Are you angry at the Republicans?

[originalpckelly]

Do you hate them? How does that help this country get back on track? Could you ever forgive them for what has happened? (Forgiveness doesn't mean saying they are innocent, but it does mean you don't feel angry.)

Anger really doesn't accomplish anything, because if we want them to change their minds about something we must be nice to them. No one is willing to listen to someone else when the other person is simply yelling at them in anger.

If we win the November elections, we will have a solemn duty to bring America back from the brink. We will have to make sure everyone understands there is only one America, and that the impasse we have reached threatens the existence of that nation. The impasse will only be resolved if we find acceptable solutions to the problems. And we can only do that if we remove the anger from politics.

[lonestarnot]

1. Oh bullshit. Anger has helped me survive these nearly six years

of bushitler. No time to stop now.

[originalpckelly]

5. Forgiveness does not mean allowing them to continue...

their path of destroying the US Constitution, it does mean that you shouldn't hate them for what has happened, you should forgive them for their mistakes. They should be punished, if they have committed crimes, but that is different than not hating them.

[lonestarnot]

27. You're the one talking hate, I just said I was angry. I don't know

if I'm past the hate yet either. And no, I'm not ready to forgive theives, liars, serial killers, perverts and fuckwads. Not yet. So don't even try to tell ME how to feel. You know that is not possible and if you didn't now you do.

[originalpckelly]

31. Can you please explain to me how your anger will change the...

situation?

[lonestarnot]

51. Yes for starters, it got about 50 people thinking about events all

at the same time just this past week when bushitler came to my town. It gives me the energy to hang hundreds of signs as we are the media. It gives me the energy to register voters, go to meetings and on and on. It gives me the strength to never let up, not in the grocery store line, restaurants, school, bank, driving, sleeping (I dream of new ways to shine the light on the deceivers). There is no limit to what energy anger creates.

[Homer Wells]

91. I don't believe that they were "mistakes"

IMHO, it is my contention that all the efforts they have made to change this country, destroying our Constitution in the process has been deliberate and calculated.
They're like the pet snake you keep in your backyard; interesting to observe, but keep em caged. I'm a forgiving man, but give me a break.Forgiveness is not an option.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

11. delete - wrong spot

[bullimiami]

2. yes i hate them. no i dont expect to be forgiving them in this lifetime.

if there is a god let it forgive them.

[napi21]

3. I don't hate all Pubs, but I have to say, for the first time in my life,

I detest whatthis Pub Prez has done to my Country! I honestly don't consider him a Pub. He and his close knit group are an aberation, and one that I hope willbe incarcerated and never return again!

I guess I;m just weird, but I don't like extremistson either end!

[Malikshah]

4. Wow-- neuter much?

Sounds all lovely and nice, but completely unrealistic and more importantly counter productive.

Anger is a natural human emotion. People need to get over it. And also get over the idea that it "doesn't accomplish anything"

Anger sends a message. Anger controlled can be quite effective in relaying the realism of the situation.

But..

If one wants to have a solitary conversation by asking "Are you angry at the Republicans" and then in the second paragraph state "Anger really doesn't accomplish anything".... go right ahead.

Enjoy the oblivion.

[originalpckelly]

12. No, you are completely wrong...

but I forgive you for that. Did Dr. Martin Luther King hate the whites of the South who oppressed the African Americans? He just wanted things to change, and I guarantee you anger doesn't really help motivate the world to change. Look at the AMAZING progress that was made using non-violent methods. The central part of that is not being angry, being determined to accomplish our goal of helping America, but not being angry.

[Malikshah]

29. Uh-- right back at you about the incorrect business...

Anger does not equal violence.

Maybe you missed that whole thing about anger being controlled.

Again-- the circular firing squad method of discourse doesn't always work.

Work out the logic puzzles first then productive discussion will follow.

[originalpckelly]

36. Anger usually ends in violence...

what point does violence serve? None really. Anger is the same.

"Nonviolence means avoiding not only external physical violence but also internal violence of spirit. You not only refuse to shoot a man, but you refuse to hate him." --Dr. Martin Luther King

[Union Thug]

But I believe that violence is necessary in some circumstances.

No, not to fight wars of the elite. Fuck that. This is why I never joined the military - I was never able to see how anyone but the rich benefitted from war. However, I did see how strike breakers came after my father and how my father and his brothers stopped this shit. And it wasn't through forgiveness.

[spoony]

70. Strange.

My family has been involved in union issues for decades, and none of us have ever had to break a knee or throw a molotov cocktail.

[agincourt]

6. I don't have much hard feelings to republicans

it's ditto pig brown-shirts I hate, and that is what they've become.

[Guaranteed]

7. Don't remove the anger- but think clearly. nt

[graywarrior]

8. Ashamed to say, yes, I hate them.

Wish I didn't, but I do.

[eShirl]

9. let's just bake them cookies and shine their shoes

no thanks

[originalpckelly]

15. Did I say that? Forgiving someone does not mean giving up...

your cause, it simply means not wasting energy on something that is pointless. Anger really doesn't accomplish anything accept to hurt people and make them even angrier.

