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OK, let's assume NK blew a nuke...I say so what?

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karlrschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 10:33 PM
Original message
OK, let's assume NK blew a nuke...I say so what?
Maybe they have 2,3 or 10 more...just what the hell would they actually DO with them? Is there anyone on the planet with a TV who doesn't realize that if they tossed one into another country, their own
would be turned into a crater? The country isn't much bigger than Nebraska. If their leadership is
truly insane and suicidal, they'd probably get their wish...but for what upside? We made it through
the "MAD" era without any of the true major powers going nuts and there are at least 9 or 10 other nations with A-bombs... aside from the idiocy of maintaining these arsenals, what specific dangers
are manifested by this minor revelation?
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C_U_L8R Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 10:34 PM
Response to Original message
1. Freeps are gloating
saying they just won the house back.

The poor deluded repukes haven't realized
that this is yet another Bush failure.
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Subdivisions Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 10:48 PM
Response to Reply #1
14. Bullseye! Bahahahhahahhahah! Another Bush failure indeed!
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John Gauger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #14
19. This really isn't a time to be laughing.
I find their moronity amusing as well, but Bush has really done yet another horrible disservice to this country. We really are starting to approach the point of no return.
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truthisfreedom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #1
31. because of the security issue? i doubt it. the Democtratic Party has to
make some very sturdy moves tonight in preparation for tomorrow's news. we need to put in place a series of announcements that make it clear that we will NEVER take our eye off the ball like bushco has. that the distractions in this government caused by constant corruption and scandal and sexual perversion and attacking the WRONG COUNTRY are a REPUBLICAN PROBLEM, and we will NEVER let that happen again.
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #1
45. Yes. It "proves the world is still a dangerous place"
Which is why we need Delbert McDumbass Bananagrabber in charge, right?

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Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 12:07 AM
Response to Reply #1
53. Won it back to do what?
Let Iran explode a bomb? The pukes don't have such a good track record.
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Beetwasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 10:36 PM
Response to Original message
2. It's A Big Story and A Even More Massive, Epic Bush Foreign Policy Failure
Edited on Sun Oct-08-06 10:36 PM by Beetwasher
And it certainly reinforces the notion that Chimpy and the Repubs have made the world infinitely more dangerous.
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cynatnite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 10:36 PM
Original message
I think it's worth a lot of concern...
S.Korea and N. Korea are still in at state of war. We also have 37,000 troops there. N.Korea has a crazy dictator. Reactions from China and Japan won't be positive. This isn't good at all.

Not counting the fact that we have an insane man with his finger on the button here in the US.
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BushOut06 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 10:39 PM
Response to Original message
6. North Korea could have wiped us out already if they wanted that
The 37,000 troops we have in South Korea would be little more than a speed bump if North Korea launched an all-out invasion. Seoul is well within North Korea's artillery range, and they already had chemical weapons they could use if they wanted to.

This notion that Kim Jong Il is crazy is ridiculous. If you've ever watched any documentaries about him, or read any books about him, he's highly intelligent. He's eccentric, but that doesn't mean he's crazy.
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cynatnite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. No, I have't watched documentaries or read books...
about him.

I do think this is worthy of concern.
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MannyGoldstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #6
16. I Basically Agree
But I am compelled to quibble: 37,000 entrenched US troops and their attending airpower would be a hell of a lot more than a speed bump - it would require many hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions of N. Korean troops to go past that.

However, it doesn't take much of a missile to lob a nuclear warhead the 33 miles from the border to Seoul. That would be an astonishing catastrophe.
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BushOut06 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. I've heard many military folks use that 'speed bump' phrase
Most military people that I've talked to about Korea - many of whom have actually been stationed there - admit that our presence there is more for show and not really much of an impediment. Sure, we'd put up a valiant fight - but with the amount of manpower and artillery that North Korea has at the border, our forces would be very hard pressed to do very much. To be honest, their mission isn't to defeat any North Korean invasion, it's primarily to try to slow them down until reinforcements can arrive.

