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Coexist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 09:18 AM
Original message
On Kerry, Bush and North Korea - PLEASE WATCH AND REMEMBER!
Edited on Mon Oct-09-06 09:47 AM by FLDem5
The debate between Kerry and Bush, courtesy of Democracy Now
Listen
Watch
Read



JIM LEHRER: Mr. President, do you believe that diplomacy and sanctions can resolve the nuclear problems with North Korea and Iran? Take them in any order you would like.

GEORGE W. BUSH: North Korea, first, I do. Let me say, I certainly hope so. Before I was sworn in, the policy of this government was to have bilateral negotiations with North Korea. And we signed an agreement with North Korea that my administration found out that was not being honored by the North Koreans. And so I decided that a better way to approach the issue was to get other nations involved, just besides us. And in Crawford, Texas, Jiang Zemin and I agreed that the nuclear-weapons-free peninsula, Korean Peninsula, was in his interest and our interest and the worlds interest. And so we began a new dialogue with North Korea, one that included not only the United States, but now China. And Chinas got a lot of influence over North Korea, some ways more than we do. As well, we included South Korea, Japan and Russia. So now there are five voices speaking to Kim Jong Il, not just one. And so if Kim Jong Il decides again to not honor an agreement, hes not only doing injustice to America, hed be doing injustice to China, as well. And I think this will work. Its not going to work if we open up a dialogue with Kim Jong Il. Thats what he wants. He wants to unravel the six-party talks, or the five-nation coalition thats sending him a clear message. On Iran, I hope we can do the same thing, continue to work with the world to convince the Iranian mullahs to abandon their nuclear ambitions. We worked very closely with the foreign ministers of France, Germany and Great Britain, who have been the folks delivering the message to the mullahs that if you expect to be part of the world of nations, get rid of your nuclear programs. The IAEA is involved. Theres a special protocol recently been passed that allows for inspections. I hope we can do it. And weve got a good strategy.

JIM LEHRER: Senator Kerry, 90 seconds.

JOHN KERRY: With respect to Iran, the British, French, and Germans were the ones who initiated an effort without the United States, regrettably, to begin to try to move to curb the nuclear possibilities in Iran. I believe we could have done better. I think the United States should have offered the opportunity to provide the nuclear fuel, test them, see whether or not they were actually looking for it for peaceful purposes. If they werent willing to work a deal, then we could have put sanctions together. The president did nothing. With respect to North Korea, the real story: We had inspectors and television cameras in the nuclear reactor in North Korea. Secretary Bill Perry negotiated that under President Clinton. And we knew where the fuel rods were. And we knew the limits on their nuclear power. Colin Powell, our Secretary of State, announced one day that we were going to continue the dialogue of working with the North Koreans. The president reversed it publicly while the president of South Korea was here. And the president of South Korea went back to South Korea bewildered and embarrassed because it went against his policy. And for two years, this administration didnt talk at all to North Korea. While they didnt talk at all, the fuel rods came out, the inspectors were kicked out, the television cameras were kicked out. And today, there are four to seven nuclear weapons in the hands of North Korea. That happened on this presidents watch. Now, that, I think, is one of the most serious, sort of reversals or mixed messages that you could possibly send.

<snip>
TIM SHORROCK: I thought it was very interesting that Korea got so much attention. I must say that John Kerry put out a very solid proposal for dealing with the crisis on the Korean peninsula, which is direct negotiations with North Korea over every issue, he named the armistice, all kinds of issues that could be brought up that North Koreans have been desperately asking to talk to, with the U.S. on a bilateral basis. What was very striking about Bush was his focus on the six-way talks as if the whole purpose of diplomacy was to have talks rather than have peace. These talks were last -- were kind of a compromise after Russia, Japan, China, and South Korea, you know, virtually begged the United States to open direct negotiations with North Korea. So, when it became very clear that the Bush administration had no intention of doing that, and would not do that, they agreed to the six-way talks which have made some progress, but you're never going to get a resolution without direct discussions between the government in Pyongyang and the government in Washington.


Imagine that - Kerry and the Democrats were right - AGAIN!

MUCH MORE - an excellent compilation from ProSense in GDP. The links are all there - please visit the thread and follow them:

Bush admin's arrogance on North Korea; Kerry nails Bolton, SFRC hearings
Posted by ProSense on Mon Oct-09-06 08:56 AM

May 30, 2004:

Kerry also accused the administration of having no plan to deal with North Korea's rush to build its nuclear weapons arsenal. He derided the Bush administration's long effort to set up six-nation talks to resolve the impasse over North Korea's nuclear ambitions as a "fig leaf" designed to cover up its failure to have a coherent policy.

Kerry said he would immediately begin bilateral negotiations with North Korea -- a goal the Pyongyang government has long sought. But, perhaps in a nod to the sensitivities of the Japanese, the South Koreans and the Chinese, he said he would not abandon the six-nation talks.

