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LuckyTheDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 08:26 PM
Original message
My response to a crappy e-mail about Muslims sent to me by my mom
Some of you might be getting the same e-mail letter

THIS IS THE ORIGINAL e-mail:
>
>
TWISTED LOGIC - POOR OLD MUSLIMS - THEY GET INSULTED - WE GET BEHEADED
>
> The Pope says that jihad violence is against God's nature, and officials
> fear that in response, Muslims enraged by this insult will commit... Jihad> violence.
>
> Muslims murder 3,000 innocents in New York and expect no criticism.
> Muslims murder 202 tourists in Bali and expect no criticism.
> Muslims murder 333 schoolchildren and their teachers in Beslan and expect no criticism.
> Muslims murder 292 innocents, mainly Kenyans and Tanzanians at two US
> Embassies and expect no criticism.
> Muslims murder 241 US and 58 French peacekeepers in Beirut and expect no
criticism.
> Muslims fire 4,000 Katyusha rockets into Northern Israel killing over 50 innocent civilians and expect no criticism.
> Muslims murder 52 in London and 191 in Madrid and expect no criticism.
Muslims murder 200 in Mumbai and expect no criticism.
Muslims behead Western hostages in Iraq, Buddhist monks in Thailand and
Christian schoolgirls in Indonesia and expect no criticism.
Muslims murder 500,000 in Darfur and expect no criticism.
Muslims regard Jews as 'sons of pigs and monkeys', and vow to nuke Israel
and expect no criticism.
Muslims force women to wear hideous sacks, stone to death women for getting raped and for leaving the home unescorted, engage in honor killings of sisters and daughters for unapproved dating, and expect no criticism.
Muslims danced in the streets and handed out sweets to their kids to
celebrate the 9/11 atrocity, and still expected no criticism.
Since 9/11 Muslims have killed over 26,000 and wounded over 50,000 in terrorist attacks worldwide since 9/11 and expect no criticism.
Since 9/11 Muslims have committed terrorist attacks in Afghanistan, Algeria, Bangladesh, Belgium, Chad, Chechnya, Dagestan, Denmark, East Timor, Egypt,England, Eritrea, Ethiopia, France, Germany, India, IIndonesia, Ingushetia, Iran, Iraq, Israel, Jordan, Jordan-Iraq, Kabardino-Balkans, Kenya, Kosovo, Kuwait, Kyrgyzstan, Lebanon, Mauritania, Morocco, Netherlands, Nigeria, Pakistan, Gaza-Palestinian Authority, Philippines, Qatar, Russia, Saudi Arabia, Scotland, Somalia, Spain, Sri Lanka, Sudan, Syria, Tajikistan, Thailand, Tunisia, Turkey, United Arab Emirates, United Arab Republic, United States, Uzbekistan and Yemen, and still expect no criticism.
> Muslims have carried out over 5,800 fatal terrorist atrocities since 9/11, and countless thousands since Islamic conquest began in 623 AD and expect no criticism. But if a Pope dares to tell the truth about Islam or Danes publish cartoons about Mohammed, then let the outpourings of Islamic hate and outrage begin.
And, by some twisted reach of logic, the arrogant bastards demand the Pope issue an apology.
>
>
-----------------------------------------------------
THIS WAS MY "REPLY TO ALL" RESPONSE...

Terrorists did those things. The fact that they did them based on their sick and twisted interpretation of their religion is irrelevant. There is no justification for those actions in Islam or in any other philosophy.

The vast majority of Muslims are not terrorists. And that's a good thing,
because there are a BILLION of them. So, let's keep it that way.

The Pope didn't do anyone any good when he insulted the entire Muslim religion instead of focusing in the real problem, which is terrorism and extremism.

Sure, from our point of view, Muslims seem a bit overly touchy about statements like that from the Pope. But anyone who knows the history of the Crusades should realize that the Benedict XVI was opening up old wounds. And what good did that
do?

