at Dachau
Without him Caesar would have stood alone
He's the one who gives his body
as a weapon to a war
and without him all this killing can't go on

He's the universal soldier and he
really is to blame
His orders come from far away no more
They come from him, and you, and me
and brothers can't you see
this is not the way we put an end to war."


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Disturbed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 02:59 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. This is fiction, right?
Even if it is it seems close enough to reality to explain why most Iraqis want the US/UK Troops and Mercs out of their country. The US/UK are making enemies out of people that were not enemies before they Occupied their country a killed around 6000,000 to bring this so called democracy.
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Chulanowa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #7
13. It sure reads like fiction
Not that I can claim to know for certain one way or the next, but this exchange sounds fake and reads fake. "Dumb american vs. enlightened prisoner". Has a very "parable" feel to it... Sort of like a Chick tract without the bad art and religious overtones.
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. I don't see that.
Kind of hard to imagine a Chick tract without bad art and religious overtones for one thing. ;)

What about seems faked? Haven't we all had stories told to us in which the teller is a hero, probably making him/herself a little more heroic and wise than he/she was in reality?
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Chulanowa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #17
26. Bingo
It's the "making himself look heroic", and the attendant "making the other guy look like a caveman" that makes me doubt it.

But as I said, I wasn't there.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #13
28. Oh, of course, because a soldier could NEVER be wrong and an Iraqi right.
Open your eyes, man - soldiers ain't saints.

And that's a military brat saying that!

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Chulanowa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. Don't go putting words in my mouth
I'm saying this account seems fabricated, or at least "poeticly enhanced" by the writer. What it does is turn the two people involved into archetypes, for the purpose of getting a point across. Do our soldiers do this sort of thing? Yeah, probably so. Is it this concise, clear-cut, and perfectly drawn between two sides? No. This story reads like a parable, condensing things into simple idioms and archetypes, to get a moral or message across. The message? "We're not all guilty".

As I said (twice), it may have happened, I was not there. I'm saying the style of writing makes me feel that the story is probably not a factual account of this person's own experience.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. Strangely enough, it felt real to me.
I guess we'll never know, though.

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peacebaby3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 10:28 PM
Response to Reply #29
37. I completely agree. I'm sure a marine is going to end a conversation
with a person he thinks is a terrorist by saying, "Now stop talking" It would be a lot more believable if there were lots of cursing and the conversation ended with shut the f*ck up. It is definitely one-sided and I'm not buying that either. As you noted, far too clear-cut and precise.

You know there are far worse cases than this one and it really bothers me to see things that are probably made up because it takes away from the legitimate argument of how people are really treated, but I understand the point this guy is making.

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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #37
38. Why are you insisting this is made up
just because it doesn't fit your conception of what a "real" conversation would be like? What, besides your gut feeling, suggests this isn't a report based on a real occurrence? Please help me understand.
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peacebaby3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-25-06 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #38
40. Well, I said..."probably made up" to be exact because neither you or I
can know for certain. I know a lot of people in the military and many of them have served in Iraq. One of them is my husband. I know that they are breaking rules if they have any kind of conversation like that with a potential "terrorist." If these marines are arresting this person because they are a potential "terrorist" then they don't have a conversation with them. The person would be questioned by the appropriate people and some marine who picked them up shouldn't be having any kind of conversation with them before they are officially questioned. Also, people in the military are known for their "colorful" language even when speaking pleasantly to friends. I find it very hard to believe that a marine that has just picked up someone that is a suspected "terrorist" would have had a political conversation with this person at all, but especially with such nice language. Also, as the other person I was replying to pointed out, this is far too clear-cut. It sounds very scripted to me.

Why do you believe it is a real occurrence?





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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-26-06 10:11 AM
Response to Reply #40
41. It seemed plausible enough...
...taking into account that some people exaggerate their poise, wit, etc., when talking about their arguments with others. I find it hard to believe that all people in the military would behave the same way in a given circumstance.

