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bryant69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 01:23 PM
Original message
Poll question: Outing Gays - a Third poll
If you knew of a gay city council man, serving in a conservative district (i.e. his sexual orientation being known would hurt him politically) who did not speak out against gays but worked in a block with people who did, and who on every issue suppored publically conservative policies, would you out him - I mean you personally.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

Sorry, polls are turned off at Level 3.

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Stand and Fight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 01:25 PM
Response to Original message
1. I would not out him on moral grounds. n/t
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beyurslf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 01:28 PM
Response to Original message
2. I would out him. Gay Repubs should be outted. No exceptions.
No reservations. No moral qualms. No hesitation. Out every one of them now.
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cwydro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #2
24. yep
gonna have to agree on that one!
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Xenotime Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #2
32. Agreed. I hate gay pugs. They are liars to the bone.
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flamin lib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 01:32 PM
Response to Original message
3. Tough one for me.
On one hand it's nobody's damn business.

On the other, being outed seems to have a beneficial effect on voting habits . . .
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 01:35 PM
Response to Original message
4. You don't know his mind
You don't know what his plans are. What if his plans include getting himself in a cherry spot within and to make some very good changes?

Plus, pointing the finger and screaming "gay" is just wrong. There is nothing wrong with being gay. Outing should not be made a punishment. That would only serve to imply that there is something wrong with being gay.
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bryant69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. If he's voting for conservative programs and along conservative principles
does tat make a decision on the practical side of things?

Or let me ask it another way, if you had a pretty good idea that his replacement would be better than he is, would that change your mind?

I admit in advance that this wasn't in the origional question.

Bryant
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #5
11. Nope
That would just be politicizing someone's sexuality on top of outing. Both are wrong.
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Ohio Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #11
20. Agreed
I am finding it very disturbing how many would happily out someone.
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #20
31. Me too
Edited on Thu Oct-12-06 02:46 PM by Juniperx
It sets back the gay movement decades, imho. What's even weirder to me is that I'm not gay! And there seem to be many gay people here to feel this activity is ok. I just feel very protective of a lot of beautiful people who worked very hard to be accepted.
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Since there is nothing wrong with being gay, there's nothing wrong
with acknowledging it.

Treating it like a special dirty secret implies there's something wrong with it.
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. There's a difference between someone acknowledging it
And pointing a finger and saying "you're gay".

Not every homosexual is comfortable with who they are. That's not entirely their fault either. You never know how a person was raised.
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #9
15. So if I mention that my coworker and her husband live near me
am I pointing my finger and saying SHE'S HETEROSEXUAL?
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #15
27. Straw man
Only if you live in a largely homosexual community that is plagued with bigotry toward heterosexuals!

:eyes:
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. You failed to answer the question.
If I acknowledge my coworker has a husband am I outing her as a heterosexual?
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #30
34. Nope
I know many a gay couple who refer to themselves as husband and wife. But if you say a woman has a girlfriend or a man has a boyfriend, you are outing for sure.

Besides, no one really cares if a person is heterosexual. The bigotry toward gays is still strong these days. Why fuel that fire?
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. LOL! I don't know what your experience is.
Mine is that I have NEVER known a gay person to refer to a male partner as a wife, or a female partner as a husband.

And as a middle aged gay man, I've known plenty of gay couples.

That said, you're jumping from one question to a different issue.

Is it outing someone as heterosexual? It sure is.

Nothing about acknowledging that gays exist fuels any fire of bigotry.

