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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 01:32 AM
Original message
Let's join the Amish with a pledge of peace and humility
concerning those who disagree with us.

Let us end wars and violence. I am amazed at the example these ten Amish girls and their families gave us as to how to live with faith, courage, and forgiveness. I do hope the Amish community wins a Nobel prize for peace.

W, are you listening?
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spoony Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 01:35 AM
Response to Original message
1. My signature.
X

:hi:
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 01:36 AM
Response to Original message
2. Their Actions Have Been Truly Beautiful. I Don't Live That Far Away. I'm
thinking it's time for a quick roadtrip to experience their community a bit.

I think they have made quite a thought provoking and touching impact on many people with these recent events. May God bless them, and bless us all for that matter.

Thanks for the post.
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #2
21. Yes please bring ".peace, humility & forgiveness" back with you to DU
Have a good trip :toast:
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 12:07 AM
Response to Reply #21
26. Those Here That Require Further Understanding Of Peace, Humility And
forgiveness will probably need to seek inspiration on their own. Not sure how I'm supposed to bring that back to DU, since it is something everyone has to seek within themselves. I mean, it's not like it's some potion I can bring back to DU and sprinkle like pixie dust and make everyone all of a sudden buy in to the beauty we've seen from the Amish. Methinks that would be expecting a bit much LOL

I'll gladly share my stories though, when the time comes that I can make my way down there.

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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 12:51 AM
Response to Reply #26
28. Just be it
"I mean, it's not like it's some potion I can bring back to DU and sprinkle like pixie dust and make everyone all of a sudden buy in to the beauty we've seen from the Amish."
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The_Casual_Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 01:38 AM
Response to Original message
3. Humanity would be sustainable with the Amish model of living.
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pooja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 01:40 AM
Response to Original message
4. Compose a pledge for us to be able to sign... And then send it
to George Bushes doorstep...
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 01:46 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. I think it would be from the New Testament
as the Amish believes is the New Law. Forgive those who trespass against you, forgive them 7 times 7. Love thine enemy, Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

I simply don't understand where W and the religious right got so messed up about the doctrine of Jesus.

I do hope the Amish wins a Nobel Peace Prize. They have the right message and way of life.

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TomInTib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 01:45 AM
Response to Original message
5. I want to be in that choir, Erika.
'Tis the gift to be simple
'tis the gift to be free
'tis the gift to come down
where you want to be

And when you find yourself
in the Place Just Right
you will be in the Valley
of Love and Light


That is Shaker, but applicable nonetheless.
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blue sky at night Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 01:46 AM
Response to Original message
6. thanks.......
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Alamom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 03:27 AM
Response to Original message
8. We were taught to "Treat others as we wanted to be treated"
when we were kids. Even small children seem to get it.

If everyone did this, we would have a Perfect World and we know that's most likely not going to happen anytime soon.

A beautiful thought and hope, Erika.



blue sky at night....love the sig.
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canetoad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 03:41 AM
Response to Original message
9. This week we have seen
the most selfish and venal of behaviour juxtaposed against the gentle humility of the Amish.

I am not Christian, or an agnostic or atheist. I sometimes read the New Testament, alongside Voltaire and Robert E Heinlen among others, because insight into the human condition and wisdom can be gained.

The dignity and forgiveness of the Amish prompted me to re-visit what I consider to be one of the most powerful passages I have ever read.



If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.

And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

If I give away all I have, and if I deliver my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.
Love is patient and kind; love is not jealous or boastful;

it is not arrogant or rude. Love does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful;

it does not rejoice at wrong, but rejoices in the right.

Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
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NMMNG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 03:56 AM
Response to Original message
10. Are you crazy?
When somebody attacks you you are supposed to send thousands of soldiers into their country, then later a completely uninvolved country, bomb/shoot/rape/beat/torture them, and call it "spreading democracy". Hippy Liberal. :sarcasm:
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elehhhhna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 09:58 AM
Response to Original message
11. I will NEVER FORGIVE WAR CRIMINALS. Sorry. Nope.
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RadiDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. Me neither, I have forgiven Nader 2000 voters though!;-)
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marions ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 12:08 PM
Response to Original message
13. The kind of crime visited on the Amish girls
is very different from the crimes that have been visited on the American people by Bushco.

It is easier to forgive the single deranged killer than it is to forgive a large group who would subjugate and oppress a nation by manipulating the institutions of government, at the same time telling the preyed upon how great it is to live in a "free" Democracy.

The Amish killing is more like an Act of God--something that comes from out of the blue like a hurricane, something that you cannot prevent from happening, because insanity is not always preventable. This is easier to reconcile by calling it God's Will.

The Repuglican Juggernaut is more like experiencing acts of serial abuse. People only die indirectly as a result. This betrayal of trust is historic, a calculated operation conducted against the defenseless. This is not like being in a hurricane, this is like being in a prison camp. We cannot and should not call the behavior of our sadistic prison guards "God's Will." We should not call the behavior of their blind and twisted followers simply "those who disagree with us." We should NOT be ready to forgive anyone until there has been a major correction. This is something we can still do something about. We are not completely powerless, as in the Amish killings. We have a fighting chance.