I wrote to the people who publish this blog to ask them their take on Qasem. I have yet to receive a reply, which makes me think I probably won't be getting one. I don't know if it's real. It seems like it would be helpful to know what they think of it.
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peacebaby3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-27-06 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #41
42. I agree that not all would behave the same way, but most under those
circumstances would follow the rules since they would be with other marines, possibly superiors.

I almost hate to say this, but I feel like Qasem's experience is too nice to have taken place as well. If these marines think this guy might be a terrorist, I would worry he would be treated even worse and I doubt any marine would bother to have a conversation with him or care about his thoughts at all.

It's impossible to know if it's real, but if you receive a reply from the blog, please let me know. While it might not convince me one way or another about the validity of this occurrence, I would be very open and interested in reading it.





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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-27-06 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. I certainly will share it, one way or the other.
Edited on Fri Oct-27-06 01:13 PM by BurtWorm
But now that three days have passed, I really don't think I'll be getting one.

Just to be clear, I'm agnostic about whether this incident really occurred.


PS: I just checked my e-mail box and I did receive a reply from the director of Alive in Baghdad who vouches for Qasem, while admitting that he can't know for sure if the story is true. But he says he's worked with Qasem for several months, there are video reports by him on the site, and he was uncharacteristically out of communication during the time he says he was arrested.
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Nabia2004 Donating Member (566 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-27-06 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #37
44. It reads like English is his second language - nt
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-27-06 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #44
47. Of course it is not his first language.
Edited on Fri Oct-27-06 02:30 PM by BurtWorm
He appears on the site in some of the videos, incidentally.
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krkaufman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #13
32. Looking back on pre-invasion man-on-the-street interviews in Baghdad ...
... and some of the interviews from Fahrenheit 9/11, I don't find this exchange all that implausible. The Baghdad citizens seemed far more well-informed, pre-invasion, than our fellow citizens. They were fairly certain an invasion was coming, regardless of what the Bush Admin was spinning, and were universal in their belief that is was because of their oil.
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 03:06 AM
Response to Original message
8. You simply don't DO an occupation with combat troops. Criminy, the
Romans knew this over 2,000 years ago!

You need specially trained and specially educated forces, and savvy political operatives, to enlist local cooperation and minimize rebellion, and to maintain civil order, safety, and trade for everyone's sake. And the Bushites have done just the opposite at every turn.

But I don't think it's a matter of the incompetence of the Bush Junta. I think there is something delilberate and diabolical about putting ordinary soliders in this impossible position.
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Disturbed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 03:37 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. What is that reason?
Why?
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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #9
19. A lot of profits to be made in chaos.
Especially when all the costs come from others.
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krkaufman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #8
33. I think it's as simple as they wanted to remove Saddam ...
... in order for their crony corporations to get dibs on Iraqi oil and related contracts, ahead of Russia and France, and knew they couldn't convince the American population to come along if it required a larger force. So they went in with what force they could, and sealed their failure.

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radwriter0555 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 04:37 AM
Response to Original message
10. This is about being brainwashed and institutionalised & indoctrinated
to make sure every iota of information is turned around to serve the purpose of invading, occupying and destroying iraqis and their entire nation.

This is incredibly sickening. The same dialogue must have occurred between nazis and jews; I have no doubt at all, whatsoever.
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 08:50 AM
Response to Original message
11. One shouldn't overlook the last part of the dialogue
in which the Marine tells Qasem that his buddy lost a hand. That's the kind of experience that really tests a person's capacity for cross-cultural empathy. And someone with this Marine's level of sophistication is most likely not going to pass that test.
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Canuckistanian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #11
16. This is why civilised societies invented courts of law
For precisely this purpose.

To prevent biased, prejudiced or corrupted officials from handing out whatever justice they deem "appropriate".

THIS is what habeus corpus, defense lawyers and proper rules of evidence are supposed to prevent.

