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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 12:52 AM
Original message
Are you optimistic or pessimistic about Nov. 7th and what we
might gain, or lose, and why?
I know, we were at the bottom of the barrel in Nov 2004, but now I wonder :think: how legitimate that was.
I am optimistic. A whole lot of it. I think the fact that the 'irregularities' have been noticed, it cannot happen as blatantly.
Thoughts?
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Selatius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 12:54 AM
Response to Original message
1. Neutral.
There will be election problems. E-voting is not good, especially if poll workers aren't even adquately trained to fucking work them.
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 01:07 AM
Response to Reply #1
14. I think some states were 'locked in' prior to some of the info
coming out about how bad the e-voting machines are. Like mine, for instance. I have e-slate machines, and don't really know anything about them, other than there is no paper trail.
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jayfish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 12:54 AM
Response to Original message
2. I'm Cautious.
I know that shenanigans is about to ensue but I hope turnout is big enough to over come them.

Jay
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 01:00 AM
Response to Reply #2
9. Dem turnout will be a huge issue. This
mid-term election is so darn important! I know here in TX it's all about encouraging all Dems to vote. I have 4+ hours slated just to call Dems and tell them where to go to vote. There's an effort here to stir the Dem masses. I hope it's happening in other states, but in TX it's huge!
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JeffR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 12:55 AM
Response to Original message
3. Win we will. Win we must.
Edited on Mon Oct-23-06 12:56 AM by JeffR
Can't entertain any other possibility right now, and I'm avoiding pessimistic threads like a cat avoids a bath from now until election day.

Keep that optimistic fire burning!

ON EDIT: I'll address my crappy typing skills in mid-November.

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nam78_two Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 12:56 AM
Response to Original message
4. I am very optimistic
Edited on Mon Oct-23-06 12:56 AM by nam78_two
Because I cannot work on this shit if I think its going to be pointless-just a personal thing. Its hard work and long hours and only possible if one is optimistic (at least for me).

For now I refuse to consider defeat. At the same time I hope the volunteers who are working on election reform are duly vigilant :).
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WillyT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 12:59 AM
Response to Original message
5. There's Only One Way I Can Approach Nov. 7th...
Optimistically.

Head up, shoulders square, eyes clear.

Doing everything I can to help change this country for the better.

Otherwise, what's the friggin point?

:shrug:


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savemefromdumbya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 12:59 AM
Response to Original message
6. A week is a long time in politics
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Omphaloskepsis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 12:59 AM
Response to Original message
7. I am optimistic...
I just hope people don't get lazy. Thinking it is a slam dunk, and staying home. We need every vote, Diebold must be countered with strong exit poll numbers. Please fucking vote.
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 01:05 AM
Response to Reply #7
11. Amen! VOTE EVERYONE! nt
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bdamomma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 08:34 AM
Response to Reply #11
37. this is too important of a election PLEASE VOTE
and bring cameras to polling places to check any unfavorable activity, and please if you can volunteer in those polling areas, those older people need help with electronic voting. JUST VOTE EVERYONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 12:59 AM
Response to Original message
8. I'm too superstitious to comment.
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salib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 01:03 AM
Response to Original message
10. We will win
Eventually. We have a good chance, better than most expected not long ago. MUCH better than it seemed less than a year ago.

Still, the election is not all. Liberal progress is such a long hard row to hoe. However, history, inevitability, is on our side.
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bridgit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 01:06 AM
Response to Original message
12. optimistic...
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Grebrook Donating Member (479 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 01:06 AM
Response to Original message
13. Optimistic, it's too late to stop us, people are already early-voting, so
Edited on Mon Oct-23-06 01:07 AM by Grebrook
we're already winning.
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upi402 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 01:10 AM
Response to Original message
15. BushCo are barely containing their foreknowledge of a win
Edited on Mon Oct-23-06 01:11 AM by upi402
Will we just take it again and say "Ain't it a shame"?
Will we wait for the military to save us from an uber-power with a stranglehold on "democracy" like in Thailand?
Or suffer tyranny like in Saddam's Iraq?
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 01:29 AM
Response to Reply #15
19. Give me a break! I've read this so many times and am sick of it!
They say it so it makes it so? What the fuck else are they going to say?
Have you ever heard anyone in the rethug party say 'we're doomed'?