We need to stay focused on the FUTURE in our dealings with the mainstream Muslim world. THAT is what serves our interests. It's the terrorist nut-balls who have the most to gain by keeping Muslims focused on crap that happened in the Middle Ages.

Some people in the Bush administration want to turn the war on terrorism into a war between Islam and Christianity. And, apparently, the Pope sees things that way, too. But, there is no military solution to the historical rift between the Muslim and Christian worlds. And the more we do to encourage mainstream Muslims to see us as something other than their enemies, the better off we'll be.

In fact, even the war on terrorism isn't best fought with armies most of the time. That war is best fought with covert and clandestine operations and the tools of law enforcement. Only occasionally (such as in Afghanistan) will the fight against terrorism require actual military engagement.

But what is Bush doing? He is neglecting Afghanistan in favor of fighting a war in Iraq which-- in terms of fighting terrorism -- was not a priority in 2003.

We would have been much, much better off finishing the job in Afghanistan and keeping Iraq contained. If we'd done that, we wouldn't be draining our national treasury trying to impose "freedom and democracy" on a backward country that doesn't want it, while also providing a "cause clbre" for the Jihadist movement.

And while Bush struggles to figure out goals in Iraq, Afghanistan is falling apart. The Taliban (the group that actually harbored al Qaeda) is making a comeback and the situation is so frustrating that Republican leaders are suggesting that we make peace with them!

We need some new ideas. We need a new approach.

------------------------------------------------------------

My mom was pissed that I "embarrassed her" by hitting "reply to all." But maybe she will stop sending me this crap after this.


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Kittycat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 08:31 PM
Original message
You should have said she embarrassed you...
By being such a racist, and you expect more from your mother.
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LuckyTheDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 08:35 PM
Response to Original message
3. The odd thing is that she isn't racist
I have no idea what possessed her to pass along that garbage.
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Divernan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 09:01 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. Racists don't have to discriminate against ALL other races.
As far as Muslims go, your mother is a racist or, given the wide variety of races represented in the Muslim universe, your mother may be better described as a religious bigot. The hatred of Muslims may be so virulent because it is a combination of racial and religious prejudice. My sibs and I managed to shame my Mom out of her racism against blacks back in the 60's, when my brother & sister-in-law adopted a mixed race child. (As another poster suggested, we told her we were ashamed of her attitude, that it was cruel & thoughtless, and we expected better of her) And my Mom came to adore that little girl. But now that my mother is sinking into Alzheimer's/dementia, and childhood fantasies, that racism inculcated into her in her childhood years is raising it's ugly head re black caregivers. I apologize to them, and they seem to understand that people of my mother's generation were raised with strong prejudices. But it's still ugly to see or hear.

Your response was really good - very calm and forceful.
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Kittycat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 09:48 PM
Response to Reply #7
16. Yes, Religious Bigot - better Description.
My family is filled with foreignors (India, Persian, Italian, Australian), and all of them are christian (mostly converted). It's astonishing to me the contempt they have for their own relgious cultures. My grandma had a habit of sending similar messages to me, until I asked blunty out one day if she would send that to my uncle's parents (whom she knows are muslim, and have been welcomed guests on many occassions in her home). I don't think it was until then that she realized either what she was doing - or just decided not to forward to me anymore.
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Frances Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 08:31 PM
Response to Original message
1. Your mom should be proud of you!
You wrote a very rational letter explaining the best way to keep all of us safe.
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Wheezy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 08:31 PM
Response to Original message
2. Very nice
Props to you for not blowing up. And if your mom is pissed, tell her you're doing nothing different from what she's doing.

Are we related or something? Ha. My family is similar. After an egregious 9/11 mass email from my sis-in-law, all I did was send her a link to Keith Olbermann's 9/11 You Tube commentary.

I haven't heard from her since. She never replied. I think she took me off her list.

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Thickasabrick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 08:57 PM
Response to Original message
4. I loved your response - my sister sends me all kinds of neo-con
crap too - I usually delete - I admire your patience for answering one of these.