Given how stretched thin our military is right now, I think our troops in South Korea would be fucked.
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cynatnite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:01 PM
Response to Reply #18
27. My uncle said the same thing when he was stationed there...
This was around ten or fifteen years ago. He said if N.Korea ever invaded the south, he used the same exact language. I remember him telling me that gunshots across the DMZ was not that uncommon...at least then it wasn't.
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JanusAscending Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #18
33. This is the TRUTH !
A few years ago, my daughter was entertaining the troops in Korea with the USO at Christmas. They were allowed to tour the country, and were taken to the border at the DMZ. She came home and said "Mom, I saw those North Korean Sentry's at the border, and they scared the shit out of me, they are a force to be reckoned with"!! My girl had been in the Army prior to this, and is not easily frightened. I'll take her word for it!!!! :scared: I just quit smoking. It's been 4 weeks now,.....and I need a cigarette!!!!
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John Gauger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 10:59 PM
Response to Reply #16
23. Millions? As in greater than two million?
Edited on Sun Oct-08-06 11:06 PM by John Gauger
Versus 37,000? Are you aware that a million is one thousand times greater than a thousand? Just try to picture that happening: 2mil+ versus 37 thousand. That's a lot of guys just standing around waiting to fight. I think that's a little outlandish, to say the very least.
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MannyGoldstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #23
41. Yeah, I Do Realize That 10e6 is 10e3 X 10e3
1. It's really, really difficult to dig out well-dug-in forces, particularly without good airpower.
2. We have all kinds of aircraft with lots of precision munitions that do an excellent job of keeping the other guys from moving. They move, they die.

But I hope that neither one of us ever gets to know for sure if we're right or wrong.
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John Gauger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #41
54. aye
not much more to say than that.
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Amonester Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 11:51 AM
Response to Original message
57. What in hell R "we" doing in South Korea??
Why do we have to pay for the Koreans's "safety" with our tax-money and almost 50,000,000 Americans uninsured whenever they'd happen to get sick??

Bring the girls 'n boys back home!!

Now if the fool(s) in the North wanna play boom-boom with China...

Well: good freaking luck to them!!

The freaking same if they wanna "play" boom-boom with US!!

Bring the girls 'n boys back home!!

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Singular73 Donating Member (999 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 10:36 PM
Response to Original message
3. Uhmmm..
Yeah, an arms race in Asia is a good thing....

This is very, very bad.

So here;s what Bush will do:

Run to the UN.

And the UN will sit around for a week, figuring out what resolution to pass.

And nothing else will happen.

And the freepers heads will explode.
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BushOut06 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 10:36 PM
Response to Original message
4. Every country that Bush threatens should have nukes
Too bad Saddam didn't have nukes. Notice how Bush invaded the country that he felt would be the "easiest"? North Korea rightly felt threatened by Bush and his bellicose attitude. No wonder Iran is seeking to build nukes. If I felt like Bush was going to invade my country, I'd want to have nuclear weapons as a sort of deterence.
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #4
12. Wow. A few years of bush and DUers favor nuclear proliferation...
wonderful...

Yet another value tossed out the door by DUers when under stress.

Sheesh.
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John Gauger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #12
24. I know
It's truly very sad. I really don't know what else to say.
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BushOut06 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:01 PM
Response to Reply #12
26. As long as one country has nukes and is threatening other countries...
then sure. Ordinarily I'd be against nuclear proliferation. But to paraphrase the elder statesman Ozzy, if the bomb is the only thing that keeps the peace then thank God for the bomb.
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #26
30. "Ordinarily I'd be against nuclear proliferation." - ROFLMAO!!!!
Except for being so sad, it's really, really, funny.
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John Gauger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #30
34. Everything is sad right now.
It's going to be quite a while before we have anything to smile about.
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David__77 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 10:56 PM
Response to Reply #4
20. you're right.
no one should submit to US nuclear blackmail. self-defense is a legitimate national right.
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pampango Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #20
56. What does NK have that anyone wants?
I understand why Kim thinks he has a pretty good gig as royal dictator and why he doesn't want to lose it, but give me a break. He has no oil, other than what China supplies to them. Don't need to bring democracy to the Korean peninsula :sarcasm: since it is already there. The only thing he has that anyone cares about is the nuclear weapons that he has to defend the country against those who want to take all that NK has.

You are right. Every country has a legitimate right of national self-defense. In Kim's case it is his right of personal self-defense.
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Jcrowley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 10:38 PM
Response to Original message
5. More likely
Only one country has actually ever used nuclear weapons, on 5 seperate occasions.

Complete List of All U.S. Nuclear Weapons

http://nuclearweaponarchive.org/Usa/Weapons/Allbombs.ht...
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spoony Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 10:41 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. Five?
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Jcrowley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. Only counting
those that affected civilian populations directly. If we expand that definition (Downwinders, Nuclear tests, etc.) the list grows.