September 13, 2004:

Kerry did charge "that this is one of the most serious failures and challenges to the security of the United States, and it really underscores the way in which George Bush talks the game but doesn't deliver." He continued, according to Sanger: "'They have taken their eye off the real ball,' Mr. Kerry said, his voice almost shaking in anger. 'They took it off in Afghanistan and shifted it to Iraq. They took it off in North Korea and shifted it to Iraq.'"

September 14, 2004:
For this reason, Mr. Bush stopped diplomatic relations with North Korea early in his presidency. The cold diplomatic relations increased tensions.

Jack Pritchard, who at the time of Mr. Bush's "Axis of Evil" speech was special U.S. envoy to North Korea, said in an interview that the president's blunt language "ultimately did undermine" his diplomatic efforts.

Kerry says diplomacy is compromise, inferring that Mr. Bush's policy with North Korea is responsible for "letting a nuclear nightmare develop," as Kerry is quoted in Monday's New York Times.

<snip>
SFRC hearings, July 27, 2006:
KERRY: Well, with respect to North Korea, let's look at that for a minute. Russia and the South Koreans were unwilling to join us, isn't that correct, with respect to the sanction effort?

BOLTON: That's clearly not correct, because they did. And in fact, we worked very closely with the Russians in the negotiation, 11 days of very intense negotiation to get Resolution 1695, and worked very closely with the Republic of Korea's mission to the U.N. to get their agreement to the resolution, as well.

KERRY: I beg to differ with you, Mr. Ambassador.

<snip>
KERRY: Are you prepared to go to bilateral talks?

BOLTON: Quite the contrary. We said expressly that what we wanted from North Korea was not simply a return to the six-party talks, but an implementation of the September 2005 joint statement from the six-party talks which would mean their dismantlement of their nuclear weapons program.

KERRY: But this has been going on for five years, Mr. Ambassador.

BOLTON: It's the nature of multilateral negotiations, Senator.

KERRY: Why not engage in a bilateral one and get the job done? That's what the Clinton administration did.

BOLTON: Very poorly, since the North Koreans violated the agreed framework almost from the time it was signed. And I would also say, Senator, that we do have the opportunity for bilateral negotiations with North Korea in the context of the six-party talks, if North Korea would come back to them.

KERRY: Mr. Ambassador, at the time -- Secretary Perry has testified before this committee, as well as others -- they knew that there would be the probability they would try to do something outside of the specificity of the agreement.

But the specificity of the agreement was with respect to the rods and the inspections and the television cameras and the reactor itself.

BOLTON: Senator, the agreed framework requires North Korea and South Korea to comply with the joint North-South denuclearization agreement, which in turn provides no nuclear weapons programs on the Korean Peninsula.

So it was not limited only to the plutonium reprocessing program.

KERRY: Mr. Ambassador, the bottom line is that no plutonium was reprocessed under that agreement. No plutonium was reprocessed until the cameras were kicked out, the inspectors were kicked out, the rods were taken out, and now they have four times the nuclear weapons they had when you came on watch.

BOLTON: Because the North Koreans...

<snip>
KERRY: No, because no talks were going on for the first couple of years, and then the six-party talks were a cover for not dealing with bilateral talks. I understand.

BOLTON: The principal reason that we haven't had six-party talks in 10 months is because North Korea won't accept China's invitation to come to the talks. But we have made it clear to them repeatedly that they could have and they have had bilateral conversations with the United States in the context of the six-party talks.

BOLTON: So the question as to why the six-party talks have not proceeded here, I think lies squarely in Pyongyang.

KERRY: Well, the world and North Korea are getting more dangerous, as you resist the notion of engaging in any kind of bilateral effort as an administration -- not you, personally, I guess, but...

BOLTON: Senator, really, it's hard to understand how you can't look at the notion of conducting the bilateral conversations in the six-party talks and not say that North Korea has an opportunity to make its case to us.

KERRY: Sir, with all due respect, I mean, you know -- what I've seen work and not work over the course of the years I've been here depends on what kind of deal you're willing to make or not make and what your fundamental policies are.

If you're a leader in North Korea, looking at the United States, and you've seen the United States attack Iraq on presumptions of weapons of mass destruction that didn't exist, if you announce a preemptive strategy of regime change, if you are pursuing your own new nuclear weapons, bunker busting nuclear weapons, and you're sitting in another country, you would have a perception of threat that makes you make a certain set of decisions.

And historically throughout the Cold War, that drove the United States and the then-Soviet Union to escalate and escalate. And first one did and then the other.

In fact -- in fact -- in every single case, we were the first, with the exception of two particular weapons systems to develop a nuclear breakthrough first. They followed -- until ultimately, President Reagan, a conservative president, and President Gorbachev said we're going to come down in Reykjavik to no weapons.