We should be even more dedicated to our goal, but we should forgive them.

[eShirl]

17. Did I say anything about wasting energy on anger?

I just think "being nice" to them is moronic.

[originalpckelly]

23. Forgiving someone and not being angry at them...

is not being nice. And I should mention I don't mean their leaders, but the people at the bottom. Just because you don't go up and kick someone in the ass, doesn't mean you are being nice to them (such as giving them money or something else.)

[eShirl]

42. your words

"Anger really doesn't accomplish anything, because if we want them to change their minds about something we must be nice to them."

[originalpckelly]

47. I am being quite imprecise...

I have only just realized this. Anger just isn't working and it gives them an excuse to not listen, to write us off, to fulfill their preconceptions that we are evil angry lefties. You do want them to change their minds, right? Do you think you would change your mind if someone was yelling at you? I know I wouldn't, it is kind of common sense.

[eShirl]

64. no, I don't really care if they change their minds or not.

the ones who will have already changed their minds. the ones who won't at this late date, probably never will.

[originalpckelly]

83. So what do you plan on doing...

killing half the country off? You know you'll have to listen to them, and they'll have to listen to you if we ever to get past this impasse in our nation's affairs.

[eShirl]

84. so it's either be nice to them or kill them?

you're nuts.

[originalpckelly]

87. If you aren't planning to change their minds...

then how are you planning to stop their agenda? If we win the election this year it will be because people on their side disliked how their party has operated, not because they believe in our principles. If we want to continue to be in power if we win, we'll have to bring some people from their side over to ours. It may seem impossible, but only thinking it is has made so impossible. People have given up on the art of thinking and persuasion, in favor of angry labels and angry words. I think a lot of Americans have been turned off by politics because it isn't about positive things anymore, just how much someone else screwed up. It is very hard to motivate people for a long time by hatred and anger, but I am quite certain people can be motivated by hope and happiness.

[eShirl]

92. their grip on power is falling apart without any help

It's their responsibility to change their own minds, or not. I'm not going to argue forever with people who cannot and will not be reached - the "dead-enders." Go ahead if you want to though, knock yourself out.

[originalpckelly]

95. Yes, obviously some people are so consumed...

by hate and irrationality they are very difficult to get to, but we won't need to worry about them to stay in power. I highly doubt that 1/2 half of America are dead-enders. We shouldn't write off half the country's population. Or maybe I'm wrong in saying that.

[eShirl]

102. who said anything about writing off half the country's population?

I'm pretty sure it wasn't me.

[spoony]

72. Nice that you equate forgiveness with weakness. n/t

[NEOBuckeye]

10. Abolish the F*cking Party, I say

I don't hate Republicans as people, but their damned head-in-the-sand, Dark Age institution needs to go, or at least be broken up.

Maybe they can reorganize as a few smaller parties, and we can do the same with the Dems, to make more of a European-style, multi-party coalition system that better represents everyone's interests -- and leaves the fringe interests at the distant edges of power.

[marions ghost]

62. that would be a BIG improvement

[dflprincess]

13. A few of us were discussing this sort of thing this evening

and agreed that we're going to be damn mad if the Democrats take control of Congress and then pull some BS about "reaching across the aisle, national unity good of the country" crap. I want Bushco to pay for what they've done.

[originalpckelly]

18. I want to see anyone who has broken the law...

international or national prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. But I think we can do that and not hate the Republicans. I simply want them to change their minds, and I have come to realize they won't change their minds if we are mad at them. You just need to think about yourself, would you really listen to and think about what another person is saying, if they are mad at you and yelling at you?

[marions ghost]

73. you are operating like a liberal...

but there are some people in the world who just don't think like "us."

FIRM CLEAR NEGATIVE STATEMENTS to them ("your agenda sucks and your representatives are criminals") is absolutely what they DO understand. They understand 'legal limits' (not moral limits). They don't appreciate playing nice. It's not in their repertoire. To be most effective, you deal with people as they are, not as you'd like them to be.

This problem about what to do when confronted with the brainwashed or twisted is not a matter of "hate." It's a matter of standing firm. There is nothing wrong with projecting negativity at the source from which it came. Non-violently of course. That is one way to get it outside of yourself. You can do this and feel very balanced, rather than guilty because you were "negative" and holding grudges. No sense turning it back on yourself.

Perhaps there are some who might be persuaded to 'change their minds' if they tried but the hardcore do not have that capacity. It's useless to bother. Everyone has to decide for themselves who are those worth bothering with. Coping with these types can too easily become habitual denial, a swallowing of honest emotion. That is how people become repeatedly victimized...by being too nice and forgiving, no matter what the abuse.

It's time to draw a line in the sand. We will get respect for that. Be an example of the right way to think, that's all. We really shouldn't have to work at rehabbing others. The smart ones from the dark side will get on board (I don't mean "become a Dem"--just get on board with reality). The ones who don't, you really DON'T want.