It is not yet time to hand the Repuglican perpetrators over to God. He can have them after we are finished with them. We have a lot of work to do to address what they have done to us. You have to understand the mindset. A pledge of Peace and Humility to abusers will only get you abused further. The only thing that will make any difference is to meet them with appropriate resistance. Stop cheerfully taking it.

If you think "W is listening"...you have no understanding of the nature of deviance and criminal personalities.
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elehhhhna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Yup. Let's not confuse mental illness with PURE EVIL. Good post.
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marions ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. thanks elehhhna
yes, there are some forms of evil that we ignore to our peril. You cannot appease serial abusers. The urge to think they are salvageable often comes from well-meaning people, but it is unrealistic in most cases. Retribution must come before forgiveness.
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madmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. MLK accomplished a great deal.
Are you suggesting fighting fire with fire instead?

No one is suggesting cheerfully taking anything.
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marions ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #17
22. I'm not clear
what your question is...somehow you don't think I would appreciate the approach of MLK?
MLK--he is one of our greatest Americans and his inspiration is invaluable. But he was living in different times. Some of the things that were effective then just don't work as well now. MLK was calling for peaceful resistance when there was a lot of pent-up anger that needed to be contained and focused, in his wise thinking. If MLK were around today to help us with these latest social and political crimes, he might have to figure out how to get people off the couch or out of the mall. He would have to wake people up.

I am suggesting that the example of the Amish after the tragedy, while admirable, does not really apply to the situation we find ourselves in politically right now. I suppose it might later, if we get to the point where it all seems like a bad nightmare that is more or less over...but that could be a long time. There is a danger in feeling that one does not have (inner) permission to resist abuse. This is a common problem actually. You don't want to negate the emotion of anger, you want to use it. Passivity and powerlessness is more of a danger than over-reacting IMO.

I don't know what you mean by fighting fire with fire here. If you mean becoming like Repugs, stealing elections, lying and cheating --that is absolutely what I DON'T mean. I mean fighting by the usual honorable means of peaceful resistance that MLK embodied.

Of course everyone deals with an abusive scenario differently, and it makes sense to discuss it so people can figure out where they individually stand. This situation we find ourselves in right now is unprecedented in American history IMO. Many rational people just don't know what to make of it. They didn't bargain for it. They don't even know if voting will work anymore.

<Sorry to use the misleading word "cheerfully"--although there are some people who cheerfully take it, they aren't on DU as a rule.>
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madmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. Thanks for the detailed response.
It not only clarified your point, but it lit up my idiot light a couple of times. I love reading posts that do that.

What you say makes sense, and I agree we cannot completely emulate the Amish. It is probably culturally impossible since they have been practicing it for generations.

What the OP meant to me is to move away from the All Enemy, All the Time brainwashing we are conditioned with by cable news. We jump from one tragedy to the next and as we sit and watch the TV, helpless, we can only get frustrated. We are bombarded by story after story like Orwell's Two Minutes of Hate.

There is no room or time for forgiveness. There isn't even time to develop any deeper understanding before we jump to the next story.

Attack, attack, attack, and it doesn't matter much what the story is. If it bleeds, it leads, and all the better!

Maybe the reason this Amish story resonates so well is because the media fiasco finally had to stop and think.

Thanks for your insights, and thanks for letting me have the opportunity to experience them for myself. I really mean that.
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Leopolds Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 11:57 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. "Aggressive" or "unforgiving" righteousness will not get people off couch
...or out of the mall.

A vituperative attack on the callous, life-destroying materialism of contemporary "western" culture is the only thing that will.

And both Jesus and MLK made such critiques.
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #13
18. the results are the same-
those 10 girls are no less dead/wounded than if the 'english' had come into their lives with the 'sane' intention of terrorizing and killing them. (in my view an oxymoron).

If you want to abuse the abusers before you 'hand them over to god' then be prepared to be abused for abusing the abusers who abused.... don't you get it? WHY? f*&k it? WHY? is it so hard to comprehend, that doing to others, things we would never wish on ourselves, things that we find completely unacceptable- is one of the few ABSOLUTES in this weary world.??

As a survivor of CSA- a survivor who was the age of the 'children' that the man who did this to the Amish Community said his VICTIMS were- and of acts, which scarred my body AND soul forever, the thing that just didn't 'ring true' to me, was that he was doing this as a kind of REVENGE for having done terrible things to begin with..... ???????-------- no, I don't 'get it'- The very LAST thing I would ever do to another being is what was done to me- I can't understand his wanting to abuse others, because he abused others as a 12yr old. It's entirely possible he believes his little daughter died as punishment from god for what he did, but hurting more people wouldn't make anything better- And I do not believe god 'killed' his daughter.