So we reversed 50 years of spending money and chasing this thing.

I would respectfully suggest to you that North Korea is sitting there making a set of presumptions. And unless you begin to alter some of the underlying foundation of those presumptions, you're stuck.

The problem is, we're stuck too, as a consequence. And a lot of us feel very, very deeply that the six-party talks have never been real and never been a way of achieving this goal. And as long as we're on this course, we're stuck.

COLEMAN: The chair would note that it's been extremely generous.

<snip>
KERRY: Sir, I know what a terrible regime it is. I understand that.

BOLTON: We have tried to give them the chance, through the six- party talks, to end that isolation. And as I say, for 10 months, they haven't even been willing to go back to Beijing.

KERRY: I have to tell you something. About three years ago or four years ago, I can't remember precisely when, the North Koreans were casting about here in Washington, asking people who do we talk to? They were looking for a deal. And the administration just blanked them. There was no willingness to do this.

This is pre going to the six-party talks. Then we get to the six-party talks, and we've gone through a series of evolutions since then.

So with all due respect, a lot of folks think there's a different course. You don't. The administration doesn't. But I think it's important to talk about it, and I think it's important to lay it out there.


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billybob537 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 09:20 AM
Response to Original message
1. BUSH
Shrinking in the polls.
POOR pathetic little lying coward.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #1
13. Yes, and people would know it if Dems could learn how to say WE WERE RIGHT
We were right then and we are still right now.
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krkaufman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 08:03 PM
Response to Reply #13
28. Oh effing please. The Dems say it all the time....
... the media just doesn't cover it.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-10-06 09:01 AM
Response to Reply #28
34. Well, maybe they could learn to say it in UNISON and cut through by
being repetitive and mutually supportive for a change.
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krkaufman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-10-06 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. Through what medium? Dems don't get the same media time...
... so there's less opportunity for repetition, along with the fact that there *is* no left-of-center equivalent of Fox News to seed the echo chamber.

The problem goes so far beyond Democratic "unison." In fact, personally, I'd prefer that the Democratic Party remain independent -- as opposed to the authoritarian approach of the modern Republican Party. I was just having this conversation with a friend over the weekend, when he was using words like "fragmented" and "needed to be cohesive" to describe the Dems. I believe these terms represent Right Wing framing, and put forth the notion that political parties should be authoritarian. I say B-S.

Democracy is alive today within the Democratic Party, and I fear the day the it becomes the top-down machine the pundits are pushing it towards.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-10-06 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #36
38. No - they shouldn't, but it's not authoritarian to agree DEMS ARE RIGHT
on an issue when they obviously are. Clinton, Gore and Kerry were all right in their assessment of North Korea.
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krkaufman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-10-06 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. On *that* I would wholly agree.
I think Dems are too often trying to separate themselves from the herd, in order to be the frontrunner for the Pres nomination, that they neglect to complement each other.

(Though I still think there are fewer media opportunities for Dems, and zero echo chamber.)
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 09:22 AM
Response to Original message
2. K&R...n/t
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bdamomma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 09:24 AM
Response to Original message
3. we were on top of things
before Bush crushed everything, what does anyone except from Bush a arrogant and ignorant man who isolates everyone and does not have any diplomacy.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 09:27 AM
Response to Original message
4. Check out the Bolton hearing TRANSCIPT on North Korea - BushInc was NAILED
Edited on Mon Oct-09-06 09:27 AM by blm
then, but apparently media didn't think it was important enough to discuss.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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Coexist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 09:30 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. excellent compilation - maybe it will be discussed NOW!
this entire thing is surreal.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. Maybe you can lift some and add it to your post. People have to understand
the actual story before they can counter the certain onslaught of lies to come. The more eyeballs the better.

I am sure ProSense would appreciate it if you did add the info.
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Coexist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 09:50 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. I added some - I hope ProSense doesn't mind
Thanks for the idea.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 09:56 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. No problem. Pro is among the group that wants HARD INFO SHARED
and disseminated and believes in it strongly. IMO, it's what DU has the capability of doing best.
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buzzard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #4
23. I remember listenig to him and thinking he was exactly right, I taped the
debate, time to watch it again and remember why I really liked Kerry. I remember I like really smart men.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-10-06 10:23 PM
Response to Reply #23
41. Heh - corpmedia here chose to ignore what was said - and can't remember
anything about the debates to reference it for their NK articles today.
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_dynamicdems Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 09:31 AM
Response to Original message
6. Once again, John Kerry was right.
Bushco lied to us about Iraq's nuclear capabilities all the while ignoring the real threats around the world: N. Korea, Iran and Afghanistan where Islamic militants are still poised on the border of a country with a full arsenal of nukes.