[Union Thug]

40. If the Dems win, there should be NO bipartisan efforts...

We should aggressively dismantle every goddamned thing that the repukes have put in place since they invoked Asmodeus as architect of their political, social and economic strategies. And then give them a swift kick in the teeth for good measure.

[originalpckelly]

41. Well you are right about the first part...

but what does a good swift kick in the teeth entail?

[Union Thug]

65. Catharsis. n/t

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

14. Be NICE to them?

I don't think so. Not any more. Don't forget: These are the guys who want to torture people and hold them in secret prisons forever. Being "nice" to people who think that way guarantees disaster. "Nice" is spineless DLC triangulation, and we know how well that's worked. And, frankly, after watching Bush and the Republicans crap on the Constitution for the last six years, I am not at all disposed to be even slightly nice.

[originalpckelly]

20. The DLC are sellouts, but not because they are "nice"...

but because they have adopted the policies of the Republicans. We shouldn't abandon our policy, but we should realize you attract more flies with honey than with vinegar.

[cynatnite]

16. I'm pissed as hell at the repukes in D.C.

The average repub in my neighborhood or family...nope. They've been duped and wish to continue to be duped of their own free will. I know this because of my RW mother. She's still a bushbot despite everything I tell her and show her. I can't hate her or be that pissed at her. It serves no purpose.

But my anger at those in D.C. who lie, steal, cheat and support this regime is unrelenting. It's because of that I actively seek to drive them out of power.

[mmonk]

19. If I did not love my country,

I would decide not to impeach like Pelosi.

[originalpckelly]

25. Impeachment is necessary if they have committed crimes...

and that is pretty much a given. On the other hand, we should not hold anger towards them, we should simply want them to stop acting like assholes.

[mmonk]

35. Not really possible for me.

[judaspriestess]

21. I'm more disgusted with them

they repulse me and their stupid sheep followers.

[Union Thug]

22. The animosity is ongoing. There are peaks and valleys, but

in the end, it's always been about class war and it always will be so long as we allow the current social structure to exist. So yes, as a working person, I do hate them.

Republicans, at least those that actually benefit from conservative policies, measure the worth of a human being in the amount of profit they can generate. Beyond that, we are nothing to them. They deserve nothing but our contempt.

[cool user name]

28. Ditto ...

[Jcrowley]

24. "Anger is a virtue"

- Thomas Aquinas

[originalpckelly]

26. It is easy to be angry...

while on the other hand it is very hard to forgive someone. I would say that forgiveness is more virtuous than anger because of that.

[lonestarnot]

30. Why are you preaching tonight? Church tomorrow?

[originalpckelly]

37. I do not attend a church.(nt)

[Dem2theMax]

39. (shhhhhhhh. don't tell.)

(the amish are visiting us tonight.) (pass it on.) (shhhhhh.)

[originalpckelly]

43. I was somewhat inspired by them...

but there have been people less strange who believe in forgiveness, one who you probably think of in a positive way: Dr. Martin Luther King and Gahndi. (And the people of the former Soviet Union.)

[lonestarnot]

49. Hey you, nobody said there's a damn thing wrong with forgiveness

but the forgivee can't when told when and where. Lighten up with this crap.

[originalpckelly]

52. I know, I am strongly suggesting you forgive...

it will help you clear your mind and think of ways to stop the cabal. Strongly suggesting because I can't make you do anything at all.

[lonestarnot]

54. That's right. You can't make me do anything.

neener neener neener. But you are aggrandizing yourself by the act of putting yourself in the position of forgiver and maybe you are ready for that, which is fine. Many here are not, I am one. You cannot "tell" people how to feel, suggesting is about the same thing. Thank you. Peace out.

[originalpckelly]

56. Have a good night!

[lonestarnot]

57. Thanks you too.

[Union Thug]

32. Why? Why forgiveness? I'm not trying to be oppositional, I just

wonder why you think forgiveness is the answer. thx.

[originalpckelly]

38. You being angry just makes you less happy...

do you want someone else making you unhappy? What does you being angry and unhappy accomplish? Only action and convincing the other side to stop what they are doing will make the situation better. If anything, anger will only make it less likely they will listen to you.

[Union Thug]

48. What makes me unhappy is watching these sons of bitches...

use the policy machine of the United States of America to fuck my family, friends and fellow workers. My anger is a direct result of this. This isn't a Pollyanna world. It took both policy makers and street muscle to win what little workers were able to secure for themselves over the course of the twentieth century. And now (over the last 30 years) it's all being taken away.

I'm not unhappy because I'm angry. You've got it all wrong. I'm unhappy because of how we've been treated. Anger drives my motivation to keep fighting.

[originalpckelly]

53. So you wouldn't be able to do all those good things...

without being angry? Couldn't you just want to change things and do that? Couldn't you want to do something positive for them and yourself?

[Union Thug]

63. It's not as simple as you want it to be.

We have two competing interests that cannot be reconciled within the social-economic framework of the USA.

