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I think lost in all of this Foley mess is....

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Wetzelbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-05-06 05:28 AM
Original message
I think lost in all of this Foley mess is....
the fact that our country now condones TORTURE!

I mean seriously, can you believe it? When I was growing up I never would have believed we would have explicitly tossed out Habeas Corpus and endorsed torture. I know we have our problems, but this is the US! We aren't supposed to do this stuff. Now any damn citizen who voices dissent has to wonder if they will get tossed in a secret prison and waterboarded. It's a pretty sad time in our history. The Foley story is important, no doubt, and it is so sensational that it has blown everything out of water. Plus, Woodward finally realizing what we all knew 4 years ago and writing a book about it is big news in this cycle too. But, Woodie and Foley haven't been around since the Magna Carta, and Habeas Corpus has, and the US has had over 200 years of respect around the world.

I don't think I will ever get over the fact that that torture bill destroyed everything. What a shitty thing to do to our country and what we are supposed to stand for.
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Heidi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-05-06 05:32 AM
Response to Original message
1. I've wondered whether the GOP
knew about this Foley thing for a long time (they did; now confirmed) and threw Foley under the bus as a convenient distraction from the detainee bill. It worked for a while, but now it appears to be backfiring badly for them and that's just fine with me. The Foley debacle may well be _the_ straw. :hi:
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izzie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-05-06 06:46 AM
Response to Reply #1
21. I have felt that from the first. Bush is for Bush.
Every thing goes to keep him out of the hot water. Sort of the Truman deal back wards.
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exlrrp Donating Member (598 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-05-06 08:31 AM
Response to Reply #21
24. The Buck Starts Here
Thats the legacy of the Bush Administration
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-05-06 05:33 AM
Response to Original message
2. I hear you and mostly agree. The thing is, if the Foley story
gives us a handle, let's use it.

When the Torture Congress passed that bill, my heart broke, too. But, we have to keep moving and keep finding any way we can to get these felons out of power.

;(
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Wetzelbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-05-06 05:44 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. I mean besides the political stuff
of course, if it's going to take these guys down, by all means, use it, but in terms of historical significance and what we are supposed to be all about, the importance of the Torture Bill could never be understated.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-05-06 05:47 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. I know. Our governent is now officially our enemy.
They make all my civics teachers, liars.

:(
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vssmith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-05-06 05:40 AM
Response to Original message
3. I completely agree with you but I don't cares whatever it takes
to get rid of these bastards is fine with me. They have had way too much power for too long. I only hope that when the Democrats take over that they will exhibit some very large gonads.
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enigmatic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-05-06 05:50 AM
Response to Original message
6. We don't have the moral high-ground anymore
or I should say, what we thought was our moral high-ground.

We're a bloodthristy society, always have been. Some of it was righteous, some were genocidal, some were born out of nationalism. Apathy and fear keep those who think torture is ok chained; that itself is never going to change.


But there are enough good people here that we can do the only thing we can; show those crippled by fear and apathy that giving into both isn't necessary to be safe, that W and the Corporate Media has been scaring them to death and keeping them in fear. And we have to get them to realize that.

Some are lost causes, but not all. We just have to believe we can get through to the rest.

Can we? I hope so, because time is running out.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-05-06 05:57 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. If I never hear the words "hero" or "patriot" again it will be too soon.
The rampant mindless nationalism that was artificially induced after 9/11 has been nauseating. People really DON'T see through to the logical consequences. Not even here.
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Wetzelbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-05-06 05:57 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. Right on
Couldn't have said it better.

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enigmatic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-05-06 06:02 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. Mr. Kennedy could have!
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cleveramerican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-05-06 05:57 AM
Response to Original message
7. We are the new brutal dictators of Iraq
talk about betraying our founding fathers and all that we as a nation once stood for.

torture yes, rape and murder no, To hear Mcain paint this as some sort of honorable victory made me very sad
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-05-06 06:03 AM
Response to Reply #7
12. Welcome to DU, cleveramerican. It is saddening.
Well, let's see how we do.
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acmavm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-05-06 06:01 AM
Response to Original message
10. People really need to quit posting that all other issues are now forgiven
and forgotten now that Foley has brought the corruption inherent in the republican party into the focus of the American people.

The torture thing, or the spying issue, or the lies that got us to attack a sovereign nation that did nothing to us, these issues were not going to take down this bunch of people. America is now a National Equirer society and if it don't involve sex and betrayal, they just don't care. But throw in a few crotch references and viola, you can take down the government.