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MiniMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 10:33 AM
Response to Reply #6
12. Kerry was right in everything he said in the debates, unlike *
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INdemo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 09:46 AM
Response to Original message
8. Right again.. yes but its all Clinton's fault because he didn't do
enough..Now I dont usually watch Fox but happen to catch some idiot saying that Clinton didn't do enough and that's why we have this problem....There is just no end to blaming Clinton for everything..
Do you think its possible for the media to show this transcript..never
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. The media won't bring up what was being said throughout the campaign,
because that campaign never even happened according to the way they chose to cover it.

Kerry was always riding Bush's ass on North Korea, yet you can barely find any coverage of the issue from the mainstream media sources.
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durrrty libby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #10
14. I really hate that me and mine suffer because of the rampant idiocy
of so many buffoons in our country
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. It all really comes down to HOW the media uses OUR AIRWAVES to entrap the
American people into the storylines that THEY CHOOSE for us to hear.
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focusfan Donating Member (884 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-10-06 05:36 AM
Response to Reply #10
32. Kieth Olberman might he has talked about other things after they we brough
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graywarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 11:27 AM
Response to Original message
16. I am just astounded with the information that Kerry supplied
during those debates and that fuckwad piece of fucking shit asshole still won. Your post is excellent and really got me off the pity pot today...fucking pisses me the fuck of that that miserable, selfish arrogant little prick is in charge of whatever the fuck is gonna happen over the next two years.

Jesus, I'm on a roll now. Time to go for a 5 mile run.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. It is astounding - and the media rejected the idea of any discussion of
what Kerry put forth during those debates.
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Coexist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #16
21. I am so tired of what Kerry said, coming true -
you need an intelligent person who can see the big picture, has a plan beyond their own ambition, and is shrewd, thoughtful, and willing to surround him/herself with people who deserve their jobs on experience and merit, not sycophants, to lead a great nation.

You do NOT need a guy who would be cool to have a beer with. Who lives on one-line solutions to complex problems (i.e. "I'll tell them to turn the spigot on.").

I just hope that the electorate finally "gets it" after this.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. I think Katrina took care of that - competence MATTERS now more than ever.
Edited on Mon Oct-09-06 02:51 PM by blm
Sadly for Katrina victims, Kerry also during that campaign told gulf coast audiences that he would immediately fund the 18billion dollar plan to strengthen their coastline. He said there was already a plan in place for it, but it was never funded.

He knew about it from his environmental efforts - I'd bet Bush never even picked up one memo dealing with the gulf coast and its vulnerabilities.

Imagine what a difference a 7 month jump on Katrina could have made.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 11:33 AM
Response to Original message
17. Thanks! Awesome thread! n/t
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Sensitivity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 11:53 AM
Response to Original message
18. How strong and incisive: Dem would do well to put KERRY OUT FRONT
in response to the current crisis.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #18
24. And send video montages of how many times Kerry brought up Bush's bungling
of North Korea.
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Coexist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. I tried to get through to Ed Schultz today to ask his staff to play this
but couldn't. Maybe we should email it to all progressive radio personalities.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. Seems like it should be a slam dunk to play the audio. It seems hard for
Dems in general to just put their foot down and say WE WERE RIGHT! We were rght then, and we are still right today!
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_dynamicdems Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-10-06 04:08 AM
Response to Reply #27
30. I'd like to see Keith Olbermann do something like this.
His anti-Bush montages are the best I've seen.
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w8liftinglady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-10-06 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #30
37. send the link to him.I did
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_dynamicdems Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-10-06 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #37
40. Thanks, that is a good idea.
He's the only one on television who would dare mention this. I LOVE KO!
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TayTay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 11:56 AM
Response to Original message
19. Good find.
Sigh! Democrats are so much better at this stuff. Bush truly is a dangerous idiot.
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halobeam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 03:46 PM
Response to Original message
25. K & R
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Shredr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 04:50 PM
Response to Original message
26. It is so obvious that Chimpy is being fed what to say
He pauses at odd moments, then continues, just as if he's listening to someome in his ear.
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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-10-06 05:21 AM
Response to Original message
31. Yet another showcase of how DISASTROUS this admin.
has been to our security, and the security of the world. America has unleashed a monster.
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w8liftinglady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-10-06 06:05 AM
Response to Original message
33. FlDem5-this is an excelent post-
Edited on Tue Oct-10-06 06:07 AM by w8liftinglady
I am showing these to the usual people-Olbermann,randi rhodes.feel free to add on!
KOlbermann@msnbc.com
rrhodes@airamerica.com
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ElboRuum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-10-06 09:24 AM
Response to Original message
35. Three intellectual steps helpful to being right...
1. Be honest with yourself
2. Be honest with others
3. Think things through to avoid being really stupid.

Did * ever have a chance of being right? About anything?
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