Japan (Hiroshima, Nagasaki), Iraq, Kosovo, Afghanistan, Iraq (again)
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spoony Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #13
21. I'm familiar with the Japanese bombings...
Never heard of nuking Iraq, Kosovo, or Afghanistan. Not being snotty, I've really never encountered that idea. Are we just talking about depleted uranium or full-on fission/fusion bombs?
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John Gauger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #13
29. Those last four are not nuclear but radiological weapons
there is a difference. Nuclear involve a nuclear esplosion. Radiological involves radiation. DU is not a nuclear weapon because there is no nuclear chain reaction. Just becuase there is uranium involved doesn't make it a nuke.
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Jcrowley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #29
35. My bad
You are correct it was my imprecise language that caused the confusion. Should have used radiological weaponry.

Main point being the Pentagon and it's errand boys are the more imminent threat as the rest of the world will testify even as the US media hologram programs it's citizens to look for the boogeyman.
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John Gauger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #35
40. That's right
Sorry, I lost sight of the point there. Really, it's my bad. "Our" government is the greatest threat to world peace and to our security.
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 10:40 PM
Response to Original message
7. And they say Democrats aren't serious... pSHAW!!!
sheesh.
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 10:44 PM
Response to Original message
10. Bushitler let a fart! Bout the size of it. I say bullshit.
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BrotherBuzz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 10:46 PM
Response to Original message
11. It will be a big story when Rove et al. get to work....
and Bush* starts the spin. They would like it to be above the fold for a bunch of news cycles, and in their wet dreams, through November.

But beyond that, I'm with you, "so what?". :shrug:
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 10:48 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. Looks like it already is. Now on every channel. Eeeew. boogie man.
Fear Fear Fear. :shrug:
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BrotherBuzz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #15
32. That's just the teaser while they set the stage
Just wait until the curtain raises and the real show begins. I believe this show will command grave reviews in Peoria. You know what I mean, Vern?

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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #32
43. Yeppers Know what you mean.
:rofl:
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zulchzulu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 10:52 PM
Response to Original message
17. North Korea blowing up a nuke is like...
Edited on Sun Oct-08-06 10:53 PM by zulchzulu
... some punk blowing up some firecrackers in the school playground while a fully armed SWAT team with 300 submachine guns and rocket launchers watch nearby and at the ready for ANY disturbance.

Poof!

What playground?
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Bigmack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 10:58 PM
Response to Original message
22. Massive Retaliation & MAD...
Mutual Assured Destruction.

They told us during the Cold War that those two things would protect us from the godless Commies.

Are those two theories out the window now.

NK has a few nukes, we have thousands.

The Rooskies had thousands, and they sure as hell didn't attack.

I'm more worried about Whoever bleeding us dry economically and militarily in clusterfucks like Iraq.
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karlrschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #22
38. Heh, that was more or less my point, delivered somewhat obliquely
but hit the target. :-)
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:00 PM
Response to Original message
25. Just more evidence that the so-called "grownups" running our government
from the crony-ponies drunk on no-bid contracts to the glassy-eyed end time Jesus freaks who WANT the shit to hit the fan... are asleep at the wheel.

We've had 6 years of mind-boggling incompetence at the helm of this nation.
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Poiuyt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:02 PM
Response to Original message
28. Does NK have any kind of delivery system?
I seem to recall that their missile tests a few months ago were not successful
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #28
36. Nope. Not yet. 10 ton bomb on a donkey cart. 1 donkey to a
Edited on Sun Oct-08-06 11:10 PM by lonestarnot
row boat transfer with 50 rowers.
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John Gauger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #28
37. None that work.
But this is getting more serious every day. We really need someone who knows his/her shit to help us out of this. I'm no fan of Clinton, but I'm all for repealling the 22nd Amendment so he can fucking save our asses.
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AnnieBW Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #28
47. Short-range missiles
They have short range missiles that can easily reach the South and Japan. Their medium-range missile was the one that failed.
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #28
55. If they develop a small enough weapon it could
possibly be smuggled into the target country.
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Eugene Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:10 PM
Response to Original message
39. It will drive Japan to rearm.
Japan was already seriously considering rearmament.
A North Korean nuke will make that more urgent.
A rearmed Japan will make its neighbors very nervous.

Also Japan and South Korea have the know-how to make
their own nuclear arms. An arms race with an
irrational actor like North Korea could make
Asia a very dangerous place.

