Bottom line: If Woodward lied about Carville, then Carville should sue.

[blm]

Or fight back the "narrative" that is developing around the story.

We can't let Woodward get away with "defining" Carville as a traitor to the Democratic voters on election night, can we? This book has been out for over a week now, and Carville hasn't fought back yet.

Maybe he needs our help. Come on, James, if Woodward is lying about you, you can count on us to defend you - just let us know the FACTS and we can fight back for you, if you aren't comfortable standing up for yourself.

I'm sure we would all agree to fight for James Carville if Woodward is lying about him, right?

[MADem]

1. Anyone who is unfamiliar with the specifics, see here:

On page 344, Woodward describes the doings at the White House in the early morning hours of Wednesday, the day after the '04 election.

Apparently, Kerry had decided not to concede. There were 250,000 outstanding ballots in Ohio.

So Kerry decides to fight. In fact, he considers going to Ohio to camp out with his voters until there is a recount. This is the last thing the White House needs, especially after Florida 2000.

So what happened?

James Carville gets on the phone with his wife, Mary Matalin, who is at the White House with Bush.

"Carville told her he had some inside news. The Kerry campaign was going to challenge the provisional ballots in Ohio -- perhaps up to 250,000 of them. 'I don't agree with it, Carville said. I'm just telling you that's what they're talking about.'

"Matalin went to Cheney to report...You better tell the President Cheney told her."

http://www.tpmcafe.com/blog/coffeehouse/2006/oct/07/did...

[katinmn]

2. 'I don't agree with it," Carville said.

Regarding counting the outstanding votes.

WTF??

Carville's got some 'splainin' to do.

If Woodward lied, OF COURSE we will back him up.

I must disclose that I've never trusted Carville although I once thought he was gutsy and amusing. How could he share his life with someone like Matalin and not give up his soul? She was involved with the Swift Boat Liars against Kerry. She is part of Bush's circle of ReTHUG advisers. I see a strong conflict of interest here.

Gone are the days of statesmanship and civility, although I hope they can be revived. We are living in times where ReTHUGS cannot be trusted to tell the truth, uphold the Constitution, or act in the country's best interests. Anyone closely affiliated with them should be regarded warily.

[madame defarge]

3. We were just discussing this earlier this morning...

See here for some more thoughts:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

[EFerrari]

4. Isn't refighting 2004 a distraction from 2006? Why let Woodward

frame the issue?

These corrupt and immoral Republicans have to GO. They've shown the whole nation exactly how inept and corrupt they are. Shine the light there!

[blm]

8. Well - IF it happened we must keep shining light on Blackwell so he can't

do it again.

And, if it is a lie, we certainly can't let Woodward "DEFINE" Carville as a traitor to the Democratic VOTERS, can we?

Shouldn't we defend Carville for 2004 lies, just as we defended Clinton for 9-11 lies?

[EFerrari]

21. It can't wait until after the election? n/t

[blm]

28. Blackwell is very much involved in the Nov. election.

And if it IS true - I doubt Carville is the only party insider involved.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

40. love has turned many a head, even Carville's

Is it any surprise that his wife comes first, except perhaps, in bed?

He has more talent, and does all he can to help her. That should be no surprise to anyone.

[madfloridian]

10. The point is the seriousness of this issue.

If it is true that a trusted strategist misused that trust to hurt the nominee, it is not something that should be pushed under the rug to keep peace.

[EFerrari]

22. Agree -- the timing isn't great for us, though. n/t

[bobbieinok]

27. why isn't it great??? we look stupid b/c we trust C who's 'sleeping w the

enemy.???

It seems more likely that more might wake up to the fact that there are 'trusted' people high in democratic councils who don't necessarily have the good of the party --- or of the people --- as their priority.

[EFerrari]

32. I agree about all those DLC Repub Lite guys. They're why

I changed my registration, as a matter of fact.

But, this is a midterm election, not a national one. Maybe I'm all wet on this one, but imho we should be out helping candidates in competative districts, not focusing on D.C.

[blm]

35. That' the bothersome part. *IF* story is true, Carville couldn't possibly

be the only one operating from within.

That is another reason why we need to know the facts - so we can deal with them, either in defense of Carville, or in defense of our Democratic Party and the democratic process. I am down for either one.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

5. Carville is an opportunistic mouthpiece for the DLC.

He can sue me.