Perhaps we should take lessons! This is kharma, payback, deserved!
The Dems will make history!
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upi402 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 01:57 AM
Response to Reply #19
23. sounds like you're sure they wont cheat this time I guess
Good for you. No worries no headaches!

For me, I was 100% certain in '04. So maybe I'm wrong this time too! I sure hope so. They do gloat convincingly though.

You can have your break now BTW, it reads like you deserve one.
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 02:39 AM
Response to Reply #23
27. I was 100% certain also.
What do I know? Hope in my heart!
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natrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 07:29 AM
Response to Reply #27
36. i just know everything is gonna work out great in the big city,i just know
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Arugula Latte Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 01:13 AM
Response to Original message
16. Both
I swing back and forth between hope and despair. :crazy:
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 01:14 AM
Response to Original message
17. pessimistic
Edited on Mon Oct-23-06 01:23 AM by madrchsod
since the polls look bad for the rethugs i look for tens of thousands of voters being challenged across the country and hundreds of challenges from the local to federal level. the thing rethugs are most afraid of is the power of the people`s right to vote
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Grebrook Donating Member (479 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 01:15 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. That post was one long babble. Can you clear that up?
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 01:38 AM
Response to Reply #18
21. Actually, it wasn't . We all worry about
the stealing of our votes. You should check it out. It's happened.
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enigmatic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 01:35 AM
Response to Original message
20. Cautiously optimistic
That's all I can, or want, to be.
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 01:48 AM
Response to Reply #20
22. Would the results impact you?
Do you still live in Canada? OK, I looked.
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enigmatic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 02:02 AM
Response to Reply #22
24. I'm an Expat
Been up here since just before 9/11/01, so it's very big for me as well. DU in alot of ways is a townhall for me about what's politically going on in the states that I can't get up here...
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 02:08 AM
Response to Reply #24
25. I agree. It's a great place to gauge the political feel, and read
what's going on that you can't see from the news. Hell, it's like you never left, because I go to DU for the same thing. But once in awhile, we get Maher, Stewart, Colbert, people who tell it like it is, and it's pretty awesome.
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Innocent Smith Donating Member (466 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 02:38 AM
Response to Original message
26. I'm back to optimistic today
Tomorrow may be a different story and I've gone back and forth. It is hard to filter from the news stories what are real facts and what is spin.
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 03:02 AM
Response to Original message
28. VERY OPTIMISTIC! --even though I know that the Bushites have the
capability of completely flipping this election around, without detection, and will get a pass from the war profiteering corporate news monopolies, as they did in 2004, and from some but not all of the Democratic leaders and candidates, if history is any guide.

Bushite corporations own and control our election system, through TRADE SECRET, PROPRIETARY programming code in all the electronic voting machines and central tabulators, and, in ADDITION, have used their power to perpetrate massive vote suppression. Between the two, we have to admit that the capability is there, and that they are unscrupulous, undemocratic, unamerican, conscienceless dirtbags, with no qualms about stealing elections.

What makes me optimistic is the American people, and how they keep trying. I am very, very impressed with my fellow and sister Americans, and I'm sure now that we are going to get our country back. It may not be easy, but we are going to do it.

If they outright steal it, it will be very obvious. There is MUCH MORE consciousness of the fraudulent election system this time. There was almost zip consciousness in 2004. Most people were mystified as to what went wrong with our political system, and felt demoralized and disempowered. After all that work--for instance, the grass roots movement created a Democratic blowout success in new voter registration nearly 60/40 in 2004. How could Bush win with all those folks flocking to the Democratic Party for change?

