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Joe for Clark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 05:23 PM
Original message
I think we should be aware - cause it sure seems to be MIA on
CNN - All hell is breaking loose in the North, too (Mosul Kirkuk, etc...).

It is really pretty clear - the reason those batallions were sent to fight "The Battle of Baghdad II" was because they thought (or wanted to believe) things were under control up North.

Well its not.

SO the consequences are predictable. Not even the same enemy up there - although they seem to be adopting tactics effective in the south. Our generals that went along with his whole non-sense should be court martialed. Their "inabilities" are getting alot of our kids killed and maimed.

They don't have enough soldiers to do this job - why aren't they saying so???

The silence is deafening.

Joe




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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 05:28 PM
Response to Original message
1. Yes, the silence is deafening.
My guess is they are biding their time- hoping
to keep it from the public until after the elections.
Fact is, we are in deep shit and it's going to get worse I fear.
BHN
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panader0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 05:28 PM
Response to Original message
2. I don't think any amount of soldiers would be enough
The so-called "insurgents" are the entire population. If we killed everyone, we could control Iraq. Enough people have died already. The argument is that if we leave, chaos may ensue. Chaos already exists.
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Joe for Clark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. I am VERY anit-war, no one stronger here.
But there is this serious disconnect with reality going on!!!

If you are the general officer charged with holding this - should or shouldn't - If it was your job to do it, wouldn't you be screaming your ass off???

So, where are they?? They know.

Joe
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Bouncy Ball Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #4
13. Good point, Joe.
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Joe for Clark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 08:48 PM
Response to Reply #13
23. Thank You for saying so.
Joe
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Nictuku Donating Member (907 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 05:37 PM
Response to Original message
3. They are waiting...
.... for /after/ the election?

How sick is that?
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Joe for Clark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Very.
You know what? I want Clark recalled to active duty.

NOW.

Joe

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Auntie Bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #5
27. Now that's the best idea I've heard since 2004.
Edited on Mon Oct-09-06 09:17 PM by Auntie Bush
We drafted him once...let's DO IT AGAIN! NOW! We can't wait.

On second thought...I take that back. Sounded good...but we need him as President. Damn, we need him in so many places.
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Joe for Clark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. You made me shoot hot coffee out of my nose.
hmmm - - it was worth it.

Joe

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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 05:49 PM
Response to Original message
6. Who are the factions up North? I thought the Kurds were
more or less getting on with life. More fool me.
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Joe for Clark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. Up north, it is pretty evenly divided.
Kurds, sunnis and shia.

But up north, the twist - The Arab Sunni are going after the kurds. Much different than Baghdad, really. With serious political overtones.

Turkey, our nato ally, is VERY upset. But we really do have an interest in backing kurds - who are by all accounts - the only reasonably "normal" faction in all of this Iraq non-sense.

Its like that. It is scary. Cause those people learned to use the tactics effective against us from the sunni-shia fight going on in Baghdad.

Watch the death count from the Strykers. Mosul is getting the snot knocked out of it right now.

Joe

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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Terrible news. God help those people.
We have a lot to answer for. :(
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Joe for Clark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Oh, I think Bush does have a lot to answer for.
And so do those officers that went along with this - they really do.

They knew better.

Joe
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. I imagine it must be very tough for uniformed guys to speak up.
I only pray that more of them do. And, we should do our best to support the courageous souls who somehow manage to speak truth to power.
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Joe for Clark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. I think - it is kinda like this -
It is more censored now than I have ever seen - for our kids, calling home. It is true, but then again - they are OUR kids. The kids will speak up. Its the whole video game generation thing here.

You know why I am so sure Mosul is going bad?? There is stuff on AP and Reuters - not near as bad as hearing my kid say thank god he god moved south to Baghdad (from Mosul) you know??

We are building walls and entrenchments around cities now. Like WWI - Really, kind of like a bad flashback from the 13th century.

And if that is happening - where in the hell are the officers in this??? Where??

Better than 500,000 kids got rotated in and out now. Thats a million "parents" and god knows how many other family.

I think this is the bottom line here.

Joe











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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. I hope your kid is safe, Joe.
What they don't tell us is more important than what they do tell us. We know that by now.

Safe passage to all in danger.
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Joe for Clark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 07:15 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. Talked to him Sunday - he is OK.
At least as of Sunday.

Many of my family passed on now, the WWII vets have. They know fighting in a war and they are so looking over his shoulder here. I think, he has some of the best fighters this country ever produced looking over his shoulder right now. I do believe this.