We need to use what we've got right now. Then when these guys are back in the unemployment line (or better yet prison) where they belong, we can fix the issues that really bring this nation to its knees in shame and infamy. (All thanks to the same party that gave us the Foley scandal.)
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enigmatic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-05-06 06:04 AM
Response to Reply #10
14. I'm with you
We have to get them out first and if it takes a sex scandal and the hypocrisy generated from it to topple the House Of W, I say bring it on :)
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-05-06 06:05 AM
Response to Reply #10
15. What do you have against string instruments?
:rofl:
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Wetzelbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-05-06 06:11 AM
Response to Reply #10
17. yeah but again, I am not talking about
politics. I mean something else. 100 years from now, nobody will care about Foley. They will care about our reputation in the world and the rights of our citizens. That's an important distinction. Yeah, whatever takes these guys down is fine, I really don't care. I do care about what is done and restored afterwards.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-05-06 06:14 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. There used to be a time and a sentiment in this country
when we cared about history. When we cared about world opinion. When what would be written about us mattered, mattered very much. And our leaders took the long view.

We're not there now. I don't know how this joint got so degraded.
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Pacifist Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-05-06 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #10
27. I'm always taken aback that just because one issue is hot...
that means others are being ignored. I've been following the Foley situation like a pig after truffles, but I also called Sen. Nelson's office this week and blessed him out for voting in favor of the Detainee bill. I'm quite capable of multi-tasking.
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acmavm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-05-06 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #27
29. I think you're referring to the 'Walk and Chew Gum Principal'
So many people don't think it's possible.
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Sherman A1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-05-06 06:04 AM
Response to Original message
13. Agreed
There is so much lost in the noise of the Foley mess, but at least it's a bad mess for the GOP and coupled with Woodward's nightly presence on the news programs or interviews, it's not a good time for the other team.
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radfringe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-05-06 06:09 AM
Response to Original message
16. Yes, torture and Iraq mess have been lost in the headlines
but SEX trumps all..

This would have faded already if it wasn't for the cover-up going on

The focus is now on Hastert - what did he know and when did he know it, very little attention on Foley's actual activities

:tinfoilhat: wouldn't surprise me if it's being pumped to divert attention from Iraq issues... </end :tinfoilhat: > although cutting off the repub's noses won't help bush hang onto his rubberstampers...


My toons on Comic Sherpa: http://www.comicssherpa.com/site/feature?uc_comic=cscwc
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Disturbed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-05-06 06:40 AM
Response to Reply #16
19. I think that the SC will overturn this horrible legislation.
I sure hope they do. :mad:
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donheld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-05-06 06:41 AM
Response to Original message
20. Your right, The abolishment of our constitution is
being drowned out by this Foley scandal.
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Vinca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-05-06 07:14 AM
Response to Original message
22. Everything is lost in the Foley scandal, but we have to take what
we can get when it comes to the MSM and the sheeple. At least at this point. Getting the majority is goal #1. We can't fix the mess in this country unless we win.
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soothsayer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-05-06 08:16 AM
Response to Original message
23. Yes, but there's a 100% chance no one is going to overturn this
or the patriot act or illegal (now legal) warrantless wiretapping, not even when we take back the house, senate, and the whole shebang in '08. THAT's the part that sucks.
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exlrrp Donating Member (598 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-05-06 08:35 AM
Response to Reply #23
25. Not 100%
No, there's a good chance this will be overturned by the SCOTUS--its blatantly unconstitutional and we can be cheered by the HAmdi decision--its not going to go all Bush's way.
I think that the Congress approved it only because they knew it would be overturned on appeal. That way they could gfo back and claim they did something
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badgerpup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-05-06 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #25
30. whoa thar...'splain me....
...are you saying that the SCOTUS can look at the torture bill, draw a blue line through it and tell Bush "We're sorry, but this one's not going to fly."?

...a gleam of hope for the first time since our do-nothing Spineless Wonders caved on this one...
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Lasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-05-06 10:15 AM
Response to Original message
26. I'm kinda numb from that too.
Torture, even being discussed on the floor of the US Senate!

But I, for one, have forgotten nothing. Just one shocking revelation as of late is the news of George Tenant's urgent meeting with Condi. He forcefully warned her of the impending Al Qaeda threat that struck New York and the Pentagon just 2 months later.

We need to ride the Foley scandal for all it's worth. Arguably, that will give us control of both the House and Senate. The Torture Bill will be declared unconstitutional by the SCOTUS. As a result Junior will loose his get out of jail free card that it provides and he won't stand a snowball's chance of getting anything like that through Congress again, even if we control only one house.

Then it's time to release the hounds. Without cover of the then-defunct Torture Bill, Junior will be back to square one. And he won't know how to act without his lapdog Congress to cover for him. He's been used to that kind of advantage all his life and won't be able to learn any new tricks now.

But torture! A friend came to visit yesterday and I told him we weren't the good guys any more. He agreed.
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Philosoraptor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-05-06 10:53 AM
Response to Original message
28. it ain't lost on me, i'm focused
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cassiepriam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-05-06 05:38 PM
Response to Original message
31. It is OK to murder, rape, torture Iraqi children.
But Americans get up in arms if 17 year old white kids get a naughty email
from a congressman.

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