Working people are hated by the business interests. To them, we are a necessary evil, and they eliminate us whenever possible - read offshoring for example. They are the ones that keep us competing with eachother for table scraps while they lap up all the gravy. They are the ones who are keeping our wages down, cutting our benefits and turning us into indentured servants of the modern age.

And why should I forgive them, again? Can you give me one single reason that forgiving them would help us in out plight?

[Homer Wells]

96. There is a big difference

between "blind anger" in which one loses control and ends up consuming himself, and "focused anger", which helps people to zero in on the inequities and abuse that has been focused on them, and seek to correct them. This "focused anger" is highly necessary in order to promote our agenda of moving us away from the brink of total loss of our rights and our country.

[Union Thug]

33. DUPE_ SELF DELETE

[Jcrowley]

34. On the contrary

"He that is angry without cause, shall be in danger; but he that is angry with cause, shall not be in danger: for without anger, teaching will be useless, judgments unstable, crimes unchecked." Therefore to be angry is not always an evil.

I answer that, properly speaking anger is a passion of the sensitive appetite, and gives its name to the irascible power, as stated above. If one is angry in accordance with right reason, one's anger is deserving of praise.

[LostInAnomie]

44. What would be the point of forgiveness and being the bigger person?

Honestly? We can forgive. We can reach across the aisle and try to be bipartisan, but it will get us nowhere. As soon as we give a little and allow the Repukes a little respite they will stab us in the backs. They can not be trusted. All they want is power and they will do anything to keep it or take it.

The Republican party needs to be driven into the dirt. They need to be pummeled to the ground and stomped until they there is nothing left of them. They can not be allowed to EVER get power back. Because once they have it they will do all they can to destroy us.

[originalpckelly]

50. We will not let them do that. We will not support their hatred...

but we will only serve to give them another target to be angry at if we continue to be angry at them. We must remember the power of non-violence and non-anger. At one time the whites of the south were filled with rage against blacks. Any violent action against them would have only prompted them to be angrier.

We are faced with a similar situation, but much less anger is exhibited towards us. We should be able to carry out extensive change, because the hurtles we face are far less than Dr. King and his supporter's.

[LostInAnomie]

69. You don't seem to understand that it is a battle for hegemony.

The rich will not accept anything short of plutocracy. The evangelicals will not accept anything short of theocracy. The neo-cons will not accept anything short of empire. The Republican party is made of groups that will accept nothing but total domination. We could be as saintly as possible and neither their goals nor methods would change.

You can't make peace with people that want to rule you.

[originalpckelly]

85. The rich only have political power because we have let them get it...

Did this nation not learn about non-violence from the overthrow of Jim Crow? My goodness it's about the same dang thing, whites wanted to dominate blacks, and had completely ruled over them with an iron fist for a very very long time. If blacks could change their fate from completely despised to just normal people (with the occasional dumb fuck klan asshole screwing lives up) we can do the same.

It really isn't much in the best interests of the working people and even higher earning people of hundred thousand dollar salaries under $300,000 to vote for the Republicans. So we ought to encourage people on their side to think our way. Like I said earlier, thinking that people can't be changed isn't really helpful, because I think with enough explanation we can get them to think like us.

[marions ghost]

101. No....

the rich have all the political power because they have taken it. Money allows them to do that.

"We have let them" is ridiculous.

[LostInAnomie]

108. Who are you trying to kid with this civil rights stuff?

The two situations are not comparable.

At best the civil rights fight shows that those that are entrenched in power have to be dragged kicking and screaming until they submit. The South had to be forced to submit to all civil rights progression for 100 years. The South didn't free the slaves, give the right to vote, end Jim Crowe, integrate schools, etc. out of the goodness of their hearts, or because they were moved by anyone's plight. They did those things because they were forced to by reformers.

You can't reform ideologues (and the Republican party is almost nothing but). They have to be driven under until they and their ideology die off.

[originalpckelly]

112. You can most easily kill an ideology by convincing...

people to no longer believe in it. There will undoubtedly will be people who won't change their minds, but in a nation which votes to elect leaders they cannot get power without votes.

[LostInAnomie]

115. Really?

How well do you think that you will be able to convince evangelicals to change their goals? How well do you think you will be able to convince big business that social programs are necessary? How well do you think that you will be able to convince pro-life or gun nuts to not just vote on one issue?

The answer is that you won't. You won't be able to convince them because they have a vested interest in not being convinced. You can talk about appealing to people's better nature until you are blue in the face but the truth is that in modern politics and even modern society, it does not work. It is a battle for hegemony. After you've won and broken the other's spirit then you can offer forgiveness.

[benEzra]

117. Half of "gun nuts," as you term us, are NOT repubs...

between a quarter and a third of Dems and indies own guns, and most of us are NOT hunters.

You want to make guns a non-issue in an election? Stay the hell out of people's gun safes, and fight on the issues that MATTER instead of trying to shove another gun ban down our throats.