[MissWaverly]

6. I want to get ahead of the lava flow

I watched Woodward on 60 Minutes, he was asked about the Condi/Tenet 9-11 story which was
hotly denied by Dan Bartlett on the Sunday talk shows last week, Condi, herself, said that
she had no memory of it. There has been verification from the WH that such a meeting
did in fact take place. Now, when asked about Condi, Mike Wallace gave Woodward wiggle room
saying could you have misinterpreted the facts. Woodward said that he interviewed 200 people for the book and he has recorded transcripts, many of which the CBS producer had
listened to before the show aired that night. Now they actually played the Cheney clip
on Henry Kissinger on the air. So whatever Woodward's source for the quote he has a taped
interview and today on Tim Russert on MTP; he also has the interviews converted into
written transcripts so he can quote dates and line by line what was said.

[blm]

12. Well, many here want to give Carville the opportunity to show his BACKBONE

and nail Woodward for lying about what happened that night and for virtually casting Carville as a traitor to all Democratic voters.

If you were Carville wouldn't YOU back Woodward down to the ground on this one?

I mean - my gosh - this would mean Carville screwed over US - the entire Democratic party and its VOTERS.

Carville has GOT TO SUE or demand a retraction at that very least.

[MissWaverly]

17. the problem is, we don't know who Woodward quoted

I haven't had a chance to read the book yet, but I would like to see who that quote came
from before I can judge its credibility. I heard Dan Bartlett last week completely say
the opposite about what was true about Conde and the 9-11 meeting with George Tenet.
If the quote came from him I would doubt its substance.

[Little Star]

13. Carville needs to just STFU

As much as I loath Woodward, He's got his firmly covered with tapes and such. Carville needs to let it die. It didn't change a thing anyway and we mostly know that he (Car-vile) is a tool for Mary Maggot.

[MissWaverly]

25. I think we got the picture backwards

okay, maybe, Carville leaked info, someone always leaks, this happens, BUT the real question
here which is why Woodward put it into his book is: What did Cheney, Bush and Blackwell do
that prevented the election from being contested. That's what I want to know, what was done, because I am still waiting for the results of the Ohio 2004 recount that I helped pay
for. It was fixed, it was proven to be fixed and people have been indicted for fixing it
so where's the recount that we paid for when we gave to the Green Party, the Greens jumped
through every legal hoop required why was there never another recount when it was proven
that the first was a sham.

[Little Star]

43. Now that MissWaverly is a very good question. n/t

[blm]

46. Well, Carville knows exactly how that gang operates as his wife is one of

the gang.

I don't buy that naivete was involved.

[peekaloo]

7. Surely his buddy Begala has stepped up to his defense.

Right.

*crickets*

[madfloridian]

9. Sounds like Carville was messing around in other people's business.

Official party stuff. Should be ashamed.

[ProSense]

11. Carville press release cites Woodward's book to criticize Bush

James Carville and Stan Greenberg to Host Press Conference Today at 2 PM in Washington

Wed Oct 4, 10:23 AM ET

To: Assignment Desk, Daybook Editor

Contact: Sam Weston of Greenberg Quinlan Rosner, 202-478-8323 or [e-mail]

News Advisory:

New poll shows crash in standing of the Republican Congress in the wake of recent news stories

At 2 p.m. ET this afternoon, Stan Greenberg and James Carville will release a new survey for Democracy Corps, conducted by Greenberg Quinlan Rosner.

In the wake of recent news stories, the survey finds a crash in the standing of the Republican Congress, a growing perception that Congress has got nothing done on the issues that matter most, worsening perceptions of the war in Iraq and the president's handling of the War on Terrorism, and high recall of the new Bob Woodward book "State of Denial."

Additionally, Democrats have made significant gains on the Republicans on the issues of Iraq, national security and on values. The survey also finds a demoralization of Republicans with a widening gap in enthusiasm between Republican and Democratic voters heading into the November elections.

Please join Stan and James at 2 p.m. ET at Greenberg Quinlan Rosner, 10 G St. NE, Suite 400, Washington, D.C., 20002

For those interested but unable to attend, a call-in number will be provided.

RSVP now as space is limited.

[blm]

14. Maybe Carville hadn't read the part of book pointing to him as a traitor

to the Democratic voters.

[katinmn]

18. Maybe he thinks no one will notice

and that's true except for the "extreme left-wing liberals on the Internets."

Or maybe he wants to cash in on some publicity generated by the book.

How would you explain this episode to people who don't even understand hacking electronic voting machines or believe the '00 and '04 elections were stolen?

I wish Howard Dean and Barbara Boxer would give Carville a nice swift kick in the ass in private, though.

[grasswire]

16. so the man who betrayed Democrats is now polling for them?

Tread carefully, Dems. Villains are everywhere.

[KittyWampus]

15. DU'ers Will Defend Carville? Oh COME ON, BLM.

There's a sizeable number of DU'ers that lash Carville with that catch-all insult "DLC" and will hate him no matter what.

I have no reason to trust Woodward's account.

[blm]

19. Yeah, but we've trashed Woodward for longer than Carville - so if Woodward

IS lying about Carville, I believe James will get a spirited defense.