You might have a double standard, but I don't.
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #35
38. My experience is living in Long Beach CA
Were we have yearly gay pride parades and there are whole neighborhoods that are 90% homosexual. I have routinely found myself in the "inner sanctum" where I'm the only straight person in the room. At any given time I've had bosses, real estate agents, tax guys, caterers, neighbors, etc. who are gay, not to mention dozens of friends. If you don't have a few gay friends in Long Beach and you live here, you are most likely a bigot... or you don't know that one or more of your friends is gay :)

The double standard is not my own. It belongs solely to society. Bully for you for rising above. That's no guarantee that everyone or anyone else has and it really means nothing in the big picture of this line of question/poll.
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. If you perpetuate a double standard, you are responsible for it too.
I wouldn't do it.
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #39
42. There's a difference between perpetuating a double standard
And giving a bunch of bigots fodder for using that double standard against an innocent.
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 07:45 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. Giving them fodder? Aren't they bigots all on their own?
And whom precisely do you believe to be an innocent?
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-13-06 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. Anyone who hasn't been proven otherwise is innocent
That is one of the many reasons a person should not be outted. You can't do that on an assumption. You can only assume their intentions unless you can read their minds.
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-13-06 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #44
45. Now you are confusing principles of criminal proceedings
with inapplicable situations.

But you don't need to read someone's mind to out them. "He has a boyfriend" will do.
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petronius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. You're right - however, when this hypothetical person hides his
sexuality, then he is the one implying that it is shameful. If I out him, then I am the one saying that it's shameful, and I'm not willing to do that. If we truly believe that there is nothing wrong with being gay, then it is hypocritical for us to use exposing someone's homosexuality as a weapon...
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. Bingo! Well said! eom
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #10
16. To the contrary - just because someone else might think it's
shameful doesn't mean I have to play along.

Besides, if this person is so ashamed and secertive how the hell do i even know he's gay ANYWAY?
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petronius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #16
22. That's splitting hairs too finely for me...
The only reason to out someone is to use his sexuality to damage him. The fact that the damage will come from the reactions of his fellow Rs and not directly from me isn't a meaningful distinction, IMO...
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #16
29. Then what would be your motivation?
eom
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #29
33. My motivation depends on the circumstance.
If I'm talking about someone casually I'd have the same motivation as any other conversation about someone.

"Do anything this weekend?"
"Oh yeah, this weekend I had dinner with Tom and his partner Tim."
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #33
36. There's nothing casual about outing a repug
What would be your motivation in that instance?
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #36
40. A repug? Presumably my motivation would be to exploit
a political vulnerability in an enemy.
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cwydro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #6
25. thank you for saying that
I so agree...if someone thinks it is wrong to out someone - why? It totally implies that gayness is a bad thing.
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Horse with no Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 01:53 PM
Response to Original message
7. I don't care if someone gets blow jobs from their pit bull
It's their business and only theirs.
Nobody should have to share intimate details of their personal life unless they feel compelled to do so.
I mean seriously?
Why is this so important?
We need to concentrate on substance, not titillation.
Every time a Democrat mocks a Republican for being gay, it solidifies their argument that being gay is deviant. Because if it wasn't, why is it an issue? :shrug:
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bryant69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. I'm just curious
Edited on Thu Oct-12-06 02:05 PM by bryant69
I see what you are saying and I largely agree with you as it turns out - but if you look around you will find polls that show support for Michael Roger's actions in outing Gay Republicans is pretty high, while when asked if they want to make that particular sausage, enthusiasm doesn't seem as high.

I personally think that gay politicians should choose to live out of the closet, but I'm uncomfortable with forcing them out.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com
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Horse with no Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #8
14. And on the other hand...
because of the fear of being "outed", how many AWESOME people never enter the world of politics?
Change has to happen from within, but as long as homophobia exists, legislation for gays will never be passed.
However, if we didn't make a huge deal out of someone's sexual orientation (both parties do this), then some of these folks won't even try to enter the Beltway to effect change.

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eallen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 02:01 PM
Response to Original message
12. The answer depends in part on how I came by that knowledge.
Obviously, I wouldn't out someone who had told me that aspect of their life in confidence.
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La Lioness Priyanka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 02:18 PM
Response to Original message
17. i dont know. i am morally against outing...
but i am also morally opposed to homophobia...

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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 02:22 PM
Response to Original message
18. What goes around comes around
If you "out" someone against his or her will, be prepared for that person turning around and publicizing something about you that you'd rather keep secret.