But now we know--or a lot more of us know than did then. One sign of it: Absentee Ballot voting has QUINTUPLED in some places, and has seen dramatic increases everywhere, in direct proportion to the cancerous spread of corporate-controlled election voting machines. This is a huge PROTEST against the machines! Ordinary people are signaling that they've gotten the word. They know! And they are trying to get their vote counted. They want PAPER BALLOTS, HAND COUNTED. They are BOYCOTTING the machines.

So I'm optimistic even if the Diebold/ES&S steals it big. It will expose them, and we'll be able to get rid of these machines all the quicker.

I have always felt that election reform will be solved at the LOCAL/STATE level where ordinary people still have some influence, and where decisions about voting systems are still made. This huge Absentee Ballot protest will put great pressure on election officials. The voters are giving a thumbs down on electronic voting. And if the Bushites use their secret programming to steal it big, all the more citizen outrage and pressure for change will be generated.

But if they want to preserve their election theft capability for future purposes, they won't steal it big--in defiance of all the polls. They will steal it cleverly. They will put together an apparent Democratic victory in the House, but one that includes too many Bushite Democrats (like those who voted for torture and suspension of habeas corpus the other week) who will combine with outright Bushites to tie the hands of the REAL Democrats who represent the great majority of people in the country. This may have already been arranged by means of Diebold/ES&S in the PRIMARIES. Diebold/ES&S hold control over our choice of candidates in the primaries, as well as who wins in the general (s)elections. That's how we end up with so few antiwar candidates, in a country with SEVENTY PERCENT of the people against the war. And it's how we end up with so-called Democrats like Harold Ford, or Joe Lieberman, or Christopher Dodd, or Diane Feinstein, for candidates--people we can barely stand to vote for, and who actually are Republicans and even Bushites in many respects. Or all the so-called "centrists" Democrats who were born to compromise. Corporatists, really. Not a socialist bone in their bodies. WHERE are the populists? WHERE are the firebrand leftists, so badly needed these days?: WHERE are the REAL representatives of the people?

So, in this scenario, we win but not really. We may gain the benefit of people like Nancy Pelosi and John Conyers and Henry Waxman being in charge of the House. That is significant. But if other Democrats constantly stymie them, it's going to be very frustrating. Think about this: Will the best Democratic House that you can imagine in present circumstances rescind the torture bill? And what of the Senate?

Further, those of us who still object to Bushite corporations counting all our votes with TRADE SECRET, PROPRIETARY programming code, are going to hear, "What's your beef--the Democrats won, didn't they?" A carefully calculated victory for the Dems in the House, that doesn't have much clout, will be use AGAINST badly needed election reform.

It will be especially frustrating for election reformers, who know that the long term problem of direct Corporate control of our election results is extremely grave--and MUST be broken, for real democracy to happen here.

But, again, I have a strong faith in the American people. Corporations "counting" all our votes with SECRET programming is just plain unamerican and wrong. 92% of the people in a Zogy poll want TRANSPARENT vote counting--vote counting they can see and understand. THEY are going to solve this eventually.

Even with a Dem majority in the House, I don't think we can remedy the election system in Congress. Bear in mind that almost ALL of these people will be (s)elected by Diebold/ES&S, which makes Congress, which is already too far removed from ordinary people and ordinary life, nearly immune from the opinions of their constituents. Some of these office-holders would have been elected anyway. Not all. (And almost none of the Bushites, in my opinion. What a scurvy crew!) So Congress is not likely going to solve it. The best they will propose, in my opinion, is a mandated paper ballot, but that is simply not good enough, when the real problem may well be the TRADE SECRET, PROPRIETARY programming in the central tabulators! Optiscans are not okay because of this. They just scan your ballot into the rigged electronics, and turn it into manipulable electrons that are "sent" to the central tabulators, and, with zero auditing in some places--and only a 1% audit in the best states--wholesale, undetectable vote theft is still possible. Diebold/ES&S is still in control. And I'm afraid that our Corporate Democrats like it that way. They seem to see nothing wrong with secret Corporate control of the vote counting. The official Dem policy is pro-optiscans, and has NOTHING TO SAY about the central tabulators, nor about the vast corruption of the electronic voting machine boondoggle and its big, expensive electronics contracts.