Look how mad we get at Clinton, but when the RW machine LIES about Clinton, just about every one of us jumps/jumped into action, didn't we?

[goclark]

51. I don't trust Carville as far as my finger!

You can see it in his eyes and his comments.

He has lost that "fire in the belly" that he had with Clinton.

His eyes have glazed over from the kool aid being feed to him, and the $$$$'s being funneled to his wife from the NeoCons.

He is SO different!

Another kool aid sucker is Donna Brazille. I will always believe she turned her coat in Texas and GORE.

Notice, when they want "really believable" Democrats on the NeoCon News, they always pick good old Donna and James.


Trust him at your peril DU.

[survivor999]

20. Carville is a bit of a nut, IMO n/t

[1932]

23. I still don't understand how Carville telling Matalin should have made a

difference.

In the other thread you said that Democrats probably didn't know how many challengeable ballots there were in Ohio. Why trust Blackwell's estimate regardless of whether he knew Kerry would challenge?

[blm]

24. IF Carville did this, I doubt he's the only Dem party insider involved.

And we should look to who partook in the numbers crunching aspect of the decisionmaking - especially the Dem party number crunchers who were in Ohio and charged with gathering the info needed and feeding it to the national campaign.

That is *IF* Woodward is telling the truth here, and Carville did this - I doubt he'd be the only party insider involved.

[1932]

29. He wasn't exactly an insider to the Kerry campaign.

He's a democrat, but his firm represents people of all different stripes, including Republicans, and Matalin is a partner in his consulting firm.

Unless he had a confidentiality agreement with the Kerry campaign, which he probably didn't, since he wasn't working for them, when Kerry's campaign told him that their plan was to challenge, they were basically making a public disclosure.

And, like I said, I still don't see why they backed off.

Maybe they wanted Carville to tell people just to see what the response would be.

Anyway, since I'm not finding much context to this issue here at DU, I guess I'm going to have to read the part in Woodward's book where he talks about this.

[blm]

31. Carville was with the Dem PARTY crew, not the Kerry campaign. I suppose

one would EXPECT that ANY information like that would not be spread to the other side.

But, like I said - there must be more to the story, and maybe when Carville calls out Woodward we'll get a better picture.

[elocs]

26. Carville is a public figure and would need to prove malice

in order to successfully sue for libel. Woodward would claim that the item printed was done for its newsworthiness and was not done in malice. I get the point, but Carville would never sue.

[blm]

30. But he can get a retraction if Woodward lied. And if Woodward is so

thorough that he insists on auditapes and specific notes to back up what he puts in his book but can't produce them for THIS story about Carville, then it seems that would become a story in itself, and Carville could get a PUBLIC RETRACTION at the very least.

[elocs]

36. I highly doubt that he would bother. n/t

[blm]

37. I dunno - Carville is pretty insistent that Dems need to defend themselves

LOUDLY whenever anyone lies about them.

[kiahzero]

33. No, he shouldn't.

Woodward's book has very powerful accusations against the Bush Administration, many of which are accepted in the media because of Woodward's reputation. If Carville starts trying to say that this small part of the book is wrong, that weakens Woodward's reputation, which then weakens the much more important parts of the book.

[blm]

34. Woodward has audiotapes and documents that back up charges against WH.

If he doesn't have audiotapes or specific notes retelling what happened with Carville and Matalin, Cheney and Bush, then Carville should at least get the word out to Democrats that Woodward is retracting that part of the book.

[kansasblue]

38. I don't trust James Carville. I believe Woodward on this. nt

[Duppers]

44. same here. nt

nt

[Duppers]

45. dupe

nt

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

39. James Carville is a side show, not a pillar. I don't think a lot of Dems

take him seriously and just about zero repubs, so he's not all that relevant.


Then Tenet/Rice July 2001 meeting and Kissinger's reappearance in the WH...Now there's relevancy! MKJ

[AtomicKitten]

41. one would have to actually give a shit about this extrapolated nonsense

stick a fork in it

[gully]

42. I don't know that Carville claims he lied? I think that JC did something

foolish by sharing information with his wife, obviously. But, it is understandable and as such Carville should be BANNED from any inside info on coming campaigns.

[blm]

47. It would be nice to believe it was just foolishness.

But, that seems like a luxury at this point, and one the party can't afford.

[gully]

48. I agree, Carville s/b dead to any future campaign.

Unless of course, he ends up in divorce court.

[blm]

49. Doubt it - Mary was part of Iraq group - James would know too much for

BushInc to let him get a divorce - they'd prefer an accident. I don't think he ever intended for it to turn out like this, but BFEE has its ways.

[gully]

50. Oh my

YIKES!