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greenbriar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 02:26 PM
Original message
My lame ass reply from Pastor Downs at Heritage Bpst Church that likes Fol
Since you are being so judgemental I have decided to reply to your nasty e-mail.

We are sorry and ashamed for what our congressman has done and we are not defending him in any shape, manner or form. The pictures were taken in 2001 when we took our school children with their families to Washington, D.C. for the year end school trip.

When the news broke on Friday I was out of town and returned late Saturday and we took our web site down on Sunday to delete these pictures.

We have received many attacks in the way of phone calls and e-mails in just those three day period. Do you know what your congressman or senator does in their private lives?

We do not promote politics in our church except urge people to get out and vote their beliefs.

We also encourage people to not jump to conclusions the way you have.

We should all take the Amish example. If you have been forgiven by Christ should you not do the same?
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Mythsaje Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 02:29 PM
Response to Original message
1. Hate to say it
but this was a rational response. I can't fault him for it.
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #1
28. He denies promoting a political agenda.
Thats kinda irrational or dishonest take your pick.
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greenbriar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. true
true
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Hepburn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 02:29 PM
Response to Original message
2. Dear Pastor Downs ~~
Noooooooo, I don't know what my Congressperson does in her private life.........BUT, Dennis Hastert knew what your Congressman was doing.

Any comments, Pastor Downs?

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mntleo2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #2
33. These People Sure Wanted To Know about ...
...Clinton's private life and lambaste him from the pulpit and even carry the torches to impeach him. So why the hell use as an excuse that "they didn't know" about this hypocrite's life? They seemed to feel pretty entitled to know before, now suddenly they "don't know"?

I think I would say this to Pastor Heritage Baptist Church:

Pastor Downs:
For years conservative Christians have felt pretty entitled to know what is going on on the private lives of our leaders ~ that is until one of their championed candidate's hypocrisy hits them in the face with the truth. Caring more about sex than the torture and death of innocents in Iraq, the drowning of their own citizens in New Orleans, the demonetizing of the poor, the robbing of the treasury with no-contract bids that have so far only enriched company owners and the administration rather than actually do anything productive, this is fine with conservative Christians. But hey, if you have any kind of sexual nature, well bring out the torches and the hang man's noose!

Here are a few things perhaps you forgot Pastor Wingnut, and you might start by reading the Sermon On The Mount. While you and your mega-church rake in the dough, here is what JESUS said:
Matthew 19: "Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven ..."

Did Jesus say, "anyone of you who breaks the commandment, "do not be gay" or "do not be sexual" makes you great? No! He was clearly saying the greatest in heaven was anyone who teaches that you should be kind and help the poor, shelter the maligned, love the unloved, free the prisoner, or comfort the tortured. And more importantly, did He say to do good only to Christians? I do not see anywhere in the teachings of his word, anything about only doing good to your own faith while looking the other way, condoning, or participating in killing and the torture of all others.

You fool! You have taught that RICHES are good and that harsh judgment about SEX is the *only* sin when in reality, greed is the greatest sin for it foments wars and famine so that only a few have while the rest starve. Jesus did not mention much about sex, but he DID mention about greed: Read this:

Luke 18:18. A certain ruler asked him, "Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?"

19. "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is goodexcept God alone. 20You know the commandments: 'do not murder, do not steal, do not commit adultery, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother.' "

21. "All these I have kept since I was a boy," he said.

22. When Jesus heard this, he said to him, "You still lack one thing. SELL EVERYTHING AND GIVE IT TO THE POOR, YOU WILL STILL HAVE TREASURY IN HEAVEN. THEN COME, FOLLOW ME."

23. When the rich man heard this, he became very sad, because he was a man of great wealth. 24Jesus looked at him and said, "HOW HARD IS IT FOR THE RICH MAN TO ENTER INTO THE KINGDOM OF GOD! 25 INDEED IT IS HARDER FOR THE CAMEL TO ENTER THROUGH THE EYE OF A NEEDLE THAN FOR A RICH MAN TO ENTER INTO THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN"

I know the sermon many like you have preached about the camel and how it has to get down on its knees in order to enter the small gate into Jerusalem called "The Eye Of The Needle." It is all hogwash because Jesus did not talk about some stupid gate and you know it! That thinking is just an excuse to keep all the wealth for yourselves while you starve your neighbor. You who take the Bible so "literally" always want to mess with what you don't like to hear, don't you?

I do not need to "forgive" Mr. Foley for being the way that God made him to be; gay ~ like the love David and Jonathan shared. Like Solomon with all his hundreds of eunuchs, which any scholar knows were not just gardeners or guards of a harem, but expected to be sexual slaves as well, and by the way, isn't THAT adultery to be castrating men so you can rape them as well as having over 700 concubines you raped? Perhaps someday I will forgive them both for liking teen age boys.