Gore would have never lost TN and WV in '00 had he not run on a ban-more-guns agenda, and most of the gun owners he alienated were probably registered Dems. Kerry/Edwards had the same problem in '04, with Edwards losing his own home state of NC 45%/55%, even as NC's pro-gun Democratic governor was reelected 55%/45%.

Alienated Rural Democrat

[LostInAnomie]

118. I didn't realize that Kerry ran on an anti-gun platform.

That's what I love about gun nuts. You can't even mention the issue without them going into hysterics. "You want to make guns a non-issue in an election? Stay the hell out of people's gun safes, and fight on the issues that MATTER instead of trying to shove another gun ban down our throats." I love that line. It shows the mentality of a lot of gun crazies. They would rather ignore the issues that do matter (like the ones Gore and Kerry pushed) and vote on one issue and one issue alone. It's easy to tell where their priorities are.

Thanks for proving my point. Ideologues have a vested interest in not being convinced.

And, before you start the inevitable tirade about anti-gun commies like me wanting Big Brother to take our rights away I'll have you know that I own three guns myself.

[benEzra]

119. My point is, why MAKE it an issue?

The DLC made a colossal mistake when its leading lights made broader gun bans a legislative priority in the early '90s. Prior to that, it wasn't an issue, nor does it need to be.

[Raksha]

67. I can totally relate to what you said, but you left something out:

The Republican party needs to be driven into the dirt. They need to be pummeled to the ground and stomped until they there is nothing left of them. They can not be allowed to EVER get power back. Because once they have it they will do all they can to destroy us just like they are doing now!

[originalpckelly]

88. My friend are you suggesting that we prevent other people...

from exercising their right to free speech and to vote for whomever they choose? Why not just work to convince people on their side that we are right? Would you want the Republicans to have power over you and crush our party into the dirt? No, you wouldn't, and in fact I know I and many other people in our country would give our last breath to stop that. But it is not simply defense of the Democratic party or its ideals that I would be defending, but really the right to express ones-self freely. I would gladly die to protect the other side's right to speak, as I'd hope they would do for me. That is the way we operate in America, we may not support their policies, but we do support their rights, as they should ours.

[marions ghost]

98. yes

After the correction, then consider "forgiveness."

[katsy]

45. "everyone understands there is only one America,"

That may be our goal.

But think about this... there is no such thing as one America save for the intelligent (of modest means), the working poor (middle class), retirees and a handful of have mores. A majority you think? Most assuredly. Yes, we want one America.

Unfortunately, there's a religiously insane who want a theocracy (and the taxpayer $ for their faith-based programs). There is no such thing as one America for them. At least not one most of wish to live in.

Then there's the plutocrats and corporate $. They have no country, honor, loyalty, conscience or ethics. Their bottom line is accumulating wealth and if America becomes a shithole (which it is for many) they have the means to move on.

The theocrats have money, but the plutocrats and corporate whores own the world. They get what they pay for... government and media.

Think about it... if we all put in every cent we could possibly survive without, it wouldn't match their power.

This may well be our time to do some things to even the playing field:

1. legislate corporate $ out of politics & cut "k" street loose (no lobbyist access to our representatives).

2. break up conglomerates, nationalize energy and healthcare.

3. bring back fairness in media, break up entertainment/news conglomerates.

4. repeal faith-based programs (no taxpayer money at all - ever again).

5. establish fair trade legislation, close outsourcing tax loopholes.

6. kill school voucher programs, put $ into public schooling pre-k thru 2 year degrees.

7. paper ballots.

Do you think any of the 7 above will happen?

[originalpckelly]

55. Well certainly, if you devote your time and get other people...

to devote their time. But unless you plan on killing half of the country, you're going to have to change some minds out there. Right now there are people who are under the impression that is bad (for what reason I have NO CLUE!) But if we want to change the way that things operate and therefore the way that they think, we are going to have to lose the anger. No one likes being yelled at, though I don't think many people would be upset at a good conversation where you explain why you think something is better.

[katsy]

60. I have no problem with what you are saying.

No one can thrive in a country divided.

But I do not believe public discourse will change without some ground rules. That begins with fairness in the media and having a transparent government.

[originalpckelly]

89. Absolutely...

if there are to be a few big monopolies in the news business, they should strive to be completely non-partisan and provide no biased news coverage or analysis (sometimes that will mean having people from opposite sides of bias.)

I'm glad to see you are constructive unlike those around us. I cannot believe so few people on DU are willing to embrace the methods of Dr. King.

[Rex]

46. The irony of course is we sit back and watch the GOPers self destruct.

It would be funny if it didn't hurt the country. Why be angry when you can be mad? They screw everything up and fall apart that much faster. Even conservatives don't like to be called Republicans. Funny and sad.

[originalpckelly]

58. You see their anger has been their undoing...

the Evangelicals on their side hate gay people, and the corporate Republicans used that hatred and increased it to win elections. Now that the Evangelicals have discovered how many gay people work for the corporate Republicans, they are probably not going to vote and cost their party the election. Their hatred was self-destructive and defeated their goals of hurting gay people.