Those who indulge in outing are best advised to have sqeaky-clean pasts.
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Pathwalker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 02:23 PM
Response to Original message
19. Is he a sexual predator? If so, then yes -
we need to out EVERY sexual predator with access to our children, their sexuality be damned. and since over 96% of sexual predsators are heterosexual men, odds are they're NOT gay.

You need a spot that says: I'm tired of these polls on gays. The Foley issue is a sexual predator issue, and a corruption issue, IMO, and I would like ALL of them removed from Congress. Period.
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bryant69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. I agree that Foley is a sexual preditor issue not a gay issue
But you also have the occasion of Mike Rodgers outing Republican Gays, and that's what these polls are about. But I apologize if you feel they are a waste of time.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com
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Pathwalker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. No worries. But you should know there are TWO Mike
Rogers/Rodgers. The one in Michigan is my Repuke Congressman; perhaps you've seen him recently on TV -
he's that man walking behind Foley in that video being shown all over tv. He's the ex-FBI agent looking this way, that way, every direction but at the sexual predator right in front of him. Small world, huh?

PS: I'm just tired of Mark Foley being used as an excuse to bash gays - it's as if we're supposed to feel better if he'd targeted our teenage daughters, instead of boys. Don't mind me - I'm just pissed at the Mark Foley issue focusing entirely on him being gay, when it's really, really not the point - IMO.
Besides, I'm grumpy today. Carry on!
:hi:
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Xithras Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 02:29 PM
Response to Original message
21. Absolutely NOT!
One of my boyfriends in high school blew his head off because some asshole outed him and his family found out. I decided at that moment that being out is a PERSONAL choice, and that NOBODY has ANY right to interfere with a closeted persons decision to hide from reality. Generally, people only stay in the closet if they have reason to.

As far as I'm concerned, outing a closeted gay person is a form of gay bashing, and I'd happily visit a great deal of physical harm on anybody I caught doing it. It's not just uncool, it's flat out discriminatory assault. You are deliberately hurting a person for their sexuality if you out someone, and anyone who does so should be punished harshly for it. :grr:

I have a gay relative who is solidly in the closet for reasons that I admittedly have never understood. I've talked to him for years to try and make him more confortable with himself, but as far as I'm concerned he can stay closeted until HE is ready to tell the world who he is. Nobody else has the right to make that choice.

This isn't a political issue. I'd expect this kind of crap from Republicans because they tend to be soulless and immoral anyway, but what's that say about Democrats who engage in the same thing? By outing gays, ANY GAYS, who don't want to be outed, you simply prove yourself to be as inhuman and soulless as they are.

:rant:
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truebrit71 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 02:41 PM
Response to Original message
28. Yes. Hypocrites need to be exposed.
.

Sort of like a chicken being a member of the Poultry Producers Association...doesn't make an awful lot of sense...
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Justice Is Comin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 03:22 PM
Response to Original message
37. I don't know. I'm just trying to figure out how to
make lettuce last longer in the refrigerator.
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Rosemary2205 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 03:33 PM
Response to Original message
41. Outing people is pure BS.
I don't care if they are D or R or Green or whatever. Using sexual preference as a political weapon is beyond disgusting IMHO. I feel the same way about a woman who had an abortion. People don't choose D or R based on a SINGLE issue. I know ALOT of TRUE conservatives who do actually believe Gov't should stay the hell out of our sex lives and are mad as hell that the R's have taken us through the anti-gay minefield. I also know women who are Republicans because they are fiscally conservative that are pro-choice.

The only way you have a right to out someone is to expose KNOWN hypocrisy. Which means spending a lot of time with an individual and knowing that they are planning on doing something detrimental to society based on lies and hypocrisy. Short of that IMHO, you "outing" people are WAY WAY WAY out of line.
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Ediacara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-13-06 02:00 PM
Response to Original message
46. If he votes against his own self interest
Then I think that he'll get what's coming to him, which is a public outing.

I'm not a fan of forced outings of celebrities, but I think that if you're an elected official that votes against gay rights, you've forfeited any right to outrage in this department.
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