Now, there is no such protection at all.
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The Backlash Cometh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 04:43 PM
Response to Original message
12. The convoluted thinking of a Republican would confuse an educated
person of any nation, including ours.
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BreweryYardRat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 04:55 PM
Response to Original message
14. Sounds faked.
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krkaufman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #14
34. It *does*, but then ....
... an ordinary exchange isn't really worth retelling. I'm an agnostic on the veracity of this exchange, but definitely believe it's possible. (link)
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Last Stand Donating Member (379 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-27-06 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #14
51. Sounds like the rebuttal to the fake RW emails.
No way a soldier and suspected terrorist have this kind of exchange...at least I highly doubt it.
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 05:13 PM
Response to Original message
18. SONIC hand bombs?? What are they?
<snip>

there house attacked with SONIC hand bombs after midnight and they did not know why they arrested yet !!!!


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badgerpup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 05:34 PM
Response to Original message
20. Sounds like they've gotten the witch trial mentality...
The more you try to prove your innocence, the worse your case becomes...
and if you just keep your mouth shut, you get tortured until you 'tell the truth'.

I am so fucking proud of my species. MAJOR :sarcasm:

Even "animals" don't pull this kind of shit...
it takes humans to come up with the real abominations. :cry: :puke:
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cui bono Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 05:43 PM
Response to Original message
21. While this conversation reads as fiction to me, and not very well written,
Edited on Mon Oct-23-06 05:44 PM by cui bono
I can believe that the essence of it is pretty accurate for the most part, as a generalization.

Sad that those guys get Rush Limpball on the radio and not Air America.
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Jed Dilligan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 05:46 PM
Response to Original message
22. That Marine is a stupid, sadistic robot
I hope he isn't representative.
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roamer65 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #22
35. I wonder how this marine will feel...
after 4 more tours of duty in Iraq.
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drm604 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 05:51 PM
Response to Original message
23. One thing I'm confused about.
How did he tell this story? Did he escape? Did they release him? It doesn't say.
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #23
27. It seems to be part of a longer story.
This is the first day of his arrest. Presumably there will be more.
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Postman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 06:11 PM
Response to Original message
24. Not surprising. Stupid leadership = Stupid Marines...
The first ones that have to be true believers of the propaganda are the ones doing your dirty work for you.

Is it any wonder the Jarhead risking his life has to think Iraq had something to do with 9/11?

The amazing trick is the self-deception one engages in even after the facts are on the table refuting everything that was used to invade the country.
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Jacobin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 06:34 PM
Response to Original message
25. The soldiers were lied to and are constantly told they are in Iraq
because of 9-11. They must take some of the responsibility for being purposefully ignorant. They were not drafted.

We are so screwed
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patrick t. cakes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-24-06 11:37 AM
Response to Original message
39. reminds me a lot like
the film three kings.
the misinformed solider
trying to rationalize
the mayhem and destruction
they have caused,
in the name of "liberty" or the "war on terror"
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Beacho Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-27-06 01:32 PM
Response to Original message
45. I'm not buying this either
The clipped pidgin english is what set my radar off.

Plus even your average grunt/jarhead knows that you need far LESS education than a civil engineer to make maps of local terrain/city streets.

I get the idea of this 'parable' and the point is valid, but it is a rather clumsy caricature of an american service member
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-27-06 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #45
48. The site vouches for Qasem.
I wrote to ask if they would. They say he was missing for a couple of days, which was unlike him. He's been a reliable reporter for five months.

Furthermore, the Committee for the Protection of Journalists and Reporters without Borders are both investigating this case.
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Beacho Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-27-06 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #48
50. I'm not doubting the persons arrest
I'm doubting some aspects of the exchange
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genie_weenie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-27-06 03:42 PM
Response to Original message
49. So just to be clear, in March 2003
when Qaasem was 17 he was a Mechanical Engineer? I wonder where in Ramadi he was captured. The conversation reads more like scripted dialouge, I can only assume the marine who speaks with Qaasem is supposed to be a CI guy probing for intel and not some random Motor T marine on guard duty...

This site may or may not be propaganda but I for one don't pit any stock in it...
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