So the problem will have to be solved by we, the people, at the local/state level, where we can still have something to say about things, if we put our collective minds together. Election officials live next door. State officials are not that far away. And people are roused up about this, if the huge Absentee Ballot protest is any indication--and I think it surely is. People are already protesting the machines in big numbers.

Third scenario: Diebold/ES&S back off entirely--possible, but not probable (I think the second scenario, above, is the most likely one.) We win 30-50 seats in the House. The Bushite Democrats are totally outnumbered. And we win the Senate, too (if there is any justice). That's what SHOULD happen. That's what history and precedent dictate. That's what the polls are saying. But we have a rigged election system that we must get rid of, before we see real representation of the majority of Americans in Congress.

Once we restore real elections and our right to vote--working long and hard at the local/state level--we will then find ourselves back at square one, as to the our election system. Filthy with corporate money. Dominated by corporate lobbyists, and the political debate skewed way to the right by the corporate news monopolies. But at least we will have the basic tool--TRANSPARENT elections--with which to address these problems, by electing good people who are beholden to US, not to Corporate vote counting.

56% of the American people opposed the Iraq war, way back before the invasion--Feb. '03. 70% oppose Bush and his heinous war now. And impeachment sentiment is up to 50%.

63% of the American people oppose torture "under any circumstances"--May '04.

60% to 70% of the American people disagree with Bush and the Bushites on virtually every major issue.

50% to 60% of the voters in some places are onto Diebold and ES&S--and are BOYCOTTING their machines by Absentee Ballot voting.

This is the basis of my faith in the American people. And even some apparently negative statistics support that faith. For instance, some 50% of the people still believe that Saddam had WMDs and/or had something to do with 9/11. But, you see, almost 60% still opposed the invasion, and opposition to the war now is in the 70% range. Interesting, huh? What it means to me is that the American people are struggling mightily to think for themselves! They may have some disinformation rattling around in their heads--but they STILL don't trust George Bush, and never did. They may still believe in the WMDS, but they don't think the threat warranted invasion. They may still believe in a 9/11 connection, but they obviously think it was minor, and again, not justification for a war.

And, boy, that is some fine thinking, and fine discrimination! Figure this: Ordinary Americans have been battered with 24/7 rightwing propaganda from our corporate news monopolies for six years! And that propaganda has FAILED.

You want your country back? You got it! It's been here all along. Now all we have to do is get our POWER back!

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marions ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 06:13 AM
Response to Reply #28
31. win lose or draw this time
Edited on Mon Oct-23-06 06:15 AM by marions ghost
we must keep hammering TRANSPARENT ELECTIONS.

NO MORE stupid, overpriced, auditless voting machines with proprietary software.

NO MORE registration manipulation.

NO MORE criminal harassment of voters.

NO MORE fake recounts.

NO MORE partisan hacks running the show.


We should get more evidence and information out of this election, no matter what the outcome. Hopefully more lawsuits and exposure will follow.

Keep the big picture...whatever happens. DO NOT REST on the subject of election reform even if Democrats are victorious.