I agreed with everything in your response except the part about forcing democracy on a backward country.

Iraq was not a backward country. It led the middle east in terms of freedom for women and education. We have transformed what was once a very progressive country - despite living with sanctions for all those years - into a closed-minded, unprogressive theocracy. Saddam may have been a horrible dictator, but women could wear what they want and study to become whatever they wanted to be. I doubt women's rights in Iraq will ever be what they once were.
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cui bono Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 09:01 PM
Response to Original message
5. god for you...
another response could be to list all the things BushCo does along with their attitude about it.
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Lorax Donating Member (307 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 09:01 PM
Response to Original message
6. Reply all
My inlaws get pissed when we answer their ridiculous emails by hitting the reply-all button. As though it's ok for them to send out ridiculous statements but we shouldn't embarrass them "publicly".
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roguevalley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 09:07 PM
Response to Original message
8. my idiot uncle vern does that. I could slap him.
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PsychoDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 09:11 PM
Response to Original message
9. Thank you.
For such an insightful and reason response to the e-mail.

BTW, for what it's worth, there's 2 billion of us, and growing. :)
700 out of the 3000 killed in the twin towers on 9/11 were Muslim. You see, we too were victims.
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Yes. People of all religions and nationalities were victims on 9/11
When Timothy McVeigh and his co-conspirators blew up the Murrah building in Oklahoma, did people say that all Christians believe in murdering little children? Of course not.

To believe the terrorists' view of reality is to enter into their world of insanity and hatred. After 9/11, much of the world was ready to join the United States in catching the villains. Instead, the United States government used the attack as an excuse to start a new Crusade. This one is just as evil and hypocritical as the last one.

I had a good friend in graduate school who was Muslim, from Indonesia. He was one of the kindest man I ever met, a physician who cared for poor people, a vegetarian, a pacifist, and a devout follower of his faith.
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Thickasabrick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #9
15. Wow...I never knew that. Thank you
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tocqueville Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 09:17 PM
Response to Original message
10. the Pope didn't insult anybody
Edited on Sun Oct-08-06 09:20 PM by tocqueville
maybe it wasn't smart to discuss Islam right now, but in a theological discussion the Pope could have said that the Protestants were damned wrong about this and that without starting a Jihad except from Pat Robertson. He chose instead a passage of a letter relating to Mahomet (in a pure theological reasoning) and said at the same time that he disagreed with it.

FYI information a French university professor discussed recently the Pope's statements (was the Pope right or wrong ?) and quoted several passages of the Koran which incite to violence. He received so many death threats that he is now on a secret location under police protection. The two papers (MSM) that published his article in the pages for cultural debate have been banned in Egypt and probably other Muslim countries.

Of course you are right that "Muslims"doesn't equal terrorists and that's the main point.

But the attacks on the Pope are just the reflection of a medieval mentality, condoned by leaders from countries that pretend to be moderate. Very few leading Muslim clerics and scholars have tried to defuse the hatred, while secular intellectuals in Europe (including ones with Arabic background) have backed the Pope's right to discuss religion.

Besides your argument about the Crusades, it is completely flawed. Even if the Crusades were the wrong response to a threat, they were a response to a threat. Islam was propagated by violence (the same way than Christianity), but in that case it wasn't the Christians that started to invade "Arab" territory.

It is right to criticize Islam the same way than to criticize Christianity of whatever brand it maybe. And it's fucking healthy since those countries never had any Enlightment and refuse secularism by principle. There is a vast movement among Arabic intellectuals in Europe to create a secular "enlighented" Islam. This is very little known in the US since this debate isn't mostly done in English, but in other languages.

And finally the separation of Church and State isn't really understood in the US for historical reasons which leads to many "practices" which would be illegal in Europe. This lack of understanding leads to very confused statements...
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. Give me a break.
I suggest that you do some reading on the Crusades. They weren't a response to any threat to Europe. They were a big land-grab and a convenient way to get the badly-behaved marauding knights out of the backyards of the dukes and princes.