But I cannot forgive his or your hypocrisy because as leaders you both have a grave responsibility to lead riteously, you to teach the Word correctly, Mr Foley to support legislation that is truly democratic ~ and neither of you have done this. Your example and that of your cohorts is beyond forgiveness because you have led people horribly astray in order to enrich yourselves. That Mr Wingnut is beyond forgiveness because it is in direct contradiction to what you KNOW you should be teaching.

Perhaps if you really want to see forgiveness then you will get down on your knees and ask God's help in taking out the other hypocrites, thieves who use the law to take more than they need, and the liars in our midst and put them where they can never hurt another human being again and where they justly belong: exiled or in prison. Then perhaps instead of calling us "unpatriotic" you will join those of us who have seen what it is all along and impeach this president and all his "Christian" friends for calling themselves Christian while causing war to enrich themselves, and for causing the death and destruction of innocents in the name of a lie. Do not beg me to forgive you or a man who has lived as a hypocrite for the admiration of man rather than being who he is for the love of God, before you truly understand what both of your greatest sins really are.

Sincerely,
A Diligent Student of the Words and Life of Christ

Cat In Seattle




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greenbriar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #33
35. that is excellent
thank you
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Hepburn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 08:19 AM
Response to Reply #33
36. Wow!!
Great letter and sooooooooo right on point!
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PurpleChez Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 02:29 PM
Response to Original message
3. What is this in reference to?
I'm a bit confused.
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The Velveteen Ocelot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 02:30 PM
Response to Original message
4. A totally appropriate response, IMO.
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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. perhaps, but if I recall correctly - this is a church
that excludes other Christians if their behaviors aren't up to par or maybe it was exclusionary if the doctrinal beliefs were not exactly aligned. That is - if I am correct it is a rather unforgiving church - not quite aligned with expropriating the message from the Amish in the face of their tragedy.
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greenbriar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. exactly right!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
He who holds themself to be above all other has lowered himself down with satan
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Perky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #5
15. Oh cmon
The Amish are a pretty insular group as well.


Look I am a Christian and there are some things on their website that concern me greatly. Everyone on staff being "saved" at that church is a huge red-light to me. The Dress code is puritanical.

These guys are dangerously close to the Branch Davidians if they ar collecting guns.


But here is the thing. They are entitled to their opinions and it is still a free country. They may not have tax exempt status. If not... there is nothing to fault them on from a constitutional view.
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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. ? I was talking about the gracious words used about forgiveness
and repeated by the press per the Amish in response to the murders in Pennsylvania, being used and referred to by the paster referred to in the OP as a way of suggesting that the DUer was bad (not forgiving) and he the pastor was good (forgiving) - and the irony of this tone given that very exclusionary and judgemental tone set forth by that particular church (I believe their tenets were on their website and were very rigid/judgemental).

just commenting on what I found to be ironic per the pastor's comments - and was stating nothing about the Amish - save the reference to the words repeated by the media per the tragedy visited upon them. I am not saying Amish are good, bad, indifferent. Just speaking to the words being exproprirated by this particular minister - in a rather ironic way per the sentiments being expressed.
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greenbriar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. no it is not rational as my email was pretty calm and factual
instead of being christian about it, he was totally patronizing and not pastoral like
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Perky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Why don't you post you originalo email to him?
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greenbriar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. I am looking for my originalo email
Edited on Sun Oct-08-06 02:42 PM by greenbriar
HERE IT IS


"It is unbelieveable that you would be proud to advertise that you have a pedophile attend your services. It is further appaling that you are proud to have such a person pose with little boys and advertise it on a church webpage. A church that claims to be from God.

I am a Christian and a Baptist and would NEVER use my church to promote politcs or a pedophile."



I think it is rather calm considering the circumstance

I am pissed at all of the GOPERVERTS and am NOT backing down...we get no where being "polite"
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Perky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #11
18. Ummm
Perhaps, but as Christians we are called to show mercy and be forgiving.


I guess all I am saying is I would have given him the opportunity to explain himself rather than suggesting that he was proud. It is presumptive and uncharitable to think the pator was proud of the relationship with Foley.

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greenbriar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. The webpage exuded proudness
Edited on Sun Oct-08-06 02:52 PM by greenbriar
nothing else to say!



I am NOT backing down


we get no where being "polite"

all we get is fucked
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Perky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #19
26. WWJD?
My guess is that he would turn the other cheek.
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Generic Other Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #11
24. That was being nice to 'em
You should have heard how I talked to the Methodists after Bush invaded Iraq.
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Fridays Child Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #7
13. Does this church have a record of hypocrisy? Has the pastor...
Edited on Sun Oct-08-06 02:48 PM by Fridays Child
...crossed over into politics or exclusionary practices, on other issues? Also, can you include a copy of your email? It might show a littlle more clearly why the pastor's response is out of line. I'm not saying you're not right. Just looking for a little context here.