I am willing to bet all hatred is self-destructive, including our own. Hence the post.

[Rex]

61. Well yes hate is a very strong emotion, but common civility calls upon

us to rise above the hate. Maybe being mad or angry at Repukers is wrong, I know it can lead to one becoming jaded and maybe even stereotyping ALL Republicans. I've met some very nice ones, some are even my relatives, they're just dumber than hell.

Pity is a good replacement for hate. I can still be mad.

[originalpckelly]

59. Good night all...

just wanted to let you all know if you wanted to respond I won't be responding because I am going to bed now.

[Greatwildbeast]

66. What was the name of that movie?

You know the film where all these middle American people come through the field acting like zombies trying to hack away at those hiding in the farmhouse? Old folk, kids, husbands and wives etc. All had that starry eyed look and unable to be talkied out of their murderous intentions?

maybe there were several of these horror flicks.

But that's your basic GOP Diehard.

[seabeyond]

68. i am angry, i dont hate them or anyone else, and i am so beyond forgiving

people do the things they do for a reason.... i am not in a place to forgive. not mine to forgive

but i am angry..... and no it is not helpful, just a reality

[zanne]

82. I'll never take them at their word again.

When Clinton was in the White House, I used to get angry at their constant criticism of him, but I thought that at least they had the courage of their convictions. Now I realize that their "convictions" are whatever will keep them in power. With Republicans, the truth stops at "hello".

[spoony]

71. I'm with you.

Winning back power will be pointless if people's anger won't let the country heal. We could all learn a thing or two from the Amish community's response to the school shooting.

[originalpckelly]

90. I know, the Amish are strange as a culture...

but we could learn a great deal from their forgiveness. They are obviously a little extreme, but they do understand that being angry won't stop someone from doing something, or make reality any better. If anything anger just makes things worse.

[hsher]

74. I don't hate them per se

Warning: rant.

I don't hate Republicans. This sounds disingenuous, but I have a few Republican friends. Overall I find them idealistic, naive and too trusting. Oddly, they are also often financially generous: far more so than I've found us to be. This may be why their causes are well-funded, while ours struggle.

I would ask me instead whether I hate the Christian fundamentalist neocon Republicans who are in the game secretly because they want to use politics as a power base from which to torment the minorities they envy and hate, such as gays and lesbians, and to "better control women". These are the people who refer to feminists and other women as "having a Jezebel spirit". I actually heard a Christian acquaintance of mine use that term. I described a kind of mouthy, outspoken woman we both knew, and referring to her, he said, "Oh, ____. Yes, she has a Jezebel spirit." If I had lighter skin, I think I would have blanched white as a ghost hearing him say that.

Especially when I saw the look in his eyes that accompanied it. It was such *hatred* towards strong women. I've seen that same eerie blank look in the eyes of Aryan supremacists describing their mission. Then there is also the Christian woman I met in a medical office, whose eyes took on the same gleamy look, and who put up a wall, when she and I suddenly divided off in a fork in conversation at the subject of stay-at-home moms. "A woman should *stay* in the home," she chirped, then fixed me with a somewhat mean version of my Christian acquaintance's "Jezebel" stare. She then asked, "I suppose you think you're enjoying yourself, what, working and all, without a man, and defying Christ. But you're not, really." And she smirked at me, straightening up her baby, who was in her lap.

Then there was the Christian who walked in on a conversation between myself and another free thinker, just at the point we were agreeing on a woman's right to choose. The Christian loudly condemned both of us, telling us we were hell-bound because "abortion is murder". I replied, "You know, you're right. In fact, to honor G-d, we should not only draw the line but draw it deeper and further. From now on, men shouldn't masturbate, because that kills millions of living sperm right there. Killing the unborn is murder. You are so right." And I gave him as authentic a gleaming Christian "Jezebel" stare as I could muster, acting my little butt off! He believed it!! He flushed beet red, then stammered and said, "I don't think that's what G-d meant... don't you... well, I think that's being a little extreme. You take the Bible a little too literally."

He believed me!!

These are the people I am going to find difficult to forgive much less trust, when the country is ours again. Part of me wants to hate them, because they know full well what they are doing. None of this is by accident or out of ignorance. It's out of a sincere, wicked desire to manage women and our sexuality, control male sexuality, and convert gays into hidden sex slaves for their veiled, hypocritical pleasure. I actually wrote a movie script about that. They are willfully using the Bible as a Trojan horse to force into greater society a host of sick, intrusive laws that mainly stem from their lack of self-control, and their projection of that lack onto us as their scapegoats. It happened in Germany at the end of the Weimar Republic. Germans driven to madness by lust and envious of the sexual freedom and artistic liberty in Berlin and other major cities flocked to the psychotic, Hitler, who gave them enough reign to exercise their sick, repressed, dysfunctional ideals. They made Jews, gypsies, gays, lesbians and artists their scapegoats, because these were the minorities whose freedom and lack of fear provoked their enormous envy.