This Pope has a lifelong history of denying rights to most people. He knew exactly what he was doing when he read that medieval tract, written by an Iranian (Persian). Persians and Arabs are historical enemies. The Pope knew that reading from that source would be deeply insulting to every Arab in the world. Give him credit for one thing - he's educated about the Crusades.
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Thickasabrick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 09:32 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. I agree - of all the things he could have picked to read - he picked
that - he's not stupid.
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tocqueville Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 09:52 PM
Response to Reply #12
17. ok, some facts and give ME a break
Edited on Sun Oct-08-06 09:59 PM by tocqueville
#1 Crusades

The Crusades were a series of military campaigns conducted in the name of Christendom<1> and usually sanctioned by the Pope.<2> They were of a religious character, combining pilgrimage with militarism. When originally conceptualized, the aim was to recapture Jerusalem and the Holy Land from the Muslims while supporting the Byzantine Empire against the "ghazwat" of the Seljuq <3> expansion into Anatolia. The fourth crusade however was diverted and resulted in the conquest of Constantinople.

In 1009 the Fatimid caliph al-Hakim bi-Amr Allah sacked the pilgrimage hospice in Jerusalem and destroyed the Church of the Holy Sepulchre. al-Hakim's successors allowed it to be rebuilt later by the Byzantine emperor, but this event was remembered in Europe and may have helped spark the crusades.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades

Islam started to expand by seizing land from around 650 AD. It wasn't the contrary.

After Muhammad passed away, a series of Caliphs governed the Islamic State: Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman, and Ali. These first Caliphs are popularly known as the "Rashidun" or rightly guided Caliphs.

The Rashidun made significant conquests, and brought large areas under the fold of Islam.Abu Bakr's short reign (632-34) was occupied by the Ridda wars - rebellions of Bedouin Arabs. During Umar's rule, Muslim armies invaded Palestine and Mesopotamia. At the Battle of Yarmuk (636), Muslim armies won a crushing victory over the Byzantines, thus paving the way for the conquest of Egypt and Syria. After a decisive victory over the Sassanid empire at the Battle of al-Qādisiyyah in 637, Muslims overwhelmed the Persians in Mesopotamia. Five years later, after the Battle of Nihawānd, Persia was effectively included in the expanding Islamic empire. <1[br />
Under the Ummayads, the Muslim world expanded into North Africa and Spain in the West, and Central Asia in the East. According to Jonathan Bloom and Sheila Blair,

By the early eighth century, the Islamic empire stretched from North Africa on the west to Transoxiana and Sind (modern-day Pakistan) in the east, nearly one quarter the way around the globe, an area that made the empires of the Persians, Alexander the Great, and the Romans seem puny...The Muslims, no longer Arab merchants from the heartland of Arabia, became masters of the economic and cultural heartland of the Near East, and their faith, Islam, was no longer as obscure Arabian cult but the religion of an imperial elite.<2>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Islam

the first crusade came 200 years AFTER.

#2 the Pope

he is not an exception to the 1st amendment or equivalents. Even if his lecture and quotes can be criticized for being unsensitive or even wrong, that's not a reason for death threats. The whole world was outraged at the fatwah against Salman Rushdie (who to the difference from the Pope really attacked the hadiths with references of horrible perversions within Islam), but when the Pope quote somebody criticizing Mahomet, it's all of a sudden "outrageous"... even among progressives...

If the US was mainly of Catholic heritage, the criticism would be of diplomatic nature (like in Europe) but not fundamental.

This reminds me of the Catholic bashing regarding pedophile priests in the US. How horrible ! But fact is that statistics show that the amount of child/adolescent abuse is far superior among Protestant preachers of most denominations. But it's conveniently forgotten.

FYI I am not a practicising Catholic. Religiously I am a firm defender of secularism and philosifically agnostic.
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Arugula Latte Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 09:26 PM
Response to Original message
13. Tell her Bush the "Christian" slaughtered tens of thousands
of innocent Iraqis ... and expected no criticism.
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