At the very least, North Korean nukes are destabilizing.
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paparush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:19 PM
Response to Original message
42. We will learn that through secret negotiations, Bush gave $$$$$
to N. Korea to test a nuke..to ratchet up the fear rhetoric, to underpin this insane notion that only Bush** can keep us safe... wait and see.
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HarukaTheTrophyWife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #42
44. Bush is NOT behind every shitty thing that happens in the world.
Neither is Rove.
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paparush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-10-06 09:32 PM
Response to Reply #44
62. You've clearly been neglecting your Noam Chomsky ; -)
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AnnieBW Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:34 PM
Response to Original message
46. North Korea Is Constantly On War Footing
Edited on Sun Oct-08-06 11:36 PM by AnnieBW
Every male is required to be in the Armed Forces, and many women are as well. They've been brainwashed for over 50 years to think that the US is invading immanently. Every man, woman, and child is a soldier. If you aren't a soldier, you're a political prisoner in one of their gulags. Naturally, they can't feed their own people, but they throw all of the hard currency they have at building nukes and missiles.

The North Koreans got their nuke materials from A.Q. Khan of Pakistan - you know, the guy that the Pakis let go free and the * administration ignored. And who was working that issue at the CIA? Valerie Plame.

The North Koreans could easily nuke Seoul, or any other city on the peninsula. As well as Japan and China, but they're buddies with China. This is really bad, and there's NO WAY to blame this on Clinton.

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janx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:43 PM
Response to Original message
48. Kim Jong Ill doesn't care if his country is turned into a crater--
not that he has thought that far ahead. His people are starving and his country is a wreck. This is one sick guy.

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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:43 PM
Response to Original message
49. You answered your own question: So what?
Yes, NK's leadership is truly insane and suicidal. Like another nation with nukes, NK's leader is a spoiled brat born to power with no sense of the limits of that power.

And then there is the rational side of NK's move. If Bush is going to just say nation x is a threat and invade, even when nation x isn't a threat and Bush actually had no reason to believe it was, then nation y, also threatened by Bush, may as well be a threat if that is what it takes to defend itself.
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boolean Donating Member (992 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:53 PM
Response to Original message
50. You are 100% correct. HOWEVER
If they were nuts, and did blast a nuke, and did get their own country wiped off the map....

Well I don't think the 10 to 20 million people killed would be too happy about it.
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Centrist11 Donating Member (5 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 12:05 AM
Response to Original message
51. Fair enough
But don't go crazy when Japan does it. Oh ya, and build a bombshelter.
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Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 12:06 AM
Response to Original message
52. Or maybe they bought it from China or Russia, who knows.
I think it is wrong for people to assume NK made the bomb. Maybe they did and maybe they didn't.
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 12:18 PM
Response to Original message
58. What makes you think
they won't sell a couple to crazier fools than themselves. The real danger with N Korea other than to their neighbors is further proliferation. The more nukes there are that can be sold or stolen the less safe everyone is.

Small enough weapons could conceivably be hidden in shipments and smuggled into a target country.

The other point I would make is even sane leaders can be pushed to the edge of using weapons like these, under a threat that may be imagined or overated. In the wrong political environment they certainly could be used.
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AnnieBW Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #58
59. Bingo!
It's bad enough that NK has the bomb, and can threaten its highly populated neighbors that are not only economic powerhouses, but have US military presence on them. (SK and Japan). It's that now Kim can sell this technology to whoever has enough money, including certain rich Islamic terrorists that we still haven't caught after 5 years.
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gratuitous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #58
60. Took long enough to get to the right answer
I thought I was going to have to pose the hypothetical: What if Kim gives a nuclear bomb to someone else? Crazy or not, mutually assured destruction or not, one nuclear bomb can surely ruin a whole bunch of people's day, not to mention the folks downwind from the bomb, their children, and their land. And if the shell casing is recovered with "Made in North Korea" stamped on it, so what? Would that prove it was made in or launched from North Korea? And if you can't prove it, how many folks would be comfortable with the mass murder of millions of people based on no evidence? We're still debating the morality of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Nuking an entire country would cause a stain so bad on the United States' reputation that no amount of money or time would ever cleanse it.

There are a number of people who have proven that they will give up their own lives if they can take a few of their enemies with them. So far, they just have their hands on small change explosives like dynamite. What if they get a hold of a nuclear bomb? And what if Kim decides it will serve his purposes (whatever they are) to give them one?
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 03:14 PM
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61. The Idea That North Korea Could Prevail In A War
The idea that North Korea could prevail in a war with South Korea and the U . S. is ludicrous...
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