If we are not careful, the word "liberal" will be painted on our shop-fronts and homes with a large "L", and we will become the next scapegoats of repressed, self-lying America's envy of free, open, true-to-self America: the latter are we. We should recognize how the word "liberal" is being spooned the exact same charge and venom in America as "Juden" was at the dawn of Nazi Germany. Those who say it can't happen here have not read history sufficiently carefully. Arm, organize, and be wise.

So I don't hate Republicans, per se. I think they can be dealt with without hatred. We should be exacting and firm with them, and completely ruthless and unrelenting. Just as you'd deal with a known alcoholic family member who's stolen from your purse before. That kind of response. You don't hate them, but you don't leave your purse with them anymore under any circumstances, you assume they are lying because they probably are, and you talk tough to them and back up your words with direct, ruthless, merciless action if they transgress. Only then does the alcoholic bottom out: when there's nobody left to accept his bs anymore, and the free ride runs out. We on the left need to shut our alcoholic opposite party in a small locked room and force them to bottom out. Hate doesn't have to enter that. Dispassion is actually the best policy. Hate only hooks you to their sickness, so avoid it.

My opinion on the Christians is more complex than that. Unlike the basic Republican, these people are basically evil. I guess it's the same answer but a different response. No hatred, and of course forgiveness, but instead of treating them the way you would an alcoholic, they should be treated as pedophiles or violent XYY sex offenders. Armed response, seizure and arrest, imprisonment under high security, and restriction of mail, communication, visits and movement.

But then I'm a radical, and I see solutions in very practical, unapologetic terms.


www.yourmorningleibowitz.blogspot.com
Yer Daily Show comic strip

[spoony]

75. You're not a radical, you're simply hateful.

"My opinion on the Christians is more complex than that. Unlike the basic Republican, these people are basically evil. I guess it's the same answer but a different response. No hatred, and of course forgiveness, but instead of treating them the way you would an alcoholic, they should be treated as pedophiles or violent XYY sex offenders. Armed response, seizure and arrest, imprisonment under high security, and restriction of mail, communication, visits and movement."

If any part of that was written with any less than 99% sarcasm, your best bet to find evil is in the mirror.

[hsher]

76. Three fingers

The Navaho have a saying: when you point the finger at someone, three fingers point back at you.

Here, you can use my mirror after I'm done with it.

[marions ghost]

103. Agreed it's not about hate

it's more about NOT setting ourselves up for any more abuse. Being EFFECTIVE in dealing with these twisted minds is the goal. You have to meet them on their ground, not expect them to come around just because you explain why they should. We're talking about disrupting negative emotional fixations, where polite logic or common sense approaches just don't work. Tuff Luv has to be very tough.

You said it well here, hsher:

"So I don't hate Republicans, per se. I think they can be dealt with without hatred. We should be exacting and firm with them, and completely ruthless and unrelenting. Just as you'd deal with a known alcoholic family member who's stolen from your purse before. That kind of response. You don't hate them, but you don't leave your purse with them anymore under any circumstances, you assume they are lying because they probably are, and you talk tough to them and back up your words with direct, ruthless, merciless action if they transgress. Only then does the alcoholic bottom out: when there's nobody left to accept his bs anymore, and the free ride runs out. We on the left need to shut our alcoholic opposite party in a small locked room and force them to bottom out. Hate doesn't have to enter that. Dispassion is actually the best policy. Hate only hooks you to their sickness, so avoid it."

Yep.

[ComerPerro]

77. I fucking hate all of them. Even republican VOTERS. all are guilty

and there are terrible people.


there simply is no excuse for supporting conservatives and Republicans.

If, after all this, you still do, you're not "misguided" or "well-intentioned" or "voting your morals" or "uninformed".

you are a sick motherfucking asshole and you deserve what you get.

[Brian Stevens]

81. Heres a plan

Go within the alotted feet from the polling place (law depending on state), ask every voter you see cross the legal line who they voted. If they say a republican, then beat the living fuck out of them. I did.

[ComerPerro]

111. LMAO

I find it funner to do things like hand them enlistment papers.

[Brian Stevens]

113. They ain't worth the army time. nt

[Warren DeMontague]

78. Frustrated, yes. But I do truly believe there aint no time to hate.

We've got a planet to fix, here.

That doesn't, in my mind, translate to "remove the anger from politics", however. There is a place for righteous indignation in the political dialogue, and when attacked, we need to fight back, and fight back HARD.

But like I said, personally, aint no time to hate. I think many of them genuinely believe the bullshit they've been fed; they honestly believe that the best way to fight fundamentalist nutjobs abroad is to let fundamentalist nutjobs at home shit all over the Constitution, fuck up the "war on terror" by invading Iraq, run the deficit through the roof (because lord knows the GOP hates "big government", ha ha!) and generally destroy our nation and the principles it was founded on.

I feel bad for a lot of them. They're clueless.

[fujiyama]

79. I can get along fine

with normal everyday people that have different political beliefs than me.