:hi:

Edited to add that the word "heritage" is a racist buzzword, where I come from. When my town's schools started implementing desegregation laws, the upper Middle Class white folks got together and started a school called Heritage Hall. The implication was clear. Heritage meant white heritage. I suspect the right wing Heritage Foundation's name stems from similar sentiments and Heritage Baptist may not be too far from that kind of thinking, either.
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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #13
20. the church web page is full of floating words "God and Country"
features a picture of W among other things. It does appear to be a political church.
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greenbriar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. exactly
spot on


don't give up

don't back down


hold all of those mother truckers feet to the fire
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Fridays Child Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #22
34. I agree...
I just wasn't up to speed on the details when I read your originalpost.

:thumbsup:
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Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 02:33 PM
Response to Original message
6. Wow! This pastor is really pissed at you. LOL!
I take it you asked him about having a picture of Shrubnuts on their webpage. Imo, they are promoting republicans. Now if they had a pic of Clinton on their webpage when he was president, then I would apologize.

Btw, I was one of the ones that called and left a message on their answering machine. :) Thanks for letting us know about the reply from the good pastor.
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tularetom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 02:38 PM
Response to Original message
10. God, where would you begin to respond to that drivel?
"Do you know what your congressman does?" If he does what Foley did get him the fuck out of there.
"We do not promote politics" ROFLMAO. I know nothin about the Heritage Babtist Church but I'd bet they deliver political messages thinly disguised as sermons every Sunday.
"We encourage people not to jump to conclusions" I'd like to see their sermons from the ol' Clinton days.
"We should all take the Amish example" He's right we all should but he needs to take a glance in the mirror.

It deserves a response of some kind even if just for the cathartic value of writing one.
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Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 02:39 PM
Response to Original message
12. Btw, here is the cache of the original website....
Edited on Sun Oct-08-06 02:40 PM by cat_girl25
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #12
38. that is a pretty sickening page
I wonder if it will stay the same when Hillary is President, and when his district gets a new Democratic Congressperson. I still do not think the email response (although it is probably a form email) is that bad, or that the original email was appropriate.

"Each of us is more than the worst thing weve ever done in life. Someone who cheats is not only a cheater. Someone who steals something is not only a thief. And someone who commits a murder is not only a murderer."

http://www.commondreams.org/views06/1006-33.htm
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crim son Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 02:42 PM
Response to Original message
14. I find myself wondering what was your Pastor's
stance when the Lewinsky scandal broke. Was he concerned about Clinton's right to privacy? Unfuckinglikely.
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greenbriar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. exactly...but this is NOT my church
My church veils their gopness... its the only way I can stand it
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crim son Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #16
25. I'm glad for you!
There is no church whose doors I will darken any more. I guess I'm officially a lost soul.
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On the Road Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 02:56 PM
Response to Original message
21. While It's a Good Response,
I doubt that's a good description of their political stance.
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greenbriar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. they probably preach bush is god
and all "liberals" are going to ruin the country
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tenshi816 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 03:00 PM
Response to Original message
27. I wrote to them too,
but didn't get a reply. What I said was once sentence along the lines of "you might want to re-think having photographs of a pedophile on your website."
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Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #27
37. I didn't write them but I called them.
And that's pretty much what I told them. I was very nice about it. I think the pastor piled on the OP because of all the emails and phone calls combined.
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Ian David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 03:41 PM
Response to Original message
30. Take the Amish example and subjugate women?
Edited on Sun Oct-08-06 03:42 PM by IanDB1
I hate how fundie churches hide behind Christ's loincloth when it suits them, and when it doesn't they shout hellfire and damnation for anyone they disagree with.

And worse-- since 2000, they've turned electioneering into an art form.

It used to be just words.

Now it's also voter intimidation.


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Rabrrrrrr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 04:03 PM
Response to Original message
31. I think he's right - why malign and send hate mail
Edited on Sun Oct-08-06 04:05 PM by Rabrrrrrr
just because he had his picture taken with Foley in 2001?

Christ. Talk about childish.

I don't blame him for responding the way he did.

Granted, I feel violated after having visited the cache because of all the patriotic = Christian bullshit blasphemy, esp. that that piece of shit had the audacity to put pictures from 9-11 (like the World Trade Center globe) on his site.
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insanerepubs Donating Member (74 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 04:09 PM
Response to Original message
32. His response
was appropriate....

"for all have sinned and fall short
of the glory of God," Romans 3:23

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