Thanks for asking.

Joe



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bluerum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 05:54 PM
Response to Original message
7. This war has been a political tool for the pubs. It is pure obscenity.
Repeat - it is pure obscenity. In my mind it is far worse than fifty year old men cavorting with 16 year old male pages.

Maybe the pubs expected to get some oil out of the war. You know, to enrich the oil companies. Not that soldiers for oil is a whole lot better than war for political leverage and manipulation.

Not that the pubs would actually admit to getting any oil out of it. For all the American people know, Helliburton could be shipping oil out by the tanker full - we would never know it if they were.
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Joe for Clark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. Look, I believe this was an "oil grab" attempt.
I do.

But seperate from this - Those officers had charge of OUR kids and they had an OBLIGATION to at least ask for the TOOLS THEY NEEDED to carry out a mission. It is different.

We can all agree or disagree with the mission, I guess. BUT they cannot go back and demand a "do-over" here. If they miscalculated without even a protest, kids are going to die.

Man, that was their job - they needed to say if they needed more people BEFORE the fight. It is a little late after its over.

Joe

I will say, I think the field grade and junior officers did their job well. I have a real problem with the general officers though. And I think their peers do, too.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. Didn't Rumsfeld fire or intimidate general officers who tried
to talk sense to him?

That bastard will fry in hell.
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Joe for Clark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. You know, I hear this alot.
But damn, if that is all our officers have in them - they should go fight for another country.

When OUR officers take the oath - they swear to protect the constituition first - and THEY MEAN IT.

In any event - they have an ultimate responsibility to the men in their charge. And if they fail in that, they should go sell used cars somewhere. Their forebearers took this charge very seriously. AND BECAUSE THEY DID - we don't speak German today. Too many of them died because they believed this with all their heart.

There is no room to wiggle here. They do the right thing or they better resign - that is all.

That is certainly how I look at it, anyway.

Joe



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bluerum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #12
19. How do you know (that at least some of) the generals did not ask
Edited on Mon Oct-09-06 07:13 PM by bluerum
for what they needed? They can't even get budgets approved to do what the defense dept. is asking them to do. I have heard that there is continuing friction between the generals who push the budgets up for approval and get them kicked back for being too high. They are asking for money but are being denied by the defense dept. who expects them to do more with less.

And yes, clearly an oil grab. No quotes needed.

I am just suggesting that we have no idea if oil is being covertly shipped back here or anywhere else for that matter. Helliburton or any power structure in the country could be selling Iraqi oil through Saudi Arabia and we would never know it.
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Joe for Clark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. Because if they thought is wrong, so strongly -
They'd resign before they would ever go along with it.

Some did - too many didn't.

Oh, I really know. And you don't have to be the son of some officers to KNOW that.

Joe
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bluerum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. If half of them resigned,, well,,, half of the officers would be gone!
I think when the saw Collin Powell getting sucked into the machine they just got demoralized and said what the hell - I got 2, 5, 10 (whatever) more years and then I retire. Everyman for himself.

That's what this administration has bred.
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Joe for Clark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 09:04 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. Depends on how seriously they took that oath, right??
I think the day we see so many officers resign we'd see the collapse of the administration first.

At least, that is what our forefathers thought would happen.

Joe
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Joe for Clark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. Yes, and I think Powell was at least was a a good officer.
And I am pulling for him to rise above this garbage.

I really still have hope for him.

Joe

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ContraBass Black Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 06:46 PM
Response to Original message
16. What exactly is going on, and in which parts of the country?
:shrug:
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Joe for Clark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #16
22. Certainly, the main push is in Baghdad -
But it was based on the assumption that the north was stable -

Guess that was wrong.

Watch Mosul and Kirkuk - that is where strength was pulled to go south. That is where "problems" are coming up right now.

I don't know how to be more direct.

Joe
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hootinholler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 10:00 PM
Response to Original message
29. Actually the Generals can't publicly demand more troops...
It would be considered contempt of POTUS, and a punishable offense.

-Hoot
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-10-06 05:36 AM
Response to Reply #29
30. You know, that never occurred to me. Could they request in private
and, um, LEAK their request?

I don't know how BushCo does it. The intelligence community is pissed at them. The military must also be pissed at them. Who do they actually have besides the multinationals?

Too bad we don't have a real Congress any more. We could use one right about now.
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