But I'm angry at people that will still defend the war using talking points and "facts" that have been debunked, support morally reprehensible policies like torture, believe that the rich and powerful have the right to do whatever they want to maintain that status, and continue to believe that the path this nation has taken over the past six years is the correct one.

I'm sorry, but it's difficult to defend or not be angry at willfull ignorance, which seems to be the case with the majority of those that consider themselves republicans. It's one thing if you're Dick Cheney - you're just plain evil, but it's even more difficult to listen to some person losing their healthcare, job, their son over in Iraq, and yet still go on that this war is fought because of 9/11 and that Dems will allow terrorists to attack if in power.

[Homer Wells]

99. A great many of the Kool Aid drinkers

have been brain-washed into believing that us "Liberullllls" are all evil and Jesus hating, and therefore anything that comes out of our mouths is evil and said to lead them away from their savior.
Because of this, they tend to close off what they are hearing, and blindly believe the lies of their Leaders.

[NNN0LHI]

80. I forgive easily. I don't forget so easily though n/t

[FlaGranny]

86. Not sure what you mean by forgiveness

If you mean to forget about pursuing them for crimes, then I can't agree. If we let them go (which, unfortunately, we probably will) then they will be free to come back in another incarnation and repeat what they've done. Punishment of criminals isn't so much to get even with the criminal, it is to protect society from the criminal. Put them away, discredit them, expose them, so they can do no more harm.

[originalpckelly]

93. Forgiveness is less about them and more about you...

why should those Republicans be worth you destroying your own happiness? You being unhappy will probably discourage you from taking positive action to stop their agenda.

And you are quite right about putting them away, these people are very dangerous. They are maniacs who have come into power through questionable means.

[lonestarnot]

100. Ok you're back? Me too. Now then, this is simply not true either.

(referencing your post above)I am happy as a lark, but still madder than hell, and had you read the answer to your question to me, this thread would already be over itself. You asked about what could come out of constructive anger, I answered you and then you went to bed without comment. Who would you rather have on your team if you were out to win an angry person or a person who forgave everything at the drop of the hat and was ready to just move on without question? The second person I guarantee would just not get the job done and would remain with the status quo. The status quo is no longer an option. To remain with the status quo is simply an excuse to do nothing and doing nothing is not an option either unless you want to except a facist's way of life. There is power in anger, and no one has to give up happiness in order to be angry, as I am living proof of that. The trick is to channel the anger into a constructive mechanism for change and not let the emotion overwhelm one into destructive behavior, either toward one's own person, or property. And another warning that should go without saying is that operation within the law is not immaterial. Angry lawful objection can displace what has been accomplished by these bastards in their undermining of this nations law and this nations humanity, ie torture, doing away with habeas corpus etc. Anger is a good thing. I think you are not saying what you really mean.

[marions ghost]

104. Right

when people are being serially abused, the anger stage IS the healthy stage. I think we would all agree there are ways to channel this anger effectively and ways in which it can be destructive. That's what people fear, that they can't control or direct this anger. But they can, and it can be very empowering to do so.

"Forgiveness" (or whatever you want to call it when you let go of a case against someone or a group)--has to come at an appropriate time too. It's not a one-size-fits-all ideal to be applied to any situation. That is too simplistic. Too passive. And it doesn't always work in achieving serenity if the fundamental grievances have not been addressed.

Forgiveness for abuse is something that is conditionally granted...AS LONG AS the abuse is not continuing, and there has been an effort to change the pattern and make amends. We're a LONG way from that with the Repuglicans.

[lonestarnot]

106. Long long long long way from that!

[marions ghost]

109. Have you ever

experienced abuse or serious grievance against you of the magnitude that is now going on in the macro level in this nation re. the government against the people?

Most people haven't and can't even relate to the experience. That's part of the reason why we as a group are caught unawares. But if you can grasp the nature of abuse (either through your own experience or of those close to you), you will find that forgiveness is hard won and is conditional.

[Hubert Flottz]

94. Yes but...

I'm really pissed at the faithful fools that still trust them.

[shayes51]

97. Is this a rhetorical question?

[conscious evolution]

105. Angry? HELL YES!!! FOrgiving? When the trap-door

on the gallows platform drops open.

[rucky]

107. I can multi-task.

Help fix the problems and hate the people who create them. I resent having to wipe other people's asses all the time.

[Arugula Latte]

110. This seems like such a silly, trivial thing to wory about.

After what those fuckers have done to our country, not to mention to tens of thousands of innocent Iraqis, feelings of hate and anger are completely justified. It's hardly an issue I'll spend time worrying about.

[guinivere]

114. Eventually, I could see myself forgiving them.

Not anytime in the near future. I hate what they have done. I hate the fact that they are criminals who keep changing the laws to suit their actions. I hate their lies, hypocrisy, and their arrogance.

I think the anger has inspired people to get involved. People that may not sign petitions, attend marches and rallies are doing so now. The anger may force people to pay closer attention to the news. Anger doesn't always turn into violence. It can be used as a tool for change.

[CanonRay]

116. You are right, of course, but I'm still MAD AS HELL!