The Amish aren't 'cheerfully' taking this loss. They feel it with every bit of reality you or I do- But, they strive to live the life they believe they were called to live- to live as if 'they' were the "other" person. What would you do if you woke up as *? Personally, I believe I'd eat a bullet- asap- I could never live with the weight of guilt that would bury me- If * were actually able to show 'empathy' to TRULY have compassion, he wouldn't be the fool he is- he wouldn't treat others as if they were doormats- or objects put on earth for his USE.

I don't care if *'s listening- I'm listening to the sound of my own footsteps, to the ring of my own voice, to the words and deeds I leave behind everywhere I go- and often I regret having acted on impulse, or with less patience and compassion than I know I should, in those cases, I seek to make things right- and to do better next time. Peace isn't something we can shove down anothers throat- or something we can 'strong arm' others into accepting. The life we live, the life and actions the Amish who have chosen to respond to this painful, terrifing attack upon their communal family with, is the best response. It does NOT breed more hatred, suffering, and loss- I costs them the temporary 'release/relief' that vengence and anger might bring them, but it repays them in the knowledge that while we cannot stop others from doing wrong to people we love, we CAN stop ourselves and encourage those we love from doing wrong to others. And that is the best, and only 'good' outcome.

This whole issue is very distressing to me- too distressaing. I'm sorry if it feels like I'm unloading on you- I just can't understand vengence- becoming the monster we have suffered under...

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marions ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 10:29 PM
Response to Reply #18
24. whew-OK well
you don't need to feel bad about "unloading." Don't worry, I don't take it personally, if it makes you feel better to get that out there, then OK. I'm a big believer in using words and discharging (in a safe way) as a means of resolving pent-up emotion, and connecting with others who have shared the experience. So anyway, no problem.

I'm not sure you're really getting what I'm saying. I understand that people deal with painful abusive experiences differently and the best response in many cases may (may) be to forgive and let go. I am differentiating between the Amish murders and the current assault on Democracy as we know it in America. I am saying that when you have a thing like the Amish murders, there is nowhere to put "blame"--the guy was crazy--it was as sudden as a hurricane. But when you look at our political situation, the blame MUST be placed squarely where it belongs, or we will no longer live in a Democracy.

The blame falls on the House of B*sh but also on other key players in the administration, others in politics and law. I'm not talking about ABUSING the political criminals (WTF?--you're taking me too literally)--I'm talking about holding them accountable...which is NOT happening to the degree that it needs to, partly because of our lack of effective regulatory mechanisms. I'm talking about HOLDING THEM ACCOUNTABLE before "handing them over to God." I don't waste much compassion on Bushco--they are not anybody I would imagine being. They're pathetic of course, but around the level of slime mold as far as evolution is concerned. This isn't hate, it's just disgust. I imagine them floating in a large septic tank when I think of them. Their legacy is so damaging. Maybe one day when we are safely rid of them we can have a national catharsis, but as you well know, it takes time to get there. And you still have to do something with the anger of being abused, to get to a place of greater peace.

Don't think I'm talking abstractly here. I have felt serious abuse, though it wasn't physical as much as mental. Of course mental abuse has a subtle negative effect on the body that is often overlooked. I have seen people trample on people even after they have died. So I have been an unsuspecting victim, I know what it feels like. But I never thought I would see the government serially abusing the entire country to the degree that we are witnessing now. We are suffering mental and even physical abuse at the hands of our criminal "leaders." It is not wrong -or overly aggressive -to object to this.

For the Amish situation, they responded (at least in public) the best way they could according to their beliefs. For our political situation, we must fight back IMO. I think of it as redirecting the negativity coming at us, not anything as useless as seeking revenge for the sake of it. No, we must be effective in moving BEYOND the limited vision of the hijackers parading as leaders in Washington. It's not necessary to forgive these limited people. It's just necessary to move beyond them.

I don't mean to make you feel any worse. Just trying to explain myself. I'm sure there is no huge disagreement between us here, just misunderstanding that comes from having to use a limited amount of words to express complex thoughts. :)
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 05:10 PM
Response to Original message
16. "Let there be peace on earth, and let it begin with me"
Thanks, Erica. For all the problems with the Amish community, and there are some, we definitely have something to learn from them, don't we?

Now, if you can figure out how to get that peace started right here at DU, wouldn't that be wonderful?!

Thanks for a thoughtful post! :applause:
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think4yourself Donating Member (422 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 05:53 PM
Response to Original message
19. Amish neighbors
Grew up a couple miles from that school. Once again the quietest voices speak the loudest. So sad, the whole situation...

Peace
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-08-06 05:53 PM
Response to Original message
20. Those people are so amazing, they have truly convinced...
me of the power of forgiveness. We don't all have to be a religious, but I tell you we can all use the peace and friendship and courage they have.

OPCKelly
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paparush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-09-06 12:25 AM
Response to Original message
27. Peace and Humility. Wow. I'm almost moved to tears..
These people suffer a horrific event (a small 9/11 if you will) and how do they respond? Peace and Humility. Jesus Christ. Let us end wars and violence. What an amazing example they are setting. Living simply so that others may simply live. Living their beliefs.
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