:thumbsup: Thank you for all the hard work, Peace Patriot

I agree that especially where people are voting on DREs, they should do absentee ballots. In Florida and Ohio and some other "worst states" -- where absentee ballots may not be counted--voters should insist that their absentee ballots be counted and find out when and how that is being done.
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Pushed To The Left Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 03:11 AM
Response to Original message
29. A little of both. I predict I will not be totally happy or totally upset
With gubernatorial elections, ballot measures, state senate races, and most imporantly Congressional races, there is certain to be both good and bad news. Of course, if Democrats win the House or Senate, or preferably both, I will be ecstatic!
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greeneyedboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 03:45 AM
Response to Original message
30. optimism = realism, if we do the GOTV work.
i know we are all scarred from 2000 and 2004 (at least i am, and still PISSED to the core).

winning elections != doing well in polls
winning elections != a personal statement
winning elections != gambling
winning elections != winning an argument

winning elections = getting 50% plus one of the votes.

if many people are not eligible to vote, and half of those eligible don't register, and half (or more) of those registered don't vote, and you only need half of those voting, the task becomes very simple: find people who agree with you, and get them to the polls on election day. is there anyone who *doesn't* know those people are out there?

no single "surprise" or media angle or dirty trick can tip hundreds of not-even-close elections. all we need to do is keep building more momentum and GOTV and create that Democratic tsunami we have all been waiting for. (and of course safeguard it from fraud - see the resource library for hands-on tips for regular people who want to participate in that instead of nailbiting about it online.)

we may not win every close seat, but more and more are not even close.
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WernhamHogg Donating Member (378 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 06:40 AM
Response to Original message
32. Optimistic
I felt very pessimistic in 2004. Back before the 2004 election, I felt that the Repukes had just enough idiots fooled, scared, brainwashed and/or confused that they would "win" -- whether they cheated or not.

Now I have the opposite feeling. It just seems that too many people have woken up, too many people have seen the lies, the corruption, the fact that this country is on the completely wrong path and this country needs a serious change.

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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 06:57 AM
Response to Reply #32
33. Not so optimistic
I was optimistic in 2004. S.E. Ohio was awash with Kerry/Edwards signs. I couldn't find anyone that said they would vote for Bush. Just look what happened. If the voting results are altered or voters manipulated in the Republican's favor nothing will be done about it. The fascists are in control. When Glen Beck has a program on CNN the end is near.
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 09:29 AM
Response to Reply #33
41. Pshaw! Or however that's spelled. Welcome to DU, Enthusiast.
What a name compared to the message. We were all optimistic in 04 which is why this one is so important. It's a different ballgame, too. Can they realistically 'steal' from so many elections now, when people are so much more aware, and watching?
And turn that Glen Beck crap OFF! The fascists may be in control but we must do something about that, like volunteer and vote!
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republicansarewhores Donating Member (755 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 07:01 AM
Response to Original message
34. With the giggling murderer stating we are going to lose...
Edited on Mon Oct-23-06 07:03 AM by republicansarewhores
I am very freaked out that the fix is already in and hoping that enough people come out in droves that they can't possibly insist that exit polls and voter disgust polls are wrong...

RAW
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natrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 07:26 AM
Response to Original message
35. dems take some seats but not enough-they steal just enough-bs continues
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 08:38 AM
Response to Original message
38. " 'Yes' is the answer,
Edited on Mon Oct-23-06 08:39 AM by H2O Man
and you know that
for sure."
-- John Lennon

I believe that every single day it is important to appreciate the Miracle of Life. That said, I am feeling very positive about the future. Realistic, too. We are engaged in a huge uphill struggle.
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 09:23 AM
Response to Reply #38
39. Yes! H20 Man!
I am feeling hopeful also despite the uphill struggle!
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zanne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 09:25 AM
Response to Original message
40. This pessimist is very optimistic!
Alot of Democrats will be going to the polls because they're disgusted. Alot of Repulicans will be staying home for the same reason. I've already bought the champagne.
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Totallybushed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-23-06 10:13 AM
Response to Original message
42. I'm pessimistic.
We've been down this road before. Polls all favor Democratic candidates, exit polls good. Even story after story in the Repuke-controlled media about Republican corruption and incompetence. Then the vote, and once again we are Republican ass-wipe.

The polls are so bad against the Rs right now that I placing my money on a 2 seat pickup in the Senate and 5 in the House. For the 'Pubs. And I being sarcastic? I hope so. Time will tell.
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